and now it's not that means that goes off the table. other prosecutors may not have to wrestle with that question. we're dealing with something that is a jurisdictional priority in new york, which means national republican politics have no impact on it. even if a republican takes back the white house, there will be no pardon for donald trump in new york, because this is a local case that may scare him, too. p people like steve bannon and others that got into trouble and got a pardon, there is no pardon here when you look at the other cases, you have the january 6th investigation, which are federal in d.c., and local in georgia, where another local prosecutor could act, because the attempted coup involved alleged crimes in georgia. and you have the classified documents case if none of this seems normal, that's because we have been living through a prolonged state of an abnormal time, where

someone who used to be president and currently running to be president again, is caught up in so many allegations of misconduct, of crimes. and so everything changes now. i mentioned this once earlier tonight. we will remember march 30th. it will be marked in the history books. the future is unwritten, whether it's marked at the beginning of a trial that sends someone to prison or the beginning of a process that cleared his name. we can't tell you that and anyone that tries to p prejudge that might be getting ahead of the process but is the end of a period where donald trump was not legally held to account. and today, in the rest of donald trump's life are different, as he learns, perhaps for the first time in his life, what it is to be completely out of control, to have to react to a government and propecsecutorial system whe his antics do not matter

what matters is what a judge says, what a jury of his peers says not what he says or posts. so we're going forward on this together it is a big and historic night we'll keep all of this, the facts, the law, and the rule of law, central as we cover this for you. i'm going to bring joyce vance in, who has been with us, and as we go to joyce, do i have you? we're going to keep our coverage going, as i said but e mentioned at one point we thought we had a clip. that's what breaking coverage is like this is west palm beach, florida, at 7:01 p.m. on the east coast josh marshal is with me. josh, i was giving a final thought at the end of the last hour this is now the start of the 7:00 p.m. hour, and our special coverage on msnbc. josh, i wanted to ask you if you wanted to respond to the point i was making is, this has been

such a jumble at times of different investigations of trump that it's easy to forget where he got out of this or that and the mueller probe, we heard from a mueller vet who explained why they thought he committed obstruction, that's not indictable that doesn't have anything to do with donald trump strategy, those are just rules he benefited from there have been the pardons that helped trump allies. i reminded viewers that's federal. there is no election, no federal development that could rescue donald trump from this indictment in new york >> yeah. you know, it's -- there is -- it's understandable in a way, because americans have seen donald trump get away with quite a lot. and there's kind of a comfortable cynicism that we can

fall into. oh, he's never going to be held accountable. the fix is in, stuff like that and, again, there is -- it's understandable that people have felt that way. but as you say, a -- for a sitting president, a sitting president has, yes, they're not above the law. but they can be pretty close they have all sorts of powers that they can just get out of stuff. and so as, as you were saying earlier, there are reasons that he didn't face the music for the stuff in the mueller probe there is a standing practice, you can't indict a sitting president. there's other things, and this is really important, that, you know, a sitting president, is he obstructing justice or following his constitutional power and duty to see that the law is, you

know, see that the law is followed now, that might sound funny, but that gets complicated in a, in a criminal process even if, even if donald trump has been impeached and removed from office. he is -- he runs the justice department he's not supposed to run it directly but there's all sorts of complexities, as long as the person is still president, has those powers he has the pardon power. once you're out of office, that changes. and that is why, you know, this has been a long time coming. it's understandable that people have gotten abntsy, wondering wh it was taking so long. now it's here, and i suspect maybe even accelerated by the events of today. you'll have other indictments, too. so you have to give things time sometimes, but now it's

happening. >> you really laid that out, and that's the intangible part of all this josh, thank you very much. i am ari melber. as we follow the indictment of donald trump, huge breaking news msnbc has got you covered with joy reid continuing our coverage now. aware, we have major historic breaking news tonight. for the first time in our country's history, a former united states president is facing criminal charges. the manhattan grand jury has voted to indict donald trump for his role in the hush money payment to adult film star stormy daniels during his 2016 presidential campaign. again, this is the first time in history that this has happened in the united states two sources familiar with the situation told nbc news that trump's attorneys have been

notified that he has been indicted the exact charges are unknown, because indictments are typically filed under seal after a grand jury's vote. in new york, the manhattan district attorney was known to be focusing on a felony charge of falsifying business records it's a charge that carries a maximum prison sentence of four years. according to nbc news, the white house is not expected to make a statement or comment at this time donald trump, however, has responded, calling the move political persecution, and a witch hunt trump's attorney told nbc news that he's expected to surrender to the manhattan d.a.'s office early next week. "the new york times" is reporting that trump is expected to walk through the routine steps of felony arrests in new york he will be booked, fingerprinted, possibly handcuffed another first for the former president, who will be the nation's first former president

to face criminal charges si it is a stunning moment for this nation joining me now is former senator claire mccaskill, barbara mcquaid, law professor at the qu university of michigan charles coleman, former prosecutor and civil rights attorney and my colleague, ari melber, host of "the beat" and msnbc chief legal correspondent, who will do some overtime with me right now. ari, you were making a great dealry -- you were making a great point. it is a joyless occasion in america when this is happening but there is a tendency, i think, to make everything into politics obviously, a d.a. is a politically elected official donald trump is a former elected official, a former president but at the end, just break down for us, you know, the context for it is that he's just a

citizen, donald trump, right and a fellow citizen was indicted for participation in this same scheme and so while it is shocking, it shouldn't necessarily be surprising that the individual one named in the case against michael cohen would himself face indictment is that a fair way to look at it >> yeah, i think you laid that out well, joy. when we look at all the different delays and things that have gone down, people say why is this happening now, why is this the case? this was a case not only federally charged but federally convicted pursuant to the trump campaign and donald trump's activities so as his lawyer or representative, his agent got in trouble for it, why wouldn't he? in some ways, these facts are older, but more developed. and so, what you're dealing with here tonight is this accountability that he had

evaded before, so people think that's less likely, or why not go to one of the bigger cases. yeah, al capone got in trouble for tax evasion. the d.a.'s job is not to compare crimes and decide who goes first. the d.a.'s job in new york is to see whether there is a chargeable offense and he found one. as you alluded to, the news has exploded across america tonight. today is the first day of the rest of donald trump's life. he's going to learn very quickly what it's like to be out of control, to be on the other side of this process, to have his life and liberty in the control of other humans. a judge, and a jury, and he is legally presumed innocent and entitled to a fair trial by his peers, but he will learn how different it's going to be >> you know what's interesting is, we're in the business of covering a lot of politics here on both of our shows and covering a lot of spectacle. donald trump is an expert at

spectacle. but to the point you just made, spectacle and the show that he likely will try to make of this, doesn't really work on prosecutors. it doesn't really work in court. so donald trump can create atmospherics around what is happening, but to your point, he can't control what is happening, and he's used to not being held to the same account as an ordinary person. >> that's the ultimate tonight is so big, because that's the ultimate stress test. not whether we're country as a country, we're not

but having been pushed this far by someone like this, and to be clear, i'm not talking about donald trump's idealology or po things people might rightly find objectionable. i'm talking about someone who tried to lie and cheat and steal an election and end american democracy. the charges in new york relate to the more old school lying and stealing and what they allege will be some sort of fraud, financial fraud, campaign fraud, but we don't have it unsealed yet. but it relates to things he did going into his first presidential election. but with everything we also know since then, if you have a cleave in the country between people who say, oh, gosh, but someone once had a powerful title, we should never hold them to account skrx the rest of the people who are saying is it rule of law or not, is no person above the law or not the people saying rule of law have the better side of the

american principle, what we should aspire to that doesn't mean he's automatically convicted. it doesn't mean he can't still beat this case it does mean today is different, his life is different, and america can rise up to the standard of saying yeah, no person above the law >> yeah, indeed. this is the proof we have a citizen president. the idea of having a citizen president to the george washington example, after you're president, you go back to being a citizen and are jsubject to te same laws. barbara, i want to anticipate some of the questions people might have, because i think for a lot of people, this did not seem like the most momentous potential case that donald trump could face there's obviously the fani willis case, which is literally about trying to overturn a state's lawfully held election there's all of what jack smith is investigating, everything from secreting government documents that donald trump was not entitled to, having them at mar-a-lago, and not giving them

back, and possible obstruction and possibly drawing his lawyers into obstruction, and obviously, everything related to january 6th. so let's talk about some of the questions that that might bring up among folks who are looking at this being the first case to drop and we don't know that any other case will drop, i should say that as well we don't know if donald trump will face more on this case, if you could start with the question of the age of the case whether this case, because it is not new, this is something that happened, you know, years ago. and he was never prosecuted for it by the federal officials who prosecuted michael cohen what does that say to you, that this is a state prosecution based on the same facts as the federal prosecution, but he was never pursued for that, what do you make of the fact that he theoretically might be pursued for the now? >> yeah, it seems, joy, that donald trump's misconduct is a distraction from donald trump's

misconduct there's so much swirling around, it's difficult to put these together but the age of it, no doubt, is not a great fact for alvin bragg. but it is what it is a prosecutor doesn't get to create the facts they respond to the facts and prosecute facts when they amount to a crime so if you compare this to other cases or the fact that federal prosecutors didn't pursue it, it's not going to matter to a jury when a jury hears the evidence, the court is going to instruct them to simply assess the facts and decide if the law was broken they're not going to say this is too old to bring, not going to say we have heard this all before they're not going to hear for whatever reason the feds didn't bring it they're just going to hear the facts and make a decision about the law. they're not going to hear about what's going on in florida or d.c. >> right and also, just to be clear, barb, lay out for people the nuts and bolts of this this is not the d.a. indicting donald trump it's the grand jury listening to

facts, listening to the evidence, listening to testimony, and then this, we don't know how many people, 20, 22 people indicting donald trump. is that an accurate way to put it >> yeah, you know, the check on abuse of a prosecutor's power is the legal system, due process. as you say, a grand jury made a finding of probable cause to believe a crime has been committed here it's a fairly low threshold. prosecutors are ethically bound to bring a case only when they believe they can prove it to a jury in court beyond a reasonable doubt so as this case goes forward, donald trump can say whatever he wants outside of the courtroom, but in the courtroom, he will receive due process. they will cross-examine witnesses and the prosecutor will be held to proof beyond a reasonable doubt >> we have a statement now for a spokesperson for d.a. alvin bragg. >> this evening, we contacted mr. trump's attorney to coordinate his surrender to the manhattan d.a.'s office for

arraignment on a supreme court indictment which remains under seal guidance will be provided when the arraignment date is selected let's bring in nbc news national correspondent gabe gutierrez outside the d.a.'s office in lower manhattan. what is the atmosphere like there? donald trump had led us to believe it could be a raucous atmosphere, but what are you seeing and hearing, gabe >> reporter: hi, there, joy. first, let me tell you that just within the past few seconds, we saw d.a. alvin bragg's car pull out of here. there was a crush of media awaiting he had no comment. he did not speak to reporters. so he left here. we have noticed a huge security presence here, joy the nypd is down here, and over the past several weeks we have seen them install these security barricades right behind me the d.a.'s office is obviously in lower manhattan behind me as well i can tell you this is not the raucous atmosphere that former president trump thought might

happen he had been calling for protests for his supporters, and you'll recall, joy, it was former president trump himself who predicted earlier this month that he would be arrested last tuesday. that did not happen. but, you know, he had no direct knowledge of that, but now, the nypd is taking these threats very seriously because as you'll recall, last yeek, the d.a.'s office got that suspicious white powder that turned out to be harmless, but a death threat as well we're told from law enforcement sources there have been several doeszen serious threats that ha come to this office. an unprecedented attack on a prosecutor in an active grand jury investigation now, sources close to the matter who have been in touch with former president trump's attorneys say the next question is when might he be arraigned? we expect that to come some time next week, not tomorrow. earlier, and again, d.a. alvin

bragg just left the scene here, did not comment to reporters, joy. >> thanks, gabe gutierrez. if you see or hear anything, wave your hands and we'll come back to you. let me bring back charles coleman jr., ari melber, claire mccaskill as well as barbara mcquade. charles, i want to ask you about that, that last point. this now is putting alvin bragg in the history books this is a state prosecutor he's the manhattan d.a h he's now the first to go, if anyone else will go, they'll be after him. he's faced unprecedented threats. threats from donald trump. trump has used words like death and destruction and essentially promised mayhem or said there would be mayhem or could be. what do you make of the fact that this has now happened and the kind of atmosphere that this proceeding will take place under? >> well, joy, this is a day that so many have waited for the

because the two words i think about with respect to what we're talking about around the indictment is number one, accountability and with respect to alvin bragg, number two is trail blazer this is a person who has seen the evident, has decided to move forward, has pressed forward in light of a number of different reasons why many people would have turned back he's doing his job he's doing what he's supposed to do as a duly-elected law enforcement officer here in manhattan. he believes a crime was committed. he put it in front of the grand jury and now you're seeing citizen trump being treated the same way anyone else would and that's what d.a. bragg is doing, and that's his job. so i think he is to be commended for pressing forward in an environment that many people would have considered to be very, very political he has not let that bother him these may not necessarily be the most serious charges that donald trump faces, but they are the first charges that donald trump is going to face so in that way, he is blazing a

trail and setting a standard moving forward as to how prosecutors are supposed to treat citizen trump. >> indeed. let me read michael cohen's statement on trump's indictment. michael cohen was sentenced to prison and went to jail, six years for participating in a scheme for donald trump, and this is the statement. for the first time in our country's history, a president current or former of the united states, has been indicted. i take no pride in issuing this statement and wish to also remind everyone of the presumption of innocence as provided by the due process clause however, do take solace in validating the adage that no one is above the law not even a former president. and claire, one of the central park five, the exonerated five, they call themselves now, sent out a statement as well. it was a one-word statement, and it was karma i think there are some who might be feeling that way politically because this is the president, claire, who ran on lock her up,

his mantra when he ran for president against hillary clinton, was he wanted to imprison her now, donald trump will walk through the routine steps of felony arrest processing in new york he'll be fingerprinted, photographed, he may be handcuffed they may give an exception to that because of his status he will then appear before a judge, likely released on his own recognizance they're nonviolent felony charges. if he choses not to surrender, it will be governor ron desantis, his role to indict him. give us the sort of your contextual framing of what we're seeing today >> well, first, let's put in context michael cohen. i think -- you all have pointed this out, but i want to say it slowly so everyone understands, not just with michael cohen indicted

for the same facts and essentially the same crime, assuming this is the payment of hush money in violation of campaign finance laws and the covering up of those records illegally under new york law same facts, but remember who indicted michael cohen it was donald trump's justice department it wasn't a local democrat that ran for prosecutor it was bill barr who indicted michael cohen on these facts and i think it's so important to keep pointing that ut. if this is a made-up deal, then donald trump's own justice department ignored it and went ahead and put the man we're looking at right now in prison the other thing i think is important to point out is sure hope that donald trump is not given the opportunity that he seeks to be in handcuffs bragg's job is so hard right now, and that is he needs to

lower the temperature. he needs to make sure that he does not do anything to try this case in public opinion he needs to make sure that he has a jury selection that is rock solid, and he has to lower passions so we don't create a really dangerous situation the only job that's harder than alvin bragg's right now are trump's lawyers. barb pointed out that trump can say whatever he wants, but everything he does and says is now could be part of the evidence in the trial. could be part of the evidence in the trial. and he's not used to taking directions from anyone, much less his lawyers he obviously has already done some really stupid things around the facts of this case he's made admissions that will be very important in the case. he's done social media posts that are ridiculous. and could come into evidence

and those lawyers trying to control donald trump because he wants to fund-raise off this, he wants to run off this, he wants to incite off this, and the first thing the lawyer tells you when you're indicted for something or charged with something, is shut up. well, that's not in donald trump's repertoire so it's going to be very interesting to see if he can lower the temperature and try to defeat this case based on facts asopposed to the power of the personality. >> and claire, i take it you probably believe it is wise that the white house has no comment i wonder how long they'll be able to hold out on that >> i think they should never have a comment this is now about the facts and the law. and i think alvin bragg gets that i think anybody who is around this case would understand that. and i think the president probably understands the point i made a little earlier.

you do not want to enflame this situation anymore, because it's dangerous. we have already seen what this man can incite he's not only the first president to be indicted, he's the first president to be impeached twice, the first president to lose the popular vote twice he's the first president that refused to pass power peacefully and incited an insurrection. so i think everyone ought to try to lower the temperature and let the facts and the process speak for itself that's the way to restore the faith that the american people have in the rule of law in this country. >> well said, claire mccaskill, thank you very much. let me bring in reverend al sharpton, host of "politics nation" and president of the national action network. rev, one of the things donald trump has never experienced is being an ordinary man. he has gotten away with a lot over the course of his life, from when he and his father were able to settle out of a

discrimination case about not allowing black people to rent in his building, it's not clear he's paid taxes more than a couple years in his life he's gotten away with a lot, and a lot of his friends have gone to prison for things he did for him. allen weisselberg, paul manafort, michael cohen. you know this man, there's a lot of bravado coming out of his social media now and out of his son, but how do you think he really will react to the idea that he is going to be booked. he has been indicted >> well, i think first of all, a lot of us are forgetting donald trump just a couple days ago said this case was over. they were not going to go forward. and he predicted that this is not going to happen. well, it's happening so to the last minute, he was delusional that he was still

above the law and that no one could get him after saying some very bigoted and anti-semitic statements against alvin bragg, saying he was a soros funded animal this is what he called this man, an animal. the irony of this is twofold there may be cases that legal experts say appear to them more serious if he in fact is indicted in georgia and by the feds but this is by far the most humiliating indictment because he's going to be booked and charged in new york. and he always would say, he's said to me, i'm an outer borough guy, an outcast like you are, al, when we would be fighting on different issues you're from brooklyn, i'm from queens they call me and my father names, them big guys downtown, the park avenue guys, and look at me now. i'm going to be president of the united states. well, now those guys will look at this country and say, we told

you he was nothing we told you that he was a scam artist and that he shouldn't be president. for him to have to come to manhattan on the same island that he felt he was looked down upon by the elite in new york and be booked and confirm what all of them said about him is more humiliating than if he's indicted on more serious charges in other places. so this is a humiliating night for him. a couple days after he said this was not going to happen, he said this case was over, and he's going to have to go in the same building, joy, that those five young men that were indicted and prosecuted for rape they didn't do while donald trump took ads out calling for their execution, he called for them to be executed, and they were convicted. some of them went to jail for years. one of them who is a national action network every saturday, did 13 years in jail they will see donald trump who

bought ads against them, walking the same building they were arraigned in and be arraigned some time next week. i think if that's not ironic and in my case i agree with youssef salaam, you will reap what you sow. >> indeed, and that one-word statement was quite a statement. there also is a long history, two quick ironies, rev donald trump long wanted to be on the front of "the new york times. and he had a special obsession with "the new york times." and to your point about all of the carmic elements here, it was "the new york times" that initially broke this story so he made it onto the front of "the new york times. he wanted to be an historic figure he is now truly an historic figure, having been president, having been impeached twice and now having been the first president to be indicted there also is some irony, rev, that donald trump always counted on sort of having the d.a., the manhattan d.a. specifically in his pocket in a way, of being

able to befriend the d.a. and have a special relationship with the d.a. alvin bragg is an anathema to that he's not a d.a., doing the opposite he held a baseball bat or was pictured i should say holding a baseball bat seeming to loom over this d.a. this is an african american district attorney with whom he has no relationship and who he's attacking on social media. all of that is not helpful when he's being indicted by that very same man >> it is not helpful, it's harmful. we had a big prayer meeting in harlem for alvin bragg's family who is getting all kinds of threats and i'm sure they will increase, but let me also say this to you about what you just said let us not forget, alvin bragg was the same prosecutor that when he came into office last year would not go forward with the prosecution. he felt it was not enough, it wasn't winnable. so only someone that methodical,

that serious, that took all of the flack for not indicting him when he first came in would be proceeding now if i was donald trump, i would be very nervous because this is the kind of prosecutor that already said no, i don't see the case, that now sees the case, the means that he must have things that donald trump and the public never thought otherwise that alvin bragg i know would not be proceeding. donald trump should not sleep comfortably tonight. >> and we should note that michael cohen went before -- met with this grand jury, i mean met with this prosecutor something like 22 times and went before the grand jury he brought evidence with him, and you're right, clearly something in those conversations, in those interviews with michael cohen had an impact on d.a. bragg. >> and it may not -- it may not be just michael cohen. we don't know what he has. >> that's right. you're absolutely right. and we will find out over time thank you, reverend al sharpton.

let's bring in former fbi general counsel and senior member of the mueller probe, andrew weissmann andrew, always great to talk with you this is on an historic evening i do want to go back just for a moment to the dichotomy between these federal and state charges. because i think people, we talk a lot about the campaign finance aspect of this payoff to ms. daniels, to stormy daniels but this is a state prosecutor, so a federal election isn't in his purview. what we're talking about is the same fact, the same facts that put michael cohen in prison with a federal indictment, but these are state charges. so can you just talk about that dichotomy. we don't know what these charges are, they're still sealed, but it's looking more like something like falsifying business records, lying about the purpose of the funds not a campaign finance case.

is that accurate >> more or less it is. the way i used to look at this when i was a prosecutor is, i think a very human way of thinking about things which is there's a set of facts somebody you can prove has done a, b, c, and d and then at a lawyer, you take your sort of legal grid and say okay, what kind of laws did that violate? so there are federal laws and state laws and so the same set of facts can result in crimes such as wire fraud or mail fraud or securities fraud, and they can also result in certain state crimes it's one ball of wax in terms of what you're dealing with, but there are different trip wires you can have gone over in the course of that conduct so what you're seeing here is i think the same ball of wax where it resulted in federal crimes that michael cohen pled guilty

to and a federal judge agreed was a crime and sentenced him on, but at the same time, you can look at this because the feds didn't go forward for a whole variety of reasons, as state crimes that's what alvin bragg has now been confirmed done in bringing these charges and seeing what are the state crimes that are alleged. it's important to note that he may have found that a sort of enhancement for these state crimes comes from either state campaign laws or federal campaign laws. there is a way that they may form a part of the charges here, and it would be permissible potentially to do that, but we don't know yet that's something that a lot of legal nerds like me are waiting to see exactly how the charges play out >> there's so many people that were involved, sort of different pieces of the scream michael cohen pleaded guilty to tax evasion, false statements to a federally insured bank causing an unlawful corporate

contribution, excessive campaign contribution and false statements to the u.s. congress. all things associated with assisting donald trump in covering up this affair. allen weisselberg, who now has dropped his donald trump related lawyers, which is interesting. he pleaded guilty to grand larceny in the second degree, criminal tax fraud in the third degree, a scheme to defraud, conspiracy, criminal tax fraud, offering a false instrument. do you think there's a significance to him changing lawyers away from lawyers associated with donald trump in the last couple days >> i do, but i think with all due respect, as they say, i sort of view it potentially the opposite way in that i know the lawyers who used to represent allen weisselberg, the former cfo, who you correctly say has pleaded guilty to a host of crimes, and those were real

ethical lawyers. and i think that their spin was that they were independent there are reports that the d.a. was increasingly putting pressure on mr. weisselberg. there are facts alleged in letitia james' attorney general complaint that suggests mr. weisselberg has criminal liability for additional crimes, and his lawyers who took him through his guilty plea, they're real lawyers who represented him and not the organization and so i'm not saying -- casting aspersions on a new counsel, but i view it as a sign that mr. weisselberg may not be cooperating but he may in fact face additional charges. that is just a guess, i'm sort of inituting that from my own knowledge of these people and what i would do if i were unthat situation as a prosecutor and

how i would try to sort of bring additional charges with respect to mr. weisselberg to seek his cooperation and if he didn't cooperate, to hold him to account for additional crimes. >> interesting david pecker, and of course, this was the man from the national enquirer. he met twice with the grand jury and it was important in terms of trying to discredit the notes that the payments were just to protect from embarrassment to melania trump. this was in 2021, american media inc. a complaint with the federal election commission alleging they unlawfully aided trump in 2016, the fec found pecker and ami violated federal election laws by making a payment to playboy model karen mcdougal in order to purchase and bury a story about her 2006 affair with trump, and mr. pecker admitted the payments had been made in

order to help trump campaign so he's the other character, and of course, there's stormy daniels. let me read the response from ms. daniels' attorney. the indictment of donald trump is no cause for joy. the hard work and conscientiousness of the jurors must be respected. now let truth and justice prevail. no one is above the law. and now let me read the statement from ron desantis, the just went away he has issued a statement saying that he will not, will not help to stand in the way -- here it is, moments ago, ron desantis tweeted an attack on d.a. alvin bragg accusing him of weaponizing the legal system, he also said, quote, florida will not assist in an extradition request given the questionable circumstances at issue with this soros-backed manhattan prosecutor and his political

agenda that's a strange statement do you want to comment on that that is an odd statement from a governor, no that's an odd statement. >> i think i would make two comments about it. one, it's hard to call it a dog whistle. it's anti-semitism in that statement, and a governor should be respecting the rule of law. one of the things, and i don't mean to be preachy, but i think on a night like tonight where it's so historic, it does warrant stepping back and noting that many people in this country during the trump administration saw the rule of law by donald trump, by attorney general barr, and by a host of people in congress and others be trampled on the corruption use of pardons, the firing of jim comey, the obstruction of cases in the department of justice for

friends of the president, the documented obstruction of justice by the then-president that was documented by robert mueller in the team that i was a part of. and all of that was so anathema to what many people viewed america stood for, which is the rule of law and something that we thought we were proud of and was a beacon for the rest of the world. and so for today, seeing alvin bragg, you know, and i think it's notable, an african american d.a., has the tenacity, putting up with these kinds of attacks and just keeping his head down is, i think, a sign this country is on track, that

people actually respect the rule of law and are willing to do their duty even in the face of smear campaigns and worse, including death threats. and it is worth noting that we owe a debt to people in those public positions who really are sacrificing quite a lot that they didn't sign up for to uphold the rule of law in this country. it's a shame we have gotten to this place, when other countries are ones we ask to emulate and fortunately we're in a position where now emulating other countries that have held senior political leaders to account, but i do think this is an important step in the right direction. >> it's also a statement without

dignity. the governor of florida does not know the facts so he cannot talk about questionable facts in the case he doesn't know them only the grand jury knows them he's making a statement about something he doesn't know the answer to and throwing out, as you said, andrew, dog whistles h historically, this meme, this idea among the right that african americans, that black folks who are in positions are controlled by some jewish overseer who is pulling their strings, that's what that statement reads like perhaps this governor should maybe read a history book because he might not understand what he's channeling but he's channeling an era in american history that is one of the most ugly, that he's probably not allowing to be taught in school, but that idea that this prosecutor, and by the way, not just this prosecutor, an andrew, and i'll let you have a final word on it, it was a grand jury that looked at facts, that looked at evidence, and this

grand jury took a vote, which is part of our system and so for the governor of one of our largest states and most important states to throw out a miasma of words that are meant to trigger the far right for his political ambitions, that really do sound like that old meme that this black prosecutor must be under the secret control of this, you know, murky jewish millionaire, that could be 1950, and it is not dignified. it's beneath the dignity of a governor >> absolutely. look, let's get real this country has a history and one that is not just something that goes back to the 18th and 19th century or even the 20th century that exists currently of racism and anti-semitism and that is clearly intentionally what is being invoked here i think a much better thing to

have said, which would have been consonant with the rule of law, is that donald trump, and this i truly think people need to remember this, is presumed innocent under the law unless and until a jury finds that he is guilty of the charges that we will see and that a jury finds that beyond a reasonable doubt, and people need to wait and trust that system. >> indeed, he's neither above nor below the law. he's a citizen like every other citizen. andrew weissmann, always a pleasure thank you. let's bring in nbc news presidential historian michael beschloss. always handy to have a historian around in moments like this. i would love for you to comment on that as well. michael, i think all of us who are sort of absorbing this, there's nothing to be gleeful about, about a former president, whatever his quality being indicted, there's nothing to be happy about, about that. however, it is in some ways a

great ratification of our notion of a citizen president and i just would love to get your take on a governor throwing aside the dignity of his own office to put out that blizzard of words that had soros and making it sound as if alvin bragg is under soros' control and saying murky facts when he doesn't know the facts it's a kind of shocking when i think everyone is sort of trying to make sure that this whole thing is dignified, even dignified for donald trump >> the governor of florida, as you know, went to harvard law school he knows exactly what he's doing. he knows he's defied federal power in a way that really harkens back to george wallace in june of 1963. when wallace in tuscaloosa stood in a school house door, university of alabama, and said although the supreme court says that the university of alabama has to be integrated with two

black students, i am going to represent state power and defy that that's what desantis is trying to do. fortunately -- >> yeah. >> i'm sorry, go ahead, joy. >> no, you, please >> i was going to say, just to echo what you have said, this is an historic night, and i think as a result of what's happened, desantis is going to be a side show, but the important thing is that tomorrow, i think in terms of american history, we will be waking up in a different country. before tonight, presidents in this country were kings. they did all sorts of things richard nixon as president probably obstructed justice, did all sorts of other things for which certain of his entourage was sent to jail, but nixon was the unindicted coconspirator so called because the justice department in my view wrongly ruled that a sitting president cannot be indicted once nixon quit, the special

prosecutor said, well, perhaps now it's time to indict him. he's a former president, and for a month, he seemed in jeopardy gerald ford, the new president after a month, as you well know, said we're going to pardon mr. nixon. and in 1995, i actually talked to gerald ford and said, why didn't you at least wait until nixon went through the process and was at least fingerprinted so you could show someone who steals a can of hairspray in a store that there's equal justice in this country? and what ford said was, i don't think the american people have the stomach for a former president being indicted and going through a trial and going to jail. i didn't want the country to be distracted he also said that i had heard that mr. nixon's health was bad, there were even rumors he was so depressed he might take his own life, so it was punishment enough for nixon to have to accept a pardon. my view would be, and i feel

more strongly about it than i did even on that day, that if you want presidents not to behave lawlessly, they have to expect that if they do the kind of things that donald trump we now see has just been indicted for, before he was president, some of the things he may be indicted for as president, and some of the things he may be indicted for after being president, trump knew nixon very well trump believed that nixon's biggest punishment was he goes to his seaside mansion in california, lives happily ever after. if he had seen nixon fingerprinted or even going through a trial or go to prison, i think he would not have seen a possible crime spree we're hearing about over the last seven years. >> and i mean, by the way, we should note that spiro agnew wound up getting indicted, the attorney general at that time, wound up getting indicted. i believe serving time it's not unprecedented, and i

think that -- you think about ronald reagan, waging this illegal war with the contras and having that high level, very risky investigation of him, it seemed to embolden presidents that nixon was able to get away with crimes. >> totally >> donald trump -- >> can i say something on reagan >> please. yes. >> i hate to pull these historical figures out of my hat, but i once talked to howard baker who was reagan's chief of staff at the time. sorry to sound like someone who is 900 years old, but i did. i said to howard baker, you know, given the things that reagan did in iran contra and there were big investigations and people were taken to the and howard baker said, i spoke to democratic leaders in the congress. ñ■i'm quoting baker.

q■and weü$■dedñr■ that the couny could not go through anothert■o■ nixon experience, where you are inx■ danger of a president being impeached and possibly sent to prison. so, we just agreeqamong ourselves that this would never go that far. this is what i mean by, we are waking up in a different country tomorrow. i■that must never happen again. the president has to be bound by the same laws as the rest of us. t■and if you do not like what we saw from donald trump, in the lastt■t■ seven 9"■rs, that's the only way it'sr i■>> indeed,j■ a man. and you are younger than springtime, michael beschloss, and full of such gr#!2■ information. >> thank you, thank you. q■we always love havingqyou on, michael beschloss, asokfá alway. let's bring backx■ barbara mcquade and charles coleman. joining me now are jason johnson, professor of politics and journalism at morgan state university, and hugo lowell, political investigations reporter for the guardian. hugo, what have you got on the

reactions toñ■oçç■ all of this e trump world? t■>> look, you know,i■ trump was very muted about this when hise■ advisor spoke to him t■qf the indictmentq■ broke. at least for hisq■ political, team -- e■f■past ourr found out about the news f]? u. they saw the opera alert hitq■ their phones and they -- to figur%hm■tqwhat next steps would be, at least on the politicalfá front. and from the political front, they seem to be focused ont■ a fund ratór'■ claim. this has alwayse1 beene■ the trp cambakgn's go to, if you can't beat the news cycle, then try and make money off your supporters. so, this a&■f■t■ exactly what ty are trying to do. but trump, for all his pro votto, hasl■ been very muted. he has not beenv0%rticularly happy about his indictment and he's fearful,qó■(■d■about how hs going tof■ be perceived in history. and now that he's actually criminally charged, the first

former president -- the first sitting president to beq■ charged,■"■á'qakes this passing lee, and it's quite a knock to h.■em a> you know, ando■q■ jason -- it is not unprecedented in the world forjf a president to be indicted. the current leader of israel is literally under indictment right now, and tried to seize control of the cour[d■system in order tot■ protect himself. south korea has indicted its former president. italyñi■has a president that faced indictment. you could go on, right? there are other countries where this has happened. it's just unprecedented here. and i wondere■ if you, as■k als- as a political scientist,5a■ ca■ amn idea of the presidency as sort of the king. because we havelp treatedt( j■u, functionally, even if they are not on paper. q■ñ■u■u■know, soccer, universal healtht■ care, arresting a form1 president who tries tot■ take

over your country -- thanks to see america catching up, right? x■we're finally getting the idea in our heads that these people are not kings, as youi] suggest, and should be held accountable. and iñr■have to say this, joy reid, not just as an academic, not just as a professor, not just as ant■rappy. i am legitimately happy. because i think that the fact that donald trump has not been held accountable in any significant way thus far was a e■ this country. e■ this country. it emjt r'ge have heard . if it emboldens people like jim jordan. it emboldens people like marjorie taylor greene. it emboldens any of thee1 other people out there right now, this exact point, who are planning some sort of resistance, because he's actually been indicted. actually been indicted. it is a good sigz■pá we have a president who is actually being held accountable for these things. 3$■■and i think, for all tooñ■ ■ americans, either through pop culture or television, or movies, or writing, orf■ just or our presidentsi■ werealwayse1lpt untouchable. we always thought, okay,

nothing is ex%.■ going to happe■ to him for this thing, nothing is ever going to hold himxd accountable, so it's good that we are at a momená6■here he's actually being held u((q will former president trump go to jail for this particular case? it's highly unlikely. it's highly unlikely. but it does,x■ as many people have mentioned before -- it breaks the seal. it makes it clear for anybody else who runs for this office, it makes itxd■clear to anyç■ otr lawyer inçó■any other district around the country, whether it isr georgia right now -- i don't have to be the first. ñ■3■his guy is not infallible. this guy is notfá invincible. and we are finally going to hold hime■ accountable. that is a great moment in american history and all of us should be happy that the system is semi working the way it shoulde■f■ be. >> yeah, it did seem that something was fundamentally broken, when it came ep■, we seem to have thisf■ impunity, -- for one moment,t(■jason johnson -- there is some sort of historical carmack5■■■á karmic irony. -- he had a two thirds chance of

it being anr american prosecutor who would try him for crimes, between fani willis and alvin bragg y■ a timex■ when there is this sort of warq■ against the historical3 presidents of african americans. thexd■downside of that, ofw■ co, is thatñr■now we know the playbook and how it will look at how ugly it will get. -- that's in questionw■ to charles, then. we lost jason. l■so, charles, i'm going to thrw that same question to you. use there is an irony, isn't it? that there is this particular t. and it was a two out of three shot, which of these prosecutors would get to the finishi■ line first in their cae and make the decisione1e1 or a grand jury, i should say, make a decision -- what do you make of it being an ica, particularly, asx■ ugly as weca, know that will become? >> i think that is the very different and very unique irony( of what america is. i '■jnk that when you look at the country and you look at its history, it has always been us that has done the difficult

labor and had to answer the difficult questions. and this is no exception. it's also no exception and no surprise that whate■ we have sen from donald trump and it's camp and others like him is doubling down on thexd■rhetoric that has seeped in white nationalism, so that they dox■ not believe that people like fani willis, nor alvin bragg, it should beqin positions to have a say so over1 things that affect them. ande1 so they are going tow■ atk theml■ vehemently. they are going tofá attack them includesl■ words like monsters,/ which is dehumanizing,t■ it's -- toq■ separate them fromt(■his o3 humanity. j■ñ■-- and so everything that is takinge■ place h%jds a very american. and this is a new chapter in terms of what we have seen. but the elements that are involved, in terms of people u■(áqaving the courage, and affordingñi■to do what is right, even though they have been marginalized and come fromq■ marginalized places -- this is a veryi■ american story1 in terms of turning people accountable to oure■ justice system. this is what is supposed to happen. tgáxd■d■> indeed.

what'st■ not supposed to happen though, barbara mcquade, is that we should fearfá violence s a result of thee1 prosecution of an ordinary citizen. but that's what donald trump is right now. presidential candidate, yes. but he's just an ordinary citizen. how concerned are you fort(■this prosecutor, for his family,t(■ad for theñr■country, given what we k the past and what he'sç■t■ capae of doing with his supporters? >> i am concerned, j. i'm concerne÷■)■=u"■á■i■q■ thins that donald trump hasqalready said. as you saw onfá january 6th, as we saw after the search on mar-a-lago,t(■in cincinnati, listen to his words about the fbi,ñ■x■ and then went to an fbi office with an assault rifle, ended up being killed in a standoff later that day. i have to imagine there is someone out thereok who is unhinged, who is going to hear about this, and is going to own hands andi] engage ininto h' vigilante violence. ir behavior has set us up for that. i know that around the country lawn forsman is preparingr this moment. x■but all it takes is one --

law enforcement has to beñi■rigt 100% of the time. someone who has a terrorist oe( violent extremist only has to be right once. >>f■ last question toe1 you, e■does this indictment, in any way, influence thel■ other prosecutors? r■t r'to thef■ right and say, w, this is happening, does this impact what i'm doing? so, i'm talking about faniq■ willis and, obviously, jack smith. >> no, i don't think so. i think that if youe1ñr■are worg togethere■ on a coordinated investigation, you might. but these -- so, i don't think. so i think alvin bragg brought this case when he was ready. and i think funny will send q■(■(■same in their cases. >> in their cases -- and, last question i guess, to you, charles coleman, do you think it is likely -- jason johnson said he thinks it'sx■ unlikely that ir actually go to jail on these counts. michaelqcohen did. 5■■■ó■t was a federal caw;k know is different. e■but this is a case that sent

his formeri■ lawyert(■ó■to jail. >> i don't know that -- see him go to jail. i think that it's important to understand -- and i hate to put it down on anyone who is looking at this. we are a long way from the conclusion of even this chapter of thef■x■ story. r■(■yes. >> there's a lot that is going to happen and people need to just stay uime to be alive. great job ine■ that hour that yu guys had to pull togetherqquite quickly. i was saying, today was the first day that we made a rundown for our show, where we were off indictment watch

footing. we were just, like -- we