reaves everybody wants to attack michaelñi■cohen's credibility? attorney general tish james credited me for the investigation. now, you know what, all of the ì(■% disinf disinformation, mal-information that they are throwingo■ against me will prove what i had provided was rel will he vernt5■ to this investigation and significant in the decision to ultimately hold the former president account ablg.e1e1t(■b■

i wanted to put out my first book, "disloyal," from the very beginning when we see people like jeffrey berman foolishly acknowledging he wase■ being pressured by maine justice to do what to go after michael cohen. you'll find as i've said a thousand times, there was no tax evasion. i've never been audited in my life, e■right? and there was no heloc violation. that's nonsense. i didn't takee1 out the heloc f i had the e■f■heloc on properti for almost 20 years. so, look, a lot of the things that they get clip bates on and the attacks on me,e■ it reallyf

dreaming it was really hard for me to stayx■ focused and willing to participate in this. 23 times i have met with the district attorney's office all i can say is this is an important day for america and it's a very important day for the department of -- you know, for justice and also for accountability. >> w3■ichael,t(■don't go anywhe. it is just after 6 gí■y■in the east we are encroaching into ari melber's hour.ñ■ ari, i want to bring youy■ in. we were covering the breaking news with andrew weissman, michael x■cohen. the new york grand jury hase1 voted to indict donald j. trump. >> we're hearing breaking news

ife@pr(rpq&■can hear me,e■ i gus the question i would throw into thefá mix is, michael, whatqdo u think donald trump is going to face when he goes through the booking procesk■ for it >> thee■ answer to that -- hey, how are you, ari look,jf i've been on your show a couple dozen times talking about this i always believed this day was going to come.e■ i also predicted alvinle bragg would be the first all of these again talking heads that want to tell you that this case is the weakest of them all, why are we comparing one versu the other? accountability isn't supposed to you think january 6th is more relevant than campaign finance ráu■ o■e looking at i believe thate■ donald right n is petrified this ise1 one of his biggest

fears, that he would be called out for who an> for those joining us, michael cohen, who has been called a key or star witness in this case is on the line. we'llñi■hear about 6 p.m. easte. this is the beat with ari m melber donald trump has been indicted under seal by the new york grand jury his lawyers have been notified of this. michael, we're just on this. if you can still hear me, thexd■ other question i have before we let you go is what do you think now that this indictment exists under seal, whatr

the strength of the evidence and what the "times" reports is ae1 felony indictment that relates at least in parto■ to some of t materials and eviden provided what's the strength of the evidence now >> well, i'm going toçó■stay consistent with my comments when i was again with youi■ on your show the documents speak for themselves, and the documents are nott(■beneficial to donald trump, plain and simple. åt■ey are factualre25 ire a tru% accounting of everything that transpired which, again, is one of the reasons it'sqbeen so emotionally disheartening when your credibility is constantly under be attack. and people refuse to finish the sentence what i did i did at the direction of, for the benefit of and in cooperation with donald

j. trump and so i ended up being forced to plead guilty. i was charged. i was fined. i was ultimately sentenced to severalnb■q■ of these thungs th, y you know, they're ultimately looking at for donald. what's good for one is good for all. at the end of the day there's only one system. not two. everybody is supposed to be treated equally in the eyes of the law. >> yeah. no, and as you remind us, because you've spoken out publicly, you'veç■ participateds a cooperating witness here and you've spoken out here tonight as the news breaks, michael, this is a question whether the law will be applied. many said it wouldn't come it certainly came in new york because of yourfá testimony and the materials and information you provided which is part of history. i want to thank michael cohen who joined my colleague nicole and helped us kick off this episode ofl■ "the beat."

nicole wallace is still with us i believe. >> i am. >> hi. this is one of those times where you say, okay, it may have taken longer than people fáthought it may have come about differently than people thought. we follow the facts, we don't always createt(■them, and yet i curious what you this( reflecting onok this fact that t first reported it, nbc has it confirmed and all trump's lawyers aren't denying it. donald trump, the former president, has been notified he has been dieted in new york. the next step in the legal process will be his booking like any other human being, like any other person under the rule of law, to go through that and then be tried, tried by a jury of his peers. what do you think got to this point? >> you know, i have two thoughts you know, one with trump there's always theñ■ threat of his own expression, human carnage. when you listen to michael

cohen, he didn't have sex from stormy daniels, his campaign didn't benefit from silencing her but he went to jail. this is alsox■story about you can't tell a story about donald trump and the law without there being a chapter on his ownq■ justice department fdny under trump, under barr investigated this chapter and these acts and found that, quote, donald trump directed an■ coordinated a hush money scheme. so i am waiting to see what happened to the same evidence that alvin braggi■ marshalledi]n front of the new york grand jury years before and they call ■i■%9 bragg, they interviewedñr■the se witnesses and came to the same e conclusion because this is a state crime, you know this better than me probably, they're looking a the the coverup of the actions and directing and coordinating a hush money scheme. that's even x■worse. that extends into the oval office where he was writing hush u■fh

michael cohen who rudy giuliani told us was a, quote, pass through. because it's donald trump, there are human beings disposable to donald trump dti u$ere's always a bar story angle. there's alwayse■ an open questi about merrick garland and what happened with these federal cases. >> as you said, and michael eluded to it.q when they say don't make a federal case out of it, there is a very serious open federal case about the insurrectione■ in the ■■k there is a sedition. whether the tentacles reach out to donald trump's white house. as of right now, no one who worked for him directly or hexd■ has been charged and held accountable for o■that. >> yeah, but if you and i -- >> go ahead. >> if you and i did all three of

these things, a■z+á■ and i silenced a porn star to benefit our presidential campaign,e■ if you and i 5■■■ncited a deadly insurrection and if you and i took classified documentse1 to mar-a-lago, weç■ would be criminally5■■■exposed in all th■ jurisdictions, state and federal. it's only in conversations about donald trump that people are like, wow, let's go with the best one frankly, that analysis has shifted, too until classified documents were found in pence's home and the bidenu library, people thought that was the strongest i'm5t■z■lawyer if you prosecute him you should prosecute an ex-president. >> march 30th here is the first day of the rest of donald trump's life in a sens5zx■■the first day in e rest of this political era we have been living through the sealç■ is f■broken it shows he can be charged

he is legallye1 entitled to the presumption of innocence presumption of innocence it i3■q■rule of law ande1 wef■ e trying to have -- upholding civilized court process,x■ even for people who wound give him that i think tomorrow and the days ahead are going to be very difficult. lawyers call it prudential that just means not legal. the otherlp considerations no other prosecutor will have to ask about thefá first indictment of a]-:■ president. >> that'sfá a good answer. the novelty is gone, which is just amazing in and of itself. >> yeah. so it's a novel night here in america. thanks for staying on a little farther into our hour.ñ■ i appreciate you, nicole. >> thank you, ari. have a great show. >> appreciate it. i am ari melber. this is a special edition of "the beat with ari melz.

donald trump indicted by a grand jury in new york.qm(p■h(lc that indictment is under seal. they have been notified he has been dieted. the process plays out here there should normally bee■ if y have a cooperativeñ■ process a meeting and schedule to be booked this is the first time a grand jury or any prosecutorial process has indicted a former i want to bring in the first of what we have lined up to be several rounds of experts for you in our special coverage. former fez ral prosecutor,l■ joe vance. maya wylie and former watergate prosecutor, nick ñr■ckerman. the you have said this was legally supported. what do you think now that it i■

happ happening,s this is not a novel event, if we had done this with richard nixon and he hadn't been pardo■g■, this would not be the business event it is just like michael cohen said, there are 36 people that wound up being convicted of crimes richard nixon was pardoned, he was let go, he wasn't held accountable, not to the standard donald trump is beingt(■1 held accountable to today i think this is very important establishing a principle, a line in the sand that if you commit a crime you can't shoot somebody and commit aç■ crime and not de with thee■ consequences. i think that is an extremely

important principle that we're putting in effect with donald trump who has a whole series of crimes that are ultimately going to be brought to justice >> yeah. fk" maya >> yes, i did. i thought this day would come, and i just want to say to begin with, ari, is -- you and i and joyce and nick, we have beeni■ watching this unfold for years now together and i just want to underscore nick's point this should not be theo■ first president to be indicted, butu i is important ande■w■ sobering tt we have somebody who has5 highest office of this country who has now been indicted for his5a■ behavior, his acts in orr

to5■■■a■ win thatqoffice but wh faces more shoes that will drop, i believe, in the form of indictments for multiple different formsnb■ of criminal s■g■tivity and i just want to say that because it is5a■ a sobering mgmt for this country that we are witnessing this happen to someone who was entrusted with such pow jeer and who has now ha jury of his peers, because that is what ae1 grand jury is, say believe yout(■have to face the music.ñ■ you're rightzgv■we don't know wt the outcome will be, but i will tell you this. i also deeply believe based on the evidence weg+■ seen in the public record that this is the first shoe to drop and more shoes are coming >> yeah. you mentioned this beinge■ --

there is a context fore■ this because there are these open probes whether people like it or not, there are many people in the sort of legal community who did question whether it was a good idea to go down thise■ road or o should go first. they don't have to be correct.e■ clearly thisl■e■ grand jury and d.a. don't feel that way e■ue multi-year conversation. e■ue what maya and nicole and i discussed tonight is the obvious context of this indictmente■ of t■ open for potential indictment in it two other probes. most public officials, mostxd■ presidents aren't in that situation to begin with. joyce, how much much is the fact that never again will anyone talk aboutt■t because now we have as aç■ nati gone forward and held a former law. if if he's ablefá to beat the ce

and win the x■trial, sot(■be itt he's certainly notl■ above being charged. >> it is certainly a rule of law sort of a moment for the country, and a moment where we would do well tox■ seriously assess who we are not as americans. we are all so familiar with donald trump's practice, with his belief thatok he's above the law, with his admonition to people that they should note1 respect the law when it's his own personal fortunes that are at stake this is a man who never hesitated to call and lead chance to lock her up, to lock hillary up that is not who we are in this country, and i hope that this becomes a momente■ where we rejt that, where we remember that donald trump, like any other defendant, is innocent until he's proven g■ç and if, quite frankly,e■ maya points out, it is a big step

from dooindictment to conviction we've seen the evidence that has been publiclyçó■available. i think people will have strong views■3■i■whether ae1 presidentl do it. making sure no one, not even a former president, is above the law. my hope for the country in this moment is that we can do that in a way that affirms american values,xd■affirms american pri(kr(■es comes to an end, we will bew3■able to move forward,e a proudxd■american where people receive due process of law, where the law holds even the q famous, even the powerful accountable and we can, again, appreciate who we are. >> i think that really speaks to prepare for nights like this in the news

they happençó■where they e1happ. we're allçó■observing thisw■ alg with everybody elsei] in the country and these arei] moments where you're watching it, there will be a o■áájtt■áy there will be a booking of the for former president 3■case, that's one y he could have to report to prison and they'll figure out the significance of that the heñ■ still has legally afforded protects but in other ways they're still a citizen nick, what do we think we're going to see in thatu■■■i■proce? eye what do you see as likely in the counts we have the grand jury voting to indict and we have multiple sour confirming that. the indictment is under seal from the "times" reporting he's

the first formal president to obtain charges ñ■u >> we don't know what the in accordancev >> that is when donald trump will have to appear before a judge in manhattan in criminal court and have to pleadi] guilty or not guilty. at that point he will have the indictment read to him situation where there is an arrangement and>4■q■ da's office where they provide himfá that indictment and at th point it may become public, but we really don't know what it is. there's been lots of speculation that clearly the incident involving the hush payments to stormy daniels are part of this

case, but we also knowt■ there s q%■■ation done by the new york attorney general's office, that when donald trump went in to be questioned about that in the deposition, he asserted his fifth amendment 450 times, which means there aree1 some 450 crim that he was questioned abouti■i■ i've got to believe some of those could end up in x■this. >> nick, while you're giving us the legal analysis i want be tot■ give you theñi■ analysis we have this is donald n&o■■rump's plan mar-a-lago we also have cameras and eyes on trumpçó■ó■tower and trump areas. the former president did infamously predict his ownt■ arrest he was inaccurate about the date he clearly didn't know or made up that previous tuesday, butxd■

proved to be in line with the fact that he was eventually going to bejf w■charged. i also inqclarity here want to makeñ■ suree1 we're reporting o the trump side trump's attorneys tonight, i eluded to this before, i want to read this.e■ their statement tonight now, 6:20 p.m. on the east coast, the attorneys say, quote, president trump has been indicted. he did not commit any crime. we will still vigorously fight court, end quote maya, as someone who's followed both cases, the law but alsoo■ l of theo■e■ politicale■ energy oe outside of it. what do you think of the way trump's side has continued to play this out?e■ while he has been, as i mention, been inaccurate and attacked th■ d.a., tonight his lawyers are

simply saying, yes, donald trump has been indicted. > indicted and that means the only thing they can say right now or should say right now is what they are will be. he will plead innocent and nick is absolutely right, we don't know what the charges are, but i'll tellok you what we do know, there is no district attorney, including alvin bragg who is bringing the first indictmente1 ever against a former u.s. felony. that matters and that means it will be a lot more xd■ilence >>w■ i have to ask ash for ç prayers. i don't think it's going to be tooqlong before we hear donald trump be cool.

we know because of wh9t■ he'st(■ done in the mast that his adherence,e■ his followers shou get loud, active i hope he does not do this, but possibly i]dangerous this is a time in this■nú■count leth process play out everyoneo■ deserves a defense. everyone deserves due process. all of us should take a very, very, very deep breath andñ■ recognize the solemnness of this moment and hope thenb■ former president starts to act of a citizens p and take the process seriously. >> maya, it's a solemn time ñ■ issues.r

illinoisñ■ has hade■ two governs incarcerated one democrat, one republican who cares what party tv)■ is something people have to take seriously again if we are going to be a nation of laws we have eyes theree■ on the tru plane. my expert guests are with us. if you are joining us, donald trump has been indicted in new york the grand jury has voted the indictment is under seal that means it exists details are note1 yet public that is the standard process '■i. that is not specific to this type of defendant.f■ he's a different type of defendant. moments ago we have a statement from donald trump and in part of our fairness in reporting i want to read part of it joyce, i'd love for you topgt■ e hearing from theç■ defendant,e1 york versus donald trump

he said in part, quote, thefá democrats have lied, cheated in their session to get donald trump. now they've done the çó■nthinkae in indicting a purely innocent person the former president goes on to say before this has never been done before. he was hand picked and funded by sfworge soros,x■ which is a disgrace he's doing ñr■iden'sf■ dirty wo. this is how bragg spends his time in closing, and joyce vance is going to respond to this for us■ 1■ n deneat everye■ lastqone of these sr( office so wet■ can make america great again. joyce, your thoughts on what he is alleging prosecutorial

bias i'me1 curious about what he's n saying.e he's not saying much about the underlying conduct other than a blanket statemente1 of innocencf >> ari, i feel like we're really coming full circles from the early conversations during the trump@t■t■r"ency when allegations surfacedç■i■ about s misconduct when your client has a strong case he pounds that. when your client has a strong case on the law, you pound the laws when your client doesn't have a case, you poundñi■the ç■table. tonight donald trump isw3■poundg the table again. his defense i3■■ a reliance on politics it will only get uglier from this moment on and americans

he so often does will makef■ an effort to manipulate it. the manhattan da's office won't be able to respond because they will try theire■ case where it should be tried, in the courtroom, where they will present evidence and argument to a jury and it will be up to those jurors to stand in for all ofo■ us, for everyone in americ to listen carefully to the evidence and to make a decision there not based on donald trump's empty rhetoric but sit on the evidence. >> yeah, joyce vance givingok us legalr we're in live rolling coverage we haven't taken any breaks. i want to turn to aqspecial guest for this coverage of the indictment announcement. that is andrew weissman. he was general counsel under the mullero■ probe and has also

provided analysis of many of these very same legal issues facing donald trump.ñ■ welcome back, andrew. >> nice to be here on thisx■ historic night. >> it is history we say historic. this is history made for america. you played ao■ key role in an investigation that uncovered many things in the muller probe, indicted, convicted many individuals. for the reasons both!■■■structul and perhaps ephemeral, that did not lead to any greater president trump at the time. do trump now being indicted in new york under be seal today,ht■ andrew >> so the first5a■ is really certainly on a personal level, very much in terms of what you have just said, ari, which is there was substantial evidence of obstruction of justice that was amassed by thet■uller probe

and because donald trump was a sitting president at the time he could not the doj policy this is the first step in terms of criminal a■uxueh■ility. andt(■a■ i think it is reallya testament to the american'c■ criminal justice system andñi■t rule of law that we're seeing. they think the second is very much like what joyce vance said, which is it's very important for people to understandq■ what the rule of law means at this point. it means that donald trump ise1 presumed innocent■p until and unless proven guilty beyond a reasonable doubt byok a unanimo jury, as you know, ari, and that there is nowi■ going to be a substantial amount of time before the trial happensé/■■and that is because of the rule of law. because defendants are afforded, as they should be, substantial rights to makeç■ motions and

prepare discovery and for those who are anxious and think they 1!u■r■qqhat criminal accountability sooner, it's really important to remember that time is part of what the rulee■ç■ of law means. so people do have to be patient and understand that is whate1 it means to approve the rule of law and uphold american values. >> what does ite1 mean to americanse1 that a former this way >> this reminds me very much the conversation that you spearheaded the other night, which is we aree1 joining a numr of countriesç■ñ■ around the glo where people are held to account regardless of whether they are in thex■ highest possible stati, as is the case of israel, orç■

citizen. everyone, if they have broken the law, needs to be held to account. and the fact that donald trump used to be the president doesn't mean that he is immunized from crimes that he committed before he was president, during the time he was president or after the time he was president. it'se■ useful to knowe1 he is ul investigation for crimes during all of those periods and now apparently has been charged for crimes he committed just before he became president and they've■ extended, ase■ nicoleqwallace pointed out. i do think if this is really a truly historic moment and i thinke1 it's an important one in terms of seeing our leaders accountable to all of us they're not special, they're just human beings. if they commit crimes, they should be held to account like anyone else.

we tonight have kings in this country. >> well put. wasw3■curious about that you work withe1 grand jurys and led many complex cases at your time as a prosecutor a grand jury in new york isñi■ different than the federal grand jury you were ñ■overseeing in t muller probe get their evidence and they act. we have an eye on everything we areñ■ dealing with a defenda here who previouslyñi■called for giant protests those didn't come together on the day he predicted we're keepinge1 an eye on stree. here's new from "the new york imee prosecutors in the trump investigation walked into the building where the grand jury was sitting in the minutes

before the panel was expected to speak. one of them had penaonnect wiseman. what does thisi@yound to you lik has occurred here? that the da's offia this probe open forw3■a while.qr we know from accounts and leaks■ about whether to bring charges,

what do you see here based on what we've learned about the grand jury that has voted toñ■ indict donald q■trump? >> i think there's a certain amount we know and a certain do very curious about we've heard he's been indicted on qelonies. tha÷n0 very important that there is a clearw■ misdemeanor, it's unclear what thee■ felony is and what the theoryt(■is of theçó■ distriu>ñ■attorney's office for how they got thec■ misdemeanor be what they callfáqbumped up a that will be discussion, legalw■ analysis alp lot ofñ■ nerdy legalç■ anal. the other thing, allen

weisselberg has pled guilty.e■ he is currently in reikers,u a very tough prison in new york and there has been aq■ lot of discussion in the last 24 hours that he nox■ longer has very eminent criminal lawyers and it has led to a lot of speculation as to whether he also will beñi■ charged orq■q■ whether he has flipped, whether he is actually a cooperating witness and that that isñr■an additional piece of knowledge in the arsenal that alvin bragg has. that's something we're going to learn a lot abvó+■in the next 24 hours. >> do you thinke1 the now convictionñ■ of the trump organe is related to this new indictment about donald trump or

trying to strengthen the case they're trying to x■bring. we've heard a lot about the narrow fact pattern. thenl■ you haveie■ the separater taste. he said this isñr■but oneqchapt andxd■d■i'ma5■ curious if you t with these lingsx■ it's larger than a hush money case >> we don't know if it isxd■dmu■ concrete way this is a larger financial fraud, whether that's going to be doing investigation onet(■ó■way is that in you're tg to flip allen weisselberg, he wa she is in jail and if you can bring5a■ additional charges,ç■ s

note1 only doing time now, but he's thinking whenly ever seee1 the light of day he is an old man although in my advanced years he starts to seem younger andokó[■ younger is i barely got a laugh from you,i■ ari >> i smiled, i jfdid >> yeah. k t toxd■p that prior case that case was a relatively tough case that was proved on paper and by hostile ñi■itnesses so there was a very good paper record but there were a lot of hostile witnesses who were aligned with donald trump. the d.a.'s office managed to pull that out seemingly quitefá handily. i could see that having an effect on the prosecutors thinking, we can do this, that

this is a wayr this when you have a good paper record and hostile witnesses that jurors are sophisticated and they can deep root, for instance, mr. mcconaughey who was a hostile witness an i'm sure we'll be seeing a lot of you in the days ahead >> good to see you >> absolutely. you're watching msnbc special coverage, which continues right

now, as we track the historic indictment of donald trump, the former president indicted up seal in new york by a grand jury vote news that broke and up ended and changed everything today it was first reported by "the new york times." nbc news has confirmed it, and donald trump's lawyers have publicly confirmed it. the former president is reacting to the indictment and attacking the d.a. what i'm telling you to be clear is, there is no dispute here, there is no debate this is the established news that we didn't have two hours ago or two days ago or weeks ago when donald trump was predicting his arrest and his charges it is now a fact donald trump indicted in new york, on a felony indictment according to "the new york times," as i have cautioned in our coverage tonight we do not know the charges so we don't have, because it hasn't been lifted from seal yet, what the exact charges are. as a legal process, we will cover this in the spirit of american law, like we cover every other case, with both

sides presented and the legal matter, the defendant is presumed innocent. as a procedural or news matter, this will make time as these cases do but we cannot go backwards march 30th is a marker donald trump indicted, a former president indicted this long-time, unprecedented event has become a reality i have our guests standing by. and i want to read an update from stormin' y daniels' attorni place a great deal of respect and confidence in the hard work of grand jurors. that's from stormy daniels' current attorney we have donald trump, jr., as we have some updates here, speaking out. let's listen to that

we don't have that do we have the d.a.? let me bring back in -- we were going to play a clip, but we don't have it. let me bring back in our expert guests, who have been a part of our coverage here of the trump indictment we are naturally juggling. but i just went through some of the updates, we talked with mr. weissmann. my understanding is that donald trump, jr., was continuing some of the attacks -- we do have it. we'll play it. >> apparently, you know, soros-backed manhattan district attorney alvin bragg is indicting my father. let's be clear, folks. this is, like communist level [ bleep ]. this is stuff that would make mao, stalin, pol pot, it would make them blush.

>> that's just some of what we are hearing there. donald trump, jr., and the talking points, nick, come from his father as well, which is an attempt to sort of turn this around on the d.a. i'm curious, your reaction to that as in the days ahead as we will see a legal process that affords donald trump as a defendant his rights but prepares him for trial if this goes forward but a public and political process that tries to put the d.a. on trial. >> any kind of attempt to put the d.a. on trial here is actually absurd. the idea that this is political -- how do they explain that michael cohen already served one year for the exact same crime i'm sure one of which has been charged against donald trump how do they explain that he was charged during a time that donald trump was president, probably for the -- on the same exact facts for which donald

trump is now being charged so to suddenly say this is political, that this is like communism is completely off the rails, and off the charts. the idea that soros has anything to do with this, has even met alvin bragg or has any connection to this whatsoever is also totally false there is no proof for that, just like there's no proof that donald trump won the election. what we're going to get are a lot of lies, misstatements, and political nonsense from the trumps i think we heard the first of it today, and it's not going to be the last the fact of the matter is, this case is going to be decided if a court of law, based on evidence, based on witnesses, on documents, a tape recording between michaey michael cohen a

donald trump there is a lot of evidence just on the one crime that we are aware of, that was probably charged today in that indictment so any idea that you bring in pol pot and god knows who else, mao is dead, i'm sure they're going to raise that again. they did use the former dictator of venezuela in the election as somebody who is behind the rigged election. i'm sure we're going to hear a lot more of that nonsense, as this case proceeds and as the other indictments come down. >> joy >> so i think there's a lot of wisdom that we're hearing tonight. of course, the most importanted a mow a-- importante ething is e don't know specifically what the charges are. it will be important for us in the days ahead to commit ourselves to studying the

charges and to thinking about them in a thoughtful way, while remembering that prosecutors will try their case in a courtroom, while donald trump and members of his family will be trying their case on the courthouse steps it's possible there might come a point where a judge is assigned, will be outraged by the ongoing commentary and will perhaps make some effort to enter a gag order. but i think the judge will be very lenient here and will be hearing from a lot of the commentary from the former president's friends and supporters there are former issues involved how judges don't like to impose gag orders, but it's a double edged sword for donald trump down the road, he's going to be arguing that prosecutors inflamed the jury, that prosecutors prejudiced the jury so that he couldn't get a fair trial in manhattan of course, the more of this commentary that we hear from trump and from his grown adult children, the more that argument

is blunted, because he's putting out the public commentary. >> right that makes a lot of sense. i want to thank joyce and nick for being such a big part of the coverage on this historic night. maya is coming back. i have two other special guests coming up. thanks to this ensemble right here as we reset here about 45 past the hour on the east coast, this is a historic day in america, march 30th, 2023, is a day that a former president was indicted for the first time, donald trump indicted in new york by a vote of the grand jury on felony charges. "the new york times" broke it, trump's lawyers and trump responding to it so get ready strap on your legal seat belt. we are going forward as a country that is going to deal with this and put a president on trial. those grand jurors and the new york d.a. making the judgment the evidence is there and that this is the better course. we have been having this debate

in many forms for many years of the trump era. and now today, tonight, it changes. we go from the hypothetical to the actual i got some special guests standing by as part of our special coverage you may take a step back and go, okay, donald trump got indicted today, wow and if you follow the law, and you are a fair person, donald trump is still legally presumed innocent if they convict him in trial, donald trump will be a legal convict, a felon in this felony case and he would then go and have to serve whatever sentence he is given. and donald trump could literally be incarcerated instead of running for president. that is a big deal i don't say that as rooting for one side or the other, because, again, the legal process will play out but everyone can see the obvious stakes here. it is a huge deal. this is not where it seems like we were headed a few months ago. we live in a world where people say i saw that coming.

back in december, for example, mr. weisselberg, he mentioned earlier that donald trump wasn't charged anything so in december, it looked like trump was getting away again the manhattan d.a. who indicted donald trump was right here on "the beat" that night, alvin bragg. this is what he told us. >> the work never stops, and we're going to continue to do that, and there may be -- i don't know, i don't want to get ahead of the facts, but there may be other moments when we pour it out publicly i've committed to doing that when we reach a conclusion >> with regard to mr. trump? >> with regard to mr. trump.

>> that was the d.a. saying that the investigation was ongoing and they would charge trump or update that they were charging him. it's really striking to take stock on the night that donald trump's indictment has broken. it didn't look like a lot that he was going forward to a trump indictment we heard from a veteran who clashed with mr. bragg who alleged they weren't going to indict trump what we can see now is that this process did continue, it did gather more facts and criminal evidence against donald trump. that the d.a. really was leaning towards this, and they got a grand jury to agree there was enough criminal evidence to charge donald trump. that's why today looks very different from december for those convictions, and certainly where it seemed like donald trump was going to continue to skate. i want to bring in to our

special coverage tonight, "new york times" josh marshal and maya wiley josh, you're the first non-lawyer i have had a chance to get to, snok okay i'm curious what you think not on the statutory stuff, we'll get to that, but what does it mean for america that donald trump is now indicted? what does it mean if he continues to as he vows to continue to run for office while fighting these charges, and he could beat them, where do we go from here? because this is new. >> you know, your lawyer guests have spoken to the legal questions. it's a very big deal i think we have anticipated this for a long time. you know, what i really draw from this is, we all collectively have to remember there are a lot of things we

don't know we don't know exactly how this is going to play out, and that's good to remember you know, last week, we had this -- everybody was set for this the nypd was putting up barricades then it didn't happen. i believe it was just yesterday that there were news reports that the grand jury basically was going to be on hiatus for a month. so not only was it not the next day or the day after that, it was, you know, it was a month away i don't know if that was some kind of misdirection or something changed. but we all tend to, you know, collectively, we create stories, fables to fill in the gaps of what we don't know and yesterday, last week, when, you know, everybody was expecting these indictments and then it didn't happen, some people are saying wow, i guess

he was about to get indicted and something changed, or maybe trump scared him off or something like that. you know, that never seemed like that was going to be true. but i think this is a good reminder that there are things going on here that we just don't know, and a lot of even good journalists get wrong what has happened i think you mentioned with weissmann earlier, you know, there have been a number of witnesses who have been brought before the grand jury over the last couple of weeks that we didn't know about. there are these new reports just over the last couple of days that the manhattan d.a.'s office has been sort of applying new pressure to alan weisselberg so it may be that this is just, you know, a trump version of the

stormy daniels hush money case, indicting him for that or it could be more. it could be things that go deeper into his, you know, the trump organization and so forth. so it's a very big day i think we're going to see coming out of this that even though many people say this is, you know, it's not as consequential as january 6th, it's not as consequential as the, you know, conspiracy over the fake electors and stuff like that but i think we're going to see that this indictment changes things a lot more than we anticipated. there are certain things you can't quite get how they're going to land, how it's going to change everything until they happen >> we have emphasized tonight that this is under seal, it could be multiple counts, it

could be one felony. but over the course of this, emily, we have been following something that has had a very binary quality every time he skates, it sort of leaves this echo of well, he's going to get away, and that becomes in some ways, josh mentioned fables, comes up a fable of invincibility that seems to have been pierced today. >> right, and we heard a lot about trump being nervous about being arrested and fingerprinted. there is a certain indignity of being part of the criminal process in this way. if we are in the land of the hush money charges, which we talked about and i'm speculating that there seems to be the most basis that this is what is happening here there is going to be a confidence about whether they are too small, not enough to make it worth it to indict a former president, or whether once you know the facts, then

the d.a. has a clear path to bringing these kinds of charges. i think the key question is going to be whether the district attorney can know that trump was trying to influence the election, and that he knew that's what he was doing when he signed those checks. that seems like the real test here >> right and, again, we have to see what they unseal. josh, we do know that he will be booked his lawyers say they're preparing for that next week so that's a cooperative booking process, which is what you would expect from someone in this situation. i suppose, josh, the political and public question is, how much of that becomes another test and polarized america? you can see him getting booked and say no one is above the law or you can say oh -- what he wants people to say is they should be ashamed that this political prosecution is going forward, josh.

>> yeah. look, we live in divided country. people are going to see things in different ways. one thing i think we should resist, and you can kind of see it in that whole debate that you referenced a few times over the course of, you know, during this hour, you know, should this case go first it's not the biggest of the cases, and is it -- is it big enough to be the first indictment you know, all these kind of second guessing. i think what we should recognize is, in some sense, that has all of us living within donald trump's drama. there is, of course, a prudential element to this, indicting a former president is a big deal you shouldn't do it frivolously or with a marginal case. but in some ways, donald trump, through all of his drama and threats, through saying ah, this

is the day i'm going to get arrested, it has got us all in this mindset of, you know, the rule of law and everything, but is this one big enough should this one come first to hold donald trump accountable, we are collectively responsible for lining up his various crimes in the proper order. but that makes no sense at all, right? you commit crimes, you get indicted, you go to trial. you're presumed innocent and that stuff it is too much to ask, which we have gotten in many cases, asking ourselves, are we -- are we choreographing, again, the order of donald trump's accountability just right? because he'll go on truth social and talk about george soros and talk about burning things down and stuff like that. and at a certain point, i think we need to step back and say, we have a criminal justice system,

and it unfolds the way it unfolds. and that's also part of the rule of law not falling into this man's drama, which in some ways, because he has a knack for this, he's gotten the whole country to do over the last seven years >> yeah. and the principles of interior decorating and decluttering and organizing are not how we organize and follow felony indictments. we're not supposed to any way. it is quite a night. i want to thank josh marshal, emily, and maya wiley, who has been with us for most of the hour thanks to each of us for being part of our breaking coverage here on msnbc. a lot more coming up let me tell folks in the final thought here, as we finish this night together, what we are doing here we are following something that is unprecedented but no more it was unprecedented to indict a former president until today and now it's not

that means that goes off the table. other prosecutors may not have to wrestle with that question. we're dealing with something that is a jurisdictional priority in new york, which means national republican politics have no impact on it. even if a republican takes back the white house, there will be no pardon for donald trump in new york, because this is a local case that may scare him, too. p people like steve bannon and others that got into trouble and got a pardon, there is no pardon here when you look at the other cases, you have the january 6th investigation, which are federal in d.c., and local in georgia, where another local prosecutor could act, because the attempted coup involved alleged crimes in georgia. and you have the classified documents case if none of this seems normal, that's because we have been living through a prolonged sta