all time, the real g.o.a.t. of country music. it is how her co-host garth brook introduced her at the country music awards but then the 77-year-old singer took it to the next level because she brought out an actual goat on stage in this perfect pink wagon. while the brown-and-white goat, claire, got her 15 minutes of fame, dolly parton acknowledged her play on words was a bit of a baaad joke. i think some people -- i think some people won a bet on that and some lost. don't bet against me. that will do it for this hour. make sure to join us for "chris jansing reports" every weekday 1:00 to 3:00 eastern on msnbc. have great weekend but stay tew as "katey tur reports." >> good to you with you. i'm katy tur. if you want to flee and you are fleeing oppression, you should

come. those were then-candidate joe biden's words to asylum seekers in 2019 as he slammed his opponent donald trump's immigration policies. today thousands of migrants waiting for their chance to cross the border are trying to heed that call. in the hours since title 42 was lifted we have seen an orderly processing mostly despite warning from the white house that the first few days could get chaotic. we are live in el paso and in san diego where many who have been in limbo waiting for months have now finally gotten through. the question is next where do they go now, and while the numbers so far seem manageable the white house is still facing legal pushback from both the aclu and some states. late last night a judge in florida sided with governor ron desantis and blocked the administration from carrying out key parts of its new immigration plan, which could lead to overcrowding. we're going to explain what will happen in a moment because

capacity is very much an issue, even beyond the border. this is according to officials. yesterday new york said it was full and we showed you mayor adam's move to bus migrants to north of new york city. today we are in chicago where it is mayor lori lightfoot is also warning there is neither enough space nor enough resources. so joining me to start us off is msnbc anchor jose diaz-balart. he is in el paso, texas, for us, and nbc news correspondent guad venegas is in san diego along with nbc correspondent chuck brewster who is in chicago. jose, tell us what it has been like there in the city you are in. there was an expectation it would be chaotic and that there would be a flood of migrants trying to get in. what have you seen in el paso? >> reporter: about 10,000 apprehensions yesterday, 9,000, 10,000. 11,000 apprehensions the day before.

11,000 apprehensions the day before that. these are record numbers, katy, but there is an ebb and flow and el paso is an example of that. let me show you where we are, and this is the church in el paso, sacred heart church. i will just take you just down the street, and as we cross the street you will see the bridge, one of the three bridges that connect juarez to el paso. you can see that there are a lot of cars on that bridge. you know what? that's the reality here for generations. el paso and juarez are many times considered two wings of one bird. there's so much communication and contact between these two towns. the two other bridges that unite the el paso area from juarez are also seeing this, but this is separate from what has been this

constant and persistent need of people to leave their countries and leave it all behind to try to reach the united states to request asylum. i spoke just yesterday with two different folks that stayed here overnight at the shelter that's been set up at the catholic church. one family who is asking for the american people to understand what they want to do is to contribute here, and another gentleman who just arrived from venezuela and now he is volunteering his time to help fellow migrants to pay it forward. here is part of our conversation. >> i just want to tell the american people that we are not all the same. we are not coming to do bad things. we came here to create a better future for our children. our little house, we just want to work, we want to do things

right. >> reporter: now you are volunteering to help others. >> translator: i can help because many have helped us along the way here. my dreams are that, just that, that i can help my family. >> reporter: do you think here you can do it? >> translator: i'm sure. if they give me the opportunity, i will. i am sure of that. i thank this refuge for opening its doors to us to receive me and all of the people that are here. >> reporter: that refuge is still working. it works 24 hours a day. you can see that's the outside of the refuge. portable toilets have been set up, some water faucets have been set up. there you see that mural, katy, well, you see jesus crucified and to the left of your screen our lady of guadalupe, the

patroness of latin america. you can see there she is shining a light, showing people where they can go in their future. >> reporter: i think so much of this coverage can sometimes seem it is being portrayed as a spectacle of a crisis, but i do understand the security concerns that people have and i understand the resourcing concerns. maybe people think there's not enough to go around in this country. but i hope that you can -- i hope you can straighten that out for us, jose, and i also hope you can bring us back to -- i mean you are showing us the families that are coming across that just want to work. i have a hard time because what -- something that is not expressed in this coverage a lot is that if you put yourself in a situation that they're in, if you did, if i did, we would be doing the exact same thing for our families. so much of that humanity, people just trying to make a life for themselves, gets lost. when you talk to economists in this country -- and this is why this can be such a frustrating

issue to cover it just as a political spectacle. economists say we need a bigger tax base, we need more people here contributing, paying taxes so we can pay social security going forward in the future as our birth rate is down. there are reasons to let more people in. i just wonder, do you hear those arguments ever or is it all just this de humanizing talk out there? >> reporter: look, out here there is no dehumanizing talk because here the talk is of men, women and children who have done the unimaginable to try to change their lot in life. katy, i just think, you know, let's take venezuela for example. it is a country that just over the past eight years more than 7 million people have been forced to leave that country. it is the second largest displacement of human beings ever in our history. cuba has a dictatorship going now for 64 years. haiti is undergoing a process by

which there is no functioning government and violence is the law of the land. how do these people decide that it is better to leave that, risking death than to stay one more day there? you know what? you were just saying what would we as parents not do for our children, but when you hear the horrible things that people go through, through the jungles and then their journey through mexico to the man, woman and child, they say to me, boy, as bad as the jungle was, as bad as my life in haiti, cuba or venezuela, nicaragua, everywhere was, there's nothing worse than how we were treated and exploited in our journey through mexico. now they have reached here with the dream of making a better life for their children. that, if you distill it, is what

this is all about. >> jose, thank you very much for reminding us of what it means to make that journey and the desperation you would need, the desperate straits you would need to be in to be willing to make that journey. we have seen that image all morning of the father putting the baby in the suitcase to carry the baby, to wade through the river to carry the baby. you just don't do that unless you are desperate. guad, i know you are in san diego, also one of the largest border crossings in this country. tell me what it has been like there. >> reporter: katy, we have the port of san ysidro, the port of entry here which is one of the largest. so we are about a mile away. this is the area in the border wall where migrants have been camping out. jose mentioned a lot of these countries where migrants come from, venezuela, cuba and nicaragua, countries where as jose said when we talk to people who came from those countries they tell us, there's just nothing for me there so i would rather go through the jungle and

then cross through central america and mexico and come and camp out for five days than return, right. so those are the same stories we are hearing from the individuals that are here. but it is important to keep in mind as we try to understand what can happen with the change in immigration policy now that title 42 is lifted. you know, katy, it is interesting to see what border patrol is going to do, what customs and border protection will do now that we have a new immigration policy. according to dhs secretary mayorkas, anyone that arrived at the u.s. not using a lawful pathway then does not qualify for asylum. so under the definition this means all of the individuals that are camped out here and in other parts of the border wall then would not be granted the opportunity to request asylum in the u.s. one of my colleagues from telemundo here reached out to border patrol just minutes ago, having a conversation, and border patrol answered that message saying the individuals that are here now, although they've been here for five days, will be processed under title 8. that's the new policy. so essentially, katy, the

individuals that have been camped out here waiting to request asylum, if they stick to the policy they've now put in place and as we've been informed, then that would mean all of these individuals did not use what is considered by the government as a lawful path of entry. so then they would be expelled back to mexico. so those are some of the questions because these are, like jose said, people that came with arguments to seek asylum in the united states. a lot of people i speak to here have sponsors in the u.s., family members or friends who are waiting with a place where they say they can stay with money to buy them a plane ticket so they can get to that location, but they really have no idea that they could be processed under this new immigration policy which means that the way of doing it now is no longer lawful. these are some of the things that will develop in the next few days as we see these migrants being processed and what the numbers are like. the numbers are expelled back to mexico, and those allowed to remain in the united states, mexico has said they will accept

migrants from other countries to be expelled back into mexico. i have spoken to a lot of migrants from venezuela, nick recall awe. in tijuana we were there and they told us i crossed, i didn't even get an interview, they just expelled me right back. we will see what happens with the migrants, katy. >> guad, thank you. let's talk about chicago, shaq. why are there so many migrants in chicago? >> reporter: because of the program run by governor abbott to bus or even fly migrants to cities like chicago, like new york, like pennsylvania or like philadelphia rather. what you are hearing is these cities are at a breaking point, that they don't have the housing available to house migrants in a humane way. i am in a warehouse right now that has been converted into a makeshift shelter. you see some images there. that's from people who are actually in a police station, in the lobby of a police station earlier this week. this shelter was built to kind of add some relief to that, to give people some better conditions, but i can tell you it is a scramble here.

they're literally building showers here right now so folks don't have to go to the park and use the showers at the fieldhouse. so you just get a sense of the scrambling that you are seeing here. but right now you have a shelter that's at capacity and you also have a police station that's also full. so officials saying they're at a breaking point. that's what you are hearing from everyone involved in this. you have people donating food, donating supplies, donating medical assistance. i want you to listen to a bit of my conversation with a fourth year medical student who has been going around to the makeshift shelters to offer medical assistance and assess. listen to what she has been seeing. >> they have back pain and other orthopedic issues related to sleeping on the ground, also walking for a long time, diaper rash in babies, the colds i mentioned and fungal infections from wet conditions. >> they're not having a good time. so even things like over-the-counter meds are

helpful when you are sneezing and coughing all day, surrounded by a lot of people. >> reporter: the message that you are hearing from people is they want to help, they want to welcome but they don't have the resources. they think it is a politically driven crisis because of the bussing they're seeing happen. >> we haven't seen any moves made in congress for a long time on this issue, bipartisan moves. shaq brewster. shaq, thank you very much. coming up, the man who put jordan neely in that fatal chokehold on a new york city chokehold is arrested. how strong is the da's case? a former ada joins us to explain. plus, he is still defaming her. so will e. jean carroll file another suit? what she is saying today. and it is a country where civilians love guns, so what happened in serbia to make thousands of people voluntarily give them up? we're back in 60 seconds.

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after two weeks of protests, the man accused of killing 24-year-old jordan neely in a subway has been charged. daniel penny, a former marine, seen on video placing neely in a fatal chokehold will face second degree manslaughter charge, just one of them. neely's death has prompted a reexamination on how big cities treat the homeless and mentally ill. it is a reckoning neely's family pleaded for this morning. >> we cannot allow that type of aggression on a whim's notice. we cannot allow that type of judgment and we cannot allow that type of crime to happen without consequences. so on behalf of the family, we are asking for everyone to continue to support the process of justice moving forward because that's the only thing that's going to change the way that we look at people who are houseless, the way we look at people who are in distress, and the way that we look at one another. >> joining me now is nbc news

correspondent rehema ellis. walk us through what he has been charged with and whether he pleaded this morning. he didn't, did he? >> reporter: he didn't enter a plea we know of but he was charged with a second degree manslaughter case and he was ordered to put up $100,000 bond, of which his parents said they would guarantee that money, and then he was allowed out. he had gone into that courtroom, his hands in handcuffs, and he is let out a free man. now he will be coming back on the middle of july. one of the things we have not heard, we have seen no public appearances from district attorney bragg, but he put out a full statement that says essentially that three are certain there is enough probable cause to have made this arrest of daniel penny and that the investigation is ongoing, that it included a number of witnesses, the eyewitness statements from people who were on the train, a review of photos and videotape, of cellphone videotape from people, and a

discussion with the medical examiner's office. katy, as you know, one of the things that happened is that after the medical examiner determined that the cause of death was a homicide caused by the time that he was spent in that chokehold, that led to this outcry from people in the community saying that there's no reason that daniel penny should have been a free man without being arrested. to that point daniel penny's attorney has come out issuing a statement himself about his client who says he intended no harm that day. his attorney is saying that his client risked his own life for safety of the good -- for his own safety and for the good of fellow passengers, and the unfortunate result was unintended and unforeseen. they are confident that once all of the facts and circumstances surrounding this tragic incident are brought to bear mr. penny will be fully absolved of any wrongdoing. in the interim penny had to surrender his passport, stay in new york and get approval if he wants to leave the city of

new york. katy. >> rehema ellis, thank you very much. joining me now is nbc news legal analyst and former manhattan district attorney katherine christian. katherine, it is good to have you here. talk to me about the second degree manslaughter charge. why did the da choose that one? >> well, many people have said why not murder, why not murder, and i will tell you why. under new york law murder is defined as the intent to kill. so the prosecution would have to prove that the defendant in this case, mr. penny, intended to cause the death of mr. neely, that it was his conscious objective to cause the death. and on the basis of -- and we have only seen it on the video. in my experience upward 30 years in criminal practice in new york, that was never going to be the charge. manslaughter, which is charged here, the reckless manslaughter requires that the prosecutor prove that the defendant was

aware of and consciously disregarded a substantial and unjustifiable risk that death would occur. so you see it is not an intent, they're not saying that he meant to do it, but he was reckless and that's why the death of mr. neely occurred. so that's why they chose that charge. i also would clarify it hasn't been indicted. this was a criminal complaint. the case is still being investigated. it also helps that mr. penny made bail because under new york state law if he was incarcerated on bail the prosecutor would have to indict this case, present this case to a grand jury by next thursday. so they may have more time to take their time and do it right. >> why do they need that time? >> because as i just saw the statement that was put up there of d.a. bragg, there are a lot of witnesses that they have to talk to. so everyone who was in that subway car at the time that this incident was happening is

important. we don't know if they found all of them, but we need -- we, the prosecutor needs to speak to them because they saw, they heard what happened. the videotape which everyone has watched only shows the ending. it doesn't show the beginning and the middle, so we -- they need time to speak to those witnesses and look at -- there are probably other people who had their phones up and were taking a video. look at those videos. there apparently were 911 calls. you want to listen to the 911 calls and hopefully be able to identify the people who made the 911 calls and then you can come in and have them interview them and have them testify. that's going to take time. >> the defense is arguing that mr. penny was acting to protect himself and protect those on the subway. what do they need to show to help bolster their case, to make it harder for the da's office to prosecute him? >> well, it is actually interesting. under new york state law the self-defense defense, which is

actually called justification in new york, is very friendly to a criminal defendant. i'm sure criminal justice reform advocates want to keep it that way. basically the defendant does not have to prove that he was justified. the prosecutor has to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that he wasn't justified. now, that doesn't mean that, you know, the defendant just remains quiet. he actually has to show, you know, and there has to be evidence that he had a reasonable belief, that he honestly believed that he needed to use this physical force to protect himself or others, but it is still the burden on the prosecution to disprove that he was not justified. that's the unique thing to new york law. >> it is just a really depressing and sad case all around. >> very sad. >> catherine, thank you very much for joining us. ahead, voluntarily giving up their guns. what happened in serbia that made gun owners think twice. first though, lesson not

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rigged deal, fake story, made up, she's a whack job. donald trump is still saying the same things he lost a defamation case over, so will e. jean carroll sue him again? carroll's lawyers telling "the new york times" she is thinking about it at the same time there are real questions about some other comments donald trump made regarding both january 6th and the classified documents found at mar-a-lago, comments that could be legally damaging. joining me now is criminal defense foreign danny cevallos and former fbi general counsel and former member of the mueller probe, both nbc news analysts. danny, let's start on e. jean carroll. when he said the things he said about her the other night on that cnn town hall, i remember watching and thinking he just lost a defamation suit over

this, what is he doing? is there no recourse for e. jean carroll? can the judge change the amount of the punitive damages? is there something that can happen if somebody found liable for something continues to do the thing that they were found -- i know guilty is not the root term but they did. >> liable. two or three smart attorneys i know immediately after the town hall reached out and said the same thing. this is an issue essentially established in the law. if it has been determined in this case with these litigants there's no reason why e. jean carroll can't go back to court and bring this again and possibly have very little to do in terms of meeting her burden of proof. i have to say this. on the one side, this case aside, as a general rule i am skeptical of the theory of defamation that when somebody denies something -- now, if you are trump and you are calling someone whacked out and crazy and a liar, that gets closer to defamation. but i think we do need to be

careful of this variety of defamation where somebody denies allegations that's akin to calling them a liar. i have seen lawsuits like that. i think it is a slippery slope. fortunately for trump there's nothing slippery about his slopes. he is very direct. he goes way overboard with language. >> she is a whack job he said. >> right. he isn't simply saying i deny these allegations. because we don't want to be in a world where -- >> until the moment they're released until the moment they spend the rest of their life in jail. >> exactly right. we don't want to live in a world where if you continue to deny something, unless you plead guilty which is not the case here, trump should be able to continue to say i never met this person. that i don't have a problem with. if you are calling her whack job, liar, things like that, that gets into defamation and that issue has been decided. >> and she would have to file this suit in new hampshire, right? >> yes. yeah, in theory. i mean usually the rule is the

situs of the injury. when you are talking about the modern era with the internet and broadcast there's an argument to be made -- and as plaintiff's attorney you are always looking for the best forum and she would love to keep it in new york if she could. let's talk about the classified documents. let's play what he said the other night on the classified documents and then i will ask you, andrew, what it means for jack smith. >> just so you understand, i had every right to do it. i didn't make a secret of it. you know, the boxes were stationed outside of the white house. people were taking pictures of the gsa, the various people. >> i have to ask -- >> i took the documents i'm allowed to. they become automatically declassified when i took them. >> is that going to be a problem, a legal problem for donald trump, andrew? >> so, yes. i mean there's a reason that donald trump did not appear in front of the mueller probe. there's a reason he didn't testify in the carroll case. it is because when he talks he gets himself into legal peril.

you could be sure that his lawyers were cringing at what he was saying. just remember the carroll case was only allowed to go forward is because the former president repeated the defamatory statements after he was president. this is a fellow who really does not think about his legal peril when he speaks. so what does it mean in terms of what he has just said? the case that everyone had thought at mar-a-lago was about was about illegal retention of documents at mar-a-lago, that he retained them, but it wasn't clear that they -- that the government had a case about illegal taking of the documents from the white house. in fact, his lawyers had said that the taking of them was actually inadvertent. so everyone is sort of focusing on what happened at mar-a-lago, but here you have the former president saying, hey, i took 'em. it was out in the open.

that is not great for him, both because it expands the case that jack smith could bring and it creates venue in washington, d.c. where i can tell you the former president does not want his case. he would want this case, if at all, in florida. >> wait, hold on. explain that. it creates venue in washington, d.c. is that because of what he said about the documents being outside, everybody could see them, that means -- explain why that means the venue would be d.c. >> absolutely. so if the crime that's being alleged is that he improperly retained the documents at mar-a-lago, that the crime is about retention in florida and obstruction in florida, that means the case would normally, unless there's some odd exception, has to be brought in florida. but if the crime is also taking illegally the documents from the white house, that it wasn't

inadvertent, that it was taken against the law from the white house to florida, well, the white house is in washington, d.c., meaning that there's venue there. and to back up, in the law you have to bring a case, a criminal case where there is proper venue. that's actually in the united states constitution. so here if this is expanded, the case, it makes it that much easier for jack smith to bring the case in washington, d.c., which is -- i think everyone would agree is a much more favorable locus for the government than florida would be. >> let me ask you one more thing also having to do with washington, d.c. mark pomeranz, formerly of the manhattan d.a.'s other who wrote a book about the decision not to initially charge donald trump was subpoenaed by a house committee and he showed up because he had to, and he pleaded the fifth repeatedly. he was called an obstructive witness by one of the republican lawmakers. what do you make of his pleading

the fifth, andrew? >> well, first, i don't think that's the right label. when somebody pleads the fifth and they have a constitutional right to do so, that is not obstructive. that is an assertion of a constitutional right, whether we like the person or dislike the person. that is why we have the constitutional right. i am actually surprised that mark pomeranz did so. he articulated in a statement that it was based on statements made to him by the manhattan district attorney's office. so he certainly has a good faith belief. i'm just surprised somebody as imminent as mark pomeranz with a very storied career, the u.s. attorney's office, a partner with paul wise is taking the fifth. at this point the ball is very much in the court of the house. they would have to go to court and compel his testimony and there would be a lot of legal challenges to that. they could also seek to immunize

him, which would, you know, get rid of the fifth amendment and force him to testify. so it will be interesting to see what, if anything, they do here. >> interesting. andrew weissmann, danny cevallos, gentlemen, thank you very much. coming up, two mass shootings in two days. what gun owners in serbia are doing voluntarily to make sure it does not happen again. plus, the meeting was called off. what kevin mccarthy says happened to his schedule debt limit meeting at the white house, supposed to be today. like when i decided to host family movie nights. miracle-ear made it easy. i just booked an appointment and a certified hearing care professional evaluated my hearing loss and helped me find the right device calibrated to my unique hearing needs. now i enjoy every moment. the quiet ones and the loud ones. make a sound decision. call 1-800 miracle now, and book your free hearing evaluation.

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one of the most heavily armed countries in the entire world is saying never again after two deadly back-to-back mass shootings that killed 17 people. serbians have handed over thousands of illegal guns and ammunition in the first four days of a month-long nationwide amnesty. serbia's president announced so far more than 9,000 unregistered weapons, more than 460,000 rounds of ammunition, 173 bombs or explosive devices, and 711 bomb or rocket launchers have been turned over to authorities. joining me now is nbc news fortunate correspondent ali arouzi. putting aside just the eye-popping description of all of the weapons that have been turned over, why did serbia which has the third largest gun ownership in the world, why did

they decide, did serbians decide enough was enough? why were these mass shootings a bridge too for for them? >> reporter: hey, katy. these two mass shootings that claimed the lives of 17 people shocked the country to its core. shootings of this nature are rare in the balklands. then two in a week and one in a school where the shooter and pretty "all of the victims were minors, this prompted the president to announce a slew of new gun control measures while pledging to carry out what he called an almost total disarmament of serbia. the government said it would introduce amendments to tighten conditions for keeping and carrying small firearms and aimed at reducing legally held number of firearms by about 20%, institute checks on those holding weapons including medical, psychiatric and drug test, and increased penalties for weapons on offenses. so a lot of strict new laws being put in to really put people off having guns.

serbia's president said this amnesty would last from the 8th of may until the 8th of june for people to surrender their weapons and he had a news conference this morning where he said, as you mentioned, 9,000 legal and illegal weapons have been selected. over 400,000 rounds of ammunition and hundreds of types of explosives including rockets and bombs. like you said, that may sound like a lot of weapons but that's because serbia has a lot of firearms leftover from the balkans wars in the 1990s. as you said, it is the third highest ranking gun ownership in the world after the united states. >> and the united states, yemen and serbia. ali arouzi. thank you very much. what happened behind closed doors to cancel today's debt limit meeting between president biden and speaker kevin mccarthy and what it signals about a default. my bottle of choice?

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(bobby) my store and my design business? we're exploding. but my old internet, was not letting me run the show. so, we switched to verizon business internet. they have business grade internet, nationwide. (vo) make the switch. it's your business. it's your verizon. today's meeting between president joe biden and congressional leaders has been postponed. the question we have is why. joining me now is nbc news senior capitol hill correspondent garrett haake and political contributor jake sher men. garrett, why? >> part of the reason is simple. they weren't going to be able to have everybody there. mitch mcconnell was not able to

attend today but part of the reason is more complicated. it is usually not the members themselves striking the deals but their staffers. these underlying staff negotiations just aren't close enough to generating anything that could be described as a deal or a break through to merit putting the principals in the room. you could kind of hear and sense the frustration that mccarthy has we have gotten to this point when we spoke to reporters yesterday to him retreating back to blaming the white house with where we are. here is some of what he said about this delay yesterday. >> i have not seen from there a seriousness of the white house that they want a deal. it seems like they want a default more than they want a deal. >> now, the speaker knows his own chief of staff is currently negotiating with the white house about getting to a deal, but this is the kind of posturing you are probably going to see right up until perhaps the moment that there is, in fact, some kind of deal. >> so, jake, what is going to be happening this weekend? we are so close to defaulting.

is any movement expected over the weekend? >> yes, so there will be -- well, i don't know if there will be movement, katy. there will be human beings meetings from the white house and capitol hill. that's some news that the aides will be meeting tomorrow in the capitol. it is going to rain in washington tomorrow, so maybe they just figure there's nothing else to do. but, listen, garrett is right. you know, we wrote this this morning in ""punchbowl news" a.m." but if these negotiations were at this stage in february they would be optimistic a deal could be reached. but at this point 19 or 20 days ahead of the debt limit deadline, so it is not as if there's been zero movement but they don't have much time to do this. then you get into the thornier questions. how is this going to move through congress? is it going to move in one piece? is it going to move in two pieces? if it moves in two pieces, then that means it needs extra time in the senate. everything in the senate takes a

week. this will take a week in the house. you had cbo, the congressional budget office, this morning concurring with the treasury department and saying early june is a reasonable estimate for the debt limit. now, aides in the negotiations told me today that they expect at some point in the next couple of days they will get another estimate from treasury, they hope, to see if it is still at june or maybe it is at june 15th. if it get to june 15th, most people estimate they could go until july. so there's just a lot of uncertainty right now, katy. >> garrett, what about a plan b? i know there were some plan bs on the table the table from dem were saying that they just can't let this happen. where do we stand? where do they stand on flushing those out? >> look, there's theoretical plans b through q here, probably, and the problem is, none of them have really been tried, in theory, there is an opportunity for what is called a discharge petition that would potentially get a clean debt

ceiling lift on the floor by going around mccarthy. the problem with that is, they would still have to pass the senate and there aren't the votes there, and then there is the kind of more gimmicky sort of untried options everywhere from invoking the 14th amendment, which would allow the president to blow through the debt ceiling by basically saying we're going to ignore, the full faith and credit of the united states should not be questioned. theoretically works on paper but almost certainly challenged in the courts and the markets would freak out all the way to plan q would be the mint the coin option which comes up every time we have these conversations. but even the treasury secretary said i think overnight last time, we heard public comments from her this is ultimately going to come down to congress voting to raise the debt limit. that's how this ends. it is a question of when. >> it is ultimately going to come down to that. what happens when we are, it's june 10th, jake, and you say it's a two-prong process and it needs a week in the senate, a week in the house, they could obviously expedite it, right? they can do things faster than a week, right?

>> as our friends say, easy sometimes when you coast along but like it or not, something always seems to go wrong. i think yes, they could expedite it but everything in the senate needs unanimous consent, so if one person doesn't like it, they're not going to get unanimous consent. it's not going to get through there quickly. so you know, yes, theoretically, they could, theoretically the house doesn't need 72 hours to review legislation, but that, those kinds of maneuvers come with their own sense of risk, so you're just talking about getting, i mean getting a deal like this together, getting it through the house, between may, what are we, may 12th, and june 1, is difficult, and then when you get into june, right, and the market's dropping and you're starting theoretically, if the debt limit has been breached, you're starting to default on certain accounts, it's -- you're in uncharted territory here, but people can keep saying to me,

you know, this has never happened before, it's not going to happen this time. nothing happens until it happens for the first time, and we've seen lots of firsts in the last ten years in politics, and i don't have any reason to think that we're going to default but it's certainly not out of the realm of possibility at this point. >> i don't want to see that first, i don't know about you guys. >> i hear you. >> garrett haake, i am just not up for the variables that might ripple through our economy. garrett haake, thank you very much. and under the cool shade of the banana tree, a child of the 20th century, jake sherman. coming up, what is happening to new jersey senator bob menendez? and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about

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business in new jersey. the new subpoenas including the one delivered to a new jersey mayor, are unrelated to any allegations involving the meat company. both menendez and the company's owners have denied any wrongdoing. joining me now is nbc news justice and intelligence correspondent ken dilanian. bring us up to speed on this investigation. >> reporter: it does look like this investigation is expanding with these new subpoenas. as you said, two sources told our wnbc colleague that the new subpoenas were not related to the meat company the original focus of the probe but instead seeking information about legislative changes in new jersey. and one of the new subpoenas went to a powerful new jersey mayer who is now saying, he issued a statement saying we cooperate. it is not clear what prompted these new information demands bit fbi but it doesn't seem like good news for the senator. as you will recall, the investigation started over whether questions menendez and

his wife improperly took cash and gifts from the owners of that new jersey meat business. and the senator of course has denied wrongdoing, as have the company owners. the justice department and the fbi declined to comment. one of the big questions is how that meat company won an exclusive worldwide contract back in 2019 with egypt for islamic certification of imports. multiple sources telling us the senator's wife is friends with the company's owners. and senator me mendez of course chairs the foreign affairs committee which oversees billions of dollars of annual u.s. aid to egypt. this is coming five years ago when me men nez beat federal bribery charges in a separate case that ended in a hung jury which the justice department deciding not to retry him. the senator after that was admonished by the ethics committee which determined that he broke senate ruling and federal law and won re-election in 2018 to a third full term. >> so this is an investigation, the other investigation he was under, he was, he ended up being acquitted for the alleged wrongdoing.

and this is one of the reasons why kevin mccarthy, the speaker of the house, has said he will allow george santos to remain in the house, because he said this has happened before, there are members of congress, they have been indicted, and it's not until they're convicted that they get kicked out of congress. so this is one of the examples he used. ken dilanian, thank you very much. and that right there is going to do it for me today. on this friday. happy mother's day, everybody. make sure you go out and buy flowers. "deadline white house" starts right now. hi, everyone. happy friday. it's 4:00 in new york. you know what i want for mother's day? my very own silo. see, the response to criticism of the decision from the top of the company to platform or publish known falsities from a twice-impeached, once-indicted ex president, liable for sexual abuse and defamation is at that the problem is not with