if these things are not regulated appropriately and we don't understand they have to be regulated, again, it doesn't matter who owns them and the issue is who really has responsibility for making sure they are responsible. >> absolutely. these things could be regulated and they don't have to be shut down. lastly the free-speech aspect. there are a lot of people who wouldn't have a voice other than these plat dorms and what would do to free speech to shut it down? >> it would hurt it, obviously. again, free speech, when we usually talk about the first amendment, we talk about the government. it is rights against the government. but with regard to these huge mega platforms and their monopoly, the people do need access. >> we are out of time and i am running into the next show so i

will stop you and we appreciate you. the next show starts now. tonight. >> i don't care, andrew jackson or nobody else. nobody has been treated like trump's in terms of badly. >> the criminal defendant candidate appears before the judge he appointed. >> the fact she is holding this hearing is the facilitation of the ignore tactics we have seen from him along in this case and others. >> what today's hearing means for these trials. >> the only things that his arguments merritt was an eye roll and a swift denial. >> how a maga delusion is officially taking hold of the rnc. >> people say vote early and ballot harvest in all of this. no. you lose your country. >> is republicans keep threatening reproductive rights across the country, a historic show of support for women in the form of the planned

parenthood visit. >> when we talk about a clinic such as this, it is absolutely about healthcare and reproductive health care. >> all in starts right now. good evening and from new york i am chris hayes. donald trump spent the afternoon where he spends many this time in a procedural hearing in florida is one of the several cases against him specifically where they accused him of stealing highly classified government secrets and then many times willfully obstructing justice by hiding the stolen documents from the government and repeatedly lying about it. and i will admit this case has receded a little bit from public memory and in large part because i think of the glacial pace at which it is moving thanks to one judge. she was plucked from obscurity by donald trump and elevated her to a lifetime appointment

on the federal bench when she was 39. she was confirmed in the senate in that brief lame duck session after trump lost the election and she is now the one presiding over the documents case and she has done her best to slow the speed down to a crawl but it is worth keeping the details in this indictment front of mind because they are truly damning and will -- every time i go back to them i say, oh my word. one key witness came forward this week to circumvent the delay tactics of the judge and share what he knows directly with the american people ahead of the election. brian butler is a multi-decade employee of mar lago and said he unwittingly helped trump's codefendant move boxes of classified documents to the ex- presidents plane on the same day that trump was supposed to meet with federal prosecutors about those documents at mar lago.

-- mar-a-lago. >> those were the boxes in the indictment, the white bankers boxes and that is what i remember loading. >> did you have any idea at the time that there was potentially national security secrets in those boxes? >> no clue. we were taking them out of the escalade and piling them up and i remember they were stacked on top of each other and we lifted them up. >> again, trump is meeting at mar-a-lago with the fbi about the documents they say he has as butler and he are loading said documents onto a plane. butler also recounted trump's attempt to cover up the crimes in the form of a conversation with another ally at mar-a- lago. >> i remembered him saying that walt is coming tomorrow and, cool, that is great and i said, okay. but it wasn't until the following day when we were out walking and he said by the way it is a secret and don't tell anybody he is coming. and why? >> well, he needs me to find something out before he gets

here. what is that? how long the camera footage is saved at mar lago -- mar-a- lago. and i say that is odd and why do you need that. his response was, i think they're looking for somebody that was there. i think the american people have the right to know the facts that this isn't a witchhunt. >> that claim from the ex- president is what he effectively his lawyers argued in court today and they try to get the case dismissed this afternoon using some tortured legal logic including the law was unconstitutionally vague and judge cannon ultimately rejected that argument choosing instead to basically kick the question down the road and not really resolve it. but in some senses that is beside the point as we hammer day after day on this program and the maine goal of trump is to run down the clock and the judge didn't give any updates today on when she might actually bring this case to trial. and that is the crux of the

whole issue. donald trump is facing serious legal jeopardy in both indictments federally are incredibly damning but even with access from money from small donors and now possibly the national committee, the legal bills will pile on. even with the best representation available, the ex-president the best of that was never seeking an acquittal by a jury of his peers and the evidence against him is too strong and his best strategy was to simply find ways to delay the cases against him until november when he could potentially get elected president and then as president at least in regards to the federal cases order his own justice department to abandon the pending cases against him. that seemed like a wild strategy play. but it looks like he honestly may get away with it. look. often times delays happen in the judicial system even when judges are acting in good faith and we saw an example today when the manhattan district attorney's office moved to delay its case against trump

for procedural reasons and that is the case for the bribe of the star at of the 2016 election to keep quiet about an affair he apparently had while his wife was taking care of her newborn son and this money was paid weeks before the election and it was supposed to go to trial in a matter of days but both sides are ready to push that back in response to tens of thousands of pages of discovery material recently made available by federal prosecutors to new york prosecutors. the office has asked for a one- month delay in trump's lawyers have predict ugly asked for three months and we have seen a delay in the fulton county, georgia racketeering case over potentially inappropriate relation she had with one of her prosecutors and whether it constitutes a conflict of interest and those are ideal but they are different in scope and motivation from the other more weapon eyes to delay tactics we saw in the federal cases. they were aided by members of the judiciary who, by the way

donald trump handpicked for their jobs. the supreme court of the united states with its extreme six- member mega majority, three of whom owe their lifetime appointment to the ex-president and they have bent over backwards to appease his desire for delay by sitting on his appeal for weeks before scheduling oral arguments for literally the latest day they are allowed. it is all part of what at least looks like a flagrant bread to push his trial -- a bid to push his trial until after the election. and here in florida at the luck of the draw randomly she was assigned to this documents case and every moment where she can choose between expedition or delay she is always chosen delay. and now is when the rubber hits the road because she will have to set up a real trial date and see if she chooses the most obvious favor for the guy who gave her the job she holds an could promote her more in the

future and delaying his trial until after the election. and it is possible. that is why one conservative commentator gloated that trump hit the inside straight he needed to avoid legal accountability before the election and he was dealt a good hand. it looks like it was only because he hired the dealers. and lisa rubin is a former litigator and correspondent. in the federal prosecutor and serves as a counsel for the january 6 committee joining me now. let's talk about the goings-on in florida today. and donald trump in the room, which, by the way there is a part of me that he is there as a reminder of who appointed her and he also showed up in new york. >> it is double-sided. trump shows up to remind the people who favor him and he shows up to try to intimidate the people who don't and when he discovered it didn't work with those people, he stopped showing up as frequently so

with judge cannon, this isn't the first time he showed up and he will continue to do so because it reminds her what may await her if she continues playing his cards right. >> the hearing was on motions to dismiss if i am not mistaken, one of which was essentially the charges were unconstitutionally vague? >> a defendant has a constitutional right to understand what he is being charged with and if a statute is vague, meaning what conduct you can't tell is prohibited it is unconstitutional and what today was about was the espionage act was unconstitutional because it was too vague and that is frivolous and that is one the judge could've taken in the papers and read the briefing and decided it without a hearing like she did today but judges do that all the time and frankly, what she should have done here. so her coming out and issuing disorder right after, and dismissing that, which was an

order ready to go, i think it further shows she could've decided this immediately that it moved along quickly. >> this is an example of taking a longer route and it's like you have this program pulled up and you can take the quick route or take the longer route and she took the longer one. >> i want to illustrate how scenic it is because she didn't just say i am dismissing the motion but dismissing it without prejudice, which means they can't take an appeal from it. she is kicking the can further down the road. she isn't saying the question about unconstitutional vagueness of the espionage act is resolved but she says i still have questions about this better resolved at a later proceeding. so your motion is denied without prejudice and you can renew it at a later date. >> that keeps the door open for more delay. >> correct. >> it allows him to do it later. >> to be clear, the espionage act was passed under woodrow

wilson in the run-up to world war i and it's a deeply flawed piece of legislation and i would say bad piece in many respects. but the reason i say this is because unlike a claim to presidential immunity and a fairly novel circumstance, the unconstitutionality of this is not some novel new argument you have to wrestle with. >> people have been charged and sentenced under the willful prong of that for decades. >> over and over again. >> she doesn't have the authority here to be making a new law and this isn't the supreme court. she is bound by a higher precedent. the message that she would come out with an entire new framework is unlikely for that reason as well. >> i do try to keep checking myself. i don't want to fall into this pattern that i think trump and others do, which is to view all

judicial appointments is flatly partisan and all will the power and no such thing as law. it's a dangerous way to view things. it could be accurate. we will see. i guess it does seem to me that every time i looked at this a fair-minded observer would say at the very minimum she is not moving this quickly or seem to be stirred by any urgency. >> even the way she structured the motion to dismiss in the first place show she has an interest or at least a willingness to elongate these proceedings. trump and this has seven motions and some judges could say put in a consolidated brief with maybe 50 pages and she has 725 page motions and responses from the government and replies and this is the first hearing on his motions to dismiss and she heard two of them today so we have five more to go and some of them implicate classified information. this will go on for some time.

and she still hasn't set a trial date and you can take it bunch of different views on why that is. maybe she hopes the supreme court will while she is moving through these other motions to dismiss save her and enter an opinion on presidential immunity that allows trump to continue to advance that defense of this case. but a more charitable view as she understands her case is the least trial ready and she doesn't want to accept a summer trial of this case if it essentially means that the judge in the event the supreme court goes the other way loses the opportunity to try that case. she would be very soundly criticized for that. >> let's talk about new york. again, all this stuff about the clock is so weird because we get this window into the judicial system that is always moving very slowly. that is just the way the american judicial system works particularly with people with a lot of money and can afford it. today we got word that there will be an up to 30 day delay that with -- was agreed to by alvin bragg's office because of

a late turnover and this is interesting as a former federal prosecutor. the's attorney's office gave the materials three days ago and they have to go through it now? >> the thing to recognize is that different offices operate independently of each other. >> clearly. this is an example. what happens is when an office like the das gets information from an external agency or prosecutor's office, he has obligations under the law whether it is 3-d or impeachment evidence and discovery obligations even if he gets it the day of the trial and it doesn't exalt him of responsibilities. whatever decisions were made by the federal prosecutors, which, frankly would be surprising and shocking if they were the facts, if they basically waited on a document dump on him and maybe gave it to the former presidents team in a federal case separately, i think it is bad luck for the department of justice and i think alvin bragg

is not the one at fault. >> and in alvin bragg's defense, one of thing trump says about all these cases is it represents collusion between the biden justice department and the d8 whether it be alvin bragg or the attorney general of new york. >> it's all part of some grand conspiracy. >> by the way if the biden justice department were colluding with da alvin bragg what happened today would never have happened. if alvin bragg saw this filing today, look, i asked the u.s. attorney's office for this stephanie gave me a subset of that and trump waited until january and issued a subpoena of his own and, lo and behold, very recently gets that and it's hundreds of thousands of pages of documents including some of the same stuff i asked for and didn't get and i can't explain it because i can't i will agree to a 30 day adjournment. >> for some of those details trump had requested a 90 day delay in the trial at the us

attorney's office. and provided discovery and brag said it was largely irrelevant except for 172 pages of witness statements and the district attorney said the u.s. attorney's office on wednesday produced about 31,000 pages of additional records to both prosecutors and trump's lawyers and indicated additional production would follow by next week. that is wild, dumping thousands of documents coming after trump issued that mid-january for additional materials for federal prosecutors. that will delay this trial it looks like and we will get the month delay. >> we will see but i think the judge will agree. >> the trial nonetheless will probably go forward? >> i think so. i think the judge is really the one not playing games and he is kept tight control over his courtroom and calendar and the other judges well but she lost some of her ability to but i don't inc. she will push this three months

out. >> from a cynical point of view but in the case of the judge this has wound away until it got to a court with their own people on. and then things slowed down and that is what has happened and you go until you find the judge you appointed and then things slowed down. >> i think judge cannon is sort of brilliant in a nonpositive way by denying the motion today without prejudice because she knows the 11th circuit is watching her and to your point about not casting people as trump or obama judges she has been smacked down twice by the 11th circuit in the last time they said her special master process was unwarranted was by a three-judge panel consisting of three judges all appointed by republican presidents and including former president trump. i take that with some confidence and the rule of law with confidence in judges no matter who they are appointed

by but judge cannon is not inspiring my confidence right now. >> thank you both. coming up , why bother winning the presidency when you can just steal it. and what this means for the future of our democracy. that is next. is next business from the ground up. people were showing up left and right. and so did our business needs the chase ink card made it easy. when you go for something big like this, your kids see that. and they believe they can do the same. earn unlimited 1.5% cash back on every purchase with the chase ink business unlimited card. make more of what's yours. feeling sluggish or weighed down? with the chase ink business unlimited card. could be a sign that your digestive system isn't at its best. but a little metamucil everyday can help. metamucil's psyllium fiber gels to trap and remove the waste that weighs you down... so you can lighten every day the metamucil way.

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than anyone else. get started for $49.99 a month plus ask how to get up to an $800 prepaid card. don't wait- call today. on one level you can say donald trump's relationship to democracy and self governments

-- governance seems straightforward but he doesn't care. he doesn't like to lose. he lost a democratic election and is desperate for criminal immunity and its instrument for him. no democracy, no losing, problem. i think it is deeper than that and deeper than an instrumental whatever works best. i think opposing democracy isn't just convenient but a fixed strongly held ideological beliefs and you can see that all the time and this constant praise of dictators. >> it's good to have a good relationship with putin and the president of china and kim jong- un i had a good relationship and he is a tough smart guy. >> healy says that and he said that about the turkish president and he said he likes a good man who is tough with his people and he prefers dictatorship is a fixed principle and not just on day one but again that is very rhetorical. here is an incredible example of this in practice. just look at what is going on at the republican national committee where trump is a

presumptive nominee is purging the party and remaking it in his image. now, actual republican election experts have been at odd -- odds with him for years because he tells republican and trump voters that mail and -- voting mail and -- is rigged. and the chairwoman was confronted with the real world effect of trump's election lies. >> switching the vote and going there in crazy numbers and they should have won but then they still lose. >> we didn't see that in the audit. that evidence i have not seen. we will wait and see on that. >> how are we going to spend money and work when it's already decided? >> it isn't decided. this is the key. it isn't decided.

if you lose your face and you don't vote and people walk away, that will decided. >> it isn't rigged. i promise you. please vote. remember democrats swept those seats? they realize they had this problem with a bizarre vendetta trump had specifically against mail-in voting but that in particular was hurting them because as ms. mcdaniel tried to tell them mail-in is a useful way to bank votes and you never know what will happen on election day and you don't want to wait until the last second and then, i don't know when the weather is bad ever there is a blizzard or an emergency but voters get out of work before they can't get out before the polls close. this is crucial and is a major party organizer, if you bag those early and the people you know you vote for or voting for you you have the smaller voter universe to deal with on election day to contact them and turn it out and it's an efficient way to campaign

democratically and it smart and good tactics. it isn't a partisan issue at all which is why after the 2020 debacle the rnc launched the bank your vote campaign to, as they put it, get our boaters to vote by mail and ballot harvest were permitted. all things the last republican president said were corrupt and fraudulent. but now donald trump could be the next public and present in -- president -- republican president. this is aimed at getting republicans early it will shift to a grow the vote program focusing on expanding the outright outreach. voter outreach is good i guess. but also. trump's top campaign aide also installed a former reporter and a 2020 election denier as senior counsel for election

integrity. so to recap, instead of making republicans comfortable with early voting and killing that idea, this appears to be going all in on election integrity which means suing election officials and challenging access and the new institutional ethos is less party of lincoln and more my pillow guy. >> people say let's be like the democrats and vote early and ballot harvest in all this. no. you lose your country. that is where all the crime is is in the early voting and stuff. >> no. you are wrong. but that is what donald trump wants. he was complaining about it being rigged before he lost it in 2020. and here is the party he now runs making an affirmative choice backed up by money and manpower and logistics, a choice to put their efforts into trying to suppress the

vote election integrity and stop people from voting and putting up hurdles rather than the effort they had in place to just straightforwardly win more votes. or make it easier for your people to vote. that is what they are committed to. donald trump hates the idea of people choosing their leader. he prefers it is the leader could choose his people and it's one of his few deeply held core beliefs. core beliefs

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it is becoming apparent that donald trump absolutely crushed joe biden in the election and we learned much about the dominion machine and software that attack a bowl and it monitors of additional votes needed. >> i have never seen that footage before. that is false to be clear and completely untrue and the kind of thing you end up getting sued over. you may remember she was the host turned trump lawyer who falsely certified that the ex- president had handed over all material and following his defeat which turned out to be not true and now the national committee has hired her as the special counsel that woman for election integrity and michelle goldberg is an opinion columnist for the new york times and a former democratic congressman of new york running for the seat held by the republican congressman.

i am struck by this reporting here and again it is like this is really and i can't stress this enough it's not an ideological issue it's like some people make the coffee the night before and some in the morning and it doesn't mean anything but it is such a tell to me that they are shutting it down. >> i think this is something common to a lot of dictators and totalitarian tyrants and that they insist on molding reality to their own presuppositions and we saw this of the first day of donald trump's presidency when he made sean spicer go out and say those were the biggest crowds we ever saw and you remember when donald trump changed the weather because he said it would hit alabama. i think this is similar. donald trump has said over and over again that mail-in voting

is fraudulent and the reason the 2020 election was stolen from him. the rest of the party has to kind of pretend as if that is the case. >> even when it is done to the detriment of their electoral chances. >> there are a lot of things being done and i would imagine gutting the rnc a few months before the election is to the detriment of their chances but all of these republican parties who have built themselves up with trumpets and devolved into infighting and in some cases gone near bankruptcy is also not good. but it is fealty to the leader and trump trumps that. >> you have run races and you do know the importance of voter mobilization and voter turnout and also how useful voting ahead of election day is for a campaign because you have a list and in a lot of cases you kind of know a big bunch of voters and we have to talk to this person and they already voted and that helps. >> these guys are not

interested in legitimately winning elections. they are laying the groundwork to overturn. >> they are putting in the effort now. i want to be like, dude, it is a neck and neck race and you are pulling up and tried to win it the right way. >> that is why it is important there be a democratic house in january of next year to certify a full and fair election and we have no reason to believe it won't be that way other than the nonsense that donald trump and his republican supporters in congress are pushing right now about voting by mail for example. >> one of the crazy things that is happened and i want to get your thoughts from different perspective this is the 20 years i have covered politics, it has basically always been this. democrats have a lot of marginal voters and i don't mean -- i mean they sometimes vote and sometimes they don't and maybe they vote in midterms and not presidential's but they

need turnout. we see a real inversion happen and you look at the polling. the least regular voters are those that biden is most losing to trump and the people the most stalwart are the groups that are holding the most and this is a real inversion. how do you think that changes everybody's calculations? >> i am not sure it is. again, you would think it would create this sort of incentive you talked about earlier to bank your voters early. >> and make it easier to vote and you think it would change the balance. >> i am not sure how much donald trump has internalized the fact that that kind of greater voter turnout could benefit him and i don't think the republican party as a whole has done that. but on the flipside, it's the reason that democrats shouldn't take too much comfort from the fact that they keep doing better than the polls suggest because as it has become a more educated upper-middle-class

party, the most conscientious people, the people who will vote in a special election, those people are often democrats, but you do need people -- the people, for example, who in polls don't know what candidate is responsible for roe v. wade getting overturned, those are the ones that trump needs. >> relatedly, this is a national consequence of a party that knows it can't appeal to a majority of voters based on its policies. imagine if republicans like my appointment -- opponent ran on that legislation that would cut half the cost of prescription drugs of next year nobody would pay more than $2000 annually out-of-pocket. literally, their agenda is to raise the price of prescription drugs for america's seniors and they can't one on things like that. >> he won't. he voted against that and there is a universe or districts

where you did that. >> the fact is they would rather work to overturn an election or make it harder for people to access the ballot then to campaign in a way that actually appeals to the american people because their economic agenda in particular is deeply unpopular and we see that with social issues. this ruling in alabama for ivf is scaring people including my opponent and she relies on overturning roe v. wade and it's the same reason. they can't run away from something they are on the record supporting. >> what i find interesting here is i do think these shifts in the coalition haven't sunken in the different party apparatuses but i do think it speaks to first principles matter and i think democrats as a matter of first principle believe in voter access and i think republicans also don't. you get what you get. thank you both.

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and liver problems can occur. tell your doctor if you have kidney or liver problems, or if you are pregnant, breastfeeding, or considering pregnancy. dovato may harm an unborn baby. most common side effects are headache, nausea, diarrhea, trouble sleeping, tiredness, and anxiety. detect this: you could stay undetectable with fewer medicines. ask your doctor about dovato. if you have been paying attention to polling and primary results, a consistent theme is just how strong of an appeal donald trump has for self identified evangelical christians. the thing about elections is that they are won at the

margins and a deeper look at exit polling shows his performance with them declined during 2016 and 2020 and in 2016 he got 80% of their vote which is 16% voting for hilary clinton and in 2020 trump was only winning 76% of evangelical votes with 24% for biden and that is a sizable shift especially since evangelicals made up slightly more than the 2020 electorate than 2016 and it matters what his margins are with those voters particularly in tightly contested swing states. it doesn't seem like he is trying to win them over which is where this pastor comes in and he is and -- and evangelical pastor and goes to trump rally's and evangelical gatherings and his pitch is simple voting for trump is a requirement to be in line with

your face and i got a chance to sit down and talk to him and the latest episode of my podcast why is this happening. >> we know a lot of people are heartbroken by the kind of experience they are having right now where they have to choose between their faith that is meaningful to them and a political identity that was wedded together and they didn't even know the two came as a package deal and we like to say it's like pulling into a wendy's and you order the number 2 and it comes with the fries. so you said yes to your face and you didn't know it came with a side dish of being a republican for the rest of your life. i remember sitting on my couch on election night in 2016 and feeling like something has changed for me. and i cannot keep moving in those spaces and even though i was in these evangelical spaces, i could no longer say to myself that that community that was necessary for donald trump's success in the campaign was a different community than me and a direct response to that

is trying to seek an answer to that. we spent a lot of time talking to voters and we travel the country and meet with people and pastors and do trainings and we have been all over this question. >> it was a fascinating conversation. that is available now and you can scan that code or search for chris hayes wherever you get your podcast to give it a listen. a listen start your day with nature made. the #1 pharmacist recommended vitamin and supplement brand. ♪everything i do that's for my health is an accomplishment.♪ ♪concerns of getting screened faded away♪ ♪to my astonishment.♪

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today vice president kamala harris toured a planned parenthood facility in saint paul, minnesota. it is believed to be the first time that a sitting vice president or president has visited a clinic that provides abortion services. out of concern about anti-u abortion protests, the vice president's office did not release the location of the clinic in advance of her visit. she spoke after the tour, saying she met with about two dozen healthcare workers who were, quote, providing healthcare in a safe place that gives people dignity. she also said she specifically chose to go to the twin cities because in the aftermath of the dobbs ruling overturning roe v. wade, minnesota has protected abortion rights affirmatively and has been providing care to an influx of patients from out of state as other states around it have restricted access. >> please do understand that when we talk about a clinic such as this it is absolutely about healthcare and reproductive healthcare. so everyone get ready for the

language. uterus. that part of the body needs a lot of medical care from time to time. issues like fibroids. we can handle this. breast cancer screenings. contraceptive care. that is the kind of work that happens here in addition, of course, to abortion care. so to have laws in states that have caused clinics like this to shut down so that women have no access within any reasonable distance of where they live to get this vital care that is necessary to address their health needs and concerns. how dare these elected leaders believe they are in a better position to tell women what they need, to tell women what is in their best interest. we have to be a nation that

trusts women. >> the president and c quo of reproductive freedom for all joins me now. it's nice to have you here in studio. i was, you know, it was striking to me when this visit was announced and then everyone sort of did a little bit of the research and the math to be like, oh, has this happened before. it's never happened before. what does it mean? what's the significance of it happening today? >> you know, you talked about the security issues, right? i worked at planned parenthood in texas when beginning my career, and we would have to walk through throngs of protesters, death threats to our providers. we had doctors wearing bullet proof vests to go to work. this was pre-dobbs, the heart of the most intense fights post-planned parenthood versus casey. so that's why you don't often see folks go. >> that's interesting. >> so i think it's important to remember that -- >> just like the security situation at abortion clinics across the country has been so

bad and so scary. >> remember dr. tiller, right, the death of george tiller. >> a kansas obgyn killed by an anti-abortion extremist. >> right. so that's the context for this. it's important to remember the history here. what kamala harris did today was so critical because post-dobbs, you know, we've done a great job of telling the stories of the patient, kate cox, brittany watt, but we haven't focused on providers. this is the other story and it really, really makes the american public angry. and it's important that she went to a planned parenthood specifically and she raised the alarm. >> one of the things that's so striking about this insane patchwork that the supreme court has visited upon us is that you've now got different rights at the most core level from

state to state, right? >> totally. >> and so there's a number of ramifications of that. one of the things, you know, that the vice president was highlighting today is that north and south dakota, which are next to minnesota, are states that have banned abortion. >> that's right. >> those are states -- but again, we're free citizens in a country where you can move state to state, although there is legislation -- >> maybe not for abortion. maybe if you're not an abortion provider. that's why california, new york, other states are looking into laws. >> the licensing question is -- there is an article yesterday i believe i read, and i guess it's an obvious point i hadn't quite thought of, is that medical education happens across this country in different states. this is a key part of women's reproductive health and a key thing for doctors to learn how to do. >> i've talked to medical students who've said they changed their plans for residency, for training because they can't get the training to

do critical care. >> you literally can't learn how to do this care in 20 however many states. >> that's right. and even before dobbs, and i know you've covered this, there were already impacts on hospitals and teaching hospitals, catholic hospitals prohibiting their students from learning this care. so there's been an all out attack, and it's worse now. >> you are from texas, you just said you got your start there. >> yes, yeah. >> i was struck by this ruling from the fifth circuit. so the fifth circuit is sort of notorious as most sort of like aggressively right wing dmourt the nation, particularly on issues of reproductive choice. a father who has sued to stop federally funded clinics from providing contraception to his teenage daughters. he stipulates they haven't tried to get contraception. he has no stated injury. it's all hypothetical. the fifth circuit has ruled in his favor. >> in part, yes. >> in part. a district court correctly reasoned the father alleges

injuries to his religious exercises and parental rights that have perennially been honored by the american courts. they want to -- >> that's it. >> they want to restrict access to contraception. they keep saying out of one side of their mouth they don't, and then when you look at what conservatives are doing in the courts at how they're proceeding, they do. >> it gets weirder. this comes out of judge matthew's court. these guy -- the mifepristone case is going to the supreme court next week, the medication abortion, backdoor abortion ban. then it goes to the fifth circuit, and the judge who ruled is the same judge as the hobby lobby case, and jonathan mitchell, the attorney, is a notorious trump crony . so it's all of project 2025 in one crazy case. >> they're doing the same thing they did with mifepristone. if viewers remember, you've got amarillo, texas, has one district judge. >> that's right. >> you find a reason to file

there. >> a trumped up organization there. >> you create an organization, then you get the judge. you know what he's going to do. it's like throwing the ball up to a guy who's going to dunk it. this is very easy. put it up there, he grabs it, puts it through, and this is now happening -- this is separate from mifepristone. >> mifepristone the oral arguments are in a couple of week, march 26th, but this is why it's so important to be looking at what the biden xhrgs the senate democrats are doing on judicial nominees and why it's so critical that they're pushing them through and how interconnected that process is with reproductive rights. >> it also highlights the latitude the next administration is going to have on the levers that the federal government without congressional input to expand or restrict the access. >> yes, and the title ten case is always about what the becerra hss did to expand access for kids. so it's all connected, and it's important to remember that's the contrast. >> thank you veryuc