i'm so happy to be back with you and i want to thank you for letting us into your home today during these extraordinary times. the beat starts now.

hi, ari. >> always good to see you. >> that's right. have a good show. >> vicki so much. great to see nicole and great to be back with you to start the week. we are covering quite a few stories. a lot of eyes are on georgia. we have live pictures from the courthouse. the grand jury is going over evidence about this long- running 2020 investigation, including allegations that involve donald trump. now we are going to follow the evidence of the facts and not get ahead of anything. there's no reason to get ahead of it. it is the news, not prediction. what i can tell you is, there are good reasons why everybody is following death in the days ahead. that doesn't mean that anybody knows the timeline or how things are going to happen. here's what we know. some very crucial witnesses did enter the courthouse today and the judge did well today that

part of the proceeding of any future indicted party could be televised. we are also watching to see if anything happens anyway that we can learn from and you know because you follow the news that grand jury proceedings are supposed to be secret and we don't have a lot of information about what's going on inside of them. that's the way it is supposed to be. we can file the witnesses and see when they are still operating and we have reporters out there through the whole situation trying to see if it's going to run long tonight or any other night. as for donald trump, he is a defendant. has been arraigned three times. the evidence in this case and if the grand jury does indict donald trump, it would be his fourth just this year. there is also the scrutiny on the way that donald trump is conducting himself. whether he is testing these claims, these assertions that he would be treated like anybody else because he federal judge said that to him.

over the weekend donald trump attacked that judge calling him highly partisan, biased, unfair insane, quote/unquote, she office he wants me behind bars. also, i'm going to invite him down here because it was on friday when that judge said observatory statements in this case. i will take whatever measures that affect the integrity's of these meetings. meanwhile, the pressure from the special counsel may be affecting not only trump the people around him. they openly trashed the crackpot, sydney powell. they are spreading blame. please don't put me in jail. put that other guy in jail. strategy that was sure to come up at some point or another with another attorney working.

i want to get right to it with the political investigations reporter. we have been following many of these cases and let's start with the back-and-forth with the federal judge because while, understandably, you and other reporters are trying to see everything that happened georgia, we don't yet know what will happen. by contrast on friday, trump was very clearly told not to mess around. how much do you think he is messing around and testing that boundary gets the judge? >> it is pretty clear that this is the thing that he wants to test and he wants to test the boundaries. trumps advisors earlier today through last week, they tend to push everything right up against the line because trump fundamentally thinks that it's unfair. you and i both know that protective orders are routine

in cases but to trim, that is not the priority and i think we should expect to see more from trump in the weeks ahead until he is sanctioned by the judge. >> as you say, for the sanction even get there. what are your reporters tell us about what is also mentioned about donald trump faces not only this federal trial but all of these lawyers nabbed a couple co-conspirators that some of them may not be waiting sitting idle. they may want to explore their potential options. what can you tell us about that? >> this was something that she raised herself when she was issuing the protective order. to limit the number of people that would have access to the discovery material being made available to trump because some of those people might be co- conspirators and say beginning

georgia because trump lawyers believe in embracing that several of the lawyers made the comments here. you have these rotating lawyers who are all linked in various ways and all of their aims and goals may be identical to what trump once. their interests don't match up. they may be concerned that some of the lawyers that are church and lawyer may end up turning on trump. >> turning to georgia, when of the most interesting reports it's about some of the evidence. the grand jury process is fairly close. we are all watching it but we don't always have that much more to say until we get hard news out of it but there was this reporting i want to read about with the prosecutors may have obtained what goes beyond even more than the smith case. they have messages showing

trump behind that voting system breach. they have watched a second breach with some organic efforts and instead of gathering evidence by trans team to access since the voting software. what is upbeat about the evidence they have for a case? >> i think it speaks directly to the statute that exists in the state of georgia. it is much more standard and basically what it requires to show is activity and what of the crimes that the office has been looking at his understanding that and you can find all of these triangulating. you have trump and powell try to organize his effort to breach the neighboring county,

which is still in the jurisdiction, by the way. then you have all the people who might be charged tonight effort. when you look at it like that, you need understand why direct evidence in directing an effort like this could be bad for him and direct criminal exposure. >> yes. finally, anything you were picking up on the ground in georgia or for your time our observation that we cannot see at a distance? >> yes, look, you know, the true point is that trump lawyers are very concerned by what has been the premature posting of the docket report about charges coming out. >> we got that. i'm only jumping in to say we are going to get to that in the hour. you are saying that trump lawyers are intrigued around

that to argue and fairness. >> not only that, but they see that as unfair but on the flipside, they also see that as concerning because they think that is personal charges that could, gets trump and there are more charges that come to the line and i think it could be very bad for their client and they are trying to strategize that does something like 40 pounds this is no more meaningful for these lawyers and i think that is also driving a lot of anxiety right now. >> yes, understood. we appreciate you doing the reporting and joining us. good to see you, sir. >> thank you. >> thank you. we have a very special show tonight. i also have what of our special reports that we are working on. this when is about a lawyer who you see on screen, quote/unquote, the president of the arraignment table. he had his own legal scrutiny. i will be with you in just 60 seconds. seconds. ♪♪

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facing charges that could derail his career and his liberty. some of his most permanent past lawyers were recently named co- conspirators in those doj charges. they could ultimately be indicted. now it would be all of the ex- president or defendants lawyers. a special report, right now turns to a lawyer. a man who campaigned for trump in both of his presidential elections who served in his 2020 u.s. they got a better and at the new york trial you can

see him right there. the big prime seat right next to local new york counsel at donald trump's arraignment table for the first ever criminal arraignment. the man you see there has spoken to trump many times in up to five times a day. natalie serves as a trump lawyer but has risen to the first among equals status because he oversees many, if not all of the lawyers, including some with far more experience on trumps team. now this is a huge rise for a person who is not a republican strategist before. more of a political license than a provider of valuable legal advice. that is according to the tractors that spoke at the time.

again, he didn't have the high- level experience or presidential campaign or management or something like that and he hadn't been in the white house. if you go back, and this is part of my report. at the time back in the day, he was really more known as a commentator and pundit. >>, constitutionalist. i think it is important that everybody knows what the constitution says. what he should do, he should go out there and talk. my prediction it would help the people one way or another. we have 49 to 50 days. it's a really big mistake about party. >> he found a way to turn that disability and willingness to backtrack into a shortcut or fasttrack. that's actually the story the classic tells where they can engineer or skip the steps that other people have to go through.

consider, for example, the 1987 michael j fox classic, the secret of michael kay. >> what is your hurry? what is going on? >> i have a special delivery here. have a nice day. see you monday. brantley is whitfield and whitfield as brantley. >> there is more than one path out of the mailroom. now to bring us back to the current case, which could lead defendant trump in prison. if you go to 2016, the landscape had many senior experience who either would not work for trump and was seen by the on a path to losing were republican veterans that would only support trump selectively at the time. they wouldn't back his alleged

conduct. he hit all the notes the boss wanted, which is relevant right now because it's worth calling history. he went from the role of a reasonable, pro-choice moderate republican and somebody who is not in the republican success and he went from that to the firebreathing magna incarnate we know today. here is a little bit before then. >> >> where are you getting that from? >> hillary clinton is very well- liked right now. as far as weak excuses go, her excuse to lie to the american

people. >> i think that trump will be a phenomenal candidate. >> she's only part of the doj to hire more. >> now the talk of candidates going to prison might be echoed different but you can see that he blatantly lied about illegal voting there. and then president trump had that role in the white house and it didn't last long but he still found ways to stay in the mix. we have a photo of here coming back from the white house in 2019. like steve bannon and other figures who have emotional relationships with donald trump, epstein new that the boss the like to her kick you out. his value tv almost over

everything. he did recorded segments that advance many trump positions, defended his former boss and was caught in for an appearance here and there. it actually took more to where he is now at the table. and trumps aid say that he is a tremendous statement is a ministry. now, many factors could be at play but with a that is clearly evident tonight and relevant as we are tracking whether is epstein rebooted that 2016 strategy i mentioned after divorce the 2020 election but you had, again, this fisher and most lawyers would not do all the things that trump demanded

him to do. epstein went where others would not. he has not been charged with election fraud and he does defend his conduct, which we will show you but he was working directly with rudy giuliani. that is co-conspirator number one on the efforts to overturn state results and he goes further becoming critical to postelection postal operation. this world where people will, to deal with and election laws, rather than achieve the election win for the most viable people to trump. several outlets do not that and epstein later discussed some of the efforts that trump is now indicted for under questioning here on the beach. >> that was part of the process. everything was according to the rules and under leadership of rudy giuliani. >> name checking giuliani back

before that was before the doj named giuliani a co-conspirator. that is evidence of the jack smith indictment. both of them were public. present pentz lied and claimed that he had some unilateral power to cancel national elections, which no vice president have. we have him discussing that in our interview as well >> he opened and counted the votes. i had absolutely no idea that there was going to be valid for the capital. according to the electoral count at, there was absolutely a plan and a process for their

to be challenges. >> would you be opening to doing that in the future election of donald trump were to run again? >> i'm on record to say that i would have a very significant role in that process. >> epstein wasn't touched with many of them, so tonight, one of the questions swirling around is, is epstein the sixth and identified co-conspirator? we don't know. some messages point to that person being epstein but there is no confirmation or report that confirms who that person is, doj certainly won't and epstein declined to comment on the record when recently reached with that very question. what is clear is that none of this seems to be reducing his

position. he says it quite bluntly. even part from the probe, which is many issues i just mentioned. there is certain accusations. epstein pled guilty to disorderly conduct in the sexual misconduct cases were later dropped. a trump white house lawyer and putting him in public. another leaking anonymously, i don't know where he filed his license. they must be selling them. it's clear that some of those litigators that i mentioned to help drop with the very high stake case that jack smith has brought. those are the vigils have come, some of them, to view epstein

as a barrier towards the professional that they are all supposed to share and giving donald trump the best legal counsel of defense. if you are watching this as a fan of donald trump, then you should get the best possible legal help and everybody should be afforded that in our system. well, you go from that perspective and this is interesting. those fellow travelers disagree. here's what when of the lawyer said who has served on trumps team with the jack smith cases after leaving. >> there are certain individuals that made defending the president much harder than it needed to be. epstein had really done everything he could to try to block us and to prevent us from doing what we could to defend the president. >> that's an interesting twist

we just showed. he really wrote the political leader arc of doing whatever and anything trump went, including defending everything trump does but now you have an actual litigator hired for that purpose saying epstein was getting anyway and if it sounds like a conflict or a paradox that somebody must be lying, you have to remember that we show this last week, completely bracingly acclaimed himself. sometimes doing what trump wants is actually bad for trump that as a lawyer, just like other people can do expert service is there to serve the client, the patient, but also give their expertise and counsel and it is the patient or the client and if they have really bad at is that they think is great, well they know an honest person who is not

afraid will just tell the client or patient, this is why you were wrong and this is what we should do and that would be the tension. now in fairness, that is not new to trump board. the stakes are so much higher. lawyer john dean flipped and they got in too much trouble. now jack smith has put at least six people in terms orbit unnoted as co-conspirators. whether that leads to further charges or new evidence, it still holds the question, just like the question over the unknown cutout that you see on your screen. who is co-conspirator six? the journalist missing clues and possibilities but we don't know. >> when it comes to the secrets

of success in the trump world as mentioned earlier, for epstein, it's no secret anymore. it is political loyalty. it was his zealous advocate to be on tv and his repeated to demonstrate willingness to go where other top republicans won't and to do where other trump aides will not. that clearly catapulted him to the top of the orbit of the most important republican and republican party right now. someone who draws legal problems and could still be the nominee. that's all, even with the alleged merits made by colleagues, lawyers and others. all of that might've gotten him right here. it might have got him to be among the company of other lawyers maybe got on the right side of that line. maybe he found a way to do some

of the bidding but not be named the co-conspirator or maybe the doj ultimately will determine things that put them under more legal scrutiny but it is the tactics, the loyalty the advocacy and the perseverance of these individuals that does tie them together and mr. eastman was willing to lie blatantly about what was the law and look at sidney powell. they had to sometimes still with people saying, this is a wild, unusual or as trump said about his claims, crazy. mr. clark and mr. eastman you see on the screen, they were also taken pursuant to these points. because the doj thought those people looked more like co- conspirators. the question tonight and what we've learned about mr. epstein is, will he remain so close to the sun that he can no longer

provide the kind of defense that donald trump so needs all of the former president people, some of the former president co- conspirators rarely, have we seen so much around 70 people who are somewhat try to make the biggest pivot of all. away from a jail cell and into the oval office. that is our special report., to tell you what we are going to do next because it's with a sniper we have a lot going on. this was mentioned earlier. it is the most intriguing two page link document from the court we seen in a long time. we will be very precise about what it is and what it isn't and we have a former top official, a top lawyer in the state that is my special guest tonight and we will break it down next. down next.

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newsletter georgia today, the grand jury has this process slated to in a few of whether or not to charge donald trump and possibly others. at this hour, we don't have any confirmation of when that will occur, let alone how they will vote. there was intrigue on the media because we obtain two documents that list charges in a case

that is called versus donald trump. the fulton county clerk quickly removed this two page document today a representative put out a statement saying, it is a fictitious document in the document also tracked the potential charges the prosecutors could prepare. now, i want to be clear. nothing in this document suggest that we know what will actually be presented to the grand jury on the other hand, while the court is pushing back what looks like an internal clerical error of some kind, the court is not blaming if they were hacked or if this document was installed by actors. that is my as a draft really, it is pretty newsworthy. here's what it looks like.

it is the very day that the prosecutors have presented the charges and it may also be a kind of leaked blueprint of some or more the charges they are considering. for example, as you see on here is racketeering. listing a violation of oath by public officers. false documents of all statements, those are all forgery in mind by charges and join right now by very special guest. the former top legal official in the state of georgia, former republican attorney general. thank you for coming on tonight. >> my pleasure. thank you. >> when you see a document like this. two pages posted to the courts website and removed and leaders and other reported on it, would you be very careful not to do any confirmation of future events but given that it came from the courts website, what is your premise or understanding of what this

might be? >> it could be a draft. it may not be a draft. frankly there are a couple things on the document that our cause. one, it is the judge who is the hearing of indictment in open court if the grand jury presents the true bill but the document mentioned judge carter, so that causes harm and if an indictment go forward, it could be a conspiracy to prevent election fraud and that is not on the two pages, so georgia has a very specific statute,'s conspiracy to commit election fraud and it provides a lot of options in that regard. the fact that statute is in on those two pages also causes me pause. >> really interesting. you talk about what the questions are and we are signaling what we should put up on the screen but it has a date

on it. i'm still talking to my colleagues here. let's take a look at this. violation of the act and then it says november 4th, 2020 and, again, this is the leaked georgia document but interestingly, that was the day the trump campaign sued georgia over the ballots and could mark, in a theory of the case, the beginning of that conspiracy. >> it lists dates for september of 2021 but also, if you look at that document and it gives you a number five and it showing a number nine, i'm thinking it's missing numbers. once again, it causes me pause. what's two, three, four, for instance. there is clearly data on that

document that may be accurate but to the extent the overall document is accurate, i would question that. >> understood. then you have another listing to a conspiracy to impersonate a public officer and that is stated december's sixth, 2020 and i want to show another one here. a solicitation from a public officer and that is stated december 2nd and that was the brighter athens burger. again, we don't know if they would do this but it's an wanted the smoking gun pieces. >> all i want to do is this, just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have. >> and then through one more piece of this and there is a

notation about filing it and that is dated december 1st we checked that is the day the trump file that lawsuit against the governor and the secretary of state who you just heard him talking to on that call, which was, again, you are able to file lawsuits, the question is whether he took other actions, but that was they decertify or overturn the biden win in the state. again, you are the former top legal official in the state. your thought on that? >> keep in mind that everybody talks about that when called with the secretary of state but as you know, there was a whole set of calls. to the governor. to the attorney general. to the speaker of the house. i believe to the lieutenant governor. there were many calls in that regard. with regard to the litigations, also keep in mind the state selectors. keep in mind the three

legislative hearings that were not authorized. numerous statements were made are very arguable, shall we say and the da has a lot to work with. not only vice president pentz in congress, you had an outright in an attempt into a two high data. to consensually and they provide many options. she has a lot to work with. >> how much do they have to work with? we take this two pager and

we've been very careful about what it may or may not be, although it is certainly interesting but my next question for you, let's say that it's proven irrelevant or unrelated to the case and you and i are starting hear from the public knowledge of what you just referred to in with the evidence is. what do you think, as a former law-enforcement official here, what is the overall conspiracy were election against trump and those involved? >> keep in mind, once again, that the rico act is much broader than the federal act. when you include what she has at her disposal, it is clear that there are no worst opportunities for her to have

counts in an indictment that relates to false statements. we have been talking about the machines eric you know, is cleary for injury done the right to decide if the former president is presumed innocent. there is no question about it. >> the final question. when donald trump says this is a witchhunt and that he actually won georgia and all of this is designed to get him. what is your response to that? >> willis is a very experienced prosecutor. she has integrity. she has quality.

i would assume, if i were the former president, that this is going to be a very hard battle and that his lawyers must do a fantastic job to present his side of the argument. >> really interesting. this is the night where we are thrilled to have the former attorney general. thank you. come back. >> thank you, sir. have a great night. >> you too. everybody watching at home, i would say have a good night but we are not done yet. have special reporting on the ground next. wayfair. it's a big deal.

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welcome back. i want to turn to the story that hasn't gotten enough attention lately, although you will remember some key parts. this is when of those things where if it were a movie and then supporting all the same stuff in the queue and georgia and the unlawful civilly illegal defamation committed by fox news. a lot happened one night but that is what has been going on. there were people that really underestimated the pay in punishment that fox news was going to take and there was many reasons for that. they've gotten away with other stuff. they live in a world where a lot of people doing the bad things want you to them out and

want you to feel like none of this might matter where they get away with it were, you know what, it is pointless to go take a vacation or a run or whatever you might do instead because there's no point in following. they are ball. it's a trick. it is a tactic to get the people who actually care and keep things together and keep society going and that brings us to a story you may not have heard about yet but i want to include. it is the lies in the defamation. it already paid out a huge record-breaking some for their loss. they settled. they feel badly that a lot of other things happened. terkel carson is out and tonight i can tell you that fox's top lawyer, key republican official and murdoch family ally is on his way out as well and he's being given huge severance. he will still have the advisor role with fox but here's what's

interesting. a big change at this from somebody who's been on the inside and fox's and evening trying to explain why the powerful insider is out and he's leaving in the wake of that over half $1 billion payout defamation suit which tucker carlson, who was a big part in not only the original trump bandwagon but trying to minimize and defend the condition after the fact. here's how the new york times reports it. they found that a lawyer was given flawed advice to the company on how to deal with this damaging case. they had been told that they were on firm legal footing because of that. don't get high on your own supply. it's wanting to go to a maca barbecue and say, oh, we have

this. first amendment. first amendment first amendment and everybody nodded it's another thing to take it to court. they lost big-time. of course, it doesn't excuse what they said on air. remember they pet out early, p let it close to a trial date, so the secret texts and emails were made public by that very suit. >> this is not a singular voting fraud in one state. this is a pattern that repeats itself in a number of states. >> the machine ran an algorithm that shaved votes from trump and awarded them to biden. >> a lot of the machines, particularly by the dominion company, they actually have a chinese software or parts in them. >> no, they didn't. that last voice is now according to the doj one of trump's coconspirators. what you saw was learning how even people around her were saying it was, quote, really crazy and people inside fox knew it was a lie.

they had that knowledge in advance. is the pain over for fox? or ms. powell or these other individuals? i don't know, but i can tell you with that blueprint of that loss and this lawyer kicked to the curb, they're still facing another over $2 billion defamation suit along similar lines from another voting machine company that says they relied on. that's your update. we'll be right back. ♪ jardian♪ ♪ it's a little pill with a big story to tell. ♪ ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪ ♪ at each day's staaart. ♪ ♪ as time went on it was easy to seee. ♪ ♪ i'm lowering my a1c. ♪ jardiance works 24/7 in your body to flush out some sugar! and for adults with type 2 diabetes and known heart disease, jardiance can lower the risk of cardiovascular death, too. jardiance may cause serious side effects including ketoacidosis that may be fatal, dehydration, that can lead to sudden worsening of kidney function,

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cancers including lymphoma and skin cancer, death, heart attack, stroke, and tears in the stomach or intestines occurred. people 50 and older with at least one heart disease risk factor have higher risks. don't take if allergic to rinvoq, as serious reactions can occur. tell your doctor if you are or may become pregnant. disrupt the itch and rash of eczema. talk to your doctor about rinvoq. learn how abbvie can help you save. sometimes, the lows of bipolar depression feel darkest before dawn. with caplyta, there's a chance to let in the lyte. caplyta is proven to deliver significant relief across bipolar depression. unlike some medicines that only treat bipolar i, caplyta treats both bipolar i and ii depression. and in clinical trials, movement disorders and weight gain were not common. call your doctor about sudden mood changes, behaviors, or suicidal thoughts. antidepressants may increase these risks in young adults. elderly dementia patients have increased risk of death or stroke. report fever, confusion, stiff or uncontrollable muscle movements which may be life threatening or permanent.

these aren't all the serious side effects. caplyta can help you let in the lyte. ask your doctor about caplyta. find savings and support at caplyta.com. (bobby) my store and my design business? ask youwe're exploding.aplyta. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon.

another story tonight, alabama republicans trying to limit voting rights, sending their lawyers to court, this is after they resisting the supreme court order mandating they redraw an unfair congressional map. legislature was supposed to create what was basically a second majority black district, and they did not. instead, they responded by passing a new map that as nbc news put it was sort of a defiance or resistance of what was supposed to be the majority black seat. now, that resistance is landing them back in court. it's a voting rights story we're going to stay on. a lot of news tonight. "the reidout" with jason johnson in for joy reid is up next.

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