all the presidents men went to jail the attorney john mitchell, hr haldeman, john ehrlichman, the list is long but the pardon gerald ford which most historians have sai give accolades to ford, he hea the nation for the memoirs is called th time to heal now i don't know about it. after living through trump may have been a mistake to pardo nixon because it allows people like trump who are bad operators to fill themselves with unwelcome hubris. >> i think the historica consensus on that pardon has really shifted for exactly the reasons that you have noted. douglas brinkley, a grea pleasure to have you here. my friend and colleague john psyche, check her out this weekend. thank you very much. that is all in on this norma thursday night and the rachel maddow show starts right now good evening, rachel >> this is not supposed to b when the rachel maddow show is on >> i know. can i tell you a quick funny thing? you texted back the back and

forth and i misread your tex [laughter] i thought i was gonna have you on the top of the show and the you are you crossed on the top of my show and i was lik sending everyone on a while it was chase. but it's wonderful to see you. no >> or you thought i was gonna be on with you an hour ago, just pop up roundly o your show uninvited? >> no, i was having you on but then i realized afterwards tha i'd screw that up and heads an a bunch of embarrassing emails telling people to stand down having revere the text you sen me so it's wonderful to see you here on this very importan day. >> thank you, chris. hey, and thank you for askin me to be here, i'm here unde weird circumstances. i did my own makeup which is hilarious. so i look like we've all bee talking about nicks nixon an actually here to remind us o the ghost of nixon nixon it's 1960. you >> do everything including your makeup. >> before you go, let me jus ask you, chris, because you've been asking a lot of questions this hour and, i know nobody's been able to ask you thi question yet

can i just get your kind o chris opener in terms of how much you think this changes th country, if at all >> i think it changes th country, and i think there's kind of a no going back in thi to it that i think is correct. i have to say, in this is weird to say, back to you, the monologue you did about that this is happened before, thoug not surfaced specifically th president citing the menende trial, the john edwards trial, has been the north star for me and the thing that i'm kind of holding to, almost aspirationally which is othe countries have done this, we have done it in other contexts and if the law is to mea anything, this is part of what that law means, even if, i people think it's a bad case and they don't have the good then he's acquitted. he gets his rightful due process and all of that is important, and i'm trying no to get out over the outcomes i do think ultimately,

personally, the man is guilt one of the greatest crimes eve committed in this country, attempting to end america' constitutional republic as w know, it and should face legal accountability for that. >> yes, and, should face som accountability for that at som point and we don't know if any of that will ever be full lega accountability because part of that is charging decisions and while he was still president that was one of the things tha constrain the prospect of lega accountability for him then wa this where justice departmen rule that we have about no indicting that one person in the country no matter what the do as long as they have that job. there's all these intricacie around whether or not as legal accountability, including ones charges or bra are brought whether or not you are convicted and what kind of sentences are given. accountability is a broa thing. we are seeing an attempt a legal accountability for him for the first time in his life it's fantastically newsworth because of that but it's not systematically different thing for our country to see a

politician >> the final thing i'll sa here is there's an old check o line of the great russia author and playwright that i you introduce a gun first ac has to go off in the third act in retrospect the lock her u chants feels like the chic convene foreshadowing here the projection of my political enemy must be rendered, is criminal, right, as a sort o projected force, as a sort o narrative, almost faded plac this whole drama was headed, that feels very heavy toda from an historic standpoint. >> yes, and i will say, well i try not to the hole cable news wars and what are people sayin on the right-wing cable channel? i try not to do that when we saw the host over th fox channel say be like he that will lock her up thin that was totally a joke. i can't believe those that you thought it was real. it was very great moment

>> a little light for. that >> thank you, my friend great to see you thank you, chris all right, i am not usuall here on thursday night, but, you know, things happen. deep breath, everybody well tonight's news is not a surprise this is something we've been expected for a long while an have been thinking about for the implications for a ver long while so while this does not come ou of the blue, i do think there' one thing we all need to b preparing for here that we are maybe not prepared for and that is what i think is th very high probability that thi is going to be boring. i'm not sure we're prepared fo that i'm not sure either side ideology ideologically, i don' think the pundit top rousey is prepared i don't think you are prepared because this feel like really big news and reall big news feels like it has a

lot of momentum, but as far as i can tell, this is about legal proceeding starting, and if you look at the kind of legal proceeding this is going to be, i think we need t prepare ourselves for the fact that, a, this may go on for really long time, and it might go on where ths somethin that feels like reading th small print on the back of a lottery ticket or even your ca rental insurance waiver. this might really be boring. and i say that because i d think the overheated expectation for how this forms as a country, something that i almost always born t disappoint but i also say it because, thi isn't something that i unprecedented in the world o criminal law the actual adjudication of cases like this one, as much a

we know about what kind of cas this is, before the indictment unsealed, the actual adjudication of cases like thi is often a very boring thing i will tell you, since thi particular district attorney alvin bragg, has been th district attorney for manhattan, his office has reportedl charged falsification of business record as a felon count 117 times. he has not been da for tha long, but in that time he' indicted on this charge 11 times. and that's what you call trivia, because it's not that important. not one of those cases was interesting enough to make the news on its own terms. and i will say it also in term of previous lega accountability for thi particular former president. it has already happened to a certain degree and it has been there i say, boring. former presidents business call the trump organization, was not that long ago charge

with felony tax evasion. felony tax evasion is a kind o cousin of the charge reportedly considered by the grand jury in their indictment today. it was absolutely fascinatin news when the felony tax evasion charges were announced against donald trump's business. but then, you remember wha happened thereafter? i swear you don't, because i was 16 months, 60 no new months between the announcemen of those charges in the da when they finally started to pick the jury. once they got a jury they had trial and was a long trial i those lots of testimony about, you know, alleged criminal tax fraud. and then there was a verdict and you remember where you wer when the verdict came out? no you don't you probably don't because it wasn't a moment whe the earth moved. maybe it moved for you it didn't move for me. i don't lie about these things i'm too old. there were convictions on al counts on in that case, if you don't remember, and it's oka if you don't remember, because the sum total, real worl

impact of the conviction and all those felony counts agains the trump organization, wa that the trump organizatio ended up paying a fine that wa the corporate equivalent of parking ticket and an executiv not named donald trump was gonna have to go to jail for a few weeks. and gets out on april 19th the successful convicted on al counts prosecution crimina felony prosecution of th presidents business, including the jailing of his cfo, has no been something that has change the political world. it is not changed our sense of ourselves as a constitutiona republic and that is perhaps as it should b because if you're a politician and you commit a crime or grand jury believes based on a preponderance of evidence that you have committed a crime and should face trial for you to face trial for it. that's the way system works. just look at new yor politicians. donald trump is a new york politician that's where he came up. he has since moved to florida.

more on that in a moment as a new york politician somebody came up in the ne york political and busines milieu he knows as well as anyone tha new york politicians i particular get indicted all th time in just the past few years tha in new york alone we've had no one, not to, but three different new york congressman indicted and a lieutenan governor and six state senator including the leader of th senate and at least six stat members, members of the stat assembly before i got bored an stopped counting there's very little practica impact on regular human life o an american politician facin an indictment. especially when the charges ar such that the trial itself i likely to be slightly less interesting than watching pain dry on something where you don't really care if the pai tries. politicians get indicted current officeholders ge indicted former officeholders get indicted former candidates for ic

office get indicted. it's not like we don't hav recent experience of a bol faced name republican candidat running for president whil under criminal indictment. that just happened rick perry did in 2016 he can doctorate his entir republican presidentia campaign while under crimina indictment, which nobody remembers, because honestly th thing it messed up his chances at the white house as when h said whoops and who debate whe he couldn't remember which government agencies he wante to nominate. it wasn't the indictment that meant that made no impact on his political goals indicting politicians, and former politicians and candidates for office, is an american pastime by public corruption prosecutors at state and federal level it's a thing that happens al the time in his country, s much so that it is often borin when it happens. it's a one day story, or a two day story, or a weeklong story and by the time since a verdict, the light comes back around in

the news again and then block. it doesn't break our system. for the members of the political class to faith legal accountability for alleged crimes it is, in fact, a cherishe part of our system that show you our system is working, w shows you that political power does not exclude you from th obligation to comply with th law. in our system, there is on weird quirk. only serving presidents ar immune from federal prosecution, and that's only federa prosecution, and that immunity only last fall that one person still holds that one office. but other than that, weird thing which, is kind of a weir idea, and maybe we'll go awa sunday, other than that tiny little slice of immunity for one person while they hold one job and only while they're i that job, other than that, indicting politicians is totally normal we do it all the time and we can handle it. unless unless a particular politician

seeks to make his indictment a catalyst for his supporters an his party rising up an declaring that the legal syste is now over, that the lega system should not apply to him and therefore it no longer applies at all that would be somethin different. that is not inevitable consequence of a politicia being indicted that is what this former politician and candidate for office is trying to do for the first time that's the hard part that's the part that could break us as a country. the indictment, it's thursday. indictment is not the thin that's going to change our lives. so gonna talk tonight about th practical impact of the news today the new york grandeur is issued an indictment for forme president donald trump his lawyers have confirmed the indictment the da's office has confirmed th indictment and state officially that it is stil under seal there is word from one of trump'

lawyers that president trump i expected to be arraigned, that means he is expected to be that we expect him to turn himself into be booked on thes charges on tuesday next week but who knows? because that gets us to the on actually completely off th rails thing that has happene today, the one break the rules break the system thing that ha happened today since thi indictment was first reporte by the new york times. it relates to the fuzziness of that specific part of the plan the way it logistically work for a person to be indicted on felony charges specifically the question of trump turning himself into fac arraignment. there is one thing that ha happened today, not th indictment itself, the thing that has happened today that does potentially pose a threat to us as a country if somethin that somebody completely outside the story, completel

outside this criminal process, completely outside this news decided to do in response to it and that is something that happened within five minutes o trump's lawyer first putting out the first statement to reporters that trump would tur himself in for arraignment early next week. we got one trump lawyer tellin reporters early next week, trump attorney himself in. within five minutes of tha first statement from trump's lawyer, a republican politicia named ron desantis, governor o florida, made the statemen online, saying, florida will not persist in an extraditio request given in the questionable circumstances tha issue with this soros back t manhattan prosecutor and his political agenda that some of the virgin jim th statement from ron desanti that echoes word for word what dawn along trump said in response to his own indictment he's echoing trump's languag exactly, which is fine

criticizing the legal process, criticizing the indictment, th perceived positive goal enemies, calling for supporters to, okay, i got it saying that the legal proces for extraditing for somebody for one state to another i something that will not be followed a florida governor, trum decides not gonna turn himself in and stay in florida comin get me, florida is not going t allow that process to go forward because it is a former president, because it's donald trump. that could break us. indicting a president, indicting a politician is normal thing in this country trying to the legal system n longer applies in this country if you try to apply it to ou political guy, that is something that can break the rule of law in this country. if anything it is the firs proverbial shot at fort sumter today. that shot was fired not by donald trump by ron desantis

now in terms of next steps here's what we think we ca expect now that mr. trump has bee indicted, that basically leads to potential paths he could turn himself in and voluntarily surrender to the manhattan da's office. he could refuse to surrender and forced authorities to go get him. this would mean handcuffing hi and arresting him and taking him into the custody against a well donald trump, according to his lawyers, plans to take optio number one he has to lawyers assigned t represent him in this case, jo top peña in susan echola's, an one of his lawyers told nb news is expected to be rain on tuesday. the first statement was, the expect him to turn himself i to be arraigned early next week the second statement had mor specificity. it said on tuesday that guidance, again, from his lawyers, indicates trump intends to self surrender. he will turn himself int authorities on tuesday the da's office says it'

already been in triage wit trump's legal team about coordinating the surrender but tonight the former president is currently i florida, where he now lives. if he does decide to himself i on tuesday he'll have to trave to new york city and reporting the mass track to manhattan' trust attorney's office. there he will be formall arrested he will be fingerprinted he will have his mugshot taken he will be read his mirand rights all of this will happen unde the supervision of his secre service detail which protect him everywhere he goes the secret service is required by law to protect not just current presidents but als former presidents at all times and presumably that means even while they're being arrested and arraigned and fingerprinte and having their mugshot taken up until that point in the process all of that woul happen behind closed doors the next part we might actuall see after he's booked an processed which for trump woul be transported to the courtroo adjacent to the da's office. typically there are brought to the public entrance but as

possible authorities could fin a way to give him privat entrance into the court. it's also typical fo defendants brought up on felon charges to be handcuffed upo their arrival to this court. it's possible that exception would be made for the former president, but we don't know finally, donald trump will b brought before a judge for his formal arraignment the judge will ask him to offe his plea i whether he's guilty or not guilty trumps lawyers have already said he intends to vigorously fight th charges, so we assume that means pleaded not guilty after that trump will be given a date for when he is next required to appear in court, and then presumably he will be free to go given the nature of the charges that we ar expecting here and we're guessing he'll be required t post bail. i say the charges we are expecting because we haven't actually seen the charges yet. normal procedure would bsealed e arraignment. however, abc's jonathan gaet tonight reports operations are

underway about unsealing the indictment before he is a rain the way in this edition of whether the indictment shoul be unsealed ahead of what' expected to be a tuesday arraignment. at the least though, if he doe turn himself in we expect to see the indictment at th latest by tuesday when he is expected to be arraigned that of course implies he's no gonna stay in florida and trie to set up some sort of not political but physical conflic in which rhonda santas tries t prevent law enforcement from being allowed to get him and arrest him while he refuses to turn himself in. nbc news is reporting that trump is expected to appea before a judge after 2:15 pm o tuesday afternoon and th fuzziness around that question in the proclamation of refusal to abide by the legal proces

cast a shadow over that. that does make this, what ough to be a boring thing makes thi now a moment that is hard to predict. two news now is katherin christian, a veteran of th same manhattan de strict offic that brought this indictment against donald trump miss christian, thank you fo being here it's a pleasure to have yo with us. >> glad to be here, rachel >> first of all, i'm not even lawyer and i'm in a very uncharted territory here i talking about these matters. let me first ask you, based on your understanding of thes things, if i explain anythin the wrong way. >> you've got everything right he will be, with the exception of the fact that he is a forme president, and he's dom trump, and there will be a circus downtown manhattan on the da that he does arrive for that arraignment. he will have his arrest phot taken, he will be fingerprinted, he will be escorted into the

courtroom, and you are correct will it be through the front doors, will it be at the request of the secret service, quite frankly, for security. will it be through a sid entrance, and he will appear with his attorneys before th judge, the prosecutors who are assigned to the case will be o the other side, and if tha indictment is not unsealed that will be the first tim when we will actually hear the charges that the grand jury ha brought against mr. trump, and he will be arraigned on that indictment, in that courtroom, to 15 on tuesday i don't anticipate that he's gonna be hiding out in florida i think if manhattan the aid talking to his attorneys the expectation is that he wil show up on tuesday to be arraigned. >> i think everybody is hoping that that's the case, because think it's worrying. it feels very unsettling t consider the alternate possibility. but let me ask you to consider that alternate possibility all signs do point to hi surrendering to the da's office, but if he did change his mind, if he decided to push th

country into the abyss here, i he decided to refuse to turn himself in, what do you thin would happen can you extrapolate from the experience of other defendants and other circumstances wh might have made a bad decision like that to try to forecast for us what it might be like i he makes that same band surgeon? >> you threw the monkey wrench in because what happen typically when you have defendant who is out of state, they either waive extraditio if they don't then new yor would ask the governor of that state for a governors warran to be signed for that defendan to then be brought back to new york and here you have said, well, you have read, that this was a tweet from the governo of florida saying he would not participate and would no assist the state of new york i doing that so if you care about the rul of law, that is sort of blowin it up carrying about the ruler you are fine with as long as the indictment was done justly and wa

reasonable cause, the evidence was brought against mr. trump, then you believe that yo should not treat mr. trump any differently than john doe. i'm glad you made the point of saying there are 117 indictments for falsifying business records in manhatta under mr. bragg, who has onl been da for, i guess, 14 months so it is not a unique charge it is a common charge in a white-collar investigation what is maybe unique about it, it if it's true, is the fact that it involves the forme president who before he wa president, running for president, gave hush money to porn star. those are very unique facts. but if the evidence shows that he committed the crime beyon reasonable doubt, then you'r following the rule of law. you're telling people whethe you are sanitation worker, whether you're a pilot, or whether your former president, you will be treated equall under the law. >> let me ask, you based o your experience in the offic

in question here and you knowledge of alvin bragg, think that there's been a lo of worry and concern about the intimidation and the threats o a drug directed towards mr bragg and toward the office. with the former presiden himself promising, literally death and destruction an calling mr. bragg an animal an using the most provocative possible language and tellin his supporters, effectively, that if you're looking t replace the channel what you are feeling right now what, i' telling you to feel right no channeled him, i wonder if you could give some sort of insigh into how mr. bragg would handl that kind of pressure and hous office would bear up under tha kind of really extraordinary improper pressure? >> he said it best, i thin

even before mr. trump said tha very dangerous rhetoric, tha the manhattan da's office will not be intimidated by threats, bad press, unfortunately mr. trump said, and i'll say, it dangerous rhetoric, becaus it's almost close to inciting riot i'm not saying that's what h did because that is a crime, but when you are there and you're taking a photo with a baseball bat and you have photo of the da next to it and you're saying these outrageous things, you can, you know, incite people who already ar on the edge, and it makes it very dangerous because you hav people who work in that office over 1000 people who come to work every day and most of the have nothing whatsoever to d with this investigation. they're trying cases, they'r going to the grand jury an other cases and they have to walk to work and be concerne about, you know, some not very stable person who listens to

this dangerous rhetoric. but i do think that mr. brag and the staff, they're jus going to go about thei business yes, it's going to be a circus on tuesday when mr. trump show up but as you said, it will go on and it will be adjourned and the courthouse will continue going, and there are going t be other defendants there fo their cases and they're no gonna care what's happening in the courtroom with mr. trump >> and based on the odds in ne york, there's a fair chanc some of those on the defendant might also be electe officials. kathryn christian, former pe special assistant da in th manhattan da's office. in valuable to have you here with us tonight. thank you. let's let's talk to andrew weissmann. one of the senior prosecutor on the robert mueller specia counsel investigation. andrew, what a day thank you for making time to b here tonight >> you're welcome. did it make your hair stand up

the wrong way or did it or acute work you otherwise when said that this is likely to be boring i believe that these charges what we expect them to be an what we have seen of other charges even brought against donald trump in a manhatta criminal court, i feel like we ought to let people know tha this might be something that i sort of like watching pain dry. it might be a little boring. as a prosecutor who has fought many white-collar cases, doe that bother you? did i offend you >> you certainly didn't offend me, rachel i think there are a couple o points one, no matter how much on anticipates a day like this, when it actually happens there is, i think, for anybody, ther is a certain amount that i sinks in what this means i totally agree with you that former president is not immune and can be subject to charges.

but it is the case that it has never happened before. to your point about this now being boring, i think this goe to something you are saying. it's sort of the flip side tha we shouldn't be thinking of former president differently and because of that, the borin aspect that is about to happen which is this enormous tim delay between an indictment an a trial, is actually part of the rule of law. so for all of those people who have been waiting anxiously to see the former president hel to account, criminally, for hi conduct, part of that mean that you have to be patien because the rule of law that brought us to today requires that any defendant, no matte whether it you like them o don't like them, is entitled t time to prepare, to get th evidence from the government to think about what kind o defense they want to mount t make motions challenging the charges. all of that is part of the rul

of law, and people are entitle to that, whether it's a smal crime, whether it's john gaudy everyone is entitled to that process. just take one data point, th trump organization that yo referred to, it took 16 months for that to go from indictment to trial so it is a long process, but that process is what it mean to be part of the american criminal justice system. >> and i think, from the point of view of your perspective, having been a prosecutor having been inside that process, presenting that as time to prepare, time to properl litigate the motions, some things about the venue jurisdiction and what evidence and all those things that completely makes sense. i will also say, as an observer, it seems to me that it's not i the letter of the law but part of the spirit of due process it's all those so that the lobby administered in dispassionate way, not in hurry, not unduly delayed, but

also not something that is meted out in the heat of the moment or carried along in terms of public sentiment in a sense of drama. and the delay that you are talking about, that we saw i the trump organization in trial, which is proper, the delay you can expect in most trials that are like this because that's what it takes to do it properly, also has the effect, i think for everybody who's watching at, that trial, however closel they are watching, it fo whatever reasons, for whatever strong feelings they have four or against the defender th prosecution, the time is sor of a cooling saucer here i terms of making sure the peopl aren't dragging their emotions into this. i feel like, the reason i' highlighting that this is gonn be boring is that i think this is good news for the country but we're not gonna decide thi on the run >> absolutely.

the argument is, this is fro the sort of trump team is that this is selective prosecution, that alvin bragg acted politically. and it's really important to see that he is treated lik everyone else. remember, this is a da who initially said no to the charges they're not ready. that's a sign of certainly not having selected prosecutio that we're not going to bring case until it's absolutely ready and we're treating him just like we would anyone else as you mentioned, with charges that routinely brought new york so you're not treating a forme president, with sort of more weight but then anyone else or less weight, just like everyon else and that means this process is going to be one where ther isn't a show trial or kangaroo court, where it's really important for americans to see it for the world to see that the rule of law here ca work in a way that i think for

many people, including myself, i think many people were givin up hope that there would b accountability and then that process play out. and if donald trump can win in the sense that the governmen has not proved its case beyond a reasonable doubt to unanimou jury, that is the way th system is supposed to work that is the rule of law an play and we have to have faith in the same system that led t today in watching this g forward. >> andrew weissmann, when th senior prosecutors on th robert mueller investigation former fbi general counsel, an just an invaluable colleague t us here at nbc at msnbc. andrew, thank you very much. we don't yet know the exac charges on which forme president trump has been indicted that indictment is still under seal it will not be unsealed until judge decides to unseal it but from what we do know the charges appear to stem from th case in which trump got a ne

nickname the case in which trump wa labeled by federal prosecutors at as tmi as individual one. this is that keith back to the beginning. in 2018, federal prosecutors i new york said trump directed the commission of the felony scheme by which illega contributions were made to his presidential campaign in the form of hundreds of thousand of dollars in payments to tw women. those payments were to sto those women from speakin publicly before the election about allegedly having affairs with donald trump. mr. trump was identified a individual widen in this schem in prosecutors spelled out i court documents that h directed the commission of those felonies that you will recall the onl person who has was eve prosecuted for that scheme and was went to prison was mr. trump's attorney, michae cohen. even though prosecutors said they had evidence that cohen only committed the crime and the direction of president

trump and for the benefit of president trump. they never charge presiden trump. we now know, because the u.s attorney at the time has spilled the beans about it he's written a book about it we now know that trump appointees at the department o justice ordered federa prosecutors to stop that investigation, to stop their inquiries relayed to that case after they charged michael cohen. according to former u.s. attorney jeffrey berman, the trump justice department repeatedly interfered in tha investigation after cohen wa convicted. jeff berman wrote a book about it dispels at all route. when bill barr took over his attorney in february 2019, h not only try to kill the ongoing investigations, bu incredibly suggested that mike the cohen's conviction o campaign finance charges b reversed barr summoned statewid officials to challenge the basis of cohen's plea as wel as the reason behind pursuin similar campaign finance charges against othe individuals.

fdny investigators were ordere by trump appointees at the justice department washington, they were ordered to, quote, cease all investigative work o the campaign finance allegations. so federal prosecutors did they seized all work aren't they prosecuted michael cohen for, it and in so doin these and michael cohen only d this because trump told him to and then they kept working o it, working on save the othe people who were that crime and bill barr came in as trump supported internal general and said no no no, stop working on that that's how we got here > because federal prosecutors di drop the case when they were told to. and only then, more than halfway through trump's term a president, could state prosecutors the manhandled strict treaties of his pick up their own version of the investigation. now the journalist who wrote the book on trump's attorney general, bill barr, and hi

tenure as, essentially, trump' bodyguard at doj, that journalist is david and davi brody rohde now says how trump may be able to bring pressur to bear and state prosecutor on judges and even jurors. former prosecutors telling david rohde for the new yorker that the judge and prosecutors in this trump case in new york quote, cannot ignore one typ of comment from trump, threats of violence agains participants at the trial. trump's rhetoric could mak manhattan jurors reluctant t serve in a trial, fearing they could face attacks fro supporters along with everything else, th judge in this case, an everybody else involved in thi case, is gonna have to figur out how to contend with wher it is likely to be intense pressure and likely threat threats of violence from trump and his allies joining us now is david rohde, executive editor of news new

yorker.com, writer of the book in deep, the legs to which bil barr went to the protect lon trump, which is what got u here today in some ways. good to see you here today david. >> thanks for having me. >> do you think it is fair t see this indictment today as the sort of fruit that this, that was grown on the tree tha was bill barr? when bill barr came in basically to protect trump a the u.s. justice department, did that effectively set i motion the chain of events o the timeline that led to thi indictment today >> it did, and it's partly thi crazy theory that sittin presidents cannot be indicted. this office of legal counsel opinion in the justice department that came up so man times in the mueller investigation, it came up agai in the cohen case, and if we had a more functional congress

that would be, i think, reform that would help our democracy, the president aren't immune from prosecution or investigation in all form by the justice departmen mother in office now we are here today. was trump clearly, and when th cohen papers trump was individual one, can alvin brag convince a manhattan jury that was true beyond reasonable doubt. and you mentioned the threats. we can talk about that more, but that is the concern here a critical player in this tria is gonna be the judge and ho you give donald trump a fair trial. i completely agreed with wha was said earlier by andrew let's calm down. let's let the system work. if donald trump is acquitted that's fine. let's swear system works but i'm very concerned about how can a judge make this fair trial without making it a crazy trial where jurors fee intimidated.

>> david i know you spoke with prosecutors who have handled cases against trump allies particularly trump allies wh were sort of cut from the same cloth as he is, people lik roger stone, what do they tell you? what do you can extrapolat from those earlier cases i terms of how this one might go >> when trump is arraigned h will be released on bail that's normal. that's for any non violent crime. but there's a series o conditions he then agrees to with the judge he so he coul be out on bail and participate in the trial he has got to obey with th judge tells him and what happened in the roger ston child trial. this is the famous dirty trickster trump allied back to the nixon era. at 1.3 roger stone's trial h posted a picture of the judg in his case and there was crosshairs like a target besid her face she then, and it's a rage judge, indulges could use this as a defendant.

she issued a partial gag order that barred roger stone from posting anything onlin regarding that trial you can imagine what would happen if donald trump, if a judge of the upcoming tria where to limit his ability t speak online and the most extreme step that a judge could take, and this i the issue here, if he is intimidating jurors with threats of violence and trum continues to do that and he' denying, sorry, defining defying judges orders, the judge can jail him they can revoke his bail that's why the judges this critical player this frankly it's in donald trump's interests to stay calm and t act calmly insanely and say i' not afraid of his trial. i trust the system, i trus jurors but he certainly doesn't have history that >> david, i have to ask you to speculate. i'm asking for speculation here, which i apologize for, but you

better than me in this case. we did have a statement tonigh from florida governor ro desantis, governor in the stat where trump lives, saying th florida will not dissipate i the extradition caught process in this case because of ex bad things about the prosecution and which echoed exactly wha trump saving complaining about this indictment. if trump chooses not to turn himself in, his lawyers ar saying he will, but if h chooses not to, if he doesn't, daring law enforcement camer estimate dragging him in handcuffs, because you're no gonna come in voluntarily, and florida law enforcement ha been directed by the governo to not facilitate that process how does that move in how. do you envision that happening >> it ends terribly for americ >> we saw that same reaction from americans and from rhonda santas

they say this is a weak case this trial could help donald trump. his poll numbers will likely surge in the weeks ahead he'll be able to raise mor money. and, again, if he can ac calmly and trust the legal process, involuntarily come to new york, that could even help him politically. this could all backfire, frankly, for people who want t see him convicted. even if he is convicted he can still run from jail. eugene v debs, convicted under the espionage act, he ran fo the president in jail. the worst case scenarios the trump stays in mar-a-lago. santa maintains his position and you have a breakdown int the basic function of the rule of law in our country. he's innocent now. he's innocent till prove guilty people come to court every day in this country, particularl for nonviolent veggies they get, arraigned can't bail or go through trials you get a fair trial i hope he comes to new york.

i have governor desantis stops with this kind of rhetoric tha is just further destabilizin the situation and furthe polarizing it and we will se what happens but it is much better for this country to have a calm peacefu proper and fair trial fo donald trump that's the best thing for ou democracy >> i would say, than you for that my feeling, just my personal opinion on this, i feel like the one truly dangerous thin that has happened today in terms of the future the countr is something that was said b governor desantis, not b anybody on either side of this legal matter but let's hope it's beside the point in the end executive editor for news at the new yorker, david rohde, thank you. >> we go tonight the forme president posted online th statement, he said our country is being destroyed as they tel us to be peaceful.

implying that they don't kno what they're talking about they are telling us to b peaceful do you believe that? this was a reference to hi looming indictment by th manhattan district attorne alvin bragg. later that day trump posted an article online, along with thi picture of himself, an juxtaposed photo self wielding a baseball bat toward the head of manhattan district attorney alvin bragg. and the next day he said this, quote, potential death and destruction in such a fals charge could be catastrophic for our country. then on saturday, trump flew t waco, texas, for what he bille as the first campaign rally. he could've chosen any remed picked a place famous around the country and around the world, frankly, for a 1993 standoff between federal agent and a religious cult that ha been stockpiling guns. that standoff ended with round 80 people dead as the houston chronicle put it,

quote, waco has become an alam of sorts, shrine for the proud boys, the three percenters the oath keepers and other ant government extremists an conspiracists. as an example, in the cyclis deadliest attack - in oklahoma city bombing, on of the yuppie pulse eddie wa hoping to end the war, that he said waco started. waco started this war, hopefully oklahoma would end it well, going to waco to start his presidential campaign. trump started his rally by pledging allegiance that the flag, while video of the january 6th attack on the u.s. capitol played behind him. trump has been, not subtle i pushing his followers to hav an extreme reaction to thi indictment potentially even a violent one he's doing that whil simultaneously praisin previous violent actions by hi supporters now that he's been indicted, one of the big questions is ho his most extreme followers

going to react and that's an unknown at thi point. it's something that's evolving as we speak. we're gonna be joined in just moment by ben collins, who's a senior reporter covering disinformation, extremism, and the internet for nbc news. we've got that now ben collins, thanks so much fo being with us tonight, then, i really appreciate it >> thanks for having me, rachel >> so we knew this was comin but we did know when trump has been trying to creat a media environment around himself and which he defines for his followers this sort of reaction they're supposed to have when this eventuality actually occurs. now that it has occurred, have to ask, what you ar seeing online in terms of th more extreme corners of th sort of ultra right and th hall hard-core trump supportin role world >> okay, on the donald, whic

is a website to pretty muc planned january 6th, which i still fresh in their minds, by the way, which you can see - we on the donald the top post and reaction to this, is just a word accelerat in all caps. and as much part of a marc larger movement in both whit supremacist movement o acceleration-ism which is the idea that everything needs to be broke down everything needs to be fough for. basically to destroy the state in order to rebuild it and that's become a very popular idea both and th bannon right and the pro trump right for the past couple of years. they think that they're unde attack and they must destroy the state. not just a deep state but th whole thing. this is a part of trumpism it's not the whole thing your average next door republican does not believe th stuff. but, the deep dark parts o donald trump, and of his bas have been leading into the

stuff recently and when i say accelerate, the don't mean to another januar 6th, necessarily they're talking about usin their guns independently, or doxxing members of the grand jury they said the grand jury's guilty of treason, so we hav to dodge the, that's going o in the spaces right now. it's a lot more focused on individual acts of resistanc and violence and we've seen that over the past few years we've seen that for people lik cesar say arc the maga bombe who is obsessed with georg soros. who's the bogeyman again conde and as recently as august, after mar-a-lago was raided by the u.s. - this is what is focused on now these little acts of resistanc in favor of donald trump >> let me ask you about th shortest point you jus mentioned in the sort of typically unhinged trump style

response to the news of th indictment, we saw lots of references to george soros and then in a statement, i think the very provocative dat statement from rhonda scent is that florida will no participate in the extradition of rush trump from russia face charges, he mentioned the name soils twice, as a way of the writing the district attorney, who has brought these charge or that the grand joy to bring these charges, for those who might not watch the news all the time that are watching tonight because it seems like historic night, and big news can you just walk us through why they keep talking abou george soros but that means an where the dogs they're willing to, when they use his name repeatedly, in a way they ma not be able to stop themselves from doing today >> so the innocent questio you'll hear from understands i donald trump and donald trum jr., we'll invoke george russell's name tonight respond to connections to alvin bragg.

>> white supremacists in antisemites whole kind of us that word does name george soros as a stand in for jews for jewish money that's what you saw in 2018, the county just, saw the mag palmer guy who sent all thos pipe bombs to anti trump publi figures he posted much screens online about how it all relate back to george soros and you can just trace back to him middle stop we also accuse george soros of paying off a parkland student some really grim stuff we each week after 2018 robert bowers would have the synagogu he also cited george soros was somehow responsible for th migrant caravan and all th stuff. these are wild conspirac theories used to be kind o remote into the base is talkin

about in the republican part but you wouldn't bring it up now that talk to people in the united states, running for president, are in fact invokin him as a way to stop that side of the base. say, yeah, there's a dark mone problem, and maybe it's coming from something deeper than that that's what they're writin with right now on the center o the center right that's where you get spooky. and so the dog whistle is on the center-right, imagine wher the extremes are >> i, when there's not been an sort of visible dividing line, between what counts is extremism, and working wit antisemitism to try to activat the worst possible responses i your followers who seems to be a dividing line between that craziness and was councils mainstream electoral politic and then at different sort o threat environment >> then collins, senio

reporter for nbc news, thank for keeping an eye on it >> all right, well he's a ma who knew donald trump woul continue to do what he is doin to abuse his power, they sai that him getting away within the french, innocenc especially been brought up o charges would make him worse until that if you keep doing it he did warn us >> it doesn't matter whether you like it doesn't matter whether you dislike him that matters is whether he is a danger to the country, because he will do it again. none of us can have confidence based on his record that h will not do it again because h is telling us every day that h will >> california congressman adam schiff led the first

impeachment then dot president on trump over him withholdin military aid to ukrain attempting to pressure tha country to announce an investigation into trump's political rival joe biden. after repeatedly sounding th alarm about trump's behavior if left in office and if never held accountable congressman schiff paid played a pivotal role in the januar 6th investigation in congress. -- when is now a man who's been telling us this was coming for a long time. california congressman jim i'm schiff -- so our thanks for being with u tonight is nice to see you >> good to see you >> let me just ask you your to line reaction to this news no one level says relatively run-of-the-mill white collar crime indictment that we believe is about to be unseale in new york in coming days on the other hand this i history. it's the first time a former

president and said to face formal charges of any kind >> it is a sad and soberin they and the life of our country. it's the first time a presiden was indicted for crimina charges. so also i think the vindicatio of the rule of law, th principle that people should b held accountable whether the rich and powerful, whether they're presidents for forme presidents, or whether they're ordinary citizens. prosecutor should follow the evidence, in philly is to go because they're directing th corals scheme, than the one wh did the directing should als be held to account on the same time as wearing to see once again known trump engage in inciting his supporters essentially threatening deat and destruction if we were indicted is he's now been. and it demonstrates, i think -- i think it would be more perilous if we didn't observ

the rule of law. if we brad just respect for th law. if we treated him differently, they'll be more dangerous, and so this is necessary but obviously, for momentous and tragic day >> if you have anything by way of lessons learned, has someon who's been personally targeted by trump minister quarters because of your efforts in trying to hold him accountable and trying to investigat things he's been involved in urine all the january si committee members allowed to b unsecured in that investigation. >> - any lessons learned about th new pattern americans who ar about to go through that sam process. >> i don't know whether this i a lesson learned, most certainly cause for grea concern.

-- it's gonna be very much anothe thing for an ordinary citize in new york because this is on this jury and you were about the extraordinary pressure and those ordinary citizens doin their duty will face and obviously i've ever made t protect time something that' necessary in this countr awhile began with threats to members of congress we now see school board members threatene we see city councilors and county supervisors simply doin their job and now we wil likely see jurors who are also the subject of threats and s anticipating that we need to take steps to protect everyone and we also i think need to ge across the message that th

courts decide this isn't a cause for celebration on the one hand it's not a, cause it never, is for violence on the other. we'll get through this, bu we're gonna have to be careful >> california congressman adam schiff, lead impeachment manager in the first to impeac trump in the january six investigation, reall appreciate you being her tonight. >> there is a new york times that first broke historic news today. >> two very stark words that help the home page trump indicted here's what i looks for the l.a. times here's the washington post trump indicted we have the early version of tomorrow's washington rampag imprint. this is the full weight of the front page here's the new york post onlin -- as well as the alvin bragg and

with grandeur indites trump an a big pair of handcuffs. and his former president donal trump -- joining us now is michae beschloss, nbc new presidential historian i've been looking for talkin to censor the news >> thank you rachel. tell me about this never happened before this is historical this is brand-new what in history does latest of this moment. one of the analogous moments w should be looking for. >> we have light presidents ru

roughshod. richard nixon did also say things probably obstruction of justice and other things wil certainly would've bee indicted and sent to prison. if gerald ford had not - become zambian colonel process nixon and trump were very clos in nixon's retirement trump go him to consider moving to trum tower. nixon wrote a letter saying he should run for office trum wrote nixon letter saying he was a great man. so it was a lesson lesson an nixon was. you can obstruct justice you can almost bring down democracy but you'll get pardoned in the end by geral ford those days are over as o tonight and thank. and we no longer have th danger of a lawless presiden who can do terrible things assuming - >> what was th