h, diarrhea♪ pepto bismol coats and soothes for fast relief when you need it most. hitting the top of the hour. thank you for staying with our special coverage of the fourth indictment against donald trump. i'm chris jansen with andrea mitchell and katy tur, and digging into what fani will is called the criminal enterprise represented by the former president and 18 codefendants across georgia and across the country and arizona and michigan and nevada, new mexico, pennsylvania, wisconsin, and washington, d.c. >> this hour, we will break down the sprawling 98-page indictment and the activity by donald trump and associates beginning the day after the 2020 election, all the way through to september, 2022. and how this case differs from

the criminal indictment we've covered in manhattan, florida, and washington, d.c. >> mr. trump continuing his unrelenting attacks against d.a. fani will is throughout the morning, claiming that this prosecution is the latest, quote, witch hunt against him. mr. trump is also promising a press conference next monday morning, where he is going to release some reports that he says it will improve there was election fraud despite multiple court cases, saying he won the presidency fair and square. and the campaign as with previous indictments have addressed a flurry of fundraising emails to try to turn this latest legal woe to financial gain. garrett haake is here, katie phang, chuck rosenberg, msnbc legal analyst lisa ruben and former fbi general counsel.

chuck rosenberg, power panel, and i will start with you if i can. when i read this social media post by donald trump, he promised a large complex and detailed report by monday, to refute this indictment. is it bound with footnotes and where you could go, i wonder, is his team now scrambling to come up with the report? what do we know about it? >> very little. i mean look, tolkien wrote large complex and detailed volumes too and they were fiction and i can't imagine anything in this report would be anything other than that and the facts that donald trump wants here just don't exist, there were dead people in florida, or georgia, or florida for that matter, voting in the numbers that he would need to make this work, there were young people that weren't out of state people, and there weren't ballots stuffed in machines, i mean if you go back and listen to the hour-long

phone call that donald trump and mark meadows made to the secretary of state here in georgia, which has been kind of reduced on air so many times about finding the 11,000 plus votes needed to win in the state, there is every conspiracy under the sun presented at that time more than two years ago, looking for something that would provide exactly what donald trump describes in that truth social post, evidence that would exonerate him, and at no point in the intervening years has that evidence been produced and i don't anticipate it will be produced on monday. what he's going to present on monday is a huge question mark, but it will not be what he says it is, it simply doesn't exist. >> garrett haake, thank you very much. >> let's talk about the scope of this indictment. i mean 19 people in total. multiple different counts. it goes through emails and text messages, and phone calls, and tweets, things that taken individually don't look like criminal problems but taken as a whole, the prosecution argues is

a criminal organization, furthering a criminal effort to overturn the election. because it is so big, is that risky for d.a. fani willis? >> the answer, i'm going to be a lawyer, yes and no. so the yes is you want to present a clear, clean story that is not too complicated, such as enron, it was complicated and how do you present that to a jury, that's the risk, but as fani willis herself said about bringing a rico charge, is she wants to pren the whole picture to the jury of what happened, you know, and i do think it is the right approach, which is speak up to a jury, you know, you don't have to dumb things down, they should rely on their common sense, so here, this does encapsulate in brief, frankly, everything that

they know that happened. >> do they run the risk though, of a jury or a juror saying, isn't his right to try to investigate stuff, isn't his right to say whatever he wants? why is this criminal? >> yes, so absolutely, it is his right to say whatever he wants publicly, and that goes to the press conference he has, it may be fiction, as garrett said, that's totally fine, that's what he is entitled to do, it is acting on it, or speaking in a way that furthers a crime that is a problem, so for instance, the charges that are making a false statement, or perjury, those are pure word crimes, those are just -- and everybody under the sun knows that that is a crime, and they're prosecuted every day of the week, so it doesn't even require action. i also think that going big here, the big difference between this and what jack smith did is jack smith had unindicted co-conspirators, these are indicted co-conspirators.

this is holding people to account for what they did, and if you think about what the january 6th trials have been, that is holding people to account, who are the foot soldiers. this is so important to the rule of law, because if you don't want to just look at the very top, which is donald trump, but what about all of the enablers, it is really important that they're being held to account. >> and one of the reasons that we've all been discussing and learning from you, and chuck rosenberg, and lisa and other lawyers, is jack smith has a time, his clock is running, because after the election, if he's the nominee, if he is elected, he cannot only, you know, dissolve the case, he is pardon himself, that has to be tested but but there are a number of ways for it to go away, she has the advantage of a state prosecutor and it can't be pardoned, and in georgia, the governor can't do that, and all of these other nuances, but you also expressed your own concern, let's say, as a prosecutor,

former prosecutor, about the size of it. 19 codefendants. how she could ever bring that up to trial so quickly. so do you expect that some of these will fall by the wayside, and will come up with plea deals, and will be some of those unindicted co-conspirators, the federal case, she and jack smith will work together to clear the deck with some sort of a universal agreement, and create these -- these witnesses, these insiders. >> two points. i don't anticipate that there will be a trial of 19 people in one trial. that is a nightmare for the government, and it is totally a good thing for the defense, and just imagine, 19 defense lawyers and the havoc he had can create. but i think to your point about the pardon power, that is where it is true that donald trump, if he becomes president again, has that power, but not as to the other 18 people, to your point, katy, who are just charged.

those people are going to be tried. and they have a real problem. because they can't count on a pardon on donald trump, whether he wins or not, whether an ally of donald trump wins or not. they have the classic problem of a defendant who has been charged trying to decide, do i face the music, or do i decide that i want to be on the other side of the "v," in other words on the other side of that, the united states side or this case the state side. >> katy and i were talking before we went on the air, when we read the jack smith indictment, they are very, different. jack smith is like, i don't want to say a beach read, but very readable. you can follow it. >> last week was a beach read for me. >> to be nerds. >> she was literally on the beach reading it. >> this is a little tougher. >> yes. >> and i wonder if that is just

the difference between a state indictment and a federal indictment and the way they usually read, is there because there are so many more people involved in this one as opposed to just one, does a more complex story necessarily mean that it is a tougher prosecution? >> no, not at all. barbara was on the air last night talking about how she would prosecute the case, the way the indictment is laid out is chronological so it doesn't lend itself to the easy narrative that you are talking about but you can separate the overlapping schemes into different buckets, yes, there is a fake electors scheme, but there's also the pressure campaign, there's false statements and litigation filings, there's false statements to legislative hearings that were used to try to pressure georgia legislators to come back in a special session. so there are definitely stories here, you just have to sort of disaggregate the chronological story and put them in their proper bucket with what these people are trying to accomplish

and with whom, and then think about it all together, to serve the common purpose of overthrowing the election for donald trump. >> donald trump already tried to get the case pushed to federal court. it didn't succeed. is there a chance that this one might get pushed to federal court. >> there is certainly a chance that he will try to get it pushed to federal court. mine there is a statute that permits a federal officer acting within the scope of his or her duty to petition to have a case removed from state to federal court. he has a better argument here than he did in the new york case. i don't think he has a great argument here. because at the end of the day, committing a fraud is not within the scope of a president's duties. so will they argue it? absolutely. do they have a slightly better argument than they had in new york, to have it removed, i believe so. will they succeed?

i doubt it. >> chuck, i also want to say, what tim said, now representing bernie caric, when he told us this past hour about rudy giuliani and sidney powell and what the lawyer told me to dork the lawyer told me to do it, let's watch. >> based on my representation of multiple people, and not just the president but also bernie caric, i will say that sidney powell is one of those lawyers that everything i've seen, she was putting out theories that she didn't have any backup for, and that was actually one of the things that, you know, this indictment makes it seem like rudy giuliani and sidney powell were shoulder to shoulder. everything i've seen is actually quite the opposite. >> we've seen some of these players first of all, beginning to separate, and is the lawyer made me do it, you know, is that a risky defense, because it

could be waiving the attorney-client privilege and opening a whole can of worms? >> first question first, andrea, you often see co-defendants begin to separate. they had different levels of culpability and different levels of exposure, and to andrea's point, some of them make a calculation earlier than others that they would rather be on the other side of the equation. with respect to an advice of counsel defense, it's a real thing, i don't know that it is going to be available here in the way that mr. trump and some others might like, it requires a couple of things that may be a little bit painful for them. for one, you have to wave attorney-client privilege. so all of the advice they had gotten and all of the communications that each of the defendants have had with whatever lawyers they want to point to is going to get turned over to the government. that could make their lives, the defendant's lives harder, not

easier. and second, oversimplifying a bit, in order to have a reliance on counsel defense, you have to act in good faith. we talked about this quite a bit when the second jack smith indictment was unsealed. there's a lot of bad faith in that indictment. there's a lot of people who told mr. trump, and he is the lone defendant, of course, in that federal case, that his fake electors scheme was unlawful, that he had no good faith basis to do what it was he wanted to do. without a good faith basis, an advice of counsel defense is doomed to fail. can they try it? sure, they can try it. but i think it's going to be a very bumpy path for a number of the people who might otherwise wish to rely on that at trial. >> let me go from the legal to the logistical, because it is very clear that over the course of the last ten days, at some

point, all 19 of these defendants are expected to show up and they're going to be -- the mug shots are going to be done, they will get their fingerprints done, what do the 10 days look like where you are right now? how is that going to unfold? >> well, we had an increasing amount of security outside of the fulton county courthouse in advance of just the sealing of an indictment or indictments plural, at the end, as we know, it ended up being only one, but consider the following, 19 co-defendants all having to surrender themselves all before noon on friday, august 25th. what does that look like? the surrender process in and of itself is different than the arraignment. we've seen this happen before. former president trump claiming that he can go and get it dealt with and he didn't have local counsel in the miami case and what is kind of the difference here, he already has local counsel on the ground. he has been using local counsel for a while.

that makes the timing very different. but if you are the police, if you are the court deputies, if you have the chief judge here, you're going to try to minimize the exposure of risk or harm to any of the people in light of something like donald trump showing up here. but if you don't show up, then we are going to make sure this is clear. there are already arrest warrants that have been issued for all 19 of these co-defendants, including donald trump, and if they don't show up, they can be considered fugitives from the law, and they could be arrested and held until they have been brought in front of a judge to address their bond status and explain why they didn't show up. although there is a lot of peril at hands for these defendants and ignore the fact that they're facing an indictment in fulton county right now. >> fascinating. thank you so much katie phang, and chuck rosenberg and andrew weissmann. and moments ago, president biden announced that he and first lady jill biden are going to visit hawaii to see the damage from the most deadly wildfire in u.s. history. it came as he was speaking at an

event talking about his inflation reduction act in milwaukee. let's watch. >> we got to talk a little bit about hawaii. we've been on the phone with the governor coming up here, and let me say, in the devastating wildfires, some of which are still burning in hawaii, that the claim of lives of 99 people so far and they haven't cleaned things up, the deadliest wildfire in more than 100 years, a whole city destroyed, generations of nativen hawaii has been turned into ruin. and i talked to the governor and said they will have what they need from the federal government. and we have a declaration assistance, and they will get what they need, getting aid into the hands of those who have daechtly needed it, who have

lost loved ones and livelihoods and damaged in this storm. and think about this. all that area, they don't know how many bodies, they don't know what's left, and imagine being a mom or a dad, wondering where your child. is imagine being a husband or a wife, a mother or father, it is really tough stuff. almost 500 federal personnel have been deployed to plawy. some communities of survivors to get back on their feet. fema, search and rescue teams are sifting through the ashes. in that five-mile area that you have seen on television. >> it is painstaking work. it takes time. it is nerve-wracking. >> most of the things can't be moved million it is done. >> my wife jiff and i will be traveling to hawaii as soon as i can. and i don't want to get in the way of it, i there are too many disaster areas and i want to make sure they get everything they need and we want to assure that we don't disrupt recovery

efforts. the best that we have ever had, jill was on the ground and back in the states, and i had directed her to streamline the process as quickly as possible. and help register survivors from needs federal assistance without delay. today, fema has approved 50,000 meals, and water, 500 beds, 10,000 blankets, and as well as other shelter supplies for survivors, who have lost their homes. we have authorized one-time payments of $700 per household, to folks who have been displaced so they can do the immediate things, taking care of medications and prescriptions that they so badly need. we're working with the state to make sure survivors that have lost their homes have a place to call home until they can rebuild. we're also sending federal personnel to the state to help the brave firefighters and first responders, many of them who lost their own homes, their properties, while they're out

busting their neck to save other people. how many have been impacted, still working around the clock to put the fires out and evacuate survivors to safety and find the missing. i've ordered all available federal assets on the island to assist local crews including the u.s. coast guard and the third fleet and the u.s. army. in the immediate aftermath the coast guard and navy maritime search and rescue operation, the army helicopters helped fire suppression efforts on the big old, because there is still burning on the big ide, not the one where you have seen on television all the time. the search and rescue personnel are there. there are so many organizations to thank, like the american red cross, helping survivors, missing loved ones, and cell phone providers, tier one first responders, to make and respond to emergency calls. commercial airlines that have evacuated tens of thousands of people from the island.

the list goes on. and the small business nation has dozens of staff on the island, and have begun making low interest federal disaster loans available to a wide number of businesses, homeowners and renters and nonprofits to help them begin to rebuild, to get by for the immediate near term. and we are we're going to coordinate, continue to coordinate relentlessly for the people on the ground and make sure the critical work continues. in the meantime, you always hear this phrase, i've been so many disasters, it's almost hollow. our thoughts and prayers are with the people of hawaii. not just our prayers. every asset, every asset they need, we'll be there for them and we'll be there in maui as long as it takes. as long as it takes. i mean that sincerely. we're going to have more to report on this. but today -- >> president biden in milwaukee where of course the republican debate is going to be held next week.

trying to get some attention on inflation reduction act, saying he's going to go to hawaii. this after we should point out in the political context overnight, donald trump had a lengthy post criticizing the president for not, he said, speaking out enough and doing enough about hawaii. so there is that political context but the president is going to be doing that. more to come on that, of course, later. still ahead, four indictments, 91 felony counts. how did we get here? the former lead investigator for the january 6th select committee taking us through this timeline. that's next. you're watching special coverage of the fourth indictment of donald trump here right on msnbc. h indictment of donald trump here right on msnbc. ride it out with the tradeoffs of treating? or push through the pain and symptoms? with ubrelvy, there's another option. one dose works fast to eliminate migraine pain. treat it anytime, anywhere

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fani willis' case could be harder for him to spin because there's more evidence. fulton counties are sprawling on many of the same actions. perhaps most importantly, donald trump can't make a conviction in this case go away even if he's re-elected next year or if someone tries to pardon him. how did we get to this point and what happens next? joining me now is former lead investigator for the january 6th committee, ari, and andrew weissman. so, tim, a lot of what we saw here is stuff you guys uncovered on the january 6th committee. was there anything that stood out that fani willis was able to obtain that you guys would have loved to have had? >> sure. there are more meat on the bones that we set forth in our report and hearings. the court conduct here has been evident for a long time.

right? a multipart intentional plan to disrupt the joint session. to prevent the will of the people not just in georgia but a number of states from being manifested and transferred power. so sure, there are some new text messages, some new phone communications. the coffee county stuff is a bit beyond what we found. we didn't focus as much on the access to the ballots and voting machines but it all reenforces the same core story we told in our proceedings last summer and in our final report. >> so, ari, more meat on the bone. as we said in the lead in, trump can't pardon himself in a state case. it might be on tv. you can debate about whether that is good or bad, but what we're hearing from inside trump world that this is something that potentially they dread the most. that this is the indictment that makes them most nervous. is there reason to be? >> legally, there are many reasons because of what we

discussed. the way georgia works. prosecutors independent unless there's a great deal of political interference. that would be new. rachel was discussing that last night. there isn't an easy, fast road to a pardon. it's not dismissable even if donald trump were to assume the presidency. that would create a legal question for our nation. in many ways, this doesn't have the off ramps. we heard tim say meat on the bone. the meat has been marinated. two and a half years of time, marinating. >> you know you set me up. is he cooked? >> you're hungry. >> this is late lunch hour on the east coast. >> is he going to be grilled? >> grilled, cooked. >> skewered. >> i think in all fairness to the goose, the beef, the

defendant. will any of these gooses be cooked? this is the broadest set of indictments we've ever seen. that's the other part. it's also scary to people because so many people are involved. jack smith did what we would call a targeted case with other people wondering will i be indicted. nobody knows. prosecutors tend to be broad, tough, aggressive. whether you're appointing one or running, prosecutors who run for office as we have in many part of the country, they go out and say i'm going to be tough. >> tim, i want to ask you about some parts of the narrative you're so familiar with from january 6th you should be investigating. that infamous december 18th oval office meeting held by trump's inner circle. it's referenced in act 90 of this indictment. i want to play some of the sound

from the january 6th hearing to remind people what we're talking about. >> asking one simple question. as a general matter. where is the evidence? >> what response did you get when you asked? >> a variety of responses based on my current recollection including can't believe you would say something, things like this. what do you mean, where's the evidence? you should know. things like that. or, you know, a general disregard to the importance of actually backing up and saying facts. >> then there was a discussion, we don't have it now, but we'll have it. >> i think it got to the point where the screaming was completely, completely out there. you've got people walk in, it was late at night. it had been a long day. and what they were proposing i thought was nuts.

>> and tim, the indictment references an alleged co conspirator in the oval office for that meeting. the president and the others. in other instances. in that case, what does this represent to you as the potential strength of fani willis' case to have an insider talking to them about what donald trump knew and what his intent was? >> yeah, andrea. look, trials come down to stories. on this one, a pretty dramatic moment. there's a stormy meeting, contentious meeting in the oval office in front of the president of the united states at which people are proposing things like seizing voting machines, which requires a national security threat or a foreign, evidence of a foreign intervention. appointing sydney powell as a special counsel to investigate

voter fraud after the department of justice has already investigated voter fraud. this is a moment where a lot of the players involved on both sides of this push and pull in the oval office speak up. the unindicted co conspirators in this indictment, if you read it, it suggested someone who was on the kind of sydney powell side. that would be patrick burn or michael flynn. those are two people that were present for some of that meeting who were on the side of the extreme, baseless discussions about what the president might, action he might take to investigate voter fraud. if either of them are cooperating, look, as andrew was saying before, insider witnesses are the key to any conspiracy case. if there's someone who's in that room who's personally participating and proposing that crazy stuff, it would be significant. mike flynn asserted fifth amendment privilege to every

question including i think beyond his name before. patrick burn interview did not provide much. so who knows what she has. if she has more information about that crazy december. you could make that story come to life. >> you look like you wanted to jump in there. >> i think it's important for people to not jump to a conclusion when you are reading the indictment that an unindicted co conspirator of which there seems to be many people. >> 30. >> that they're necessarily cooperating. some of them, maybe. and but just to be clear, if they're cooperating and they're phrased at unindicted co conspirators, that means they've actually admitted to the prosecution that they did something wrong and they're a conspirator. it is also possible that fani willis has the view that they are a participant and that is that they are not cooperating. we just don't know the answer.

>> can i ask you as somebody who worked on a special counsel team, what do you think jack smith thinks of fani willis' case? she knows nothing of what he had and he knows nothing of what she had. what do you think might be going on? >> great question. so i think there are some real benefits to jack smith here. what he has a problem with is because he has brought a case only against the president, he has not charged people with pressure to get them to cooperate. she has done that. so she's not only brought charges against 18 people who could all cooperate, but those charges as we talked about, will stick. in other words, they are pardoned prove at a federal level. from his perspective, this is a plus because there's added

leverage. if they're waking up talking to their defense lawyers about what do i do now, that is a positive for both sides. >> if they cooperate, could that evidence, that testimony, be handed over to jack smith? >> absolutely. you really can't cooperate in only one case. it doesn't work. if you're a defense lawyer, you want coverage for anything. >> and andrew, because it's under rico, they only have to prove two chargeable offenses of all of these incidents. >> absolutely. they only have to prove two predicate acts. there was a rico case and i'm usually a huge pessimist when the jury's out and the first note we got was is it necessary for us to find more than two

predicate acts. and even i was sitting there going, okay, that's a good note. they wanted to know the ones we've done with two, are we done. >> can you explain that in very dumb, basic terms for someone like me. >> you know, a rico case, it's useful to think as a large conspiracy count. a group of people. this could have been charged as a conspiracy. rico requires that in order to make it constitutional, the government has to prove there's two underlying crimes. you have an enterprise, a group of people. whether it's an official group or it's something like the columbo family, it's a group. then you have to prove that there are two predicate acts. it could be loan chopping or

murder. here, there are many, many crimes that have been alleged but there has to be proof of two of them, but only two. if their choice is out of 50, the jury's going to be told you have to find two. >> that was the columbo act by katy tur. >> it was helpful. tell me about the human factor? because when you have 19 people allegedly who may have a propensity toward conspiracies and you're wondering what other people may be doing or talking to fani willis' team about. are there deals that are maybe going to be made? is there heightened tensions? maybe like we're in that room that eric hirshman described. does that play into it? >> yeah, it's a whole new phase. our viewers have been following the news. some of this becomes very

familiar. this is a brand-new world most of these people are waking up into today. let's not forget a month ago, no one operationally had been charged with efforts to overthrow the election or stage a coup. no one. as you say, on the human side, david chappelle has this joke, he got pulled over, his friend got in trouble. he asked the question everyone asks, how does this affect me? we're all human beings and there's one thing to have empathy and another to have fear. they're different feelings. you're putting your attention on something important, which is some of these individuals are going to wake up today, tomorrow, the next day, hear from their lawyers, long lost people saying it went this far. we've had disagreements in the past. political and otherwise. are you going to go to prison for this or be stubborn? are you going to, if you're a single parent, are you going to orphan your child? when these are such human things. as we always say. every one of these people is

legally presumed innocent but that's a fear they have. >> look at michael cohen as an example of someone who was loyal up and to a point. >> yeah, and so that comes into this. they're going to be processing that. i think and we discussed this briefly last night, there are some who say rico is this big bad racketeering law. if someone was mostly a spokesman or lawyer, did they really do enough to be pulled in? i will say the georgia law is stronger, which means on paper, it does more. which again is bad news if you're a defendant who says and not to single anyone out, but miss ellis, who i've interviewed, she might say look, i said things mostly in public and i thought i was working with people and i feel lied to but i didn't feel i joined the racketeering organization act. i don't think i'm on the hook for that. her lawyers may make that argument.

but again, the fear and the personal aspect of this is how do you want to play it. >> and people have very different risk tolerances. some people are gamblers. some are not. >> our thanks to you guys and the fulton county indictment offering some closure for the every day people at the core of this case. georgia election workers. multiple people charged in the indictment are accused of pressuring freeman and moss, a mother and daughter, after former president trump and his allies accused them of pulling ballots. it deeply affected them and their lives as we heard firsthand during the house january 6th investigation. >> i don't go to the grocery store at all. haven't been anywhere at all. >> i get nervous when i have to give my name for food orders. i'm always concerned of who's around me. i've lost my name.

and i've lost my reputation. i've lost my sense of security. >> and with us now is msnbc legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, barbara. atlanta journal constitution washington correspondent, tia mitchell. and charles, former prosecutor and also an msnbc legal analyst. barb, this indictment specifically calls out individuals who harassed these women and one knocked on ruby freeman's door prompting her to call 911 three times. so what's the strategy behind the d.a. including these specific workers by name in this charge? >> i think this charge really reflects the nature of the kinds of cases the federal government charges versus the kinds of cases the state government charges. oftentimes in federal cases, the victims are faceless. it is society in general.

all of the voters. that's sort of the way the victims are framed in the federal indictment. but in the georgia indictment, we have real people whose lives were touched. certainly there's the collective victim of all the people of georgia whose votes were played with, but the individuals. ruby freeman, shaye moss. some of the other individual, local officials. not big names. who were pressured to change the outcome of the election. i think that's what makes this case actually quite compelling and really humanizes it. i think this case will have a jury appeal that maybe will be lacking in the federal case which may feel more clinical when talking about pressuring mike pence and more institutions of government. >> charles, do you think it's a major game changer that the victims in this case, they're not just hypotheticals. they're not democracy. they're not voters. these are two human victims who

say and have shown this ruined their lives in some ways. >> well, chris, that's absolutely right. to piggy back on what barbara was talking about, one of the things that fani willis is going to have to do in this case is give the victims of these acts an actual face that the jury can connect to. that's something she's going to be able to do with this count that deals with ruby freeman and shaye moss because now you're not talking about these very lofty ideas that you've talked about with respect to democracy and democratic institutions. you're talking two real human beings whose pain, whose struggle we have seen since they testified in front of the january 6th commission. and to hear their story, you can't help but to be impacted. that's going to be a huge thing for fani willis to be able to engage as a prosecutor. the other thing that's very important, chris, is for a while now, a lot of people have been saying well, donald trump may have tried to do this but it

wasn't successful. essentially no harm no foul. that's not true in and of itself but when you consider the cases of ruby freeman and shaye moss, it becomes even further more a falsehood because these people had their lives ruined. these people cannot live as normal human beings anymore primarily because someone was furthering this conspiracy, which is why it is such a big deal. then when you look at the indictment, when you go into the details as to what they were asked to do, these people were asked to lie about the fact they did not do something proper with regard to the election. this is mind blowing given the fact that you had the most powerful people in the country preying among the most vulnerable. so i commend fani willis for this count. it's not gotten a ton of attention given the very explosive nature of the overall indictment, but it's going to separate what she's doing in fulton county from what's

happening at the federal level with jack smith. >> it seems it's the kind of thing the jury can relate to. can you imagine picking up the phone, hello, this is rudy giuliani. >> she says the president of the united states targeted her and she asked do you know what it feels like to be targeted by the president of the united states and how it led her to live a life of fear. i want to bring your attention to act 89 on page 43. on or between the 15th day of december 2020 and fourth day of january 2021, steven lee solicited harrison floyd to assist with his effort to speak to ruby freeman. a fulton county, georgia election worker. lee states to floyd that freeman was afraid to talk to lee because he was a white man. these were overt asked in the

furtherance of a conspiracy. she'll admit she tried to overturn the election or brought in fraudulent votes but won't say it's me because i'm a white man. talk about that part of the indictment. >> yeah. or probably a bit more cynical or damning reading of that is they felt by finding someone black who perhaps could relate to miss freeman in a different way would allow her to be more easily manipulated into lying or confessing things that could you know, make her be plausible or responsible for some of the wrong doing they're alleging while furthering their attempts to overturn the election. and so that's what we saw play out in the indictment as it was mentioned that you know, they did try to cozy up to miss freeman, provide her support, provide her cover, but really

they were secretly working according to the indictment, with trump and his allies as part of this conspiracy. i think this part is one of the parts of the indictment that as you mentioned, might resonate with jurors or just people as they're watching the case unfold. because as we talk about racketeering and we're used to it being in this mob or criminal or gang setting and that way you're used to hearing about allegations that these organizations tried to intimidate witnesses. tamper with people. and so this is an example of that applied to the trump indictment. >> charles, what about the civil case and giuliani? he confessed to what he said not being true. could that play a role? >> i expect at some point that's going to be used. it's so early to tell because you have 19 co defendants on

this indictment including giuliani. so we don't know what's going to happen with any one of them. i suspect we'll likely see some things come out before any trial takes place. but if it were to be the case that this was to go to trial and rudy giuliani is still a defendant, i absolutely would expect that to become a piece of evidence with respect to establishing the counts necessary in order to convict him around the harassment of freeman and moss. >> briefly, charles. there's a national effort eric holder, to try to protect election workers coming up in '24. and in other elections. do you think that's happened here in this indictment could lay out a game plan to try to protect these election workers? >> well i would hope so, andrea. when chris and i were talking about the notion of democracy versus real people, one thing that can't be lost in this con

ver sags is that the real world effect of the attack on democracy becomes attacks on people. so this is a classic example of how that plays itself out and one that i hope people will continue to use to make it real in terms of pushing these reforms forward and having these protections established for people who are doing their civic duties. >> charles, barbara, tia, thank you all. up next, how the indictment of the former president in georgia could impact his other criminal cases. you're watching our continued special coverage of the indictment of donald trump. number four. only on msnbc. number four. only on msnbc. [sneeze] (♪♪) astepro allergy, steroid free allergy relief that starts working in 30 minutes, while other allergy sprays take hours. with astepro's unbeatably fast allergy relief you can astepro and go! have fun, sis! ( ♪♪ ) ( ♪♪ ) can't stop adding stuff to your cart? get the bank of america customized cash rewards card,

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the georgia indictment comes almost two weeks after the former president was indicted by jack smith's probe and some of the suspected unindicted co conspirators in that case are now co defendants in the fulton county case. joining me now, "washington post" reporter, carol lehning and "washington post" national security reporter, devlin barrett. carol, how does this indictment from fani willis fit into the broader scope of the other cases surrounding former president trump? >> you know, i think, chris, the best way or the best item to compare it with is obviously special counsel jack smith's indictment of donald trump and reference to several unindicted

co conspirators. that case was lean and mean and clear and it certainly appeared that jack smith's motive now as we're really entering the throes of a very vibrant and vitriolic political campaign, it seems his effort, though we don't know his mind, was to make this streamlined. avoid complications. stick with one defendant who is viewed as sort of the head of the snake here and to avoid the complications of constitutional objections. avoid looking at for example, members of congress who might have been interested in helping donald trump in his efforts to overturn the election. fani willis is telling the overarching narrative and counts of overacts, she's describing basically all of the ways donald trump reached into different states according to this

indictment and used his key allies, his chief of staff, mark meadows. john eastman. so try to basically interfere in a serious of state elections notably georgia's, and throw the results into such chaos joe biden would not be able to be seated. >> devlin, what about the timeline? how does this indictment change the playing field for jack smith? you've got pretrial motions. arraignments for not only donald trump, but these other defendants. they're going to be running out of courthouses and he's got a campaign and you've got, you know, an election calendar as well.

>> donald trump's political and legal calendar. this is a massive, massive case. there's 19 defendants. my expectation given other rico cases and other large defendant cases, this will almost certainly have to be broken up into multiple trials with batches of defendants. but if you look at all the facts here. there's more than 100 overt acts. more than 41 counts. it is hard the imagine this will be anything other than a very long trial. even just the part that will have the former president in it. so i think it's going to be very hard to find time in his schedule to do this stuff. but to carol's point, there are a lot of legal issues that are going to be argued about before we'ven have a trial. so i read this indictment and to be honest, i see a long road ahead. >> could it be some of the co conspirators here go on trial before the others? that that could be convictions in this case ahead of the trial of the former president of the

united states? >> if you think about all these actors, the time to have struck a plea was many months ago. not now. but there's always still the possibility of a plea. second, you could have trials broken up and i think you will, multiple trials, but how how will depend on what judges say. there's so many variables it's hard to predict. >> devlin, carol, thank you very much. coming up in our next hour of special coverage, more on the 30 unindicted co conspirators in the georgia case. neil on what role they could play in donald trump's prosecution. plus, conflicting calendars anned the significant scheduling challenges they could face. our special coverage of the indictment of donald trump continues on msnbc right after this break. nald trump continues on msnbc right aerft this break

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welcome back to msnbc's coverage of the indictment of donald trump in georgia. i'm katy tur along with chris jansing and andrea mitchell. not content to fight it out in court, the former president says he will hold a news conference

on monday to put forth what he describes as exonerating evidence in frauder vote in 2020. the ballots in georgia were counted three times and the results were the same. he lost. >> the fulton county d.a. has set next friday as a deadline for which mr. trump and 18 others have to surrender and one by one, the others charged are coming forward. david schaffer released a statement insisting he is totally innocent. former trump attorney kenneth cheese breaux says the charges were unfounded and rudy giuliani said the real criminals are the people who brought this case. >> but georgia officials are talking today. the state's republican governor, brian kemp, hitting back pretty hard at trump by tweeting that the election was not stolen and no one has come forward in court