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indictment of donald trump on thursday donald trump became the first former commander in chief in history to face a criminal indictment. that's after a grand jury in new york voted to indict the former president as part of manhattan district attorney's alvin bragg's investigation into a hush money payment made into adult film star stormy daniels back in 2016 now that indictment is currently sealed, and that means we and a whole lot of people do not know the specific charges or charge that have been levied against donald trump we do know bragg has been focused on a felony charge of falsifying business records which carries a maximum prison sentence of four years donald trump denies any wrongdoing, denies having an affair with stormy daniels, and he is presumed innocent until and unless proven guilty in a court of law that trial has not yet occurred. bragg's investigation is one of many against the ex-president.

back in 2018 cohen, trump's former lawyer and fixer, was ntenced to three years in prison after pleading guilty to nine criminal counts including one related to the payment made to stormy daniels. cohen said he made that payment $130,000 at trump's direction. trump said cohen made it on his own. here's cohen responding to the criticism being levied against this specific case on cnn. >> i always call this the capone theory, the al capone theory they got him on tax evasion. if that crime, don, was enough for me to be charged, fined, convicted, and sent to prison why am i any different than donald trump >> back with me once again nbc's vaughn hilliard live from west palm beach, florida, which is not far from mar-a-lago. and gary, it's quiet it's nighttime behind you, but

there's activity there insofar as there are law enforcement officials from kind of every level, you said earlier almost every branch of law enforcement in this country trying to coordinate how a president based in florida surrenders to the district attorney and law enforcement in new york. we're expecting that is probably going to happen on tuesday what's under way right now >> yeah, right now there's meetings happening -- well, not right now but tomorrow there's going to be meetings happening it's going to be a very deliberate and very thought out process. the former president is going to leave mar-a-lago, motorcade the nine minutes it takes to get to palm beach international airport, and then he's going to take off in his trump branded plane and head to a new york area airport at that point he's either going to motorcade or take a chopper to lower manhattan where he's going to then make his way through the streets of lower

manhattan and district courthouse area where he's going to be arraigned. that's the judge that dealt with the allan weisselberg trump order trial. allan weisselberg is in rikers right now because of this judge. 2:00, 2:15 that is what's going to happen in the new york district attorney's area. security of all areas as we've mentioned, nypd, secret service, joint terrorism task force all working together on this to make sure the former president can leave here sifly and get to new york and get back safely ali? >> what do we know, vaughn, about the situation here in new york city? you've been reporting that police here were informed that everybody should show up tomorrow morning, in a few hours before sunrise fully dressed, fully ready. >> right nypd is on alert, by sun rise every single officer here who has a uniform has been ordered

to put it on tomorrow here we are expecting here over the next four days heightened security i saw alvin bragg, his motorcade depart there we've got the criminal court building there where we expect donald trump to show up for this arraignment right next to -- you see the motorcade leading right next to the manhattan district court office they've already got the fencing up and around there are, and security over the last week has been setting up. that was the initial story from jonathan dean. secret service has ingdicated they intend to try to keep donald trump out of the public eye as much as possible for obvious security concerns, but there's still a lot of question marks about what we can expect >> do we know because there was some discussion when donald trump first posted that he was going to be arrested, gary, that maybe for political purposes donald trump wanted the equivalent of a perp walk.

maybe he want to be handcuffed in front of people do we know what happens here and whether he has a choice in the matter >> nobody has reported that. that's something nobody had confirmed. donald trump put it on truth social and everyone else just ran with the idea. so that's one part in terms of donald trump and what we could expect, the guy loves a show he used to host a reality show on nbc the guy loves the idea of being out there, and frankly being the victim here. he views himself as a victim many people across this country they see him as an indicted former president he views himself as a victimized former president he's been making that very clear on his truth social accounts, on his campaign statements, on his super-pack statements throughout the evening, even saying so far as a witch hunt, calling it democratic run cities are out to

get him. he believes he's being attacked and he believes the democrats in this case he says are the ones trying to get to his supporters, he's just standing in the way. if you talk to his supporters down here, ali, donald trump can do no wrong, and they'll be lined up as he goes past them on tuesday, thousands of them will likely be lined up on the bridge that connects west palm beach to palm beach and he'll likely make some sort of show whether a wave or something more than that as he moves past them >> vaughn is sticking with me. we're going to bring in charles coleman, a former brooklyn prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. thanks to all of you for being here i want to go back to after donald trump did put this post out he was going to be arrested this past tuesday and that didn't come to pass, that all sorts of things had happened there were pictures of donald trump that he reposted on truth social and took down of him with a baseball bat and alvin bragg,

the district attorney on the other side of that lawyers across the board told me they told me he'd crossed the line there and in a normal criminal case that might even be chargeable, the idea of intimidating or threatening your prosecuting attorney >> that sentiment is a justified one. i do think there's a notion of a threat levied against a public official, but in a situation like this i don't see alvin bragg proceeding on those charges and here's why he understands the implications here and i think he wants to go on nothing but the actual facts and evidence he doesn't want to seem as though he's using his own position to try to bully or even defend against the bully tactics of donald trump, so i don't anticipate he's going to lean into that even though in another situation it's very likely he possibly could i want to get your take on the

attacks -- and by the way their relentless the violent threats donald trump has posted have been taken down, but the general idea of alvin bragg as a politicized left wing left-wing socialist attorney >> i agree i don't think alvin bragg will include in this indictment the threatening comments by the president, ex-president. he wants the case to be focused on the facts of the case and not on him he wants to focus on what happened with the pay off and the violation of the criminal code, specifically having to do with the pay offs. but that doesn't mean there aren't charges out there there are harassment charges there are perhaps inciting a riot depending on what happened, all kinds of things that could be charged, but iagree he won' do it. i am worried -- i am worried

about his safety i am worried about a lone actor because of the rhetoric coming out of trump, and it's offensive, and it's -- it's scary. nobody should have to pay the price again because donald trump is afraid that the law is coming for him. >> charles, do you have sort of memory of. and look, maybe it happens and i just don't know about it because we don't cover every story with this intensity do you have memory of the prosecutors in a criminal trial, high profile trial coming under this level of attack there's a lot of stuff going on with alvin bragg not about politics there's language used against him that seems to be racist in origin, calling him an animal, and soros stuff seems to be an

anti-semitic trope >> of course we're talking about donald trump here so everything is at a magnified level. we're talking about someone who doesn't mind leaning into racisttropes, anti-semitism. so these things are escalated at a level truly unprecedented. i can tell you when you're prosecuting criminals, there's always the danger someone is going to target you instead of trying to deal with the court and the justice system as is that's only to say it is not something that is new. there's always the danger you may need heightened security because you are on the prosecutor on a very high profile case of course i've seen that before but at this level you're talking about someone who has a huge bull horn and shown himself unafraid and unabashed and without any sort of shame. >> donald trump denies the charges. we don't know what the charges are but he denies them

he denies he had an affair with stormy daniels, denies he did anything wrong here. we've got a court case, we've got a trial. he's acting as though -- he's priming his base, kind of like the way he primed everyone for the election being fraudulent months and months before the election he's setting up the fact it doesn't matter what the result of the trial will be, he's presumed innocent until proven guilty he's going somewhere else with this he's not talking about his guilt or innocence he's talking about the system. >> right, and he always does that, but this is a different situation fongo be in control of the situation and looping back to your last question about the threats to the prosecutor, the judge is going to be in a position to manage his behavior in some way if he does not -- if he starts to continue to threaten. and the court system is going to go forward he can say whatever he wants

you know, he has to stand there in the court and he's assigned a number and he's fingerprinted and photographed he's going to lose control of it in a way he's not accustomed to losing control he no longer has the same level of, you know, levers of power. the levers of power are now in the hands of the judge and not him. it's going to be a very different situation that he's used to, and frankly i'm looking forward to it. >> vaughn, there's been some reporting tonight that trump world was sort of caught unaware, which is kind of interesting because again it was donald trump's post on truth social that got us all thinking that a charge or indictment is imminent but there's a whole lot of reporting they didn't know this was coming tonight >> no, and it wasn't until later on this evening until trump's attorney actually got a call from the district attorney's office, that is how this process plays out. and so much of his own speculation was exactly that and i think it's important, you

know, when we're talking about the judge being in control of the situation, donald trump -- he has a chance to go before the grand jury and present his version of events. >> that's why we -- that's what caused us to think an indictment was coming because that's typically the last step. >> he was indicted, and he chose not to donald trump refused to talk to non-right-wing press there's a series of questions about this investigation and others which he frankly has not addressed key questions. for donald trump to the extent one can try to control the narrative, you can try to do that by answering truthfully or at least answering directly, and he's refused to do that at any point, so that is where now there are going to be key questions we will be hearing at court and now we will as the public be able to hear the public evidence and the public testimony against him. >> yeah, charles, what's the significance of that because vaughn's made this case a couple times we don't know what the charges are. we don't know how many there

are, what form they're taking, so in my world it's a little hard to form complete opinions on the whole thing until someone's read a document to see what it is and see what information the grand jury had to base their vote a whole lot of people tonight have made a decision about what this is, but we don't know >> we don't know, and we are all waiting with baited breath to see what exactly citizen trump has been charged with once this indictment is unsealed what i can say when it comes to the falsified business records that's perhaps the most straightforward charge we can anticipate likely being on this indictment it's the charge alvin bragg has oftentimes engaged in. so that is fairly routine for them it's also like i said the most straightforward charge you can anticipate seeing because it really is based on the paperwork. we've all seen the checks. we've all seen his signature on the checks, and we have now the testimony of michael cohen to basically corroborate what is in those different pieces of evidence so i anticipate that

but i also anticipate he's going to likely have something more in the intitldictment, and the potential difficulty regarding this case, i do believe the documents case is very straightforward. i do believe that is going to be a part of the indictment, but we will have to wait and see what else is there before we can form a complete opinion >> cynthia, are there things th judge and d.a. bragg need to do given the microscope on this case, or have you witnessed it do they do they job exactly the way they should and this would be the trial of citizen trump the way it would be the trial of anyone else? bragg's office has charged the falsification of business records as a felony account 117 times, so this is not their first rodeo. >> i'm hoping they do it the same rodeo they always do because that's exactly what should happen. in terms of figuring out

exactly -- so getting the public evidence, in federal court it's much more common we would get an indictment where there would be a lot of details and a lot of information balls sometimes in federal court you can take that indictment, it can go back to the jury at the time of jury deliberations. so you put more in it to explain exactly what happened. it's almost a way of arguing later for the jury typically in new york courts there isn't as much information, and it can be very short and sweet, which would mean we still wouldn't have the information for a while. we don't know what type of indictment this would be, but i'm hoping it's an indictment that has a little flesh to it so we get new information about actly what they're thinking. >> more coverage, breaking news coverage of former president donald trump's indictment after this break to defend against erosion and cavities. i think that this product is a gamechanger for my patients- it really works.

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your brother has landed in the dark lands. they're under bowser's control. [ screaming ] hang on, luigi. [ ominous music playing ] [ screaming ] yes! fire! [ chuckling ] . we're back with our late night early morning coverage of donald trump's indictment. back with me vaughn hilliard, charles coleman, civil rights attorney, and cynthia oxny, former federal prosecutor and msnbc legal analyst. welcome back to all of you vaughn, donald trump we don't know if he's gone to sleep tonight but he's been up for a long time. he's been posting to his own platform, truth social what's going on there?

>> i should say just about an hour ago, about 3:00 a.m., he posted a quote where's hunter. clearly this is someone still up here in the middle of the night. i would think that would mean he's unlikely to go to sleep since the indictment but also got up to post, quote, cities are not going to choose republican nominee for the next president of the united states his line about this is this is democrats form of, quote, election interference. this for donald trump is all coming at a time in which he is facing an onslaught of investigations, beyond this one we've got the lawsuits -- >> that's right, we've got a list of these. most of these are criminal cases although the new york james investigation.

and there's this one, the hush money payment to stormy daniels, so there's a lot going on here rick wilson is joining us as well, former republican strategist, the co-founder of the lincoln project. rick, i've been watching all sorts of things tonight. on fox news the banner throughout tucker carlson's entire show was simply third world banana republic. that was the theme donald trump is part of his statement tonight when it happened says these thugs and radical left monsters have just indicated the president of the united states of america, i'm reading it as written. all caps, this is an attack on our country the likes of which has never been seen before, is like wise a continuing attack on our once free and fair elections. the usa is now a third world

nation, a nation in serious decline, so sad, exclamation rick, an attack on our country, an attack on our elections not quite sure how this -- he's being accused of what might be an election violation. i'm not sure how this has become an attack on our lections. >> folks like tucker, folks like donald trump they're willing to tell their audience anything they're willing to tell their audience 240 plus years of adherence to the rule of law and constitution in this country suddenly gets to fly out the window because they don't like an outcome based on the criminality and the actions of donald trump he's not a victim here he did these things, and his line of defense is to try to have this ahistorical fantasy that as don jr. said -- i'm sorry you guys if you crack a book this is absolutely ludicrous in every way, but it does tell you there's a reality

bubble that surrounds the maga folks and blocks facts from getting in and trump is creating that reality once again. >> so i am looking throughout -- i've had a stack of papers in my hand all night it's tweets and comments from republican elected and democrats. i saw one from don bacon of nebraska he says i trust our legal system, there are checks and balances of juries, judges and appeals. we'll all see if this is a partisan prosecution or not. straightforward, perfectly good. let's let the system figure this out. there are no more of those in here, rick every single one of them is about george soros radical backed socialist vendetta driven alvin bragg. >> this is -- the entire construct you see over and over again in the treats and other republicans you do get all the tropes let's be blunt about what it

says the evil jewish mastermind is controlling the evil black prosecutor and they're only doing it because one is jewish and one is black that's what's the republicans are code wording here and not very subtly. i think it speaks poorly -- it's hard to imagine it could be much worse but it's donald trump involved they have resorted instantaneously to two of the most grotesque and racial ethnic slurs in the book. >> cynthia oxny, there are concerns, when vaughn was talking about them, every new york police officer has been asked to report in the morning we don't have some sense whether donald trump is going to be able to muster people the way he did on january 6th he maga rally indicates that sort of authority and power is waning we don't have news of mass protests or things like that but what we did see after the mar-a-lago search and other

times is that individuals take some of what donald trump says to heart all you have to do is the hard work of putting a target on someone, don't actually have to do anything else >> that's exactly what scares me and that's why i wish at some point we have charges for the threats, and i'm afraid. i'm afraid for alvin bragg i'm afraid for the individual prosecutors. i'm afraid for the grand jurors, because what we found is people tend to be outed and threatened. i'm afraid for them. i'm afraid for the judge, and at some point there are going to be jurors in this case. in one of the cases coming up we're starting to have anonymous juries who have anything to do with donald trump because everybody's afraid of what's going to happen. and the reason for that is people live in this bubble and they forget that what's happened here in our country is that donald trump escaped any accountability for years and you can have whatever

criticism you want about the stormy daniels case, and i've had no short nl, but the truth of the matter is it's the beginning about cheating in the election, it's part of the umbrella of cheating in the election, zelenskyy cheating to win an election, corrupting the justice department to take care of his friends, january 6th pressuring pence it's all part of that. and he's gotten away with it, and the way he's gotten away with it is by bullying people and by getting other people to do his bidding, and that is what is scary is he'll continue to bully until some kind of lone actor goes after these other innocent people who are just trying to uphold the rule of law. i think it's a very scary time for our country. at the same time, if we don't do it, if we don't hold them accountable, we're just flushing our democracy down the toilet. >> let's talk about that for a second, rick there are people who are sad, you know, who don't like donald trump but think he should be held to account or sad it's come

to this. there's no question our polarized society gets more polarized for things like this for somebody like you and people who join your organization, a part of the lincoln project who like to see the reviable of a republican party or conservative party one day in this country that actually participates in the plateical process what does success look like? >> success looks like this donald trump has to lose this election not just by a little but by a lot we have to repudiate the behavior defined the maga cult bhch you have to repudiate the idea that a potential candidate for president like ron desantis would come out and essentially say i will protect donald trump if people come to florida. this is not a situation any longer you can pretend there's a normer part of the party except maybe a handful of people like liz cheney or adam kinzinger or david jolly who aren't in congress anymore and going to be consistent about condemning the behavior and the transgressions

that go on here, and to say at the very base of what by want is a candidate and leader in the party is someone who has the basic respect for the laws of the united states of america, and donald trump has proven over and over again he's leading a movement that doesn't resemble a political party but more if you want to get down to the third world analogies, he's leading a republican party much more resembles that of an afghan warlord than that of an american president. >> vaughn, i want you to stick around i want to say thanks to cynthia oxny we'll have more on the indictment of donald trump after a quick break. before using the dexcom g7, i was really frustrated. all of that finger pricking and my a1c was still stuck. my diabetes was out of control. (female announcer) dexcom g7 sends your glucose numbers to your phone or dexcom receiver without painful finger sticks. the arrow shows the direction your glucose is heading--

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an attorney for donald trump tells nbc news that the former president is expected to be arraigned on tuesday after his historic indictment in connection to a hush money payment made to adult film star stormy daniels according to two officials familiar with the matter reports the tentative plan is to appear before a judge after 2:15 p.m. eastern time on tuesday afternoon. the exact charge or charges remain unknown because the indictments are typically filed under seal, and the specific charges have not yet been made public with more on this historic development i'm joined by msnbc's gary grumbach.

and of course a lot of this right now is not theoretical and political. it's logistics you are near where the president is and there's going to be a lot more logistics involved in him getting from florida to lower manhattan to surrender himself than pretty much than with any other potential indictee >> yeah, for more than two weeks now security officials have been meeting with the nypd down here in florida to the secret service, the joint terrorism task force have been meeting and figuring how to do this safely because the secret service has a duty to protect the former president. and that is exactly what they plan to do it's going to be a very straight forward process here fly to new york and by motorcade or chopper get from the airport in new york to downtown manhattan, lower manhattan for the arraignment in the courthouse if you've seen around the courthouse, if you've been down there, there are already block

aids up, there are already fences up. down here in mar-a-lago in west palm beach we're not see that just yet, but we are seeing a number of dozens of protesters and supporters of president trump that are going to be there lining the streets as he heads to the airport >> by the way, even at the courthouse in manhattan because it's a secret service protectee a couple of things are going to be different secret service are going to be with him the whole time, but they've got to sweep the place, sweep the roofs. if you're in manhattan on tuesday when this is happening you'll notice disruptions. >> yeah, there's going to be serious shutdowns in that area just as you would see with any head of state or dignitary heading into the area you're going to see streets shutdown, them walking the form fr president probable into a garage of some sort so as not to be seen by cameras. because the secret service has a priority to protect that man regardless of what they think of him. >> gary, thanks for joining us

vaughn, earlier tonight on fox there was a conversation that tucker carlson had, and what's notable about the conversation is something he says at the end that's a little bit hard to catch, but i want you to listen to it with me and talk about it on the other side. >> my greatest fear is that too many americans, too many republicans are asleep-in the light and don't understand what's going on, and if tay don't wake up and don't know what time it is, we will find ourselves on that path to one state party, one party state in authoritarian government >> he says at the end tucker carlson says probably not the best time to give up your ar-15 and i think most people know that that seems to be outside the realm of the indictment of the

former president >> after i was talking with a gentleman about 20 minutes later he comes up to me and goes you seem like a nice fellah but he goes -- but in the case of a civil war you would be the first to go meaning corporate media. that is when you look at somebody like that who truly believes me to be a good person but i needed to find the light and i was the part of the problem of america today th and that is where the divide is. their leader donald trump last year suggested determination of the suspension of the u.s. constitution to boot joe biden from office and to have a new election because he made the case he was the rightful heir. >> when he did that it was very much like the post he put up, he then takes the post down arguing with the suspension of

the constitution he says i didn't really mean it that way he's learned if you plant seeds, they're pretty good. >> and just this weekend he says he does not condone violence >> to me, but he said people are upset. last year we're talking right now about the retribution tool let's remind everybody last year was a revenge tour the revenge tour i traveled around the country for with him seeking revenge of liz cheney, adam kinzinger, tom rice who was a south carolina congressman, he effectively ridded all the house members, republican house members that voted to impeach him following the insurrection except for two of the members. he was successful in those republican primaries for all those general election losses he was successful >> i also want some context about what he said about retribution from you, because

you attend these things. you're there in real life when it happens, but listen to what everybody else heard >> in 2016 i declared i am your voice, and now i say to you again tonight i am your warrior, i am your justice, and i took a lot of heat for this one and i only mean it in the proper way for those who have been wronged and betrayed of which there are many people who have been wronged and betray, i am your retribution >> for those who are are wronged and betrayed i am your retribution. if you don't feel you're part of this group that's wronged and betrayed you don't know what he's talking about but you go there and you know what the wronged asked betrayed seems like >> there are folks frustrated with aspects of their life there are legitimate

conservative policies folks could have a debate about. somebody more conservative in the old traditional sense then jeff flake here. but what you're talking about is somebody who was in the white house who is writing reimbursement checks to michael cohen for the stormy daniels arrangement here, and somehow he's been able to effectively in a major share of the american electorate's mind, able to separate the facts and the realities and the evidence and separate that into a political retribution. they're not coming after me, they're coming after me because i am the one thing -- >> the retribution came after the idea he was going to be indict >> and if i may about six years after he made the case to the american electorate that i alone can fix it, and then after not everything was fixed you have another and this time around it is i am your retribution i don't know where this is heading here, of course, but at

the same time there's an american electorate, a great share of it that is following donald trump to wherever the end of this is >> but because you're out there, you and i sometimes meet together where we're out in the field, but you're out there all the time, and you're talkative to folks who feel this, who feel the retribution may be necessary. is there -- where does this go where does this indictment of donald trump go in terms of their support for donald trump will any of them sit there and say maybe the guy committed crimes, or are they going to say -- >> two fold. we saw the general elections in arizona, pennsylvania. the general election folks rejected it. qanon is not some far, far just fringe of a few people here. when you talk to folks they may not realize they're qanon believers but they believe elements of it they believe there is a child sex trafficking ring right, they believe their

children are being targeted in schools today, right, this idea their gender identity is trying to be manipulated. right. these are all extensions of the qanon philosophy here. and when donald trump goes up there and say says they are coming after you, they're coming after your kids, they are in your schools, they're in your courts, they're in your justice system here, this has penetrated all elements of the american government down to our local schools here and that is where -- and trump says i am your retribution it is about more than the district attorney's case it is about the i78 pact, because if they can come get him then guess what, you and your local family are next. >> all the tweets and press releases they've put out, most don't talk about retribution they don't cross that line but a lot of them use witch hunt a lot of them talk about people will pay a number of them talk about

george soros they talk about alvin bragg as a radical socialist left-wing whatever so they're -- people are inching closer republicans who don't want to cross donald trump for their own political fortunes are inching closer to that language. but they're all getting closer >> they're getting closer, and in the case of ron desantis -- >> you can't take it, i won't extradite -- >> won't extradite him that is the man who when he ran for governor in 2018 a major one of his campaign videos was him reading a donald trump book to his baby, right? he was lifted up and donald trump is not wrong, ron desantis has donald trump a lot to thank for his political rise here, and the last thing you can do now is bail on him. and as donald trump allies tell me, they say just for your own political purposes now you want to bail on donald trump, well,

you can't do it now, you need him. >> this is amazing vaughn hilliard who's been on this story for us and understands every aspect of it more breaking news coverage of former president trump's indictment coming up

if you have been with us through this historic night or you're just waking up and joining us this morning former president donald trump has been

indicted by a manhattan grand jury joining me now is the former congressman elizabeth holtman. she was a member of the house judiciary committee that voted on impeaching richard nixon. she was the first woman district attorney in the state of new york and authored several books including "the case for impeaching trump." liz, you and i had the opportunity to talk on the weekend about this you felt it was sort of a necessary process to -- to get donald trump to start facing accountability your thoughts this morning >> well, of course no one likes to see a former president indicted, but it's also a moment we can reflect on the fact what's involved is simply the rule of law. that everyone is held accountable no matter how high his or her station is or how low. and we have a former president, he's not exempt from accountability because of his status and this procedure will go forward. if there are issues with the due

process, the courts in new york state will review them, and ultimately the supreme court has the authority to review the proceedings here so donald trump's rights are protected, as they should be every defendant's right is protected. >> he remains innocent unless proven guilty by a jury. he has opportunities to go through that we've been expressing all night he's put out statements and his supporters have put out statements including members of congress as you were one of. very few people are talking about the fact that he's charged -- he's innocent until proven guilty and he should be happy to have his day in court it's all about witch hunts and politicization and alvin bragg and george soros i think it's very trouble because what's happening is his statements from the speaker of the house, we're going to hold alvin bragg accountable, this is persecution, an effort to harass

and interfere with the process again, the vice president -- the former vice president of the united states michael pence saying, oh, well, it's just really a campaign finance issue so it's outrageous wait a minute, in watergate people wept to prison for campaign finance violations, and we don't even know what the charges are going to be, so how can he dismiss this as trivial and then you have mr. desantis saying even though the constitution mandates a governor of the state that a fugitive is in who's wanted in another state and mandate that governor to turn the fugitive over, desantis is not going to even obey the constitution so why is everyone who's defending trump want to become a lawbreaker here or dismiss the seriousness of the process >> there's also an undermining of it. there's been an undermining of alvin bragg. there have been becomments donald trump himself have made

some people have interpreted it as racist calling alvin bragg an animal amongst other things. there's also this george soros line that keeps coming up, which is code. when someone talks about george soros backed, the implication is jews controlling stuff >> correct you go back to -- well, i would say an obvious code of anti-semitism. why do we have to bring that in here jews don't control the media, and they don't control the criminal process in new york state or in america. and so to-do that is to somehow degrade the -- to use soros' name is an effort to degrade the process and to bring up terrible associations we have too much hatred and bigotry in this country. we need to have a process that's fair and honest and that's what's going to happen in new york state, and donald trump will be given his rights

his defendants have free speech rights, too, so they can say what they want, but they can't try to obstruct the process. they can't interfere with the process. the process will go forward, and donald trump's appointees on the u.s. supreme court will have a chance to review this as well as others you will have a fair process here, but it won't be fair if people try to bring bigotry as they are bigotry, stupidity and arrogance about the rule of law. nobody is above the law, not republicans and not democrats, not donald trump, not anybody. >> i've known you for a long time we've had a lot of conversations, but i saw a flash of anger in your eyes this weekend when you saw the imagery of donald trump with a baseball bat in a split screen. it was a post he reposted but took down probably because his lawyer told him to cynthia oxny she said, look, alvin bragg is probably not going to bring a charge related to that, but a judge will monitor what donald trump does

and says if he's threatening alvin bragg or the district attorney or other witnesses. >> of course the judge will control the process. the judge will control the dignity and the fairness of the courtroom, and no judge should permit any defend want to become threatening, to demean the process, to demean the court, to demean the prosecutor. not going to happen and i understand this judge is not going to let it happen no one should be allowed to threaten the prosecutor and to threaten violence. he's threatened death and destruction. >> do you have some sense that some form of accountability will finally meet up with donald trump, because he has managed

certainly from a criminal perspective there's been no accountability that he has faced until this point >> right, he hasn't and he needs to and this is the beginning of that process and donald trump is once he's arraigned he can bring a motion to dismiss the indictment. he can say it's persecution, it's nonsense, it's against the law, it's not constitutional, whatever arguments he wants to make, but he has to make them in court and they have to be based on something so all this rhetoric is just rhetoric but it's destructive of our system and disrespectful of our system we do not have -- we can't survive in a democracy if we have a system that's based on violence, on power, on the status of a person everyone has to be accountable under the law and they have to be treated fairly. donald trump will be treated fairly, but he can't put himself

above the system and if he does, he's going to face trouble more trouble >> thank you, by the way, i don't know whether it's staying up late or waking up early, but we always appreciate it. former judiciary committee member who voted to impeach richard nixon. that does it for me. stay with msnbc for more of our breaking news coverage of the indictment of former president donald trump jonathan lemire picks up with "way too early" after a quick break. mmm, popcorn. (alternate voice) denture disaster, darling! we need poligrip before crispy popcorn. (regular voice) let's fix this. (alternate voice) poligrip power hold + seal gives our strongest hold and 5x food seal. if your mouth could talk, it would ask for... poligrip. there is a better way to manage diabetes. the dexcom g7 continuous glucose monitoring system and 5x food seal. eliminates painful finger sticks, helps lower a1c, and it's covered by medicare. before using the dexcom g7,

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