red flags. donald trump second term as a new nbc poll shows why we must all take is dangerous rhetoric

seriously. tim miller, miles taylor, and susan glasser joining me to discuss the man one magazine calls it biggest ager to the world. pause for hostages, new reports of a potential deal to secure the release of hostages held by hamas in exchange for a pause in the fighting. the latest from former nbc news foreign correspondent, martin fletcher. countdown to expulsion. a scathing house ethics reports may finally force the departure of george santos, the serial liar from new york. one of the first lawmakers who tried to hold him accountable, robert garcia, joins me live to discuss what's next. and, snl, at santos's expense. >> this is serious, they're calling for your expulsion. >> girl, expel me. >> that is -- that's not a word. >> girl is a word. >> that's not what i meant.

>> this is the sunday show. >> election 2024 is less than a year away, the matchup seems like it'll be a rematch of 2020. joe biden versus donald trump. the prospect of another trump term, it's implications for america, and democracy, it's already setting off alarms. so much, so the economist has labeled the former president, quote, the biggest danger to the world in 2024. according to the influential london-based magazine, quote, a second trump term would be a watershed in a way the first was not. 's victory would confirm his most destructive instincts about power. his plans would encounter less resistance. and remarkably, his plans, and those of his enablers, are being talked about openly. there was the bombshell report

from the new york times that revealed that trump wants to use the justice department to exact revenge on his political adversaries. the new york times also reported on plans for an extreme immigration crackdown that would include, quote, sweeping rates, giant camps, and mass deportations. according to a new report from axios, trump allies are pre screening the ideologies of thousands. the potential trump administration expands trump's power at every level of the u.s. government. trump is backing up these dangerous plans with violent rhetoric that should alarm anyone who cares about democracy and the rule of law. >> we pledged to you that we will root out the communists, marxist, fascist, and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country. the real threat is not from the radical right. the real threat is from the

radical left. it's growing every day, every single day. the threat from outside forces is far less sinister, dangerous, engraved, in the threat from within. our threat is from within. >> vermin. historians have noted that trump was perry dane adolf hitler. president biden saying the trump speech echoes language you heard him not see germany and the 30s. it isn't the first time. a trump campaign spokesman called the comparison a ridiculous assertion, but that spokesperson also said this about his critics. there are sad, miserable existence will be crushed when president trump returns to the white house. so let there be no doubt. a second trump presidency could spell the end of the american experiment of democracy itself. and yet, a new nbc news poll out today shows that trump is

narrowly ahead of president biden in a hypothetical general election matchup. joining me now, tim miller, msnbc political analyst, writer at large for the -- and author of why we did it. a travelog from the republican road to hell. miles taylor, a former dhs chief of staff, author of blowback, a warning to save democracy from the next trump. susan glass, staff writer at the new yorker, coauthor of the divider. thank you all very much for coming to the sunday show. who was first on the screen? i think it's. tmi want all of you to give me your reaction to the new nbc toll that shows that trump is narrowly ahead of president biden. it's within the margin of error, but in a general election matchup. especially in light of trump's increasingly alarming rhetoric. >> well, jonathan, there is no doubt that it's alarm maine. it's dispiriting to see those numbers. i think it's also important to

put it in context, where a year out, as you see, neither of those candidates is approaching 50%. i think if you look at the polls, analyze the polls, there is a big, maybe not big, but a significant portion of what is holding president biden down and his ballot number as people that are within the democratic coalition. voters of color, younger voters, people that are maybe upset about the inflation, and even what's coming down. or they're upset about actions and gaza from the administration. you would think that once most of those from that group learned about donald trump's plans, and that feels more like an acute threat to them, as we are closer to next year, a lot will come back on board. you hate to make about like that when the stakes are so high. >> yeah. miles, -- >> look, at this point, it's realistic to say, john at, them that it's a coin flip about whether or not donald trump becomes president of the united states again.

that is jarring, it's very worrying. it could, as you say, represent, frankly, the end of the american experiments. the only way those numbers might changes if voters have a very clear idea about what they need. this is what's needed right now. for somebody to paint that picture. i tried to do it in my most recent book. people are trying to do it now. look, donald trump is out there saying who he is going to be, painting that picture. hopefully, when you go [inaudible] in a second trump term, you'll want to use the entire [inaudible] and implemented and extreme view of america that systematically undermines the institutions of our democratic republic. it is as bad as it gets. we've never seen anything like this in american history.

now is the time of choosing. the question, is will the american people wake up? >> suzanne, would love your reaction to these new poll numbers. especially to tim's point. we aren't a year out. >> well, that is right. i look at that 46% number for donald trump, and what that says to me is that republicans are sticking with their heat. 46% is exactly what donald trump received in the 2020 election. not that different from what he received a bit more in the 2016 election. the republican coalition has made a choice to stick with donald trump. notwithstanding his unprecedented effort to overturn the legal results of an american election. all the other things, not including four indictments in the like. the difference is, democrats, and democratic minded independents, are sending a message right now. there are not yet comfortable, they're not yet on board with joe biden in the next year.

so it's really a focus on what can biden do to bring the democratic coalition back? there is a strong argument that there is a ceiling for donald trump. the question is, if the frying of the democratic coalition is such that that ceiling would still be enough to elect donald trump. meanwhile, we're playing russian roulette with democracy. i do think this is an extremely important point. the stakes here could not be higher. >> and you know, to your point, susan, the nbc news poll does say, well biden support has changed throughout the year, albeit within the margin of error, trump has barely budged in the polls. the kind of amplify what you just said. tim, you recently interviewed former trump white house chief strategist steve bannon on showtime's the circus. let's listen. >> a mega lawyer, on your podcast, mike davis. he suggested one of the top priorities for attorney general, fired the deep state executive

branch. a lot -- deport millions of people. then detain people. pardon ever january 6th defendant. what do you think that? >> i think it's fantastic. >> all five? >> so we've all been talking about the potential extreme trump policies. there they are, talking about them so brazenly, so openly. tim, what do you make of the fact that folks have no qualms talking about very extreme, anti-small d democratic rule of law plans that they have for trump's second term. >> i think the main takeaway here is that he's going to have the most radical, most reactionary folks around him. i think that miles can speak to. this last, time there were a lot of people in the administration, there were a lot of other folks as well who are trying to put the bumpers on the bowling lane. that work to, times not others. those bumpers will be off next time. the ban, and mike davis is at

the, world they're going to be the types of people who will be around, and who will be in charge. i think that's alarming. i think they feel very confident about the political standing, to be able to speak like this. i think it'll be one thing for steve bannon is a provocateur, or as a podcast, et cetera, to say the sorts of things, but for people around trump to say, them or advisers to, trump people who are actively working to help them win, it tells you that they feel confident on their political standing, and they're not going to be nemesis, time and limited and scope of these very anti democratic, anti rule of, law efforts to jail enemy, izium create these sprawling deportation efforts that far exceed what he attempted to do last time. >> miles and going to come to you with a question on the other side of the, break before we go to that break, there's a minute left. trump's rhetoric is beyond alarm again. not only did he use the word vermin, a few weeks ago, he

said undocumented immigrants were poisoning the blood of our country. and quote. again, echoing language used by hitler, why should the american people take him literally and seriously when he talks like this? >> jonathan, the dehumanizing rhetoric that donald trump has, which he's done throughout his political career, i remember writing a whole column, calling enemies human scum. you know who else uses this rhetoric? it's not just hitler, it's the worst dictators in history. those are the only people who have democratically elected leaders. you will not find them. it's because it's not democratic. fundamentally, what it is, it's the language of a straw man who is inciting followers to believe that their opponents are subhuman. it is a call to wage violence, it is a call to be able to do whatever you want won't feeding those supporters.

it can lead to disaster. listening to that clip, it was chilling. it was as if i was hearing alive speech from joseph stalin. it was that scary. >> all right, folks, don't go anywhere. we're going to continue this conversation with tim, susan, and miles. miles, what going to talk about the danger of a.i. in the next election. i have a question for you about. that all panel will be back after the break. after the break.

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back with me. so, miles, you've been part of an initiative to get the word out about the dangers of a.i. and our elections. here is an exclusive preview from a public service announcement. everyone watched this. >> it's tuesday, november 5th, 2024. it is election day in america. polls are showing that today will be one of the largest voter turnouts in our nation's history. >> down the street, our kids go to school together.

>> hi, it's reverend jones from the church calling. >> hi, what's going on? >> my sister asked me to reach out. >> hey, care, bear its mom. >> looks like they closed a local polls early. something about the lack of staff. >> your family trying to get a hold of you, man. i guess your father, rodrigo, he's in the hospital. >> if you're late to your, shift your fired. i don't care if you want to vote. >> listen, we need you to stay home. >> are you there? >> dog got out again. >> local white supremacist are targeting voters today. we want to keep you safe. >> miles, what's really chilean, when the ad goes on to show, seemingly, a real president biden say in something like because there have been issues at the, polls they will remain open for the next 48 or 72 hours or something like that, and at the end of the ad, i think there is a disclaimer that says all of those voices

were made via a i. talk about the dangers that a.i. poses in the next election. >> well, jonathan, every single voice in that advertisement was deepfake voice. i think the takeaway here is not necessarily that a.i. is the enemy. the genie is out of the bottle. a.i. is going to be misuse in the 2024 elections, and it will put disinformation on steroids. by the same token, there are solutions. good technological solutions in government departments and agencies that are responsible for protection elections, they lean into using some of these tools for good. lean into using these tools for defenses purposes. my worry is that federal departments and agencies aren't quite there. yet they're not quite ready to use those technologies to go after the people who are misusing them. that is what we need to do. so this ar policylab that was convened by georgetown in the future u.s., they brought

together top technologist and former policy makers to look at that question. one of the examples that we've seen is that these tools are already being deeply misused in other elections. they're kind of offering a preview for us. if you look at elections in argentina, there was, for instance, the other, day a deepfake of one of the leading candidates talking about selling human organs. what happened? it nudged millions of views. so we are going to see these things have a significant impact on public perceptions, about candidates, elections, about whether the polls are open or not. it will create confusion. we can get ahead of it. there are answers. that actually requires leaning into positive uses of the technology. that is one of the things that this policy lab concluded. is that the government needs to really speed up efforts to do that, and do things like this public education campaign to, as one participant, said take the press out about. make sure the american people know that it's going to be difficult, no is going to be

different, because there's going to be a surgeon misinformation and disinformation. by expecting that, to not be so panicked by it. at the end of the day, to verify their sources. sounds really simplistic, but that's a 2024 is going to be all about. the need to verify sources because the disinformation will be rampant. >> susan, i was about to ask, you how do we combat. this are we even prepared for this, especially in a society that prizes free speech and freedom of the press. are we prepared to push back against this in a way that the american public will hear its, and heat, it then understand it? >> i think, i appreciate miles's optimism, that there is a policy solution to this. right, now it strikes me that we've unleashed yet another new technology that has the power to weigh more than those that were already grappling with

quite unsuccessfully in our politics. this is a moment of such division and to have a tool like this, i think, it really threatens our country that can't really afford it right now. i look at the explosion of misinformation, disinformation, in the israel gaza war, for example. which i think exceeds, by an enormous scale, anything that we've seen before. look at how this is acting upon a country here in the u.s. that is already so divided. they think it is accelerating an exasperating the divisions in our society, to be honest. >> tim, i agree with susan, the nation cannot afford, this and one of the things that i think would be very helpful is if republicans, republicans of stature, more to step up in realtime and say, no, donald trump, you can't use language like, that no, donald, trump your plans are anti-small d democratic, on american. no, mr., trump we can't allow

this to, happen in, yet all in hearing from those types of republicans is crickets. >> yeah, jonathan, i'm not going to be able to have one. i don't think that's going to happen. this morning, as you're talking about, this is looking at the senator, mike lee, who is one of the more normal republican senators, i guess. we're judging on a scale these days. he's voting on a single frame of a photo from january six, claiming that, that's very blurry, but what to me looks like of a, pan claiming that it is a federal agents batch. like there's no evidence. it's way too grainy to be able to determine. that there is a senator pushing that out, saint, hey, january six maybe wasn't maga after all. maybe it was the fbi. three years later, he saying. this after all these investigations, of bipartisan investigation, after we've looked at all this footage, all these juries have reviewed the actions of the people who were there at the capitol that, day

impartial juries, and found all these people guilty, still, we have senators advancing that misinformation based on this tiny freeze frame, so if you compare that as potential threats of miles and susan are talking about, from a, i am from foreign actors to might utilize these tools to interfere, it's hard to be optimistic that we're going to see any positive behavior on this. >> well this much is very clear. i am going to keep talking about the dangers to democracy and our country every week, if i have to, to ensure that we go into election 2024 with our eyes wide open to how high the stakes are. tim miller, miles taylor, susan glasser, thank you all very much for coming to the sunday show. next, breaking news. sources tell nbc news that negotiators are close to a deal to pause the fighting between israel and hamas to secure the release of more hostages.

we'll discuss the latest with nbc's former tel aviv bureau chief, martin fletcher. martin fletcher

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this one looks brand new. saves me money? i'm starting to like downy. downy saves loads. breaking news out of the middle east this morning. nbc news has learned that the united states, israel, and hamas are nearing a deal to release some of the hundreds of hostages in exchange for a pause in the fight in. one senior israeli official tells nbc news that as the military pressure increases, the chances of a release of hostages grows, because hamas is desperate for a cease-fire. israel has been reluctant to agree to that as it continues to pound gaza with airstrikes, and the search the remaining hospitals for what they call hidden hamas terrorist cells. a hostage deal is not done yet, we want to emphasize. deputy national security adviser spoke to my colleague on meet the press just a short time ago, and had this to say. >> i believe that we are closer

than we have been in quite some time. maybe closer than we've been since the beginning of this process. we are talking about considerably more than 12, but beyond that, we want to see what this goes. we don't to say anything that would jeopardize completion of the deal which is the most important thing. >> joining me now, martin fletcher, former nbc news bureau chief in tel aviv. mark, thank you so much for coming back to the sunday show. if this deal ends up happening, how much should we trust that hamas will uphold its end of the deal? >> well, israel will certainly make sure that whatever conditions are lay down, they will go by those conditions, that's for sure. they're talking about monitoring from the, air all kinds of different intelligence services. this is a way of monitoring what hamas actually does, but israel will not agree to a hostage deal until it's conditions are met. that's what they're negotiating about. it is true that it is in the final stages of negotiations,

of course, that will be terrific news for the families, and for the whole conflict in the middle east. it would be a sign that things are moving towards some kind of resolution. a first step, a small step. >> could you elaborate know what kinds of conditions israel would be looking for to have met? >> for all i, know they want the release to include women and children right away, and there is an undetermined number of women and children who are still alive, among the hostages. we don't know who is dead and who is alive. israel made a list of all the hostages who are alive, they want to know where they are, and as far as, possible they want to be released for palestinian security prisoners in israeli joe. it's 30 women who are being held on security offenses, and the idea would be for those

palestinian women and children, and women and children hostages. that is the first step. they're talking about up to 50 or 60 added 239. it's clearly just a first up. >> many, including the president of the united states, president biden, in an op-ed in thewaington post today, has argued, they've argued thata cease-fire would only help hamas. they do use this time to regroup, and refortify themselves. does that claim have merit? >> well, israel certainly thinks it has merit, but they're talking with the american president and officials. israel's main concern has always been that whether there's a pause in the fighting, hamas than regroups and become stronger. bear one thing, in mind when we talk about humanitarian pauses for the release of hostages, and in order to bring goods and medicine, and food, and water into gaza, it is just a pause, it's not going to be with the

cola final cease-fire. a cease-fire here has always meant that the end of the fighting. don't forget one, thing the cease-fire now, that was broken on october the, eighth that came from a cease-fire that was agreed between israel and hamas in may 2021. this is after 11 days of fighting. that came after 2018 cease-fire, a 2014 cease-fire, 2012 cease-fire, 2011. there is lots of cease-fires. everyone in the angle broken. israel wants to ensure that the cease-fire, there is, one finally, would not be broken in the future. israel believes the only way to guarantee that is to end hamas this military power. >> another thing that president biden had mentioned in his op-ed in the washington post is that he is calling for a two state solution, saying, quote, it's the only w to ensure the long-term security of both the israeli and palestinian people. at this, point, martin you have covered this region for decades. how realistic is it to have us

to state solution? >> jonathan, is the only game in town, doesn't, it we always talk about a two-state solution, the one state solution, they could raise some kind of federation in which there is an israeli country, a palestinian country, but inside the israeli country are ready, there are 200 million arabs live in. could the 700,000 jewish settlers living on the west bank and east jerusalem somehow be included in a new palestinian state? well the arabs are inside, israel why shouldn't they be inside a palestinian state. there's plenty to discuss, with the two state solution, separate israeli state, several palestinian state, it's the only game in town, as i say, at the moment. in pretty sure that when negotiation begins, and i do believe that at the end of this, fighting two, three, four years from now, there will be renewed peace process under pressure from the united states. they will hopefully be more

original possibilities discuss, because the two state solution has been discussed now for 40, 50 years. >> we will quickly, who then would be the negotiator for the palestinians? does the palestinian authority have any authority to negotiate? >> well that's a great question, that's exactly the issue, who speaks for the palestinians? is that hamas, which is basically we've seen a kind of death cult aimed at killing jews, or is that the palestinian authority in ramallah, which is a much more reasonable security base relationship with the israeli government. on the other, hand doesn't really have much power or authority, even in the west bank. so the palestinians will have to come up with some kind of representative who speaks for all of them, not through the barrel of a gun, but through the ballot box. they need new elections among the palestinians to look to new leadership, which hopefully will be more moderate than hamas. it all the opinion polls at the

moment show that hamas does have slight majority of support of palestinians. there's no clear way forward, who will represent the palestinians and future peace talks with israel. >> martin fletcher, your, honor your bringing experience and expertise to the sunday, show thank you so much for being here. >>, pleasure, thank you john. >> coming, up watch embattled congressman, george santos, cole says here from hell. it just got worse this week. what's next in the push to expel him from congress. i'll speak with congressman robert garcia who led the initial charge for his expulsion, after the break. after the break wake up, gotta go! c'mon, c'mon. -gracie, c'mon. let's go! guys, c'mon! mom, c'mon! mia! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ my favorite color is... because, it's like a family thing! [ engine revving ] ♪ ♪ made it! mom!

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300,000 on botox. >> i didn't get botox, i got botox, which is short for big ole thing of botox. hold, on i gotta take this. hello? >> what are you doing? >> excuse, me i'm on the phone. >> it's martha, stewart hi, martha. all right, see you at friends again. >> that was saturday night live as congressman george santos. the scathing report from the house ethics committee is no joke. it's controversial congressman is accused of using campaign funds for his own personal purposes. republican chairman of the house ethics committee on friday filed a resolution to expel santos from congress. that vote could come as soon as lawmakers return from their thanksgiving break on november 28th. while santos announced that he would seek reelection right after the ethics report was released, he said that he plans to hold a news conference on november 30th saying, quote, i will continue to fight for what i believe him, and i will never

back down. we'll see if he'll still be a sitting member of congress by the. joining me, now congressman robert garcia, member of the house oversight committee, and one of the first to call for santos is to be booted from congress. welcome back. is the sunday show. so, girl, where are we on the ethics for port. d anything shock you? >> i think the report confirms what we've already known. george santos is the biggest foster. he's a, liar he's completely fabricated a story. i think what we do know is the extent to his personal sludge fund for his use. everything from the botox to the pornography on onlyfans, do his shopping trips to fara gambo. luxury vacations he took on his campaign donors dime.

george santos should have the decency, he should resign, by the way, a long time ago. he is a -- he does not belong in congress. he also happens to be a dangerous broad who has access to dangerous information like the rest of us. that's why months, ago we put for the resolution to expel him from congress. nine months, ago republicans all decided to say, george santos, to continue to give him access to information that the members of congress receive an important topics in this country. now, finally, finally republicans are choosing to come on board. welcome to all these new converts, it's time for george santos to go. i feel good that he is no longer going to be a member of congress. >> i was about to, asked do you think this report will be enough to convince republicans to kick san jose to the curb? do you think so? >> how could it not? the report is insane.

this is a person who is essentially creating his own wardrobe of the day based on his campaign donors funds. he is using campaign donors to go on porn sites. you can't make this stuff up. we knew this nine months ago, he had been expelled then, i'm glad the ethics committee had this report. if you decide not to expel him on a resolution i months, ago the alternative, with kevin mccarthy at the, time he said that we will expel, hamilton's ethics report. well this other's report is now done, it's, out there is no excuses left. mike johnson, the speaker, really had a spine, he would stand up in the press conference, denounced george santos, strongly, and tell his membership to vote to expel him. that's what needs to happen. anything shorted that this shameful. we are going to expel george santos next week. we'll have congress. >> i find a curious that he is

scheduled a press conference for november 30th. what could he possibly say on november 30th? >> i'm sure he could say i'm no longer a member, i was expelled yesterday. we are going to expel him before november 30th. i think it's likely the vote will happen, that tuesday or wednesday. he wants to hold a press conference on thursday to announces new reality, show or talk about what he's going to, where when he gets indicted and 23 counts as a felon, or what he plans to do when sitting in prison. that is what's next for us to learn about. but the seriousness is that he has no standard in the house of representatives, which we're gonna hold him accountable to. they should face a court of law and a judge of his peers in a jury. he has 23 incredibly serious counts. this is going to put him in

jail. he can create, he can print surround, hold babies, hold press conferences, buy expensive for ghana shoes, but to be serious here, he is committed serious crimes to defraud people. it is time for us to remove him. i'm glad that americans are finally on board. >> he also dropped thousands of dollars at or as. i'm still trying to figure out what did he buy for 4100 and something dollars. i'm just curious. really quickly -- >> it's not that pink suit. >> no. it is not. one last thing. for any of your fellow members of congress who are still on the fence about whether to expel santos in 15 seconds, what's your mantra to them? >> if you are patriarch america, and you love this country, believing, congress you believe that this congress mean something, that there should be integrity in the office that we hold, that we have no other

choice to expel someone who has absolutely zero respect for the constitution, country, and for standing up to constituents. he is a fraud, a liar, he's fabricated the whole reason why he got elected. there is no choice but unanimous expulsion at the house of representatives, george santos. >> george, santos a man whose life story is literally unbelievable. congressman robert garcia, thank you very much. as, always for coming to the sunday show. >> thanks, jonathan. >> up next, ten of poor about malcolm x, a production about the rights of a civil rights activists makes it to the mat in new york. for decades after premiering. i'll speak with the poll surprise winning composer of the project, anthony davis, after the break. stay with us. stay with us rt failure with unresolved symptoms? it may be time to see the bigger picture. heart failure and seemingly unrelated symptoms like carpal tunnel syndrome, shortness of breath, and irregular heartbeat could mean something more serious,

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muslims don't expect anyone to give our people freedom. we stand up against racism. all black people. together. >> i can't wait to see this. the critically acclaimed opera is bringing in a civil rights icon to one of the world's most prestigious stages. through a series of vignettes from his youth to his assassination, ex, the life and times of malcolm x, explores the legacy of malcolm x with a distinct afrofuturistic twist. this prospect debuted in philadelphia in 1985. nearly four decades after its initial premiere, this show made its debut at new york's metropolitan opera earlier this month. joining me now, the composer of x, the life and times of malcolm x, pulitzer prize winner, anthony davis. mr., davis thank you very much for coming into the sunday show. so, what does it mean to you to

have this project at the mets, nearly four decades after its original debut? >> it means a lot to me. it's been an incredible journey from almost 40 years, to see the opera, after i arrived at the math. this opera, 1986, and just across the mall from the mid. it's great and i'm working with barbaro harris. his conception with bringing the afrofuturist concept into the upper, i think it's been incredible. and i think that presenting x to a new generation. >> how did you go about composing an opera reflecting the full narrative arc of malcolm x's life? >> well, it started with my brother, who was in plain

welcome ox when he was asked sane after the plays. he spoke to me about the idea of doing a music theater project on malcolm because he noticed in the autobiography how many references there were two music. that you could look at the development of african american music from the 1940s to the 1960s as kind of a parallel to the malcolm developments, welcomes political thought. so i could capture the music of the late 40s, the music of ellington, coming from the kind of end of this, the beginning to be bop, all the way to the jazz avant-garde in 1960. with people like john coltrane, or not, coleman's easel taylor. >> you anticipated my next question, and it was going to be about the musical influences him the score. one thing you didn't mention,

indonesian music figures and the soundtrack. talk about that. >> well i was fortunate, i was a student, ucla studied world music at was lynn university. my primary focus was south indian music. i was also able to attends, and go to gamble on music. there were performances of -- witches shadow puppet theater. i was so excited about the rhythmic aspect of the music, what i would call this conception of for them drama, the way rhythm and dramatic action can be tied together, and it's something that influence me in terms of the music that i saw as rhythmic structure is the basis of defining where the drama, where the drama can be created in the piece. >> as we saw in the clip that we saw in the intro, to our

intro, there is the timelessness to malcolm x's life story that makes the upper resonate. especially with younger audiences. what have you learned from the responses that the opera has been receiving? >> well, i think that there is a tremendous, responds especially, as you, said with young people. when we see young welcome, and what he had to go, through you, known the murder of his father, his mother, the descent into madness and her response to her husband's murder. so you see that that kind of captures, it, he says, mom, help me. and it captures a lot of experiences of young african americans. they're saying, you know, you're not intellectual, you should only be doing menial labor, et cetera, et cetera it was very much a part of how, you know, how any child would grow up in the 50s, where you

remember tracking things in school. i think, and then, seen malcolm emerge from that, and the temptations that the street offers, you know, when he's in boston. the eventually, finding his faith in religion. >> can you quickly talk about the afrofuturistic framework of the opera? including the use of a hovering spaceship onstage. >> there is a space shift. when i was first, told about it was crazy. he said, i'll have a spaceship crash into the matt. i said, what? okay. but the spaceship is part of this information. they're using different video technologies. we have sensitive patients who have gathered the information of malcolm story, and these afrofuturistic aliens who come

to the help tell the story. to me, it allows the story to kind of become almost a dreamscape. to, just, in a way where we don't have to, copper isn't really a realistic form anyways. the idea that now taking it out of the real thing, thinking about how we envision malcolm. what mocha means for the future. for what his legacy is. >> and the little bit of time we have, left i find it interesting that we're talking about your opera, ax, at the metropolitan opera. yesterday, at this time yesterday, i was talking with coulman domingo, who was the lead character in the netflix higher ground movie, rustic. it seems that black man from the civil rights era are getting their due more widely in popular culture.

what do you make of this? >> i just saw ruston enough flicks last. night it's a fantastic movie. yeah, we're revisiting that path. so much of that, i mean, this story was kind of on the important role in the march on washington, and it's ironic that we work together a lot. we did music in america. we did this together. so i think that we're all confronting this, trying to bring these stories to light, so that we have a fuller picture of what the civil rights movement was about, and also what it means for us today. >> a full story of the american story. pulitzer prize winner, andrew davis, thank you for coming to the sunday show. we sure to catch acts, the life and times of malcolm x, at the metropolitan opera in new york city. running through december 2nd.

also, in select movie theaters nationwide. mr. davis,, again thank you very much for coming to the sunday show. that will do it for me today. thank you for watching the sunday. joe i'll be back next saturday and sunday at 9 am eastern, remember to follow us on x, instagram, tiktok, using the handle like a part. don't go anywhere. my friend is in for ali velshi. charles, what do you think of this malcolm x operate the math, you're gonna go? >> you cannot talk civil rights and not invite the civil rights attorney to the conversation. i think it's so important. if you consider the conversation we have with this, our store been, told history be, known i think it's interesting and important that the art community, the community performance arts, they're the ones, a storytellers, keeping that narrative alive. i think that's so fantastic and amazing. what thing i appreciate what your interview is that you were talking, they were talking about the notion of the

spaceship crashing into the mets. and afrofuturism. what's new is old, what is old is new again. i thought about parliament, and focus alec. >> yes, parliament. there you go. >> that's absolutely. yet so i have to ask you. are you going to see it? what are we doing? are we gonna do a group msnbc trip to go see x? i'm with it. >> oh i'm going. i won't be able to go until the last performance on december 2nd, but i have to see it. >> listen -- >> i love opera. >> i cannot wait to see. i know that there are some folks in this building who have seen it without us. we'll talk about that later. but, i think it's such an important piece. not only because of the story, but because of the fact that it's going to expose more of us, and when i say, awesome talking about black people, i'm talking about people of color, to be able to see that on the big stage. to be exposed to opera. quite, frankly everyone doesn't necessarily go, but now that

they