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history because, on that day at 7:11 pm manhattan distric attorney alvin bragg release this statement this evening, we contacted mr. trump's attorney did coordinat is surrender to the manhatta da's office for arraignment on a supreme court indictment which remains under seal and with, that manhattan district attorney alvin brag stepped into the spotlight o history as the first prosecuto to ever bring criminal charges against a former president o the united states. today the manhattan grand jury voted to indict trump after an investigation into his role in the hundred 30,000 dollar hush money payoff to actres stephanie clifford, also known as stormy daniels. in the final weeks of the 2016 election in a payoff tha

prosecutor said affected the outcome of the presidentia election the new york times reports the felony indictment filed unde seal by the manhattan district attorney's office will likel be announced in the coming day by prosecutors working for the district attorney, will have asked mr. trump to surrender and face arraignment in charge that remain unknown for now. nbc news is now reporting that trump's arraignment will b presided over by trump - next tuesday sometime on or after 2:15 pm judge -- previously presided over the trump corporation trial, i which the company was foun guilty leading off our discussion tonight is glenn christmas former federal prosecutor. he's a host of the justice matters podcast. barbara mcquade, a former u.s. attorney and a law professor a the university of michigan law school paul butler, a professor of la

at georgetown university, and former federal prosecutor. they're all msnbc lega analysts and also his terry -- a former u.s. attorney and former deputy assistan general. he is the senior legal affairs columnist for the los angele times. glen gardner, we begin wit you. we have heard attorney general merrick garland saying repeatedly that no one is abov the law. we have heard prosecutors sa that in many jurisdictions ove the course of our lives, man times. tonight, in manhattan, the manhattan district attorney is making the statement that no one is above the law in the most emphatic possibl way available to him on th delivery of this indictment of the former president of th united states. >> lawrence, isn't it nice t have a concrete example of tha saying because frankly it was a sayin that seems to have lost it force overtime but i think new life has bee

breathed into that saying, n person is above the law in america. what is so important is th deterrent value of formerl tried to hold a former president accountable for hi crimes never again will a president o former president and be able t rest easy knowing that he, o maybe some day she, can commit crimes with complete impunit and never be held accountable. things in a very real sens have changed today on the fron of holding high government officials accountable for thei crimes, and it feels like it's a good step forward for ou republic >> barbara mcquade, this is no new york law that don't trump' finding himself ensnared in. this is a law that he grew u in, in queens, and then when h

moved to manhattan he has been subjected to tha law almost his entire life before he left the state for florida. sometimes new jersey and this is as a kind of a thing that, when you look at the arc of his life, has now a inevitable feel to it as you look back on that park >> i suppose it does, lawrence it seems that donald trump has for almost his entire and ol lifetime, managed to evade the law and to skate close to th line and sometime not be hel accountable for it so people should not b prosecuted because they must have done something bad in their lives, it is based on particular crime where there i probable cause to believe that a crime has been committed b this person. but there has to be some feeling of justice, that finally donald trump is goin to face accountability he certainly has the presumption of innocence, he will be afforded all due

process. but there has to be somethin humbling about somebody like donald trump who was, someon who like to portray himself as a rags to riches story, to now see himself humbled in this way, being brought into court as defendant where he will be fingerprinted and mugshot it >> paul butler, we are seein three different jurisdiction that have a total of fou criminal investigations of don't trump. manhattan, which is now gone first, it landa, distric attorney in fulton county has grand jury that has alread investigated to the crimes, th possible grounds of -- will be hearing the results of that in the next few weeks jack smith, the federa prosecutor, special prosecutor has two different grand juries investigating january 6th an investigating donald trump's possession of government documents. it seems that, of all of those manhattan is the singl strongest place to begin thi

kind of process with donal trump. with new york city's 35,00 police officers, with th imposing court campus of fully square in lower manhattan, which is a very easily protected area for law enforcement officials. they know how to secure it and the fact that don't trump, summoned 74 million of his voters to come into manhatta last week to protest any possible charges against him when jordan klepper of the daily show took his camera down, there he was able to fin exactly one. so i think we have a prett solid proof of that manhatta has pretty much nothing to worry about on tuesday >> that is correct lawrence. so today is the beginning of accountability in criminal court for donald trump i do not think that this is th only courtroom where trump wil

face accountability, and i certainly is correct that ne york is set up in terms of security to provide a fair and save trial i think that da brags concer now is making sure that he get that conviction. remember, paying hush money is not a crime in new york, it is a crime to file business records there and it's not a brag who decided that should b a crime, but the people of new york did of course, to make that felony, prosecutors have t prove that - to conceal another crime tha other crime could be a violation of election law, lik and legal campaign contribution lawrence, that is an unteste legal theory for that crime an it does create some risk throughout the race -- a jury might think it is too complicated the. reality is that alvin bragg is charged 120 people with filing false business records to cove

up other crimes. >> harry lippman, this looks like a case where it is very hard to see the route to a not guilty without the defendant taking the witness stand because within the chronolog of this, i'm just going to read a coupl of items in it let's just look at october 28th, 2016 election day coming up o november 8th, they have to get the payoff to stormy daniels before election day. they are rushing that payoff they are trying to get there a fast as they possibly can. october 28th, 2016 cohen reportedly called trum and updated him on the situation. the same day, cohn reportedl signed a contract that effectively promised mis clifford money for not talking about the alleged affair wit mr. trump and so on. there is an earlier phone call where michael cohen is on th

phone with hope hicks an donald trump gets on the phone in that -- so there are two witnesses t donald trump being on the phon in that phone call, when i begins as hope hicks michael cohen, that it becomes whole picks, michael cohen, and on trump. the only way, it seems to me for trump to counter what we'v pretty much no will beat michael cohen's testimony abou michael cohen's communicatio with donald trump, is fo donald trump to take the witness stand, which is of course the biggest possibl challenge you could ever present to donald trump, to pu him under holes and hope tha she could possibly get off the witness stand without bein charged with perjury >> and bring him to heal the way a good cross examiner ca do and force him to answer he has to testify, but h cannot testify like so much else, this is all bound up now in the politics and he would be trul humiliated having into follow

closely that the prosecuto would hold him under the alternative -- first of all, your hundred percent right, and there are people already in the da's office preparing a binder like this and relishing the prospec of him taking the stand. but probably, and they may pretend, that if it goes t trial that he will testify my best guess is that they wil roll the dice in trying to jus totally kill cohen o cross-examination and use that to create reasonable doubt but it is a great illustration of how the stakes here g beyond the actual trial. because it is all kind o layered in, the politica election itself. he has got to, but he cannot at the end of the day, he will not. >> that's exactly, it he i going to have to testify to ge a not guilty, but he canno testify so that is going to be the strategic question of th

year how do you handle the question of donald trump's testimony. this is good start harry lippman, paul butler garber mcquade, glenn kirschner, thank you very much fo starting our discussion in thi round. coming up, our next gues charles -- wrote a column wrote in column called donald trump must b prosecuted and of course donal trump attacked charles blow in trump's most violent racis language charles we join us next. ure a whole new way of manufacturing. you could disrupt buying habits before they disrupt your business. you could fire up a new generation of start-ups. and fuel the search for what comes next. so...what are you waiting for? go. baker tilly.

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level up your speed. mario! yea! [ screaming ] introducing the xfinity 10g network. super fast internet today. with even faster speeds tomorrow. woo-hoo! to rehabilitate american justice, trump must be prosecuted those are the words of our nex guest, new york times columnis charles blow in a column title shot donald trump must b prosecuted charles blow wrote, prosecutin trump would not break of the country. on the contrary, it would be a step towards amending it, step towards undergirding th flimsy promise of equal justic under law. another column about

prosecuting trump, charles brody wrote relative to accuse prosecutors of partisanship an overreach. let them trouble screaming like a baby. let him. trump screamed like a baby a charles blow, a racist baby. yesterday trumpeted a social media post calling charles blo a, which is what trump doe with every black person is not agree with donald. i cannot redo all of what don' trump said about charles blo because the language is just too vile among other things trump tol the lie that charles blo thinks that donald trump shoul be prosecuted, quote, because am white and quote. needless to say, charles blo had never said anybody shoul ever be prosecuted for anythin because they are white charles blow would never say such a thing joining us now is charles blow

an opinion writer for the ne york times and an msnb political analyst. charles, you have written th column saying that trump mus be prosecuted. how are you feeling at thi hour tonight >> it feels like the prosecutors are moving in th direction aligns with the fact as we know them. we do not know what is in th indictment, but just on th face of what we knew it looked like trump had violated th law. it looks like in the grand jury, the prosecutor are coming to the same decision, conclusion, and that of the prosecutor - because they are going to brin the indictment in an indictmen trump has evidence that they believe, undergirds that and that is important for them t do it is important not only for them it is important for the country to do. donald trump said that i thought that he should b prosecuted because he is quite no, i think he should be

prosecuted is if he is wrong i believe that he is wrong not only in this case, but i several other cases that are now under investigation. >> charles, when trump first started attacking th underwriter, i think i was probably the first person in the news media attacked becaus i called him a liar the moment that he mentioned barack obama's for three to forget, the first time in 2011 and i'v been calling him a liar ever since. i used to read his tweets on the show, i used to respond to them they were good for my ratings. they were helpful to me. he called me stupid, ugly, all of these things. the stupidest man on tv. but there is no racism it was all stuff that i coul easily just laugh off. what he said about you is so ugly and so vile that i will not a upon this audience what's it like to get hit that

way by the guy because that is nothing like the goofy stuff that he said about me >> unlike donald trump, i am a adult, and i am a big boy. none of that bothers me in tha way. i will say this. i only ever met trump one-time at a cocktail party. it was around the time that he first began, as you described, calling for barack obama t produce his birth certificate. i turned, behind me to say - he shook my hand, then h launched into this thing about the blacks really love me or something to that effect he started to go down a list o black celebrities who he sai were encouraging him to run fo president. i am stunned by this, and write about it immediately i my next column because he ha made a calculation, which

think is his modus operandi, which is that he makes a racia calculation on the spot. i don't know if he knew who was, or if you remember th exchange, but the first thin that he wanted to say to the black person that he had jus met was how much he was love by black people, and the calculation was that he wanted to furman self in front of me. i think that he makes racial calculations all the time. he has no concept whatsoever about whether or not he really believes that kelvin brag, letitia james, charles blow, o fani ear in georgia is actuall racist he just says they are differen than him, they are black people, and they are writing or saying or doing things that are opposed to him, and so h

strikes out the only way he can, which is to label them in project of kind of way the very thing that i believ that he is guilty, of which is racism >> charles blow, author of the column terrell - donald trump must be prosecuted thank you for joining us o this historic night, w appreciate it. coming up, nbc news chie justice contributor jonathan - is reporting that there is a tentative plan for trump t appear before a manhattan judg at 2:15 pm on tuesday. more on that next. ucing sugar in your family's diet, the more choices, the better. that's why america's beverage companies are working together to deliver more great tasting options with less sugar or no sugar at all. in fact, today, nearly 60% of beverages sold contain zero sugar. different sizes? check. clear calorie labels? just check. with so many options, it's easier than ever to find the balance that's right for you. more choices. less sugar.

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goldman who represents the district of lower manhatta where donald trump is now criminal defendant congressman joined us in the earlier edition of thi program. >> i've been in touch with law enforcement, they are prepared for this and are ready t ensure that all new yorkers an everyone around that area will be kept a safe >> we also have to be very careful about making sure that we debunked propaganda and misinformation about this case no one has seen the indictment no one has seen the evidence let's wait until they see that but we know that any allegations of partisanship ar bunk because no one knows what he is charged with and so we really really need t make sure that we let this

process play out in a court of law, not in the halls of congress or in the political sphere >> earlier this evening on indictment night, i aske kathryn christian a former manhattan district attorney if she thinks that alvin brag will have a press conference after a manhattan grand jury voted to indict donald trump >> he can announce the indictment, but he cannot make any comments that would in anyway prejudice mr. trump because he is entitled to fair trial and you not want to say anything that will impai his ability to have a fair trial. so he will follow the rules of professional responsibility an say only one he is ethically allowed to do, and i think h will speak to the press in addition to a press release. >> we are back with our pane of legal experts glenn kirschner, the point she was making was that he probabl

will not have anything to sa until the arraignment and then possibly right after the arraignment there might be a press statement maybe no questions, but some sort o press explanation. >> yeah, there might be a brie statement made by the district attorney or a spokesperson for the district attorney's office but it will stick to the publi record and that will reall involve only the indictmen once it is unsealed. donald trump on the other hand is likely to say all manner of things, we have already seen some reckless posts about ho people should protest, protest protest. take our nation back i predicted all along that whe he was ultimately indicted, hi poll just may look like come t manhattan for my arraignment it will be wild. i think that will bring us t the question of whether th prosecutors at the time that h

is arraigned on the charge request some sort of a modes or narrow gag order or restriction on his speech or his post because we know he is want to post reckless things that are inflammatory that frankly are designed, in m estimation, to incite imminent lawless action judges are loathed to engage i prior restraint on speech. we do not often see gag orders deployed in criminal cases but if ever there was candidate or at least a robust discussion of the propriety of a gag order, i think it is donald trump >> barbara mcquade, this i where you bump into the donald trump political candidac because somebody who is puttin out tweets with a baseball bat that he is swinging at the hea of the prosecutor would be obviously immediately put unde some kind of gag order by judge in a situation like that

but this is a presidential candidate. how is that going to interac with the judges decision >> i think it is a reall interesting point, lawrence. it reminds me a bit of whe roger stone was on trial you may recall that picture of the judge residing on this cas with rifle crosshairs over her face she had a gag order prohibitin posting him -- him posting things online. there could be a narrow type o the gag order, he's gonna sa that i'm on the campaign trail and i have to be able to defen myself publicly with my voters but what is going on i do not know -- but i think a judge could -- it could have some teeth because a failure to follo such border would be contemp of court and would be punished with jailing to make him knock it off >> that is the magic word,

jailing. i've said over the last year o so, slipped it in here or there, without anyone really noticing that i believe there are n circumstances under whic donald trump or any former president will be in any kin of custody like jail or prison even after conviction becaus of the large secret servic detail that is assigned into the former president for life. so if you are trying t sentence a former president to confinement, you are sentencin about 24 secrets air service agents a day, and there is n prison facility that is capabl of handling that so my theory of the whol imprisonment possibility i that the secret service simply in effect, become the home confinement jailing detail you do not need an ankle bracelet, he sentenced him t three years or whatever it i of home confinement and th secret service will make sur that he stays home but, which is just to sa

whether that is right or wrong what it does point up is tha on normal circumstance, jail would be an option for a defendant who is somehow not i compliance with some kind of gag order. but that is not a practica option here. >> one reason that it is not his thanks to a progressiv prosecutor like alvin bragg wh emphasizing equal justice unde the law and fairness to people who are accused of crime so under new york reform law nobody goes to jail for a lo level fell only like this whil they are awaiting trial unless there is a flight risk even if he is convicted, again in new york people typically d not get incarcerated for

low-level felonies if it is first offense. now in georgia and in th federal court system, he i looking at much more time. if it da willis charges hi with racketeering he could get up to 20 years in prison lawrence, they would have to find a way to incarcerate hi if a judge decides that that i the appropriate sentence >> that is another point tha comes to a judge, the judge is going to hear in the sentencin a unique pleading that no judg has ever heard before, which i here is the secret service delegation, here is the detail and this is how many peopl work on that detail and this i how we would have to chang them i don't know what basis, the secret service agents woul have to go to prison for a wee at the time? with that be their duty? how would you pay them for that? there is a tremendous produc

cool, giant hurdle and the notion of putting a former american president behind bars as long as they have the secre service detail if you can get congress to vot to take that white, which this republican congress in the house is not going to do, that maybe you could talk about confinement? >> it is one of 50 suc imponderable problems that are now going to ensue now that we are actually going int proceedings. but surely, it will look different. we celebrate in a sense today, although it is also a solemn day, a mixed feelings day wher the rule of law is triumphan and trump is treated like an other person but i have to agree, with yo if and when it comes time to actually be putting him in pinstripes and closing the doo behind him, even though so man people relish the prospect there is going to be broader considerations played. but as paul says, for talkin

about the kind of crimes tha he would face for either of th two charges, or georgia, the - they would normally get te years and he gets nothing, i will be just one more exampl of what does equal treatment mean in this context i just want to say that it is very long way away we've got a year or more of al kinds of twists endurance, eac one of which will be put int the political system as well a the legal system crazy times. >> we could have a race, starting possibly with fulto county, inside the first wee of may indictments coming up there. you could have prosecutors basically in a race with eac other about to get stone trumped trial first. then you could have and imagin some pretrial motions that would do or in manhattan tha would be different from th pretrial motions that woul occur in fulton county, georgi

if, there is a prosecution there. different from the pretria motions that will occur in any of jack smith's possible prosecutions of donald trump so, it is not clear, we know which one is going first i terms of indictment. going first in terms o indictment, does not mean that you will be the first trial. >> it does not, and when you have a defendant who has committed crimes and multipl jurisdictions, such that you have multiple law enforcemen agencies and prosecutors district attorneys, states attorneys, commonwealt attorneys, federal prosecutors involve, you know prosecutor are at their best when they se their egos aside and the coordinate and they cooperate and they take an overarching view of what is the best thing for the victims, for the people, for the community, in holdin this person accountable. and sometimes, a jurisdictio that might get out of the gate first might then take

backseat to a prosecution that has a more significant interes because the crimes are mor serious. i hope that fani willis an alvin bragg and jack smith and others in the department o justice, are engaged in just that kind of coordination. but i will say, sometimes we have big egos and we get territorial, and he committe crimes in our jurisdiction and we won't take care of them - you know what, this is too important and hopefully this i the kind of circumstance where they are all going to be cooperating and coordinating >> glen gardner, barbara mcquade, paul butler, harr lippman, thank you all for joining us on this important and historic night thank you. coming up, donald trump's niece, mary trump, is next. ahhhh... with flonase, allergies don't have to be scary spraying flonase daily gives you long-lasting, non-drowsy relief. (psst psst) flonase. all good.

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reporting that donald trump is still absorbing the news of hi indictments. the new york times reports tha mr. trump and his aides were caught off guard by the timing believing that any action by the grand jury was still weeks away and might not occur a all. at his palm beach estate i recent weeks, mr. trump's mood has ranged from optimism and bravado to anxiety about his future he has been keeping relatively normal schedule a mar-a-lago dining with guest at the club, playing golf, and telling nearly anyone he spoke to what a good mood he was i and how he believed that the case was against him by alvi

bragg, the manhattan distric attorney, had fallen apart at times mr. trump has appeare significantly disconnected fro the severity of his potentia legal woes, according to peopl who have spent time with him i recent days. joining us now is someone wh has spent what time with him i not-so-recent days, mary trump a clinical psychologist an niece of donald trump. she is the host of the podcast the mary trump show and author of the reckoning, our nation's trauma and finding a way t heal mary trump, thank you very muc for joining us in our last segment we had two members of congress, and so we heard the high minded preach meant that we should get fro members of congress saying and that there is nothing to celebrate tonight. i have a feeling that there ar millions of people watchin this right now in a celebrator mood >> and, lawrence, that is fair

i absolutely think it is fai because we can feel both thing at the same time it is a dark day, this i historic, nothing like this as ever happened before althoug there are plenty of argument that would say that this shoul have happened a long time ag with other people in donald' position but it is not good for the country to have somebody at hi level of power continuing to get away with things, with suc impunity on the other, hand because h has gotten away with so much for so long, and so many of hi victims will never see their day in court, i think it is of sully understandable that some people would be feelin vindicated and, quite honestly celebratory. >> i'd be the one old enough t have to tell the audience that there was an awful lot o celebrating when richard nixon was forced to resign the

presidency and celebrate was the word for it. there was absolutely nothing wrong with it. but let me get what you thin your uncle's feelings tonight. >> i have to be honest, this i real for me. it is not that i was convinced that he would be indicted, but i absolutely believed that based on what we know, h certainly should be. not just in new york, but at least in new york. so i am having a difficult tim processing this. donald on the other hand probably never believed in his wildest nightmares that such a day would come why should he have this is somebody who has gotte away with pretty muc everything for decades now, an he has never faced rea accountability for any of it

for much more serious crimes from his racist rental practices back in the 70s an 80s, to all sorts of shenanigans in atlantic city to of course the big lie, th insurrection of january 6th, and on and on. so i have no doubt in my min that those quotes are accurate that he is having a very tough time grappling with any of this he may not actually believe it unless and until he is getting his mugshot and hi fingerprints taken >> did his father never teac him that there were lega tripwire's all around th trumps in the real estat business, that they had to b careful of more legal tripwire is than th average person have in their lives, not in the real estat business in new york no because, in addition to having more legal tripwire, as they also had more access to power, and more access t

people with power who are well connected that could make sure that they never suffered any legal consequences, starting with roy - and now we are seeing that after having been convinced by his own father that he shoul never take responsibility fo anything, he is never to blame for anything, donald it's in a position where he knows th difference between right and wrong he just never in 1 million years thought it would apply to him >> you know, mary, the reasons why i was absolutely certain that your own goal would never run for president and i wa right in the first couple of times that i said it, and then one time i was wrong and he ra in 2015. but the reason that i wa convinced he would not run for president is that he had t have, i believed either enough brains of his own as a wise gu growing up in queens, pickin up a certain amount of stree

smarts with that, or he had it least one have smart lawye type around him or more in his business who could say to him, donald, you have enough laws around your life right now if you go into politics, you invite a whole other set o laws that are way more complicated than the laws that you are living in now, lik campaign finance laws, which i what he is apparently going to be accused of violating. he could have paid off storm daniels and every porn sta that he ever met for the res of his life legally if he just did not get into politics. i knew that he led a life like that, and so that is why i thought he would not get int politics, because getting into politics would bring him eventually, to a night lik this >> well, he should hav listened to you. trust me, i am sure there ar

people in my family who feel the same way that you do and are probably are not too happy about the way things are unfolding. i do not think that donald intended seriously to run in just the first couple of times that he did, it was a marketin ploy but then he started gainin traction, and it is not simply laying that deal is leading in the polls, he was leaving in the polls not to revelations about his racism and his massage knee, but because of them which just added to his sense of invulnerability so again, when you are told fo your entire life that you ca do whatever you want with no consequences and that gets proven to you time and tim again, why would he thin otherwise. let's face it, donald is not the most agile thinker he is a pretty rigid and nothing can challenge that sense of invulnerability except, perhaps, a few indictments

>> here is why i think thi particular case is the perfectly appropriate one to g first, if there has to be first and a sequence o criminal prosecutions of trump without the crimes committed i this case, there would be no trump presidency these were the crimes, according to federal prosecutors in their chargin documents on michael cohen these were the crimes that wer committed in order to defrau voters in effect in the presidential election these were the crimes that wer -- as the prosecutor's, to affect a presidential election. the other crimes that he is in line now to be charged with, we're only commit poll after h run the presidency these were the crimes that allowed him to win the electoral college. i am so glad that you said tha lawrence, because so man

people have been talking about this case as if it's not a big deal, especially as contrasted to the case in fulton county georgia, and jack smith' special counsel case into th january 6th insurrection and the allegedly stolen classifie documents. this is a foundational case. he did not just pay off stormy daniels to keep her quie because it was embarrassing to him personally as you just said, he did thi to sway the results of the election in 2016, the american people did not have all of the information they were entitled to, before deciding for whom they wanted to vote. and that is the crime that has led to so many wars infraction against the american people, against the constitution, an against our democracy. >> the evidence against donald is such that i cannot see ho he can expect to get close to

not guilty in this case, without taking the stand himself to specificall reviewed michael cohen the chronology of this, this i just one day october 28th, 2016, cohe reportedly called trump an updated him on the situation this is the payoff situation with stormy daniels. the same day, cohen an clifford, stephanie clifford reportedly signed a contract that of actively promised miss clifford money in exchange for not talking about the allege affair with donald trump so that is how michael cohen i going to testify he is going to say on octobe 20, eight 2016, a couple o weeks, less than two weeks before the presidentia election, i told donald trum all about exactly where we

were he has previous conversation to that with donald trump. the only person who coul refute michael cohen on, thi on the witness stand is donald trump. and we have all seen that he has no capacity, none, to tell the truth. even under oath. >> and not only that, lawrence you know there is a time whe donald had some self restraint he could get through a deposition basically by saying nothing. i do not remember, i do no recall, what have you. and we have seen in recent depositions he cannot do tha anymore either he is constantly trying to tel his own narrative, he is constantly trying to point out a relevant facts, or doublin down on the things that he i accused of doing so i do not see at all how, if he is in a position to counter michael cohen's evidence o anybody else is that he will b able to do that without furthe incriminating himself. >> that is illegal boxes and

right now, and his lawyers kno that they have an incredible danger in putting him on the stand under oath he would get exposed to perjur charges, and because this case does ultimately come down to donald trump's word agains other individuals in this case if he cannot take the witnes stand, they're just does not seem to be a route to a no guilty without taking th witness stand. >> now, and again, for a crime that has already been proven the person who helped donald commit the crime was already convicted of the crime so that is another factor that donald republican enablers d not seem to be factoring in. plus, of course, there is that need that he seems to have t put himself out there no matte how bad that might be for him. so it is going to be fascinating to see wha happens. i have to be honest, at the en

of the day and i am not lawyer of course but fro everything that we have seen, do not think it matters one wa or the other >> mary trump, thank you ver much for joining us on this very important and histori night. we really appreciate havin your perspective tonight >> thank you lawrence. >> mary trump gets tonig'sht > we'll be right back. you could see nothing here. or here. or you could see, everything that could be. go. baker tilly. my a1c stayed here, it needed to be here. ray's a1c is down with rybelsus®. i'm down with rybelsus®. my a1c is down with rybelsus®. in a clinical study, once-daily rybelsus® significantly lowered a1c better than a leading branded pill.

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word, msnbc live breaking news coverage of the indictment o donald trump continues right now with