can't do that, your girl and your black, you can do that. >> but her third grade teacher told her coleman, nicknamed braved messi, was not a hero. >> i was mad, because my mom she already got the. board >> alex's mother, who works at the fa, pushed back. >> i went into mommy mode and said wait a minute. so i grabbed my phone and i emailed her and she intern said to me, no, she can't do her, she's not a hero. and i was like, i beg to differ. but she said -- >> the teacher suggested more well-known figures like my angela and harriet tubman. when it came time to present, alex was not called on. she >> she cried. she's very upset. >> her mom decided to take her to have a headquarters, where she detailed cohen's life to agency officials, including the deputy administrator. >> i think she was known as queen bests, jesse coleman would walk on the wings of airplanes.

>> alex was also presented with a copy of newly minted coin, commemorating coleman, along with the common barbie dolls. what's the lesson for you? >> not to take no for an answer. there's a big gigantic yes at the end of the road. >> nbc news, washington. >> brave bessie's legacy, to take us off the air, on this friday night. on that note, i wish you a good friday night. i'm in for stephanie ruhle, maybe her son, and you can watch the meaty hassan show, sundays on msnbc. for all of our colleagues across the networks of nbc news, thank you for staying up late. see you this weekend. >> thanks to all of you at home for joining us this hour. tomorrow, president trump is holding what he is billing as the first official rally of his 2024 presidential campaign.

now trump could have picked anywhere in the country for this event, he might've focused on iowa, where the first republican presidential caucus is going to be held. he could've stayed close to home, in florida, and ribbed ron desantis a little bit more. but instead trump chose texas, a state that really doesn't appear to have much strategic significance for his comeback bid. and he didn't choose houston or dallas or austin or any of the highly populated cities the texas has to offer. trump chose the 24th largest city in texas, skipping 23 more logical choices to land on waco. a city of just 140,000 people that is famous nationally for just one thing, a 1990 3:51 day standoff between federal law enforcement and a religious cult that left four federal agents dead and around 80 members of the colts 25 of them

children, yet as well. it was quite literally the biggest gun fight on american soil since the civil war. and because the inciting incidents of that was federal law enforcement attempting to raid the compound because they were illegally stockpiling guns, waco is something of a stuck touchstone for the american far-right. waco is the symbol. the fact that trump is going there is a big deal. as houston chronicle put it, in editorial yesterday, trump is stoking the fires of waco. quote, waco has become an alamo of sorts, a shrine for the proud boys in the three percenters and the oath keepers and other anti government extremists and conspiracists. and 2000 the now very pro trump far-right conspiracy theorist alex jones put out a full length documentary called america, wake up or waco. jones was so obsessed with waco that he actually convince the remaining members of the religious cult to rebuild their church, they won that was destroyed in the siege joan

used his radio show to raise tens of thousands of dollars towards that effort. and 2015, trump's longtime political adviser, roger stone published a book called, the clintons'war on women. stone dedicated that book to the members of the religious cult who died in the waco siege. and specifically blamed hillary clinton for their death. and now, the church that alex jones helped pay to rebuild. that church is now led by this man, he's a pastor like waco's leader, david koresh in the 90s, he preaches about the coming apocalypse. his sermon, has a new star. he believes, donald trump is the anointed of god, and that trump is a battering ram that, god's using to bring down the deep state of babylon. that pastor told the new york times, he's for sure going to trump's rally tomorrow. donald trump is choosing to kick off his presidential campaign in a place that happens to be the center of a lot of violent

symbolism, a place with a bloody history of citizen led uprising against the federal government. and there's more. this is timothy mcvay, a 24 years old mcvay visited waco in 1993. he went while the siege was underway as a show of support for the armed call, and to sell anti government pro gun tee shirts and bumper stickers. you likely know mcveigh is the one the oklahoma city bombers, in 1995 mcveigh's partner carrie nickel, committed the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in u.s. history, blowing up a federal vote in oklahoma city. they killed 168 people, and wounded hundreds of others. before he was executed, mcveigh described his motive by saying, quote, waco started this war. he hoped that oklahoma would handle. okay,

and now in the year 2023, with all of that history, trump's choosing waco as the site of his first campaign rally. the anti-government message here is not subtle. the violent history is not secret. but trump has an extensive history of both downplaying and tacitly encouraging acts of violence. and in 2016 campaign, trump routinely urged his supporters to attack protesters in the crowd. >> knock the crap out of them, would you, seriously. okay, just not that hal, i promise you i will paid for the legal fees, i promise. i promise. >> after violence broke out in a white supremacist rally in charlottesville, virginia, in the first year presidency. trump said this. >> you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. >> in a presidential debate in 2020, trump was asked if he was willing to condemn white supremacists and militia groups, , specifically whether he would call for the proud boys to stand down. instead, trump said this. >> proud boys, stand back,

stand by. >> after the fbi search mar-a-lago last, summer trump used inflammatory rhetoric to demonize that agency. three days later, one of his supporters attacked the fbi cincinnati field office with an nail gun and an ar-15 style rifle. and then of, course there was january 6th, where trump rhetoric and promotion of the big lie let's to violently overtake our nation's capital. rather than condemn that attack, trump and his allies in congress have martyred the attackers. today, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene led a congressional tour, to visit january six defendants in jail. trump himself, as promised to pardon anyone who committed crimes that day if he's reelected. and tomorrow, trump is scheduled to hold his first official 2024 campaign rally in waco. exactly at the same moment as trump. and the rest of the country await has likely

criminal indictment. this is a perilous time for donald trump. he's desperate to regain the presidency, but he could be arrested any day now. so, he's encouraging his followers to become martyrs, and defend him. all week, trump's been attacking prosecutors in all of the various cases, against him. but in particular, he's been focused on manhattan da, alvin bragg, the prosecutor who seems likely to indict him first. trump has called the black prosecutor a soros -- backed animal. and compared his office to the gestapo. he's mocked the idea that his supporters should respond peacefully to an indictment from the da. last, night trump went so far as to say that if he's indicted, he will, quote potential death and destruction would soon follow. tonight, a senior law enforcement official told nbc news, that there's been several hundred threats to alvin bragg's office in recent weeks. a couple dozen threatened

serious harm to bragg himself. and today bragg's office received a letter filled with white powder. that read, alvin, i'm going to kill you. joining us now is chase aberdeen, so moore's -- district attorney, chase, it's good to see. oh i'm sorry, it's under these offices i just want to know. as someone who understands the way -- to be a da, from one da to another, what do you make from the direct targeting of a da by the former president of the united states who has a history of inciting violence? >> thanks for having me, alex. what a way to wind down the week here. >> not lying down, i get. it >> look it's really problematic. it's irresponsible and dangerous and it may well be criminal. i want to emphasize three different points and hopefully we'll have a time to talk about all of them. my wife thinks i get paid by the word but obviously i'm not being paid. the first thing that's important, is that these attacks, personally,

procedurally on folks like alvin bragg are precisely because trump and his republican apologists are trying to distract all of this, the american people from the facts, nobody is defending the conduct that underlies these investigations, no one's denying it. they're trying to do a bag and switch the procedural and personal attacks, second thing that's really important. to pull that off, they're blatantly misrepresenting, as they so often do, the basic realities of how grand juries were, how indictment procedures work. i personally presented evidence to grand jury, i want to talk about. that and third, in some ways most importantly, they're advocating a consequences for thee but not for me approach. which is so ironic, coming from the legislators, and pundits who attack reform prosecutors. for using their discretion to not go after people who are

committing crimes of poverty, jumping turnstiles, because they don't have a two dollar and 75 cents there. and now attacking alvin braille for prosecuting cases. they don't want to have a both. >> ways that's a good point. i want to return to all of them. let, specifically you talk about, that is the prosecutor's role for meeting the grand jury and what's happening behind the scenes. number one, alvin bragg has had to send out multiple notes to his staff, and his office this week, to basically assuage their concerns about what i assume is their own personal safety. today he sent out a letter, i know it hasn't been easy, he wrote in the email, with all the press attention, security around the office. and thanked everyone for their strength and professionalism during this time. people think it's not just bragg that's doing this work. there is a team of people, for people who don't understand what's happening in the da's office. what kind of peril are people putting themselves and, who's working on these cases, how many civil servants are we talking about. and is there the kind of protection, are there

safety protocols and pays for something like this because it seems so unprecedented? >> absolutely right, alex. the level of attention that is donald trump's bringing and the vitriol and hatred and threats, is unprecedented. it's never happened. the grand jury procedures were invented by our founding fathers as they say. to protect individual rights against the overreach of the state. and what people are getting so, wrong is the idea that it's somehow alvin bragg individually and personally. who's making all the decisions. the grand jury itself -- if they want to hear from other witnesses. if they want to see another piece of. evidence and then there's an entire office as you point out -- the attorneys but also investigators and paralegals and support staff. it personnel or making sure that the grand jury, which is itself in charge. of this investigation not alvin bragg, constitutionally. it's its own body. i indicted a murder case when i was da of san francisco.

i thought i knew all the evidence that the ground -- witnesses under subpoena, the pieces of evidence lined up. and then grand jury said, we want to see another piece of evidence more, or different. and that's part of why the timing here, the idea that trump would know that he was gonna be indicted on a particular day. it's preposterous. >> and maybe i guess, do you think it's a foregone conclusion that an indictment is eminent? >> no, i do not. no. we cannot know. the only people who know are the grand jury members themselves. they may not have yet taken about. but it doesn't matter to trump. >> i need task, your cranberry >> i need to ask, you're a grand member and you see the amount of violence in the air, if not actually executed. does this have a chilling effect on the ground jury. i would assume, if you're a layperson, that's been called to be on the grand jury, that this kind of rhetoric is terrifying, it's

terrifying for the prosecutor, what kind of real world effect does it have on the case itself do you think, if any? >> it has a potential real effect on the case. it's one of the reasons why we're seeing trump and his allies get out ahead of the potential indictment to try and influence the grand jurors, to try and influence potential teachers who might hear the evidence and a guilt stance, down the road, and also obviously, for trump's purposes to fund-raise, and to rally his base ahead of a presidential campaign. >> there was a broad expectation, partially because of the harming of trump being invited to testify with a grand jury in his announcement that he was gonna be arrested this. make that this is all gonna come to a head this week. it didn't. it's been delayed, there's been a lot of armchair analysis about why that may be. you were a da. as we look at the inaction this. weak and look towards next week. do you think, again, i know you're not in that room, but how do you look at if you will, slow down of this week and what that could suggest? >> there's a lot of possible explanation. one is security

concerns mentioned earlier. not only for members of da bragg's office, and team, but for the grand jurors themselves. second thing is, the grand jury may have wanted to see more evidence. and hear from additional witnesses. they may be deliberating, ahead of a vote. there may be multiple different potential charges that they're considering. other things, mundane bureaucratic things could be slowing it down. they could've taken a vote in there waiting for a judge to come and formally accept assigned indictment. our to file the indictment with the court. again, this is an independent body. separated apart from the da's office. it's not alvin bragg unilaterally making a decision. but again, these republicans and their apologists don't care about procedures, or constitutional rights. and the same folks who attacked prosecutors like myself and like alvin bragg, like so many across the country -- >> fani willis in atlanta. >> calling for reforms, calling for a system of justice that works for everybody. not just for the rich, powerful, well connected. all of a sudden they're outraged that people

are enforcing the laws. go figure. these people, who cloak themselves in tough on crime rhetoric. who claim to want more resources for police and prosecutors. all of a sudden, when they're the ones being investigated. >> it's defund the fbi, defund the department of justice. >> who would've thought that was republican -- they'd be much more honest and transparent if they simply said, they believe in two systems of justice. if they believe that people like donald trump, and a police officer who shooting killed unarmed black man, and the insurrectionists who stormed the capitol on january 6th are above the law. if they just said that, it's clever their position. but they're using smoke, mirrors, personal attacks, procedural attacks, to distract all of us from the hypocrisy, the irony, and the act that they've committed very serious crimes, >> they may in fact, some of them, but maybe actual violence. we cannot forget that when trump gives, close to some people here at. and that's what's terrifying about what's

on the horizon here. >> let's not forget, capitol police officer was killed during the january six insurrection, let's not forget that today, alvin bragg received a death threat. an elected official! received a death threat, why? because of donald trump's rhetoric and his apologists rhetoric and the republican party. it's unacceptable, it's dangerous, and it may well be criminal. >> chase abu dean, it's great to see you. thank you for your time. it's such a depressing, distressing series of topics we need to talk about. i appreciate your president. >> good to be with, you. alex >> we have a lot to get to this evening, like a tiktok influencers new campaign to use trump's favorite social media platform against time. but it seems to be working. plus, another loss for team trump, another win for the justice department special counsel that's investigating trump's role in january six. we'll get to that, coming up next. time for downy mcbride to go to work.

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>> today we learned a laundry

list of the principal players in the trump universe have been called in or about to be called in by the special counsel and will head to a ground jury room to deliver testimony against trump's wishes we know that special counsel jack smith is in a court battle in an effort to compel former vice president mike pence is tense among many about january six. trump's attorneys were in court yesterday trying to block the testimony trump has already lost the fight to stop his attorney in the mar-a-lago documents case from appearing before the grand jury. today, trump lawyer evan corcoran interest to fight for three and a half hours before the grand jury in that probe. courts have for the role that special counsel prosecutors can review corcoran's documents on his record concerning trump this comes after the special counsel team convince the judge that there is evidence that trump misled lawyers regarding the existence of classified documents stored at mar-a-lago. now corcoran is just the latest witness to be forced to provide testimony and the latest person

from trump's inner circle the trump hasn't been able to stop from testifying. and today we learned that the federal judge in d. c. has ordered a who's who of trump's inner circle to provide testimony and special counsel in the january six investigation. that list includes former chief of staff mark meadows, his director of national intelligence, john ratcliffe, adviser robert o'brien and former close advisor steve miller and former deputy chief of staff chances vina, former top department of homeland security official ken cuccinelli. and former white house aide, nick luna and john mcentee. trump tried to stop that crew from appearing before the january 6th round jury. as attempts that derailed the investigation have failed and the legal battles are far from over. jack smith also has subpoenas out to january jared kushner and ivanka trump. joining us now to discuss is evelyn barrett security reporter for the national. coast and former federal prosecutor, devlin. thank you both for being here.

just from the prosecutors perspective i wonder how you interpret this string of victories for jack smith and what it means for future subpoenas like those of ivanka trump and jared kushner. >> alex, this goes to the heart of why the executive privilege defense or barriers won't work here because dating back to the united states versus nixon the supreme court made it clear that the executive privilege which doesn't exist won't shield the communications in the face of a criminal grand jury investigation which is what we have going on right here. these folks all indicate that smith zeroing in on people who are in a position to know about trump's state of mind the intent which is really gonna be the core of the controversy over whether he really believed that there was a problem with the election war what was he doing in terms of trying to overturn the election results these are the kind of people you need to have in there to

make that case for or against my only frustration as i wish that it happened a lot earlier. >> i'm sure, some people wish the same. devlin, in terms of evan corcoran's testimony through to eight hours we have little reporting from what went on behind closed doors but i do wonder what you think a grand jury might want to focus on in terms of evan corcoran as it pertains to the mar-a-lago case. >> remember the rule evan corcoran plays and how this case develops. evan corcoran is the lawyer that conduct says the search of the classified documents at mar-a-lago after trump's receives a subpoena demanding the return of all classified documents that's a huge point of contention between the prosecutors and trump's legal team because remember it's ultimately the government investigators come to believe that that was not a good faith and effort to recover all the

classified materials and that's what led to the search later. on evan corcoran's the lawyer that does that search is the lawyer who is primarily responsible for dealing with the government when the governments trying to recover the classified documents one thing to consider ethical lot of people think that these people -- that's not necessarily the case. i think a lot of smart prosecutors put witnesses like evan corcoran or other people close to the main part of the investigation which leads the ground very to see what the defenses do the people we're investigating have a strong defense against this accusation and i think a lot of smart prosecutors put those kind of witnesses and because it gives them sort of a crack at whatever the defense might be and that may be part of the dynamic and the legal docking that's going on. >> i want to follow up on, that have, when you reported that prosecutors, the grand jury's gonna have access to evan corcoran's notes and documents and i wonder if you can flush

that out a bit more in terms of, their particular revelers to the mar-a-lago case >>? >> you don't know what the notes say but we know what evan corcoran's role wasn't this and that's important he was the one that did the search. so, what did the notes say about where he was told to search? was there any place that he was told not to search. what's evan corcoran told anything by his client, donald, trump that turned out not to be true. remember, one of the other things that we end up as a report it is to get to this stage of getting evan corcoran 's testimony the judge had essentially first finding that there's some evidence here that trump may have misled his own lawyer so for all those reasons you want to see what's in the notes and not just notes but in voices any emails between people, these are all important pieces of evidence that in many ways, and many instances only

evan corcoran can provide. >> when you talk about key figures, evan corcoran is definitely the guy from mar-a-lago. but we know from the parallels to january six probe mark meadows the presidents white house chief of staff, someone whose tax have been treated to the january 60 investigation was a key player in all of the events and in around the attempt to undermine the results in 2020 election. mark meadows was the person between congress, and trump that day, he's the person that's on the call to brad raffensperger trying to get 11,000 votes. in the state of georgia. so that trump can win it. he's funneling those trump election fraud claims from congress to the white house. he is a central player and all this. and i wonder where you think trump's most vulnerable.

in the january six probe when it comes to mark meadows testimony? >> i think for mark meadows, like corcoran, although not a lawyer he's the guy in the room, he's gonna be extremely privy to what trump's real thoughts are, and i think importantly even aside from the state of mind, it's his corroborating testimony to what trump did, didn't do that day, what he really wanted to have happened. either through action or inaction, and that's circumstantial evidence just from the action. he doesn't need to speculate as to what the former president was thinking, he can testify about what he did, what he was told, what he didn't do. after he's told about what was happening that day. >> do you think meadows is a test of the defenses argument, or do you think this is straight-up, the what -- that he has? >> i think it's most likely, both i think the challenge with mark meadows is that he's not always unreliable narrator. we know that he has in the past, and very defensive of donald trump, including in the course of legal investigation so i don't know ultimately what mark

meadows will decide to tell the grounders, i will say that a large pattern of behavior from mark meadows is that i don't think he's gonna necessarily be a willing, or particularly helpful witness against former president. but he may still be an important witness, even if he's not a cooperative witness if that makes sense. >> it has. it does make sense. sharon, i need to ask. at the risk of being overly optimistic that, the face of prognostication about the special counsel probe may be coming to a close. do you see any indicators here, given the fact that we're talking about meadows, pence, and trump's lawyer, and mar-a-lago, these people are all being rounded up and they're going to testify in

front of these grand juries. does that suggest to you, that we are towards, the war at the end stages of jack smith investigation here? >> i like to say. last but i don't think so. these are really important people who any good prosecutor would want to have in there. really depends a lot on what he gets from them. he's jumped on the sorts of witnesses early anticipation, a lot of litigation just to get them in there, and that's exactly what's happening so if i had to say where he was i would say middle or maybe moving towards the end but it's really these key witnesses that they need to hear from in order to formulate what kind of evidence there is for potential charges. >> develin, i don't know if it's a disappointment or not but when you think about the timeframe here and what's

unfolding in the manhattan da's case and his potential indictment of the president. do you think it has any effect the politics that i've been so primally injected into this by the former president do you think that has any effect on the timeframe that jack smith is thinking of. i know the doj operates about politics but the landscape is so fraud already before even one criminal indictment has been launched. you know i think it's a great question, the great concern, obviously all these cases are happening under a very intense, public glare. but i think at the end of the day, these prosecutors need to do their own jobs on their own, even if that risks to some degree of timing problems or just fusion -- about what is going on right now.

it's too messy to be coordinating, or communicating and a significant [inaudible] specific way. so, i don't think you're gonna see much coordination. and if that creates a degree of public, political confusion, i suspect that's something that prosecutors believe they have to live with. >> we're all gonna have to live with it, devlin, darren, shannon, thank you for your time tonight. we appreciate it. >> we have more to come tonight, a tiktok influencer plays a prank on former president trump on his own virtual turf. plus, state supreme court judges in oklahoma say the quiet part out loud, openly questioning how to waive a value of a pregnant woman's life against the value of the fetus she's carrying. stay with us. to each their home. ♪♪ remember the things you loved doing... before your asthma got in the way?

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free expression, and will not be an manipulated by any government. >> that was a ceo of the social media platform tiktok testifying before congress yesterday amid calls from lawmakers and both parties, to ban the app in the united states. those lawmakers argue that the chinese owned company poses a threat to national security by potentially allowing the chinese government to collect data millions of americans are

-- who oppose the, baton argue that the security concerns are rooted in xenophobic. whatever you think about tiktok, one thing is certain, more than a third of americans, a third of the country, already use the app. and its users have an enormous amount of political power at their fingertips. remember back in 2020, when donald trump decided to hold a rally in tulsa, oklahoma, which was the site of a historic massacre of black americans? having decided to hold that rally during the weekend of juneteenth? trump's campaign boasted that more than 1 million people had requested tickets for the rally. but on the day of the event, turnout was a whole lot lower than that. a massive wave of tiktok, users led by a group of k-pop fabs, took credit, they celebrated their trump trolling, signing up to attend the rally with no intention of actually showing up. >> somebody on the tiktok post commented that he was offering two free tickets on his campaign website.

and then someone investigate it, is this two free tickets per cell phone. i recommend all of us that want to see the 19,000 filled or emptied -- and leave him standing there alone on the stage. what do you think. >> trump's running for president again. and tiktok users are back at it. this is tiktok influencer, peter mcidoe, he's most famous for helping to popularize the online show, birds aren't real, here he is explaining that movement in an interview. >> a message of the movement, essentially to spread awareness from 1959, to 2001. the government mercilessly, genocided over 12 billion birds, and simultaneously replaced them with surveillance drones that film us every day as equally as the cameras are filming us right now. >> for the record birds are very much real. now mcidoe has said on a new target trump and

his right-wing social media platform truth social. >> we can take over trump's app right now. the top trending topic only have about 100 people talking about them so this means that only if 100 enough make accounts and pose with a new hashtag it will little league trending and -- in my opinion, the hashtag we should use is desantis 2024 rhonda scent is we don't know is the biggest enemy and main challenger for 2024 -- truth social is trump's app, and his own attorneys are turning against them, and switching teams. i think he'd actually lose his mind. >> mcintosh posted the video on tuesday, according to nbc news by that afternoon the hashtag desantis 2024 had shot its way up to the top spot having accrued more than 1500 mentions

overnight.as signups shot up this week some online claim, they can no longer job. the app has paused the accepted process for new accounts. others speculated the influx of synapse could have crashed truth social servers. there's no word from trump on all of, that's as the campaign to serve as a warning to lawmakers looking to change any social media regulations. mess with tiktok influences at their own risk. when we come, back the supreme court hands a small decision to antiabortion forces but inside that defeat are clues to what may be the next chilling attack on reproductive freedom. that's next. nah, sorry son prices are crazy, we're gonna have to skip it this year. (son deflating fully to the ground.) awh, well use priceline they have package deals no one else has. five pools? (son reinflating slowly.) water slide? (son reinflates fully.) we can do it! (fully inflated - squeaks as arms wave.) ♪ go to your happy price ♪ ♪ priceline. ♪ hey guys, detect this: living with hiv, i learned that i can stay undetectable with fewer medicines. that's why i switched to dovato.

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kevin stitt signed a law banning nearly all abortions, with exceptions for rape and incest and, in certain cases, the life of the mother. but the last part, saving the life of the mother, is murky for doctors, who can be seen by anybody in oklahoma just for treating their patient. shortly after the law passed, a woman found out she was carrying an ectopic pregnancy. her fertilize egg had implanted outside of her uterus, a life-threatening condition. when the obstetrician refused to treat, or the pregnant patient call the medical director and okla -- abortion clinic in oklahoma city. they sent it to the facility in kansas, where abortion is legal. by that time, though, her condition had deteriorated so much at a hospital had to terminate her pregnancy. this is what can happen under abortion bans like oklahoma's. a pregnant person with no chance of saving the pregnancy has to fight for their right to

live cannot die with a non viable fetus. and that is why reproductive rights advocates filed a lawsuit last summer to challenge oklahoma's multiple abortion bans, including a now active zombie law from the year in 1910, one that makes performing any abortion a felony punishable by prison time, unless the same is necessary to preserve her life. this week the oklahoma supreme court weighed in. in a narrow 5 to 4 ruling the court said, yes, the state constitution creates an inherent right to abortion when the pregnant woman's life is threatened. the majority row, a woman has an inherent right to choose to terminate her pregnancy if at any point within the pregnancy the woman's physician has determined to a reasonable degree of medical certainty or probability that the continuation of the pregnancy will endanger the woman's life due to the pregnancy itself or a medical condition. okay. the court the ruling, the majority citing the state of constitution that says, all persons have the inherent right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

so on its face it seems like a small victory for people who support abortion rights. but as always, the devil is in the details. one of the dissenting justices wrote that balancing the life of the fetus and the mother is unnecessary and worthy dialogue for the people to -- another added, under some rare and terrible circumstances, people's rights for life may conflict. how do we balance that? the justices defense begs the question if the state legislature does not specifically state that the right to life applies to women whose pregnancies might kill them, then must they simply forego treatment and die? as three justices wrote in a concurring opinion, in some instances, women may have fewer rights than a convicted murderer on death row. these women may be subject to a death sentence without being afforded due process. imagine that. joining us now is caroline kitchener, the washington post reporter who has been covering the politics of abortion. caroline, thank you for being here tonight.

i would love to get your assessment of the legal argument that is being made here on the part of the dissending judges. because it feels like a new frontier. really arguing that the life of the pregnant woman and the fetus she is carrying are equal. and it's unclear whose life should be saved in an extreme circumstance. >> i think the important part to take away, alex, is this ruling, it's not going to make doctors comfortable doing what they need to do to protect the health of the women they're serving. i talk to doctors. recently i talked to a doctor in a ban state that was just terrified. because they are seeing women come in with pregnancy complications. and they're having to in split seconds make that decision, is this dangerous enough?.

is this life-threatening enough? and i think that reading, especially the way -- and a lot of what's in this ruling is going to be really concerning for doctors. one thing that really stood out to me is that they're very particular with the language. it does not cover situations where there is a possibility that the mother's life could be in danger. speculation is not enough. it would have to be a reasonable chance. i think that when you are in there, in that hospital room, that's a really hard call to make for the doctor. >> because what we are talking about is this threshold in which, what's being litigated is the threshold at which a woman is -- how endangered her life actually is. and it's not just a possibility that going septic will kill her, she actually has to be septic in order to get that abortion. and the line there seems to be incredibly confused.

doctors, it sounds, like are reacting by just not wanting to do it at all, in your reporting -- i would ask this more nationally, is the climate of fear pronounced enough that doctors are just saying, i am not getting involved in this at all? >> i think it varies. i've also spoken to doctors in ban states to say, i committed a felony today. and they say that proudly. because they believe with every fiber of there being they are doing the right saying, even if they're violating the law. and the stance they take is, hey, i am not going to go back on my medical oath. for this reason. and, you know what, i don't think -- doctors are people with a lot to lose. i think that is probably less common, the people who are out there saying proudly that they're committing felonies -- because a lot of doctors are extremely scared. they are scared for their licenses. they are scared for their livelihoods.

and i think this is going to be a really big thing to watch going forward. how they are forced to deal with this and how state legislatures do. >> i know we are all awaiting a big ruling in texas and whether or not the fda can continue, or women can continue to access the drug mifepristone as part of a two drug protocol from medication abortions. i have long been worried that a victory in getting this off the market could mean a very serious trouble for the other abortion bill, which is -- we have news out of wyoming that there is a bill that basically broadly outlaws using any medication for abortion. it does not mention specific drugs. but i wonder whether you think this is a salvo in just outlying all forms of medication abortion? >> i think it's really hard to say. that did come up during the hearing last week. i was in the courtroom in

amarillo and toward the end there was some conversation. the judge was asking what about the other drug. and the plaintiffs did say, that is not the purpose of this law sue. i do think that it could come into play with these lawsuits because if one of the things at issue is mailing abortion pills -- that is not any specific one, it could become a lot harder to access either one of these. i think it is too early to say whether the approval of -- is going to come into question a little bit harder because it is used for a lot of different things, not just abortions. i think the antiabortion movement may be seeing that as a bit more challenging. >> i think any moment where we're actively debating and court whether the value of a woman's life is superseded by

that of her fetus, it means everything is on the table in terms of restricting reproductive freedom. caroline kitchener, thank you so much for your reporting. we appreciate you tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> we have one more story for you tonight. what is a college professor to do when a student finds learning about civil rights uncomfortable? in rona desantis's florida, the answer is, cancel class. that is next. - yes. i'm a cfp® professional. - cfp® professionals are committed to acting in your best interest. that's why it's gotta be a cfp®. find your cfp® professional at letsmakeaplan.org.

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civil rights movement, too small schools in florida merged to form what is now known as eastern florida state college. the goal of the new college was to offer affordable tuition and to provide educational opportunities to the black residents in the area. 60 years later it is now governor ron desantis's florida, and eastern florida state colleges making headlines for this. canceling a u.s. government class after a student cited discomfort during a discussion on civil rights. one student. singular. and we don't know who the

student was or the exact context of the discussion, but what happened was the class was canceled under the umbrella of governor desantis's stop woke act, which specifically banned the teaching of any lesson, especifically about race and racism if the lesson makes any student feel discomfort. here is what that looks like in real life. >> the topic was civil rights. no specific benefit, just in general, as far as i'm aware. and so the teacher basically had to cancel this class of about 20 students in total because of the student's discomfort. >> due to ongoing legal challenges, the stop woke act has not been implemented at florida colleges and universities yet. but confusion and concern are already widespread as teachers from elementary to high school to college reevaluate the way that they teach and apparently what they teach.