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and it is sock eastern. thanks for joining us. i'm ana cabrera reporting from new york. we begin with the breaking news from capitol hill, where we are waiting the highly anticipated testimony of former special counsel robert hur. he is set to appear in just moments, before the house judiciary committee. and you can see him arriving there at the capitol, moments ago. he's being held, we're told in a holding area before this committee hearing gets going. now, hur is the special counsel who investigated president biden's handling of classified documents. ultimately he chose not to bring charges, but he also questioned the president's mental acuity and fitness in his report. he is expected to defend that today in his opening statement, saying, quote, my task was to determine whether the president retained or disclosed national defense information willfully, meaning knowingly, and with the intent to do something the law forbids. i could not make that determination without assessing the president's state of mind. let's discuss with nbc's julie

tsirkin from capitol hill, justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian, chuck rosenberg, senior fbi official, as well as former democratic congressman max rose of new york and maura gillespie, former adviser to speaker john boehner. walk us through what we can expect here as this hearing gets under way in just moments. >> reporter: yeah, this hearing will go for a better part of the day, about four or five hours, we're told, at least. this is really special counsel robert hur's first time appearing in the public, first time explaining his reasoning behind that nearly 400 page report in which he alleged that president biden had some mental fitness issues, he questioned some of that, but he also said that the president repeatedly told him as described in his opening statement, in the transcript the committee had just obtained, that he did not willfully retain these documents, that he handed these documents over right when he found out about them, that his lawyers did the same as well.

this is one of the points that the democrats on the committee are going to try to draw a stark contrast to. you'll have republicans, of course, the chairman of this committee as jim jordan who is also leading the impeachment inquiry into the president. you're going to have them focus in on part of the report, hur's report, in which he talks about the president's age. one in which the president and his allies have repeatedly refuted and you're going to have democrats trying to draw contrast between the handling of the documents by the president, and the handling of these documents, other documents by former president trump. of course, that is a line that democrats point to in the report here, ana, one in which as they have been filing into this room, jamie raskin, the top democrat, adam schiff, other notable democrats on the committee are saying you're not really going to see much here because, of course, hur ultimately decided not to charge or prosecute the president and certainly republicans will zero in on that. a lot that we can expect in this hearing today. republicans on the committee have also subpoenaed a video of the interview that happened over two days on october 8th and 9th,

that's something they have not yet received and something they're pushing. our colleague mike memoli got a chance to review it ahead of time. now as things get under way behind me, you see a lot of moving pieces. >> this hearing is about to get under way. it will start with both the ranking member and the chairman giving their opening statements before we hear the opening statements from robert hur himself. we plan to bring you those statements live as well as some of the questioning here on msnbc as it gets going. in the meantime, ken, as julie mentioned, lawmakers got their hands on the transcript of president biden's interview with her who is now sitting in the room, in this committee room. we have a copy of this as well. and let's listen in as they just called this hearing to begin.

>> we welcome everyone to today's hearing on the report of special counsel robert hur. the chair now recognizes the gentleman from the state of wisconsin, for purpose of leading us in the pledge. >> please rise. i pledge allegiance to the flag of the united states of america and to the republic >> while they do the pledge, i want to squeeze many more detail into our conversation here. we got our hands on the transcript that president biden and his interview with robert hur, what did we learn? >> i think it is important to point out that the transcript shows that president biden appeared clear headed and coherent during most of that five-hour interview. he cracked jokes, he went into great detail about matters that happened years in the past. when hur apologized for asking about things that happened years ago, he said i'm a young man, it is not a problem. it shows the president was

confused about names, dates and time sequences when asked about his work in 2017, he said his son beau was deployed with the military or dying but he was deployed in 2015. another point that mr. biden wasn't sure what years he was vice president, and his lawyers had to correct him, he also couldn't remember the name of the national archives. and a whole, these lapses are not substantially different than others we have seen mr. biden have during his presidency and seems unlikely to move the needle on the question of whether mr. biden is fit for office, some people believe he's not, many people believe he is. >> thank you. stand by. let's listen in to the opening statements. this is the chairman of the judiciary committee, jim jordan. >> -- he examined 7 million documents including emails, text messages, photographs, videos,

records and other materials from both classified and unclassified sources. but there is more. he not only -- joe biden not only kept information he wasn't allowed to keep, and he not only failed to secure that information properly, he also shared it with people he wasn't allowed to -- who weren't allowed to see it. shared that information with his ghost writer. and, remember, this is information that only individuals with the security clearance are supposed to see. mr. hur told us on page 200 of his report that it is the kind of information that, quote, risks serious damage to america's national security. and what did joe biden have to say about all this? what was his explanation? on page 94 of mr. hur's report, joe biden said he took his notebooks with him after his vice presidency because, quote, they're mine. and every president before me

has done the same exact thing. never mind the fact that he had never been president, when he took this information, but what comes through is joe biden felt he was entitled. you can almost hear it. you can feel the arrogance in the statement. they're mine. but even with all that, mr. hur chose not to bring charges because, quote, mr. biden would likely present himself to a jury as he did in our interview of him, as a sympathetic, well meaning, elderly man with a poor memory. a forgetful old man who mr. hur said did not remember when he was vice president, forgetting on the first day of the interview when his term ended, and forgetting on the second day of the interview when his term as vice president began. mr. hur produced a 345 page report. but in the end, it boils down to a few key facts. joe biden kept classified

information, joe biden failed to properly secure classified information and joe biden shared classified information with people he wasn't supposed to. joe biden broke the law. because he's forgetful old man who would appear sympathetic to a jury, mr. hur chose not to bring charges. mr. hur, we think it is important that you be able to respond to president biden's response to your report, so we're going to play a short video of mr. biden's -- president biden's press conference after your report was released. so if we could play that video. >> let me say a few things before i take questions. as you know, the special counsel released this finding today

about they're looking into my handling of classified documents. >> president biden, something the special counsel said in his report is that one of the reasons you were not charged is because in his description you are a well meaning elderly man with a poor memory. >> i'm well meaning, i'm an elderly man, and i know what the hell i'm doing. i've been president. i put country back on its feet. i don't need his recommendation -- >> how bad is your memory and can you continue as president? >> my memory is so bad, i let you speak. that's -- >> do you believe your memory has gotten worse, mr. president? >> my memory is fine. my memory -- take a look at what i've done since i've become president. none of you thought i could pass anything i got passed. how did that happen? i guess i just i forgot what was going on. >> mr. president -- >> voters have concerns about your age. how are you going to -- do you feel this is going to fuel

further concern about your age? >> only by some of you. >> do you take responsibility for being careless with classified material? >> i take responsibility for not having seen exactly what my staff was doing. as it goes in, things appear in my garage, things that came out of my home, things that were moved not by me, but my staff. by my staff. >> for months when asked about your age, you respond with the words, watch me. then the american people have been watching and they have expressed concerns about your age. >> that is your judgment. that is your judgment. that is not the judgment of the press. they expressed concerns about your mental acuity. they say you're too old. mr. president, in december, you told me that you believe there are many other democrats who could defeat donald trump.

so why does it have to be you now? what is your -- >> i'm the most qualified in this country to be president of the united states and finish the job i started. >> thank you, everyone. thank you very much. >> i did not share classified information. i did not share it. with my ghost writer. i did not. i guarantee you i did not. i did not say that. >> okay. >> mr. president -- >> let me answer your question. the fact of the matter is what i didn't want repeated, i didn't want him to -- i didn't read it to him -- i had written a long memorandum to president obama, why we should not be in afghanistan. and i was -- multiple pages. and so what i was referring to, i said classified, i should have said it was -- it should be private because it was a contact between the president and the vice president as to what was going on. that's what he's referring to. it was not classified

information in that document. that was not classified. >> when you look back at this incident, is there anything you would do differently now? and do you think a special prosecutor should have been appointed in the first place in both of these cases? >> first of all, what i would have done is oversee the transfer of the material that was in my office, in my offices. i should have done that. and if i go back, i didn't have the responsibility to that. that was my staff that was supposed do that and they referenced that in the report. my staff did not do it in the way that -- for example, i didn't know how half the boxes got in my garage. until i found out staff gathered them up, put them together and took them to the garage in my home. all the stuff that was in my

home was in filing cabinets that were either locked or able to be locked. it was in my house. it wasn't out in, like, in mar-a-lago, in a public place where -- and none of it was high classified, didn't have any of that red stuff on it, you know what i mean, around the corners. none of that. i wish i had paid more attention to how the documents were being moved. i thought they were moved to the archives. i thought all was being moved. that's what i thought. what was the last part of your question. >> whether special counsel should have been appointed in this case and in the case of your rival, former president -- >> i think the special counsel should have been appointed and the reason i think a special counsel should have been appointed is because i did not want to be in a position that they looked at trump and look at me, just like they looked at the vice president. and the fact is they made a firm conclusion. i did not break the law. period. thank you all, very, very much.

look, i'm of the view, as you know, that the conduct of the response in the gaza strip has been over the top. i think that, as you know, initially the president of mexico did not want to open up the gate to allow humanitarian material to get in. i talked to him. i convinced him to open the gate. let them make them part of the middle east, and recognize them fully, and return for certain things that the united states would commit to do.

the commitment to -- that we proposed to do related to two items, i'm not going to go into detail. one of them was to deal with the protection against arch enemy to the northwest. the northeast, i should say. second one, by providing ammunition and material for them to defend themselves. coincidentally, that's the time frame when this broke out. i have no proof what i'm about to say, but it is not unreasonable to suspect that the hamas understood what was about to take place, and wanted to break it up before it happened. >> the chair now recognizes the ranking member mr. nadler for an opening statement. >> mr. chairman, i'm glad you have such information, such admiration for the president that you allowed him to take first ten minutes of this hearing.

mr. chairman, house republicans may be desperate to convince america that quite conservative men are on the losing end of a two-tiered justice system. the theory that appeals to the maga crowd that has no base nice reality. but the comments today make me wonder if you read the special counsel's report at all. the hur report does help us draw distinction between president biden and donald trump. just not the one you want. two distinctions actually. first, the report is clear that, quote, at no point did the special counsel find evidence that mr. biden intended or had reason to believe the information would be used to enter the united states with the benefit of foreign nations, closed quote. with respect to the classified documents found in president biden's possession, the decision to decline criminal charges was straightforward, and with respect to the special counsel's investigation, quote, mr. biden turned in classified documents to the national archives and the department of justice consented to the search of multiple locations including his homes,

sat for voluntary interview and then other ways cooperated with the investigation, closed quote. president biden acted responsibly, cooperated completely, and the decision to decline criminal justice -- to decline criminal charges was relatively straightforward. in short to borrow a phrase from the last administration, the hur report represents the complete and total exoneration of president biden. and how does that record contrast with president trump? the documents he retained and the criminal charges pending against him in florida? we know that trump deliberately took large amounts of classified information from the white house. he admitted as much. occasionally pretending he classified this information without telling anyone on his way out the door. we know that he stored that information around mar-a-lago and the craziest of places. spilled across the floor of an unlocked closet, next to the

toilet. we know that he showed classified military plans to an author interviewing him at bedminster. quote, as president i could have declassified it, trump says on an audio recording, now i can't, you know, but this is still a secret. still a secret. closed quote. so much for the declassification theory. we know from the indictment that trump is alleged to have shared these classified documents with many other visitors to mar-a-lago. and we know that despite this outrageous conduct the department of justice gave trump every opportunity to avoid criminal charges. again in the special counsel's words, quote, after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, mr. trump allegedly did the opposite. he not only refused to return the documents for many months, but also obstructed justice by enlisting others to destroy evidence and then to lie about it. closed quote. why did the president charge

former president trump but not president biden? not because of some vast conspiracy, not because of so-called deep state was out to get him, but because former president trump was fundamentally incapable of taking advantage of even one of the many, many chances he was given to avoid those charges. which brings me to the second distinction this report helps us draw between president biden and donald trump. simply put, president biden had the mental acuity to navigate the situation. donald trump did not. much has been made of the special counsel's gratuitous comments about the president biden's age. but let's set the context. after returning every classified document, after opening his open to federal investigators, or simultaneously managing the first hours of the crisis in israel, president biden volunteered to sit through a

five-hour interview with the special counsel. i believe as is his habit, president biden probably committed a verbal slip or two during the interview. i'm not sure any of that matters. when the interview was over, mr. hur completely exonerated president biden. and then there is donald trump. what kind of man bungles not one but dozens of opportunities to avoid criminal liability? what must that say about his mental state? here too the record speaks for itself. >> one of the great memories of all time -- >> james webb. i don't remember the names. i don't remember the name. >> viktor orban, did anyone here of him, the leader of turkey. they didn't report the crowd on january 6th, nikki haley is in charge of security. three years later -- how about that? >> did you have a one on one

with comey. >> they're truly foreign languages. nobody speaks them. >> saudi arabia and russia will -- >> i have a really good memory. >> your next wife was a woman by the name of marla maples. >> right. >> do you recall what years you were married to miss maples? >> um -- >> it is called up here and it is called memory and it is called other things. >> so you don't remember saying you have one of the best memories? >> i don't remember that. >> putin has so little respect for obama, he's starting to throw around the world nuclear. you heard that, nuclear. >> we have to win in november or we won't have pennsylvania, they'll change the name. >> i talked to putin a lot. >> i don't remember that. i don't remember asking him that question. >> i have a good memory and all that stuff. great memory. >> for 20 years they were fighting isis. i defeated isis in four weeks

and we did it with obama, we won an election that everyone said couldn't be won. you know what, you're going to be the first people -- i know my people. you say, all right, trump, you did a good job. get the hell out of here, that's it. >> that is a man who is incapable of avoiding liability, a man unfit for office, and a man who at the very least ought to think twice before accusing others of cognitive decline. thank you for being here today, mr. hur. thank you for illuminating a stark choice for this country in the months to come. i look forward to your testimony and i yield back. >> gentleman yields back. now mr. comer for an opening

statement. >> mr. biden questioned how anyone can be that irresponsible when asked about classified documents in the possession of former president trump. but when president biden said this, he knew that he had stashed classified materials in several unsecured locations for years dating back to his time as vice president and even as a u.s. senator. president biden, the white house and his personal attorneys have not been honest with the american people about his willful retention of classified material and continued to hide information from congress. president biden's attorneys claim to have first discovered classified material on november 2nd, 2022. however, president biden and his lawyers kept it secret from the american people before the midterm elections. cbs news broke the story in january 2023, leaving americans to wonder if the white house had any intention of ever disclosing that president biden hoarded classified documents for years. one of my first acts after

becoming chairman of the house oversight committee was to launch an investigation into president biden's mishandling of classified documents. this investigation started before special counsel hur was named. and what we found is alarming. information obtained through multiple transcribed interviews conducted by the oversight committee contradict the white house and president biden's personal attorneys' narrative about the discovery of classified documents at the penn biden center. in fact, the real timeline began in the spring of 2021, not november 2022, as the white house claimed. additionally the classified documents were not kept in a locked closet as asserted by the white house. we also learned that five white house employees and department of defense employee were involved in the early stages of coordinating the organizing, moving and removing of boxes that were later found to contain classified materials. there is no reasonable explanation as to why so many white house employees were

concerned with retrieving boxes they believed only contained personal documents and materials. why did president biden keep these specific documents in unsecured locations for years? many questions remain. but now the white house is obstructing congress as we seek the truth for the american people. we have subpoenaed dana remus to appear for a deposition to provide information to our committee, but the white house is seeking to block her testimony. we subpoenaed the department of justice for audio recordings and transcripts of president biden's interview with special counsel hur. these were viewed the morning of the state of the union. only this morning, a couple of hours before today's hearing, the department of justice finally provided the transcript of president biden's interview with special counsel hur. the timing is not coincidental. although we had little time to review the transcripts from what we have seen, it is clear that the white house did not want special counsel hur's final report to be released.

the white house refused to be transparent with the american people about the president's mishandling of classified documents. and worse, they have appeared to have lied about the timeline, about who handled the documents and even about the contents of president biden's interview with special counsel hur. that is why today's hearing is important, transparency is what we seek today, and we look forward to special counsel hur's testimony. i yield back. >> gentleman yields back. now mr. raskin for his opening statement. >> thank you. there are three basic points that all americans need to understand about mr. hur's report. number one, the special counsel exonerates president biden. the very first line of the report says it all. quote, we conclude that no criminal charges are warranted in this matter. we would reach the same conclusion even if department of justice policy did not foreclose criminal charges against a sitting president.

second, the report establishes that president biden offered complete and unhesitating cooperation with the special counsel's investigation. the justice department and national archives were proactively notified that the classified documents and they were turned over. the president allowed the fbi to search his homes and sat for a voluntary interview for more than five hours on october 8th and 9th, even as he was busy responding to hamas' vicious terrorist attack in israel. the report thus demonstrates president biden's complete devotion to the rule of law and respect for fair and independent department of justice. president biden did not exert executive privilege or claim absolute immunity for presidential crimes, he did not hide boxes of documents under his bed or in a bathtub, he did not fight investigators, nor did he seek to redact a single word of mr. hur's report. he consented to the search of numerous locations including his homes, and he did everything he

could to cooperate, not obstruct. third, special counsel hur repeatedly emphasizes that president biden's conduct contrasts sharply with that of former president trump. hur observes that unlike president biden, quote, the allegations set forth in the indictment of mr. trump, if proven, would clearly establish not only mr. trump's willfulness, but also serious aggravating factors. he sets forth these points of difference in detail, quote. most notably after given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, trump allegedly did the opposite. according to the indictment, he not only refused to return the documents for months, but he also obstructed justice by enlisting others to destroy evidence and then to lie about it. unquote, he returned only a portion of subpoena documents and deliberately withheld the risk. unlike president biden, trump did not alert the national archives or doj of the

documents, nor did he turn over all the classified materials in his possession. he did not agree to sit down for a voluntary interview with the special counsel, he never consented to a search of his home. on the contrary, trump suggested that his attorney hide or destroy evidence requested by the fbi and the grand jury. trump carefully instructed his aide to move boxes of classified documents to hide them from the fbi. trump tried to delete incriminating security tape footage from mar-a-lago, and he got his attorney to provide a false certification to the fbi saying he had produced all the documents in his possession. he did not. given that this report is so damning in the contrast between biden and trump, it is hard for me to see why our colleagues think that this hearing advances their flailing and embarrassing quest to impeach the president of the united states. what america sees today is evidence of one president who believes in the rule of law and works to protect it and one who

has nothing but contempt for the rule of law and acts solely in pursuit of his own constantly multiplying corrupt schemes. i yield back. >> gentleman yields back. without objection, all other opening statements will be included in the record. we will now introduce today's witness, the honorable robert hur, special counsel in january 2023 to investigate the removal and retention of classified documents discovered at the penn biden center for diplomacy and global engagement. hepreviously served at the department of justice. he clerked for judge alex kaczynski. we welcome our witness and thank him for appearing today. we'll begin by swaerg you in, mr. hur. would you please stand and raise your right hand. do you swear or affirm that the testimony you're about to give is correct?

let the record reflect the witness answered in the affirmative. be seated. we ask you summarize your testimony, mr. hur. you may begin with your opening statement. make sure you got the mic on. thank you. >> thank you, chairman. chairman jordan, ranking member nadler, chairman comer, ranking member raskin, members of the committee, good morning. i'm privileged to have served our country for the majority of my career, a decade and a half, most of those years with the department of justice. i have served as a line prosecutor, a supervisor, the principle associate deputy attorney general, a united states attorney, and a special counsel. i have served in these roles with gratitude, as the son of immigrants to this country, the first member of my family to be born here. my parents grew up in korea, and were young children during the

korean war. my father remembers being hungry and grateful for the food that americans shared with him and his siblings. my mother fled what is now north korea, in her own mother's arms, heading south to safety. my parents eventually met, married, and came to the u.s., seeking a better life for themselves and for their children. their lives and mine would have been very different were it not for this country. no matter the role, no matter the administration, i have applied the same standards and same impartiality, my respect for the justice department and my commitment to this country are why i agree to serve as special counsel when asked by the attorney general. i resolve to do the the work as i have done all the work for the department, fairly, thoroughly and professionally with close attention to the policies and practices that govern department prosecutors. my team and i conducted a

thorough, independent investigation. we identified evidence that the president willfully retained classified materials after the end of his vice presidency when he was a private citizen. this evidence included an audio recorded conversation during which mr. biden told his ghost writer that he had, quote, just found all the classified stuff downstairs, end quote. when mr. biden said this, he was a private citizen, speaking to his ghost writer, in his private rental home in virginia. we also identified other recorded conversations during which mr. biden read classified information aloud to his ghost writer. we did not, however, identify evidence that rose to the level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt. because the evidence fell short of that standard, i declined to recommend criminal charges against mr. biden. the department's regulations required me to write a confidential report explaining my decision to the attorney general. i understood that my explanation about this case had to include

rigorous detailed and thorough analysis. in other words, i needed to show my work. just as i would expect any prosecutor to show his or her work explaining the decision to prosecute or not. the need to show my work was especially strong here. the attorney general had appointed me to investigate the actions of the attorney general's boss, the sitting president of the united states. i knew that for my decision to be credible, i could not simply announce that i recommended no criminal charges and leave it at that. i needed to explain why. my report reflects my best effort to explain why i declined to recommend charging president biden. i analyzed the evidence as prosecutors routinely do, by assessing its strengths and weaknesses. including by anticipating the ways in which the president's defense lawyers might poke holes in the government's case if there were a trial. and seek to persuade jurors that the government could not prove

his guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. there has been a lot of attention paid to language in the report about the president's memory, so let me say a few words about that. my task was to determine whether the president retained or disclosed national defense information willfully. that means knowingly and with the intent to do something the law forbids. i could not make that determination without assessing the president's state of mind. for that reason, i had to consider the president's memory and overall mental state and how a jury likely would perceive his mental and memory state in a criminal trial. these are the types of issues that prosecutors analyze every day. and because these issues were important to my ultimate decision, i had to include a discussion of them in my report to the attorney general. the evidence and the president himself put his memory squarely at issue. we interviewed the president and asked him about his recorded statement. quote, i just found all the

classified stuff downstairs, end quote. he told us that he didn't remember saying that to his ghost writer. he also said he didn't remember finding any classified material in his home after his vice presidency. and he didn't remember anything about how classified documents about afghanistan made their way into his garage. my assessment in the report about the relevance of the president's memory was necessary and accurate and fair. most importantly, what i wrote is what i believe the evidence shows, and what i expect jurors would perceive and believe. i did not sanitize my explanation. nor did i disparage the president unfairly. i explained to the attorney general my decision and the reasons for it, and that's what i was required to do. i took the same approach when i compared the evidence regarding president biden to the department's allegations against former president trump. there too i called it like i saw it. as a prosecutor, i had to

consider relevant precedence and to explain why different facts justify different outcomes. that's what i did in my report. i'm confident the analysis set forth in chapters 11, 12 and 13 of my report provides a author thorough evaluation and explanation of the evidence and i encourage everyone to read it. prosecutors rarely write public reports or testify about their investigations. that is the justice department's long-standing policy and it protects important interests. my team and i prepared the report to the attorney general, with care, and the report stands as the primary source of information. my responses today will be limited to clarifying information for the committee. i will refrain from speculating or commenting on areas outside the scope of the investigation. nor will i discuss what investigative steps we did or did not take beyond what is in the report. in conclusion, i want to express my heart felt thanks to the

attorneys, agents, analysts and professional staff who helped us do our work fairly, thoroughly and independently. i am grateful and privileged to have served with them. i single out particular thanks deputy special counsel mark cripbon, who brought great wisdom, skill and judgment to our task. thank you. i welcome your questions. >> thank you, mr. hur. the chair recognizes the gentleman from north dakota for five minutes. >> thank you. how could that happen. how could anyone be that irresponsible? and i thought what data was in there that could compromise sources, methods and it is totally irresponsible. that is president biden's statement about donald trump and the classified documents. mr. hur, classified documents were found at the penn biden center? >> that's correct. >> they were found in president biden's garage? >> in wilmington, delaware, yes. >> in his basement den? >> also in the same home, yes. >> and his main floor office?

>> correct. >> and third floor den? >> correct. >> at the university of delaware? >> correct. >> and at the biden institute? >> correct. >> all right. and the elements of the crime for this -- we get into all of this, but the elements of the crime are pretty simple, right? the president -- president biden had unauthorized possession of a document writing or note. that's correct? >> correct. >> and that the document writing or note related to national defense. >> correct. >> and that the defendant, we may talk about the willfully part here in a second, retained the document, writing or note and failed to deliver it to an employee or officer entitled to receive it. >> correct. there is a willfulness intent element as you say. >> those are the elements of the crime? >> including the intent element, yes. >> and there are two different quotes where he told his ghost writer, this is in your report, in a matter of -- this is february 16th, 2017, that he had just found all this classified stuff downstairs. >> he did make that statement, that was captured on an audio

recording. >> on april 10th, 2017, biden read aloud a classified passage related to a 2015 meeting in the situation room. >> that is in the report, yes. >> these are national security documents, afghanistan has been mentioned, a whole bunch of those things, right? >> correct. >> at one point in time his personal attorneys in the doj attorneys argued about notes, taking, all the different things and compared it to reagan. >> i'm sorry, could you repeat that? >> president biden's attorneys, personal attorneys, talked about the notes and why they didn't account for the presidential records act, but you found that argument in your report it seems a little persuasive but you said, no, the executive order trumps, right? >> we did set forth an analysis of the governing law and ultimately concluded that the executive order 13526 does apply and did govern former vice president biden at the time. >> you have audio recording from his ghost writer where the president acknowledges that the

information he has is classified and he's sharing with his ghost writer? >> we have an audio recording capturing a statement from mr. biden saying to his ghost writer in february of 2017, quote, i just found all the classified stuff downstairs, end quote. >> and then again, reciting passages from a meeting in the situation room? >> yes. >> and those in president biden's own words? >> correct. >> so he's -- the ghost writer has no classified -- he has no clearance, no classified clearance to anything, correct? >> that is our understanding that he was not authorized to receive classified information. >> so, the elements are possessed documents, the documents related to national defense, and willfully retained those documents and in this case shared them with somebody who was not allowed to receive them. >> there are different subsections of 18 u.s. 793, one section relates to the willful

retention and the other -- >> the willful retention, we have 50-year career of a person who has not been very great at dealing with classified documents throughout even prior to his time as vice president, when he was in the u.s. senate, right? >> we do address each set of those documents in the report, congressman. >> so, the difference -- i think this is really important, because the difference is it appears just from reading the report, we heard all about exonerated and all those different things, it appears from the report he met every actual element of the crime. so i want to talk about the department principles on federal prosecution. that actually has nothing to do with the underlying elements, correct? it is whether or not you can prove this at trial. >> under the department's justice manual and the principles of federal prosecution, a prosecutor has to assess the evidence and determine whether in his or her judgment the likely -- the probable outcome will be a conviction at trial. >> so, whether or not you meet

the elements of the crime, which i think is clear that he does, the second part of this is this, you could have just said we don't prosecute sitting presidents, but you did not. you entered this. that doesn't have anything to do with the actual elements of the crime. that has to do with getting a conviction at trial, correct? >> well, congressman, part and parcel of a prosecutor's judgment as to whether or not a conviction is the probable outcome at trial is assessing how the evidence identified during the investigation lines up with the elements and what proof can be offered to a jury during a trial. >> sure. but his well meaning elderly old man has nothing to do with the underlying elements of the crime. >> well, it certainly has -- >> presentation to the jury. >> it has something -- >> i yield back. >> the witness can respond. >> it has something do with how the jury perceives and receives and considers and makes conclusions based on evidence at trial, congressman.

>> the time of the gentleman expires. mr. nadler? >> thank you, mr. chairman. mr. hur, in your written testimony, you say you found some evidence that the president may have willfully retained classified materials at the end of his vice presidency, correct? >> correct. >> but ultimately you concluded you could not prove that charge in the court of law. you did not identify evidence that rose to level of proof beyond a reasonable doubt, correct? >> that was my judgment. >> you've been a prosecutor for a long time, mr. hur. would you agree there is no such thing as being a little bit charged for a crime, you're either charged or not, correct? >> could you repeat the question, congressman? >> would you agree there is no such thing as being a little bit charged for a crime, you're either charged or you're not charged, correct? >> yes, it is binary. >> thank you. just to be clear, because so many people have taken your words out of context, president biden could not be charged with a crime because even after your thorough investigation, you

could not find sufficient evidence to charge him, correct? >> my conclusion was based on my evaluation of the evidence -- >> don't filibuster, correct? >> my ultimate conclusion was that criminal charges were not warranted. >> correct. now, let's talk about -- i have limited time, so please, when i say correct, or not correct, just answer the question. let's talk about why in sharp contrast to president biden president trump faces 40 charges related to the unlawful retention of highly classified documents. that is, of course, apart from the additional counts saying he encited a rebellion and lied about his actions. >> there was a voluntary

disclosure by the president's counsel related to authorities with classified documents. >> let's contrast this with president trump. are you aware the fbi learned trump was in possession of classified material after the national archives discovered them? >> congressman, i am not familiar with the facts relating to former president trump. i'm prepared to comment on them to the extent that i addressed them in the report. >> you write that president biden, quote, would not have handed the government classified documents from his own home on a silver platter if he had willfully retained those documents for years, closed quote. in other words, part of understanding president biden's intent was that he quickly and voluntarily returned those documents to the government. correct? >> that was a factor in our analysis, yes. >> thank you. by way of contrast to the best of your knowledge, why did the department of justice seek a warrant to search mar-a-lago? >> congressman, i'm not familiar with those deliberations. that is a matter i had no -- >> it was because they were

concerned that trump lied about possession of the documents and might conceal or destroy them. special counsel smith found that president trump obstructed his investigation by falsely representing to the fbi and grand jury that trump did not have the documents that were called for in the subpoena. do you believe that president biden lied to you? >> i do address in my report one response that president gave to a question we posed to him that we deemed to be not credible. >> was it clear he didn't lie? >> i'm sorry, congressman. >> the report is clear that he didn't lie or that he caused his staff to lie and didn't cause his staff to lie. your report is clear on that. you agree that causing someone to lie to the fbi is a classic example of obstruction of justice. >> it is an example, yes. >> thank you. trump instructed the smith investigation by directing one of his employees to move boxes of documents to conceal them from trump's attorney from the

fbi and from the grand jury. at any point in your investigation, did you find that president biden directed his staff to conceal documents from you or anyone else? >> we did not reach that conclusion. >> okay. you would agree hiding documents is a classic example of obstructing investigation? >> it is an example. >> thank you. donald trump, do you agree attempting to delete video footage in this manner is plainly an attempt to obstruct an investigation? >> i don't want to characterize the evidence in the case against -- >> if that happened, would you agree that deleting video footage is an attempt to obstruct an investigation? >> it is the type of evidence that prosecutors would consider -- >> to sum up, donald trump is charged with willfully retaining classified documents and conspireing to conceal those documents. and he's facing additional charges for lying to investigators. isn't that correct?

>> those are allegations that are in a pending -- >> the reason why president biden is not facing a single charge, mr. hur, is not because you went easy on him, but because after reviewing 7 million documents and interviewing nearly 150 witnesses including the president himself, you could not prove that he had committed a crime. i yield back. >> gentleman yields back. the gentleman from california is recognized. >> thank you, mr. hur. i want to get this straight. is it now okay if i take home top secret documents, store them in my garage and read portions of them to friends or i take ho secret documents, store them in my garage and read portions of them to friends or associates? >> congressman, i wouldn't recommend it, but i don't want to entertain any hypotheticals -- >> i can do that under this new doctrine? >> i wouldn't recommend you do

that? >> you essentially said so in your report, and certainly it would be exsculpt tory if i told you, hey, i am getting old and don't remember stuff the way i used to. >> congressman, i am not here to get into hypotheticals. i am here to talk about the facts -- >> it's not a hypothetical. it's the issue at hand. i believe your decision to not prosecute biden for the same offense is consistent with that press department, but the problem is that precedent changed with the administration's decision to prosecute donald trump, and the irony is that as president, trump had full discretion over handling classified material and full discretion in deciding which records to retain, and as a senator or vice president, joe

biden didn't have that and now we get to the glaring double standard. i think it would be toxic to the rule of law on its face if it was two ordinary citizens, but the fact that the only person being prosecuted for this offense is the president's political opponent, and that makes it an unprecedented assault on our democracy. this is the worst we could expect from a banana republic. i wonder how you square this? >> congressman, i do address, as i was required to as a prosecutor, and i set forth my explanation in comparison of the precedents in my report and i am not here to comment further beyond my report. >> you said, for example, there was no evidence beyond reasonable doubt. well, you got the fact that he had classified material in his possession and control and multiple settings for multiple years, and he told others he was

aware of this and he shared that material with others. the mind boggles as what beyond reasonable doubt would actually mean. >> well, as i set forth at length in my explanation and chapters 11 and 12 in the report, my assessment was if presented at trial alongside potential defense arguments would not result -- >> that's one of the points you make, biden would be a sympathetic figure with a poor memory, but how does that bear on anybody's guilt or innocence? isn't that for a jury to decide after guilt or innocence is determined? here's the problem, donald trump is being prosecuted for the same act you documented joe biden committed? >> you said isn't that a question for a jury, and it most

certainly is -- >> my question is does that bear on the guilt or innocence of an individual? >> it bears on how a jury will perceive and receive and make -- >> the answer to my earlier question is correct, all i have to do when i am caught taking home classified materials is say, i'm sorry, mr. hur, i am old and my memory is not so great. >> congressman -- >> this is what you established and it's frightening. >> i had a particular task and make a judgment in particular with one set of evidence. that's what i did. >> here's the fine point of the matter. the foundation of our justice system is equal justice under law. that's what gives the law its respect and legitimacy. without it the law is devoid of any moral authority. justice is depicted as

blindfolded for this reason. it doesn't matter who comes before her, all are treated equally. you destroy this foundation and the rule of law becomes a sick mockery, a weapon to wield against political rivals and a tool of desperatism, and i am desperately afraid that this decision of the department of justice now crossed a very bright line. i yield back. >> the gentlemen yields back. >> could i have consent to introduce the state of the union into the hearing? >> without objection, it will be introduced. >> a nuanced portrait, and the president doesn't come across as

absentminded -- >> without objection. >> thank you. >> thank you, mr. chairman, and thank you mr. hur for being here today. i found your report very interesting, and i learned some things about it, the law and the precedence. there are clear differences between the cases of precedences set by reagan, trump and biden. now, it was widely known that president reagan kept diaries from his presidency that included classified information, and what i didn't know and learned from your report is the department of justice, quote, repeatedly described the diaries in public court filings as mr. reagan's personal records, unquote, and no agency every attempted to remove his diaries, and that's on page 195 of your report. very interesting. the investigation found that president biden believed his

notebooks were his personal property, including work and political notes, reflections, to-do lists and more that he was entitled to take home. you found that on page 232. so while much of his notebook was work-related, he still had purely personal subjects like, again, i quote, gut-wrenching entities about the illness and death of his son, and that's on age 82 and 253 of your report. it's clear, based on the reagan precedent, that no criminal charges were warranted in this matter relative to personal notebooks. now, i want to be clear that although the notebooks contain some very personal information, and president biden considered them his personal property, the president allowed your team to seize and review all of the notebooks you found, is that correct? >> that is correct. >> now that is in stark contrast

to ex-president trump's case. he obstructed and diverted all of the investigations. you also interviewed president biden about other classified documents you found outside his notebooks, didn't you? >> yes, congresswoman. >> did the president tell you he believed any documents other than his own handwritten work were his personal property, yes or no? >> we did not hear that from the president during his interview. >> again, it's very different from ex-president trump. ex-president trump said all of the documents marked classified were his personal property. president biden did not consider documents that were produced by other entities with classification markings as his personal records. now, i think since the majority has tried to assert that there's a disparity based on politics and the differences in the

prosecution, it's worth quoting page 11 of the report, which says, and i quote, several material distinctions between mr. trump's case and mr. biden's case are clear. most notably, after being given multiple chances to return classified documents and avoid prosecution, mr. trump allegedly did the opposite. according to the indictment, he not only refused to return the documents for many months, but he also obstructed justice by enlisting others to destroy evidence and to lie about it. that's on page 11, quote, in contrast, mr. biden turned in classified documents to the national archives and the department of justice, consented to the search of multiple locations including his home and sat through a voluntary interview and in other ways cooperated with the investigation. it's clear that these cases are not the same.

frankly, i was surprised to learn that some of the classified documents were actually personal diaries that many executive officials have taken home with them because it was in their own handwriting and what they produced, and based on the department of justice public statements during the reagan administration, it's understandable that a person could believe that their personal diaries that they produced were not to be turned over just as president reagan did not turn them over. i appreciate your report. i appreciate your being here, mr. hur. i would also like to ask mr. chairman, a unanimous request to include in the record a september 11th letter from the special counsel to the president to special counsel hur, and also a letter to