that is tonight's last word, the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. >> tonight, president biden's nato unity test on his overseas trip. while here at home the former president faces growing legal battles over his efforts to overturn an election. then, the 2024 long game. republican hopefuls spent the weekend attacking one another, but how does that actually translate with voters? and twitter competitor threads boasting some major sign up numbers in the rivalry between the tech billionaires reaches a new low as the 11th hour gets underway on this monday night. good evening once again, good to be back with you, i am stephanie ruhle. and tonight we are tracking important developments in several investigations into the former president, donald j trump. nbc news reports that fulton county, eight fani willis, it

will begin choosing two grand jury's tomorrow. if we'll estates pursue charges against donald trump, these jurors will be the people signing off on them. meanwhile, special counsel jack smith wants to take the classified documents case to trial this december. both sides have agreed to a hearing next tuesday about handling evidence that was supposed to happen this friday. the judge has yet to give the okay. the timing of the trial is absolutely key, you know why, because we are just seven months out from the first presidential primaries. >> the judge knows that, if this trial does not occur by the end of this calendar year, that it is going to be right up in the grill of people deciding who the republican nominees for president should be and, right now, the favorite in fact is the defendant. >> the case is also the focus of a new political ad that started airing in the battleground states of arizona, georgia, and wisconsin.

in it, former cia and nsa director michael haden is just a warning about donald trump. >> the president is supposed to keep our secrets secure, not show our secrets off. >> this was done by the military and given to me. see as president i could have declassified, now i can't. it's so cool. if >> he had many top secret documents at mar-a-lago for more than a year. we do not know who saw them. >> and as that case moves into the trial phase we have learned that the grand jury in the special counsel's january 6th investigation has now heard from dozens of witnesses. we are also following the latest on president biden's european trip, he is now in lithuania for a key nato summit which gets underway a few hours from now. earlier today he met with britain's king charles and prime minister rishi sunak. this comes as turkey announced it was dropping its objections to sweden joining nato, this

means the alliance could expand even as it supports ukraine in the war against russia. meanwhile, a senior administration official tells nbc that president zelenskyy will meet with president biden on wednesday. i told you we had a lot to cover. so let's get smarter with the help of our leadoff panel, andrew dysentery oh joins, a senior congressional reporter for punchbowl new. barb mcquade is here, a veteran federal prosecutor and attorney for the eastern -- of michigan. and anthony coley, spokesperson under merrick garland is here as well with me at 30 rock. welcome. barb, i want to start to talk about the documents case. what sticks out to you in this activity that we are seeing before the trial? >> well, the word that comes to mind is delay. it seems that already we are seeing walt not a play the role of the human brain delay. donald trump is showing up on time, but it is walt nauta who delayed for some three weeks to

get local council for his arraignment and now says that his other lawyer is not available to handle this classified information procedures act proceeding, that was getting put off until tuesday. and so we may continue to see this. in fact, one of the trump lawyers said they didn't want to even have the hearing in till after they had obtained their security clearances. the other lawyer for walt so i think that these are the tactics that one hopes that a judge would be very proactive, because, stephanie, it's not just the defendant who has a right to a speedy trial it's all that the public. this is why we see jack smith pushing very hard for a speedy trial. >> that takes me right to my next question. because donald trump's best defense seems to be delay, and there is a reason that he is doing that, because it has worked for him time and again. this judge, aileen cannon, has proven herself in the past to be an ally to donald trump. what responsibility does we

have the sides to the general ethics to actually get the show on the road? could she just keep stalling and face no consequences for that? does she have a deadline? >> i think that she does have a lot of power here, stephanie. it's not just the defendant but the public that has a right to a speedy trial and so the government, i'm sure, it will be pushing to get that trial date soon. they have asked for a december trial date, which seems quite reasonable, but the judge has a lot of power here and that does not really something that was reviewable on repeal. if she thinks, in her discretion, it is necessary to keep the pardons additional time to get security clearances, to review classified information, to file motions and decide those motions it could easily stretch out many, many months. >> what do you think? >> so i think delay, delay, delay is the name of the game. >> and it should be. i'm not saying it's the right thing to do, but it has proven to be a successful move. >> that's exactly right, because the facts in this case,

stephanie, are so overwhelming against donald trump and it's just not the facts themselves, it's is the source of the facts. we're talking about surveillance footage, we're talking about text messages between trump's own employees these people were on his payroll so the likelihood of him -- you never want to surmise or guess what a jury will do in any trial, but the facts in this case are so overwhelming against him that he is going to try his best to drag this out well into 2024. >> dam, that is what we thought he would do barbara and he clearly is. let's talk about the january 6th, nbc's news is reporting the dozens of witnesses have been called. i want you to walk us through the special counsel is focusing on the fake electors scheme. does this make sense to you? >> yeah, this conspiracy, if

there is one to be found, has a lot of different tentacles and one of them, it is really essential to the whole scheme, is the idea of fake electors. the idea, as reported and found by the january six committee, was to submit these false claims to mike pence so on election day he would say gee, we have duplicate slates of electors for seven states. i guess we ought to toss them out and declare the winner as the one who got the most votes, and lo an behold that's donald trump. it's an important are the case because it may be some of these electors signed their slates in good faith, they were told it was some kind of provisional ballot, but it may also be that this was a coordinated effort to sow confusion into the vote count on january sixth. so i think it is important to hear from those people about what they heard and what their understanding was and who is orchestrating this from above. >> stephanie, i will add here that the public only knows a fraction of what happened in this case, but what we do know has got to have donald trump

and the people around him very concerned. i would not say surprised, because they knew what they were doing in november and december of 2020, they knew that joe biden had rightfully won this election, they knew that some 60 federal courts and judges found the same thing, they knew bill barr came to that same assessment. so it is really, an unfortunate situation that we find ourselves. and >> andrew, let's go back to trump's tactics here in delaying in that he might actually have a trial running into the 2024 primary. what are people on the hill saying about that? >> then -- investigations when democrats were in charge, house of representatives in which he was able to, basically, they'd

accountability, subpoenas, evade the investigations really by seeking -- -- >> i think we've lost him. i want to move on and talk to georgia. what can you tell us, barb. help us understand what fani willis is doing down there because she already had a grand jury that was dismissed. >> so we've had a special grand jury that made the recommendations about proceeding and then she had a grand jury that was seated in may, but it may be that this non special, regular grand jury only sat for a short duration. they may not have had an opportunity to hear all the evidence, so she's got two more that she is wearing and

tomorrow. she may proceed in front of only one of them in this case, she may use both of them. but i imagine that there is a tremendous amount of evidence for them to review, you know she can do a streamlined version of what the special grand jury looked at during its duration. this is really just giving them enough information that they can make a finding, whether there is probable cause to issue an indictment. based on the letter she sent to the court, stephanie, i have to believe that fani willis believes that she will have a final decision from these grand juries by the end of the month because she has said to the court, asking the court to clear the docket for the first two weeks of august and asking her own staff to work from home. it sure sounds like she is expecting some really supercharged filings needs to be made, with perhaps some civil unrest results. >> andrew, let's put you with joe biden. he's on this trip, this nato summit. what does he want to get out of it? from our perspective, my perspective, it already has been successful. >> it really has. i don't think any of us going

into this ear could have imagined that the president of the united states could have brought all of europe together. my hope here is that, at the end of the day, that the united states will continue to lead. that they can give the ukrainian people all of the tools they need to win on the ground and protect their territorial integrity. >> how big of a deal of it is it for turkey to drop their opposition about sweden joining nato? i mean that was putin's whole point at the beginning of this war against ukraine, the strength of the nato alliance and what has happened, it has gotten stronger. >> it's gotten stronger, and that has got to to be something that all of the world around -- freedom loving people have got to appreciate and celebrate. at the end of the day, what we have seen in ukraine is a president led by putin who is

in a place where he should not be. and my hope is that, around the world, people can celebrate this. >> i've got to ask you about this. republicans, they were going on and on for quite some time about hunter biden's whistleblower. the whistleblower who is going to tell us all of the horrible things he had been up to. that whistleblower has just been indicted by the department of justice, for what? for being an unregistered foreign agent. i want to share with you what house oversight chair james -- said to news facts this weekend about this very person. it's a very important whistleblower. >> he's very credible and the people at msnbc who made fun of me when i said that we had an informant that was missing, they should feel like fools right now. this is their worst nightmare because, again, this is a credible witness that the fbi flew all the way to brussels to interview and sent several agents to interview.

>> for facts's sake, the whistleblower has just been indicted by the government. what is going on here? >> here's what's interesting about this. i've been in politics, you have been in politics and business for a while. we know that the best political attacks, the most effective political attacks are those that are rooted in facts. and that is what has been absent from this entire -- from the clip you just saw, and the attacks that we were seeing from jim jordan and others on the hill right now. what we have all been focused on today is this letter that david wise sent to lindsey graham, today about this alleged whistleblower. stephanie, let's step back and say that i spent two years at the justice department. the attorney general once told me that it is not just enough to do justice, we have to appear to do justice. so what does that look like? it means putting in place

people and processes to ensure that the rule of law is reinfused into every aspect of the department. that is what happened in this david weiss investigation of hunter biden. think about this, this is a trump-appointed u.s. attorney. if the shoe were on the other foot, can you imagine donald trump keeping in place an obama -appointed u.s. attorney like barb mcquade to investigate one of his children? it just wouldn't have happened. >> barb mcquade would be excellent in any role, anywhere, anytime i would like to say. barb i would point you for anything. thank you for being here barb, anthony, andrew i'm sorry that we lost his signal he is overseas. sometimes that happens. when we come back, presidential hopefuls are wasting no time launching new attacks at the former president and one another. we will talk to heidi had camp and tim ryan about the 2024 race, and what people in their home states are saying about it. and later the one and only professor scott galloway is

here on the rise of threats and what it could mean for twitter, and he has deep thoughts on the end of affirmative action and what it means for colleges. that you don't want to miss this conversation, the 11th hour is just getting underway on a monday night and i am stoked to be back with you. ce with sensitivity, i see irritated gums and weak enamel. sensodyne sensitivity gum & enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work.

we moved out of the city so our little sophie could appreciate nature. i'm a big advocate of but then he got us t-mobile home internet. i was just trying to improve our signal, so some of the trees had to go. i might've taken it a step too far. (chainsaw revs) (tree crashes) (chainsaw continues) (daughter screams) let's pretend for a second that you didn't let down your entire family. what would that reality look like? well i guess i would've gotten us xfinity... and we'd have a better view. do you need mulch? >> the people of the republican what, we have a ton of mulch.

party and quite broadly across america are tired of having

political candidates who are snake oil salesman. who just do not tell the truth. who tell whatever they want to hear at the moment. and do not fulfill any of the promises. they have lived that in the republican primary. >> well then. the republican primary is well underway and the candidates can not stop going after one another. that is how primaries work. watch this. >> donald trump has spent over 20 million attacking me. that is more than he has spent supporting republican candidates in last year's midterm elections. >> will you run against the president? he said i have no comment on that. i said, he has no comment? that means he is running. i said, that some of a -- is running. i got him elected. >> my former running mate likes to talk about -- the only way you would solve this war in a day is if you gave vladimir putin what he wanted. >> i cannot lie in order to get access to a microphone. i cannot do it. my issue is not with supporting

the republican nominee. my issue is with supporting donald trump. donald trump is a proven loser. >> with us for more former democratic senator of north dakota she is the founder of one country project. and former democratic congressman of ohio tim ryan. he is the senior visiting fellow at third way. heidi, can you just walk me through this sort of primary street ego. you have trump gunning for desantis while everyone else seems to be getting trump. >> well it makes perfect sense because elections are about comparisons and it has been a long time coming but finally we are having the dialogue we need to have. what you do not hear though is that it is not a dialogue of ideas there is just a lot of criticism. not saying what they would do. and it has been fascinating to see the elbow kind of moving your elbows. trying to find room on the debate stage. and so we are going to know a

lot more by the end. the middle to the end of august. but it does not surprise me. if you want to win the republican nomination you have got to take on the front runner and the front runner is donald trump. now the question is, are they going to shoot their own and engage in a kind of suicide pact? and the only one left standing is donald trump. so it is going to be interesting to see these dynamics leading up to the first debate in milwaukee. >> tim, let us stay on what heidi just pointed out. nobody is really talking about policy. nobody is talking about here is what i would do. it seems more like i am here because i need to protect you from where this country is going and what is happening. but no one is actually offering solutions. and i remember when you were running, tim, every time we spoke it was we have got to cover the meat and potatoes kitchen table issues. there's nobody at any kitchen table i'm hearing from any of these candidates. >> no.

and that has been, hello, senator heitkamp always. this is been going on for such a long time in the republican party. no ideas no innovations, even when trump got in there were shorted out and a big tax cut. i was literally the only thing they could all agree on within their own caucus. we had infrastructure for about 150 weeks in a row. it never got an infrastructure bill. so this is par for the course and i think this is the opening for independent voters to come back home to democrats. i think for us to make some hay. but i cannot wait for the debates. get out the popcorn. extra butter. some snow caps. let's make it a party. >> snow caps, definitely not. maybe a junior mint. definitely not a snowcap. >> gotta mix the snowcap with the popcorn. >> that is a hard pass, that's an ohio thing. >> heidi, what do you think of this chris christie approach? sort of this human wrecking ball going after trump but does

he really have a chance? >> you know what, he has moved pretty rapidly up to a position in the polls. i think he might be ahead of pence at this point. because he is basically speaking to the disaffected republicans who have said look, we cannot go with donald trump. and he is not bambi pan being at. he is basically saying trump is a loser. if you want to continue to lose, support him. plus he is unfit for office. and the rest are kind of saying well you know he is still our guy. but isn't it time to turn the page? desantis now has gotten his backup because he has been attacked by trump but trump is laying off other candidates, including my own governor who just yesterday said he would not do business with donald trump. you have not seen any tweet in response. so one thing donald trump has learned is not punch down. but the bottom line is that donald trump is still on his way to being the republican nominee unless some of this

message with the maga crowd and with mainstream republicans or are willing to step up. th mainstream republicans or >> so we have got a long way to go but i think that we are going to know a lot more by the end of the year. >> whomever the republican nominee is, tim, do they not need to figure out how they are going to hit joe biden. because i watched day in and day out and do not they need to pick a lane? right, he can't be sleepy joe who is too old for the job. and then at the same time, he is high on cocaine. right, he can't be senile and a puppet and at the same time running a secret crime family or running over kevin mccarthy on debt ceiling negotiations. so which is it? >> well i don't know, they are going to have to pick and something tells me they are not all going to be aligned on that. i think the president, the administration, i think those running for reelection here in ohio with senator brown and others mansion and these guys

you have got to talk about what has happened. we have the greatest reindustrialization happening in the united states since basically world war ii. we have seen it right here in ohio. we see auto electric vehicle plants. we see battery plants natural gas power plants chip manufacturing. all directly connected to the idea that we are going to re-industrialized the united states of america and create good paying jobs. a lot of these jobs are union jobs. intel chip manufacturing plant just outside of columbus ohio. 7000 union construction jobs for the next five years. and then for the next ten years, it's going to be at least 5000 hundreds of billions of dollars in investment. the president needs to take credit for that. it is actually hitting home now. it is not a hypothetical. let these guys go and run around talk about some of the insanity that they have been talking about. it's not going to resonate. average people will vote. and if they see these initiatives hitting the ground

in their own states they will reward those senators and reward the administration. >> are they seeing it? how do you take us to north dakota. tim laid out a whole bunch of huge achievements that this administration can boast about. but the voters know that? how do people in north dakota feel what are they saying about president biden? >> i think they are concerned. and they are conservative. and so they are not naturally going to support a democratic candidate. and so he has a big lift to try to get beyond the label. and get people to listen to what he has done and what he has accomplished. and it is interesting because even the governor, whom is running for president, who talks about how destructive biden has been. has been more than willing to pursue those inflation reduction dollars for clean energy. that were only delivered by the democratic party. and so, when you look at where

the state like north dakota is, it's probably not a good example. one thing i would add to what tim just said is look, we used to run away from the culture wars, we used to say okay we want to talk about the economy because we think the economy it has always been better under democrats and we do a better job we have a better argument. now all the sudden, with the dobbs decision and with the number of other demographic changes and more acceptance of gay and lesbian rights you are seeing a change in how democrats are talking about culture as well. and so i think that these two factors are both weighing in favor of the democratic party. but we have to acknowledge that joe biden has record low approval ratings. and that those approval ratings have to get back up if he will run reelection. >> tim, what are voters in ohio saying of president biden?

you just walk through a ton of great achievements he has had right there in your state. >> yeah. i would say he is not getting and i think democrats are not getting the kudos because you have got to have the campaign. and i think it has got to be an energetic campaign. i think most people honestly stuff would like to new people to be the nominees for the two parties. >> but why, you just walk me through all of those extraordinary achievements. we laughed at president trump's infrastructure. president biden got an infrastructure bill turned into law in a bipartisan way. >> look, i voted for him. i supported. i pushed that. most of my career. so it is what it is. i think it will happen the way it will happen. it will probably be trump biden again if i had to guess. and i think there is a lot of significant and initiatives that he pushed. that are actually doing in the american heartland and michigan ohio pennsylvania wisconsin

these key states. we need to win going down into georgia. those states are benefiting significantly from the infrastructure bill. the inflation reduction act the rescue packages. all of the local government funds these local governments are passing out now. for key projects that have not gotten done for 30 or 40 years. here is the only thing i would say. this has got to be a robust and vigorous campaign. it needs to be on the ground. it needs to be energetic and it can't be the rose garden strategy. we are going to cut ribbons. people want to get excited of what the future of america would look like. and the president is very well positioned to articulate that. and has the initiatives behind him. so i just hope that we bring the energy. that will isolate the viruses the pathogens that want to take over. and i think that we can have a fairly successful and stable few years ahead of us and rebuild the middle class. >> time to bring the heat is

what you are saying to. >> if i could add something to this. joe biden does not need to talk ill of any republican because they're doing a pretty good job on their own. good jo on their own so he just needs to talk about what he is doing. and that will maneuver and put him in a spot where i think he will emerge as a uniter not a divider. >> always a good idea to stay positive, heidi heitkamp, tim ryan great to see you both. before we go to break, i would like to present this to you without comment. for the second straight year, saudi-backed liv golf championship tournament gets where it will be played? at former president trump's national doral golf course in florida. the event was originally scheduled to be played in saudi arabia and they just decide to change the venue. well you know how on this show we like to remind you to follow the money? in this tournament is worth millions. and millions of dollars. that is just something to keep in mind as not one, but two pga officials are set to testify

about the merger with liv. they will be testifying tomorrow at the senate. and we will keep following the money. coming up, professor, podcaster and friend of mine scott galloway is here to talk about twitter, threats and what it all means for your social media feed. you do not want to miss that. and his thoughts on the end of affirmative action, when the 11th hour continues.

>> medicine hat, threads, has already just been out for a week, and it has wrapped up 100 million users. joining us now scott galloway professor of marketing and why you host of the project podcast. of course, co-host of -- podcast. and you know because he's a dear, dear friend of mine. you are the first person i want to talk to about threats. i was out last week threads was missing you for the time the weekend came it was like for you threading are you threading? what does it say about elon musk and twitter that you have scores of people flooding to help mark zuckerberg out maybe the second most inundated person business. >> disruption is not only a outstanding that structure is but how valuable that is. so amazon success was largely a function of that in stores income. netflix was successful because essentially the broadcast

supported ecosystem was less of a value for that. in this instance there is nothing more distrustful than something that is perceived as not kind in a jerk. threads is the most ascendant platform in history, it took twitter five years to get to 100 million users, tiktok 11 months, chatgpt five months, it took threads five days. this is the most ascendant platform in history, stephanie. >> where is it gonna go from here? >> i would bet that in the next two months it is as big as twitter and its run rate is bigger than twitters revenue run rate, within probably 30 days. >> if i'm a twitter exec right now, charged with focusing on bringing advertisers in, what do i do and what am i thinking tonight? >> you are probably in court suing elon for the severance he didn't pay you. i don't think that there is anyone home now, i think this is literally, i mean it is

understandable that dunning kruger effect, someone is very successful in one area and they think they can be successful in another. i think elon has been as successful if mark zuckerberg tried to launch a rocket. he's flailing and doesn't know what to do, i don't think we have ever seen a business implode this quickly. he is literally lost 30 billion in five months, he's gone from an rate of five billion to two billion. can you think of any business that testing that kind of revenue implosion? >> no. >> so this was a gift to meta and they have, the question it brings up is if there are a lot of innovators that came out, jack dorsey's blue sky, mastodon post -- a great company. but nobody has a three billion person cannon and they can point at a new app like mark zuckerberg. >> antitrust questions? >> it brings up a larger question, when you live in echo system where you can just point a cannon at something.

for all the talk of a. i., at some point does microsoft just bundle it into all their different office apps? right now, round one of the cage match goes to mark zuckerberg. he is beating the crap out of musk and twitter. >> at least this week. i want to talk about the supreme court and the decision to dismantle affirmative action. you've talked extensively about this before they made this decision, and college and college acceptance and how high ridge keisher is what changes our status in life. what do you think about this decision? >> i think they've got a ride, i don't think they ended government of action, i think they ended race based affirmative action. martin luther king said he thought affirmative action should include, what he called the forgotten white poor. 60 years ago the academic achievement gap between black and white was twice as big as between rich and poor. 60 years later the academic gap between rich and poor is twice

as big as black versus white. 40 years ago, 14% of ivy league freshman were non whites, this year it is 50%. so affirmative action has been great, it has worked, but now if you are talking about who you really need to lift up you need lift up kids from lower income households. the most talented kids from lower income households have worse outcomes than the least talented kids from wealthy households. so affirmative action is a wonderful thing, my alma mater, the university of california is leading the way. they got rid of race based affirmative action in 1986 and they replaced with an adversity score, and they take a background into account. and this year in berkeley, a third of the student -- their most diverse class in history. so affirmative action is a wonderful thing, it's just that the bitter metric for deciding who need to hand up now, in a capitalist decide society, is money not race. >> will this now challenge

colleges to think more creatively, to actually dig deeper and figure how are we going to get to the best students? shouldn't just be legacy, or affirmative action, we've got to figure out how to get to the best candidates? >> it's a bit of a missed direct. there is a 450, affirmative action is a problem because they have more supply than demand. me and my colleagues have become totally morally corrupt and drunk on exclusivity and have created artificial scarcities such that we can charge a rational margins and aggregates endowments as harvard has done, and that uses you to pile hundred dollar bills go to the caramel line. >> when they could really just except a couple thousand more kids a year and put up a more residents halls. they've got the money. >> 1500 kids. imagine if you had a drug that made you healthier, happier, less depressed, more likely to be president, more likely to be an office in the armed services, more likely to get married, and stay married. that is called a degree from an

elite college and we are hoarding that drug, such that we can charge irrational prices. we have raised tuition 1600 recent in the last four years, instead of having a war that divides us over who gets in, we should be attacking the real problem which is how many get in. when i applied to ucla, which is why i'm here today is the grace and genorosity of california tax majors, the administrate was -- last year was 12, now is 9%. it's not good for america? >> absolutely not. >> we need more, it's not about who, it's about more. on the far right they want to take kids of color back to the 50s and bring them back to old vein. on the far left, the wokesters should be talking on the real problem. it is not who gets in, it is how many and we need a lot more. we should take that 500 billion allocated for student debt relief that shrinks a tumor but does not go after the cancer, and we should have a grand bargain and say that there are great public universities, in exchange for a billion dollars each at the 500, adjusted for size, you've got to do three

things. you've got to expand your enrollment 6% a year using technology and infrastructure investments, you've got to reduce cost 2% a year, you've got to allocate 20% of your degrees to vocational certifications, especially construction, cybersecurity. in ten years what we end up with? double the number of freshman seats, more on ramps to middle class with vocational certification, and on an inflation adjusted basis half the cost. it is about more, we have got to stop hoarding this. me and my colleagues have decided we are chanel bags, not public servants. we need to return to be public servants. >> forget chanel, i'm into scott galloway. it's great to see you, even where you don't wear socks. when we come back, how did youtube go from charlie bit me to a hotbed for conspiracy theories? the director of the new documentary on just that is here when the 11th hour continues. ♪ i take once-daily jardiance, ♪

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sharing platform, youtube is now the second most popular website in the world and in a new documentary called the so of course part of that algorithm is this is something that is relevant to this, but some of it is, we know people will click on this and if you click on it i get more data and more ads. and that has led to lots of problems, the rabbit hole effect,, the echo chamber, and so if you're on youtube today and you click on -- in a couple of clicks you will be on la la land clicking on conspiracy theories. a full 10% of recommendations were conspiratorial. that is insane. >> alex winter joins me now, he's the director of this documentary, the youtube effect. alex, how did we get here? from charlie bit my finger videos to these conspiracy

theories and worse. the content that is really causing harm. >> it's causing real harm. it's an acceleration just in line with the acceleration of the internet age itself. everything moves so quickly and, as you said, the number one viewed website in the world is google, second is youtube, and really the scale is the issue. this is got so many more eyeballs on it than anything else in the planet in terms of scale. >> you interviewed a youtube creator who said that youtube is a beast that cannot be tamed once it has been unleashed and that has already happened. >> it's already happened. i also think that the language around how we deal with these issues has got to change a little bit. >> what does that mean? >> it needs are so focused on the idea of an algorithm, kind of what is going on in a.i. now.

what is an algorithm? it means almost anything, it has almost become meaningless. it's not really an algorithm or tech issue, it's a business model issue. if you go back and look at yellow journalism of over 100 years ago, profit driven content that was sensational by nature, that is exactly what you're dealing with here. it's an ad based model. it is just driving huge profits based on -- >> and winning. >> usually winning. >> so what will change that? >> time, legislation, anti-trust, breaking companies up that are too big. there is no easy answer. >> let's just break this down. time, time is not going to change anything. youtube is only getting bigger. legislation has not happened yet and what has youtube and google done all these in the last five years? got more lobbyists and lawmakers have done nothing. >> we talk about that in the film quite a bit. but what is also coming is an ability for people to sue constantly, and that will eventually start to weaken the feet of this foundation. that is why i said time, because that is what is happening in that time. but you are dealing with a beast and with a very deep pockets.

i do not think that they are holding nefarious, but there is a problem with the business model and i think, it is cheeky to say it is an algorithm because it prevents people from doing anything. >> also the average person is like an algorithm, what does that mean? but when a company says we are working to remove these conspiracy theories, what does that actually mean? >> it means nothing because they are not. [laughter] >> guess what, it's an easy thing to say. >> stuff is not being removed. you could argue that content moderation is hard, just two weeks ago they decided, they had a pretty good content moderation policy where they were moving all the stop the steal content that were saying the 2020 election was false. about ten days ago they decided to stop doing that and they just turned the floodgates back on. >> why? when they do these things, they must hate your guts. do you call them on the phone

and say yeah what's up? >> there is no they. have you even tried to call at&t today? it's impossible, you'll get an a irobot. there is no one to call. >> i'm pretty sure their communication department knows you. >> they may at this point. >> listen, he spent all of this time. when i even think about towards must be on the cutting room floor, what shocked you most in all of your research and everything you discovered. >> i think it was the scale. i came into this thing actually with a lot, and i have to some degree, respect for some of the things that they want you to have done that have been really positive, because it is a massive company and they have done a lot. but, the further you dig, the darker it got for us and the more clear it became a how powerful this particular platform is. it is not a social media platform it is also news, content, and search. so one thing i discovered was that youtube was more responsible for january sixth, for driving people towards that insurrection than any other platform. and that is a study that has got numbers attached to it. so why do we hear so much less about this platform than we do

about twitter and meta? i think there is a lot of reasons for that, some of which is the lobbying that you talked about, some of which is that it is so big that people don't know how to come out it. it is a problem. >> and on this monday night, alex winter is delivering you at home a nightmare. thank you so much, alex. >> there you go, a way to start your week. i will tell you, i have enjoyed my conversation with alex, scott, and all my guests tonight. it's great to be back here and i want to wish you all a very good and very safe night. from all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late with me. i'll see you at the end of tomorrow. ♪ upbeat music ♪ ♪ [ tires screeching ] director: cut! jordana, easy on the gas. force of habit. i gotta wrap this commercial, i think i'm late on my payment. it's okay, the general gives you a break when you need it.

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