time. this it matter which one really drops first, does it change the efforts by other prosecutors if the new york da, the grand jury levels their charges and there is an indictment coming, down how does that play into the interaction at work? >> generally speaking, it's more about what our witnesses are available and in this case the witness would be, donald trump. as the person indicted. but they work it out, there is literally conversations that happened between us, they work it out. i will say this, i'm gonna be the person who says that it doesn't matter. only because indictment's indictment's indictment. >> indictment,'s indictment, indictment. maya wiley, and stephanie augustine, thank you. both well, that's all in for this. week alex wagner tonight starts right now. good evening, alex. good evening, mister steele. former chairman steele. i gotta say, it's like the movie everything, everywhere, all at 16 apt this is about

criminal indictment. >> i know, and it all kind of convergence that one spot, right at that spot is trump. imagine that. >> do stay tuned, next week it's been great to see you these days, michael. >> you too, alex. >> and thanks to all of you at home for joining us this hour. tomorrow president trump is holding what he's doing as the first official rally in 2024 presidential campaign. now trump couldn't pick anywhere in the country for this event, he may have focused on iowa or the first republican presidential caucus was gonna be held. he could've stayed close to home, in florida, and redrawn desantis -- yes, a little bit. but instead trump chose texas. a state that really doesn't appear to have much strategic -- for his come back that he didn't choose houston or dallas or austin, or any of the highly populated cities that texas has to offer. trump chose the 24th largest

city in texas skipping 23 more logical choices. to land on waco. a city of just 140,000 people that is famous nationally for just one thing. i'm 1993 a 51 day standoff between federal law enforcement and a religious cult. that left four federal agents dead and around 80 members of the cult, 25 of them children dead as well. it was quite literally the biggest gun fight on american soil since the civil war. and because the inciting incident for that siege with several law enforcement attempting to raid the cult compound, because they were illegally stockpiling guns, waco something of a touchstone for the american far-right. waco is a symbol. so the fact that trump is going there is a big deal. as the houston chronicle put it, in an editorial yesterday, trump's -- waco. waco has become an alum of sorts. a shrine for the proud boys,

the three percenters, the oath keepers and other anti government extremists and conspiracists. and 2000, a pro trump far-right conspiracy theorist, alex jones, put out a full length documentary called, america, wake up or waco. jones was so obsessed with waco that he convince the remaining members of the religious cult to rebuild their church. the one that was destroyed in the siege. jones used his radio show to raise tens of thousands of dollars towards that effort. and 2015, trump's longtime political adviser, roger stone published a book called, the clinton's war on women. stone dedicated that book to the members of the religious cult who died in the waco siege. and specifically blamed hillary clinton further death. and now, the church that alex jones helped pay to rebuild. that church is now led by this man, he's a pastor like waco's leader, david crash in the 90s, he preaches about the coming

apocalypse. his sermon, has a new star. he believes, donald trump is the anointed of god, at that trump is a battering ram that, god's using to bring down the deep state of babylon. that pastor told the new times, he's for sure going to trump's rally tomorrow. donald trump is choosing to kick off his presidential campaign in a place that happens to be the center of a lot of violent symbolism, a place where they bloody history of citizen led uprising against the federal government. and there's more, this is timothy mcvay, a 24 years old mcvay visited waco in 1993. he went while the siege was underway as a show of support for the armed call, and to sell anti government pro gun tee shirts and bumper stickers. you likely know mcvay is the one the oklahoma city bombers, in 1995 mcvay's partner carrie nickel, committed the deadliest act of domestic terrorism in u.s. history, blowing up a

federal vote in oklahoma city. they killed 168 people, and wounded hundreds of others. before he was executed, mcvay described his motive by saying, quote, waco started this war. he hoped that oklahoma would handle. okay, and now in the year 2023, with all of that history, trump's choosing waco as the site of his first campaign rally. the anti government message here is not subtle. the violent history is not secret. but trump has an extensive history of both downplaying and encouraging acts of violence. and in 2016 campaign, trump routinely urged his supporters to attack protesters in the crowd. >> knock the crap out of them, like you, seriously. okay, just not that hal, i promise you i will paid for the legal fees, i promise. i promise. >> after a violence broke out in a white supremacist rally in

charlottesville, virginia, and the first year presidency. trump said this. >> you also had people that were very fine people, on both sides. >> in a presidential debate in 2020, trump was asked if he was willing to condemn white supremacists and militia groups, , specifically whether he would call for the proud boys to stand down. instead, trump said this. >> proud boys, stand back, stand by. >> after the fbi search mar-a-lago last, summer trump used inflammatory rhetoric to demonize that agency. three days later, one of his supporters attacked the fbi cincinnati field office with an nailed, on an air 15 style rifle. and then of, course there was january 6th, where trump rhetoric and promotion of the big lie let's to violently overtake our nation's capital. rather than condemn that attack, trump and his allies in congress have martyred the attackers. today, congresswoman marjorie taylor greene led a congressional tour, to visit

january six descendants in jail. trump himself, as promised to pardon anyone who committed crimes that day if he's reelected. and tomorrow, trump scheduled to hold his first official 2024 campaign rally in waco. exactly at the same moment as trump. and the rest of the country await has likely at a not criminal indictment. this is a perilous time for donald tripe. he's desperate to regain the presidency, but he could be arrested any day now. so, he's encouraging his followers to become martyrs, and defend him. all week, trump's been attacking prosecutors, and all of the various cases, against him. but in particular, he's been focused on manhattan da, alvin bragg. the prosecutor re-seems likely to indict him first. trump has called the black prosecutor of sorrow -- backed animal. and compared his office to the gestapo. he's mocked the idea that his supporters should respond peacefully to an indictment from the da. last, night trump went so far

as to say that if he's indicted, he will, quote potential death and destruction would soon follow. tonight, a senior law enforcement official told nbc news, that there's been several hundred threats to alvin bragg's office in recent weeks. a couple dozen threatened serious harm brag him self. and today bragg's office received a letter filled with white powder. that red, alvin, i'm going to kill you. joining us now is chase aberdeen, so moore's -- district attorney, chase, it's good to see. oh i'm sorry, it's under these offices i just want to know. as someone who understands the way -- to be a da, from one da to another, what do you make from the direct targeting of a da by the former president of the united states who has a history of inciting violence? >> thanks for having me,. alex what a way to wind down the week here. >> not lying down, i get. it >>, look it's really

problematic. it's irresponsible and dangerous and it may well be criminal. i want to emphasize three different. points and hopefully we'll have a time to talk about all of them. my wife thinks to get paid by the. word but obviously i'm not being paid. the first thing that's important, is that these attacks, personally, procedurally on folks like alvin bragg are precisely because trump and his republican apologist are trying to distract all of this, the american people from the facts, nobody is defending the conduct that underlies these investigations, no one's denying at. they're trying to do a bag and switch the procedural and personal attacks, second thing that's really important. to pull that off, they're blatantly misrepresenting if they so often do, the basic realities of how grandeur ease were. how indictment procedures work. i personally presented evidence to grand jury, i want to talk about. that and third, in some ways most importantly, they're

advocating a consequences for the but not for me approach. which is so ironic, coming from the legislators, and pundit to attack reform prosecutors. for using their discretion to not go after people who are competing promise of politics, jumping turnstiles, because they don't have a two dollar and 75 cents there. and now attacking alvin braille for prosecuting cases. they don't want to have a both. >> ways that's a good point. i want to return to all of them. let, specifically you talk about, that is the prosecutor's role for meeting the grand jury and what's happening behind the scenes. number, why now than bragg has had to send out multiple notes to his staff, and his office this week, to basically assuage their concerns about what i assume is their own personal safety. today he sent out a letter, i know it hasn't been easy, he wrote in the. email with all the press attention, security around the office. and we thank everyone for their

strength and professionalism during this time. people think it's not just ragen brag that's doing this work. there is a team of people, for people who don't understand what's happening in the da's office. what kind of peril are people putting themselves and, who's working on these cases, how many civil servants are we talking about. and is there the kind of protection, are they're safety protocols and pays for something like this because it seems so unprecedented? >> absolutely right, alex. the level of attention that is donald trump's big -- vitriol and hatred and threats, is unprecedented. it's never happened. the grand jury procedures were invented by our founding father has they say. to protect individual rights against the overreach of the state. and what people are getting so, wrong is the idea that it's somehow alvin bragg individually and personally. who's making all the decisions. the grand jury itself -- if they want to hear from other witnesses. if they want to see another piece of. evidence and then there's an

entire office as you point out -- the attorneys but also investigators. and paralegals and support staff. there is a t personnel or making sure that the grand jury, which is itself in charge. of this investigation not alvin bragg, constitutionally. it's its own body. i indicted a murder case when i was didier of san francisco. i thought i knew all the evidence that the ground -- witnesses under subpoena, the pieces of evidence lined up. and in the grand jury said, we want to see another piece of evidence more, or different. and that's part of why the timing here, the idea that trump would know that he was gonna be indicted on a particular day. it's preposterous. >> and maybe i guess, do you think it's a foregone conclusion that an indictment is eminent? >> no, i do not. no. we cannot know. the only people who know are the grand jury members themselves. they may not have yet taken about. but it doesn't matter to trump.

>> i need task, your cranberry member and you see the amount of violence in the air, if not actually executed. does this have a chilling effect on the ground jury. i would assume, if you're a layperson, that's been called to be on the grand jury, that this kind of rhetoric is terrifying, it's terrifying for the prosecutor, what kind of real world effect does it have on the case itself do you think, if any? >> it has a potential real effect on the case. it's one of the reasons why we're seeing trump and his allies get out ahead of the potential indictment. to try and influence the grandeurs, to try and influence potential teachers who might hear the evidence and a guilt stance, down the road, and also obviously, for trump's purposes to fund-raise, and to rally his base ahead of a presidential campaign. >> there was a broad expectation, partially because of the harming of trump, invited to testify with a grand jury in his announcement that he was gonna be arrested this. make that this is all gonna come to a head this week. it did. "t p'd it's been delayed, theres been a lot of armchair analysis about why that may be.

you are a dea. as we look at the inaction this. weak and look towards next week. do you think, again, i know you're not in that room, but how do you look at if you will, slow down of this week and what that could suggest? >> there's a lot of possible explanation,, wonder security certainty mentioned earlier. not only for members of da bragg's office, and team, but for the grand jurors themselves. second thing is, the grand jury may have wanted to see more evidence. and hear from additional witnesses. they may be deliberating, ahead of a vote. there may be multiple different potential charges that they're considering. other things, men game through aquatic things could be slowing it down. they could've taken a vote in there waiting for a judge to come and formally accept assigned indictment. our to file the indictment with the court. again, this is an independent body. separated apart from the da's office. it's not alvin bragg unilaterally making a decision. but again, these republicans

and their apologists don't care about procedures, or constitutional. rights and the same folks who attacked prosecutors like myself and like alvin bragg, like so many across the country -- >> fani willis in atlanta. >> calling for reforms, calling for a system of justice that works for everybody. not just for the rich, powerful, well connected. all of a sudden they're outraged that people are enforcing the law. go figure. these people, who cloak themselves -- who claim to want more resources for police and prosecutors. all of a sudden, when they're the ones being investigated. >> it's defund the fbi, defund the department of. dustin >> who would've thought that was republican -- they'd be much more honest and transparent if they simply said, they believe in two systems of justice. if they believe that people like donald trump, and a police officer who shooting killed unarmed black man, and the insurrectionists who stormed the capitol on january 6th are above the law. if they just said that, it's clever their position.

but they're using smoke, mirrors, personal attacks, procedural attacks, to distract all of us from the hypocrisy, the irony, and the act that they've committed very serious crimes, >> they may in fact, some of them, -- but maybe actual violence. we cannot forget that when trump gives, close to some people here at. and that's what's terrifying about what's on the horizon here. >> let's not forget, capitol police officer was killed during the january six insurrection, let's not forget that today, alvin bragg received a death threat. an elected official. received a death threat, why? because of donald trump's rhetoric and his apologists rhetoric and the republican party. it's unacceptable, it's dangerous, it may well be criminal. >> chase abu dean, it's great to see you. thank you for your time. it's such a depressing, distressing period of topics we need to talk about. i appreciate your president. >> but to be with, you. alex >> we have a lot to get to this evening, like a tiktok influencers new campaign to use trump's favorite social media

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>> today we learned a laundry

list of the principal players in the trump universe have been called in or about to be called in by the special counsel and will head to a ground jury room to deliver testimony against trump's wishes we know that special counsel jack smith is in a court battle in an effort to compel former vice president mike spence is tense among many about january six. trump's attorneys were in court yesterday trying to block the testimony trump has already lost the fight to stop his attorney in the mar-a-lago documents case from appearing before the grand jury. today, trump lawyer evan corcoran interest to fight for three and a half hours before the grand jury in that probe. courts have for the role that special counsel prosecutors can review corcoran's documents on his record concerning trump this comes after the special counsel team convince the judge that there is evidence that trump misled lawyers regarding the existence of classified documents stored at mar-a-lago now corcoran is just the latest witness to be forced to provide testimony and the latest person from trump's inner circle the

trump hasn't been able to stop from testifying and today we learned that the federal judge in d.c. has ordered a who's who of trump's inner circle to provide testimony and special counsel in the january six investigation. that analysts corner to the staff mark meadows is director of national intelligence -- adviser robert o'brien and former close advisor steve miller and former deputy chief of staff chances vina, former top department of homeland security official ken cuccinelli. and former white house aide, nick luna and john mcentee. trump tried to stop that crew from appearing before the january 6th round jury. as attempts that derailed the investigation have failed and the legal battles are far from over jack smith also has subpoenas out to january jared kushner and ivanka trump. joining us now to discuss is evelyn barrett security reporter for the national. coast and former federal prosecutor, devlin. thank you both for being here.

just from the prosecutors perspective i wonder how you interpret this string of victories for jack smith and what it means for future subpoenas like those of ivanka trump and jared kushner. >> alex, this goes to the heart of why the executive privilege defense or barriers won't work here because dating back to the united states versus nixon the supreme court made it clear that the executive privilege which doesn't exist won't shield the communications in the face of a criminal grand jury investigation which is what we have going on right here. these folks all indicate that smith zeroing in on people who are in a position to know about trump's state of mind the intent which is really gonna be the core of the controversy over whether he really believed that there was a problem with the election war what was he doing in terms of trying to overturn the election results these are the kind of people you need to have in there to

make that case for or against my only frustration as i wish that it happened a lot earlier. >> i'm sure, some people wish the same. devlin, in terms of evan corcoran's testimony through to eight hours we have little reporting from what went on behind closed doors but i do wonder what you think a grand jury might want to focus on in terms of evan corcoran as it pertains to the mar-a-lago case. >> remember the rule evan corcoran plays and how this case develops. evan corcoran is the lawyer that conduct says the search of the classified documents at mar-a-lago after trump's receives a subpoena demanding the return of all classified documents that's a huge point of contention between the prosecutors and trump's legal team because remember it's ultimately the government investigators come to believe that that was not a good faith

and effort to recover all the classified materials and that's what led to the search later. on evan corcoran's the lawyer that does that search is the lawyer who is primarily responsible for dealing with the government when the governments trying to recover the classified documents one thing to consider ethical lot of people think that these people -- that's not necessarily the case. i think a lot of smart prosecutors put witnesses like evan corcoran or other people close to the main part of the investigation which leads the ground very to see what the defenses do the people we're investigating have a strong defense against this accusation and i think a lot of smart prosecutors put those kind of witnesses and because it gives them sort of a crack at whatever the defense might be and that may be part of the dynamic and the legal docking that's going on. >> i want to follow up on, that

have, when you reported that prosecutors, the grand jury's gonna have access to evan corcoran's notes and documents and i wonder if you can flush that out a bit more in terms of, their particular revelers to the mar-a-lago case >>? >> you don't know what the notes say but we know what evan corcoran's role wasn't this and that's important he was the one that did the search. so, what did the notes say about where he was told to search? was there any place that he was told not to search. what's evan corcoran told anything by his client, donald, trump that turned out not to be true. remember, one of the other things that we end up as a report it is to get to this stage of getting evan corcoran's testimony the judge had essentially first finding that there's some evidence here that trump may have misled his own lawyer so for all those reasons you want to see what's in the notes and not just notes but in voices any emails

between people, these are all important pieces of evidence that in many ways, and many instances only evan corcoran can provide. >> when you talk about key figures, evan corcoran is definitely the guy from mar-a-lago. but we know from the parallels to january six probe mark meadows the presidents white house chief of staff, someone whose tax have been treated to the january 60 investigation was a key player in all of the events and in around the attempt to undermine the results in 2020 election. mark meadows was the person between congress, and trump that day, he's the person that's on the call to brad raffensperger trying to get 11,000 votes. in the state of georgia. so that trump get wet. -- from congress to the white house. he is a central player and all this. and i wonder where you think trump's most vulnerable. in the january six probe when it comes to mark meadows

testimony? >> i think for mark meadows, like corcoran, although not a lawyer he's the guy in the room, he's gonna be extremely privy to what trump's real thoughts are, and i think importantly even aside from the state of mind, it's his corroborating testimony to what trump did, didn't do that day, what he really wanted to have happened. either through action or inaction, and that's circumstantial evidence just from the action. he doesn't need to speculate as to what the former president was thinking, he can testify about what he did, what he was told, what he didn't do. after he's told about what was happening that day. >> do you think meadows is a test of the defenses argument, or do you think this is straight-up, the what -- that he has? >> i think it's most likely, both i think the challenge with mark meadows is that he's not always unreliable narrator. we know that he has in the past,

and very defensive of donald trump, including in the course of legal investigation so i don't know ultimately what mark meadows will decide to tell the grounders, i will say that a large pattern of behavior from mark meadows is that i don't think he's gonna necessarily be a willing, or particularly helpful witness against former president. but he may still be an important witness, even if he's not a cooperative witness if that makes sense. >> it has. it does make sense. sharon, i need to ask. at the risk of being overly optimistic that, the face of prognostication about the special counsel probe may be coming to a close. do you see any indicators here, given the fact that we're talking about meadows, pence, and trump's lawyers, and mar-a-lago, these people are all being rounded up and they're going to testify in front of these grand juries. does that suggest to you, that

were towards, the war at the end stages of jack smith investigation here? >> i like to say. last but i don't think so. these are really important people who any good prosecutor would want to have in their it really depends a lot on what he gets from them. he's jumped on the sorts of witnesses early anticipation, a lot of litigation just to get them in their, and that's exactly what's happening so if i had to say where he was i would say middle or maybe moving towards the end but it's really these key witnesses that they need to hear from in order to formulate what kind of evidence there is for potential charges. >> javelin, i don't know if it's a disappointment or not but when you think about the timeframe here and what's unfolding in the manhattan da case and his potential indictment of the president.

do you think it has any effect the politics that i've been so prime injected into this by the former president do you think that has any effect on the timeframe that jack smith is thinking that i know the doj operates about politics but the landscape is so fraud already before even one criminal indictment has been launched. you know i think it's a great question, the great concern, obviously all these cases are happening under a very intense, public glare. but i think at the end of the day, these prosecutors need to do their own jobs on their own. even if that risk to some degree of timing problems or just fusion -- about what is going on right now. -- to be coordinating, or communicating and a significant [inaudible] specific way. so, i don't think you're gonna

see much coordination. and if that creates a degree of public, political confusion, i suspect that something that prosecutors believe they have to live with. >> we're all gonna have to live with it, javelin, darren, shannon, thank you for your time tonight. we appreciate it. >> we have more to come tonight, a tiktok influencer clays a prank on former president trump. on his own virtual turf. plus, state supreme court judges in oklahoma say that the quiet part out loud. open questioning. how to waive a value of a pregnant woman's life against the value of the fetus she's carrying. stay with us. les) yeek. not cryin', are ya? let's tighten that. (fabric ripping) ooh. - wait, wh- wh- what was that? - huh? what, that? no, don't worry about that. here we go. - asking the right question can greatly impact your future. - are, are you qualified to do this? - what? - especially when it comes to your finances. - yeehaw! - do you have a question? - are you a certified financial planner™? - yes. i'm a cfp® professional.

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american >> and will not be manipulated by any government. >> that was the ceo of the social media platform, tiktok. testifying before congress yesterday amid calls from lawmakers and both parties, to ban the app in the united states. those lawmakers argue that the chinese own company, poses a threat to national security. by potentially allowing the chinese government to collect data millions of americans are -- who oppose the, baton argue that the security concerns are rooted in xenophobic. whenever you think about tiktok,

one thing is certain, more than a third of americans, a third of the country. already use the app. and its users have an enormous amount of political power at their fingertips. remember back in 2020, when donald trump decided to hold a rally in tulsa, oklahoma, which was the site of a historic massacre of black americans? having decided to hold that rally during the weekend -- trump's campaign boasted that more than 1 million people had requested tickets for the rally. but on the day of the event, turnout was a whole lot lower than that. a massive wave of tiktok, users led by a group of k-pop fabs, took credit, they celebrated their trump trolling, signing on to attend the rally with no intention of actually showing up. >> somebody on the tiktok post commented that he was offering to pre-tickets on his campaign website. and then someone investigate it, is this two free tickets per cell phone. i recommend all of us that want to see the 19,000 filled or

emptied -- and leave him standing there alone the stage what do you think. >> trump's running for president again. and tiktok users are back at it. this is tiktok influencer, peter mcidoe, he's most famous for helping the popular is the online show, birds aren't real, here areas explaining that movement in an interview. >> a message of the movement, essentially to spread awareness from 1959, to 2001. the government mercilessly, a genocide over 12 billion birds, and simultaneously replace them with surveillance drone, in the sky. that film us every day as equally as the cameras are filming us right now. >> for the record birds are very much real now mcidoe has said on a new target trump and his right-wing social media

platform truth social -- >> we can take over trump's app right now the top trending topic only have about 100 people talking about them so this means that only if 100 enough mesa counts and pose with a new hashtag it will little league trending and -- in my opinion, the hashtag we should use is desantis 2024 rhonda scent is we don't know is the biggest enemy and main challenger for 2024 -- truth social is trump's back, and his own attorneys are turning against them, and switching teams. i think you'd actually lose his mind. >> mcintosh posted the video on tuesday, according to nbc news by that afternoon the hashtag desantis 2024 had shot and way up to the top spot having accrued more than 1500 mentions overnight as cited slighted troop social this week some online claim, they can no longer job. the app has paused the accepted process for new accounts. others speculated the influx of synapse could have crashed

truth social servers. there's no word from trump on all of, that's as the campaign to serve as a warning to lawmakers looking to change any social media regulations. mess with tiktok influences at their own race. when we come, back the supreme court hands a small decision to antiabortion forces but inside that defeat are clues to what may be the next chilling attack on reproductive freedom. that's next. enamel relieves sensitivity, helps restore gum health, and rehardens enamel. i'm a big advocate of recommending things that i know work. ♪♪ gillette presents... the gillettelabs with exfoliating bar. the bar in the handle removes unseen dirt and debris that gets in the way of the blades. for effortless shaving in one efficient stroke. all with a lifetime warranty. and if you want to keep the beard, use king c. gillette. a lineup of products designed to cleanse,

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kevin stick signed a law banning nearly all abortions with exceptions for rape and incest and in certain cases, the life of the mother. but the last, part saving the life of the mother's murky for doctors. it can be seen by anybody in oklahoma just for treating their patient. shortly after the law, passed a woman found out she was carrying an ectopic pregnancy. her fertilize a could implanted outside of her uterus, a life-threatening condition. when the obstetrician refused to treat, or the pregnant patient call the medical director and okla -- abortion clinic in oklahoma city. they sent it to the facility in kansas, where abortion is legal. by that time, though, her condition had deteriorated so much at a hospital had to terminate her breath and see. this is what can happen under abortion bans like oklahoma's. a pregnant person with no chance of saving the pregnancy has to fight for their right to live. to not die with a non viable

fetus. and that is why reproductive rights advocates filed a lawsuit last summer to challenge oklahoma's multiple abortion bans, including a now active zombie law from the year in 1910. one that makes performing any abortion a felony punishable by prison time, unless the same is necessary to preserve her life. this week the oklahoma supreme court weighed in, in a narrow 5 to 4 ruling the court said, yes, the state constitution creates an inherent right to abortion where the pregnant woman's life is threatened. the majority row, a woman has an inherent right to choose to terminate her pregnancy if at any point within the pregnancy the woman's physician has determined to a reasonable degree of medical certainty or probability that the continuation of the pregnancy will endanger the woman's life due to the pregnancy itself or a medical condition. okay. the court the ruling, the majority citing the state of constitution that says, all persons had the inherent right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness.

so on its, face it seems like a small victory for people who support abortion rights. but as always, the devil is in the detail. one of the defending justices wrote that balancing the life of the fetus and the mother is unnecessary and worthy dialogue for the people to -- another added, under some rare and terrible circumstances, peoples rights for life may conflict. how do we balance that? the justices defense beg the question if the state legislature does not specifically state that the right to life applies to women whose pregnancy might kill them, then must they simply forego treatment and die? as three justices wrote in a concurring opinion, in some instances, women may have fewer rights than a convicted murderer on death row. these women may be subject to a death sentence without being afforded process. imagine that. joining us now is caroline kitchener, the washington post reporter who has been covering the politics of abortion.

caroline, thank you for being here tonight. i was left i get your assessment of the legal argument that is being made here on the part of the defending judges. because it feels like a new frontier. really arguing that the life of the pregnant woman and the fetus she is carrying our equal. and it's unclear whose life should be saved in an extreme circumstance. >> i think the important part to take away,, alex of this ruling, it's not going to make doctors comfortable doing what they need to do to protect the health of the women they're serving. i talk to doctors. recently i talked to a doctor in a bad state that was just terrified. because they are seeing women come in with pregnancy complications. and they're having to and split seconds make that decision, is this dangerous enough. is this life-threatening enough. and i think that reading,

especially the way -- and a lot of what's in this ruling is going to be really concerning for doctors. one thing that really stood out to me is that, they're very particular with the language. it does not cover situations where there is a possibility that the mother's life could be in danger. speculation is not enough. it would have to be a reasonable chance. i think that when you are in there, in that hospital room, that's a really hard call to make for the doctor. >> because what we are talking about is this threshold in which, what's being litigated is the threshold at which a woman is -- how endangered her life actually is. and it's not just a possibility that going skeptical her, she actually has to be septic in order to get that abortion. and the line there seems to be incredibly confused. doctors, it sounds, like are reacting by just not wanting to

do it at all, in your reporting -- i would ask this more nationally, is the climate of fear pronounced enough that doctors are just saying, i am not getting involved in this at all? >> i think it varies. i've also spoken to doctors in that state to say, i committed a felony today. and they say that proudly. because they believe with every fiber of there being they are doing the right saying, even if that violating the law. and the steps they take is, hey, i am not going to go back on my medical oath. for this reason. and, you know what, i don't think -- got to people with a lot to lose. i think that is probably less common, the people who are out there saying proudly that they're committing felonies -- because a lot of doctors are extremely scared. they are scared of their licenses. they are scared for their livelihoods.

and i think this is going to be a really big thing to watch going forward. how they are forced to deal with this and how -- >> i know we are all awaiting a big ruling in texas and whether or not the fda can continue, or women can continue to access the drug -- as part of a two drug protocol from medication abortions. i have long been worried that a victory in getting this off the market could mean a very serious trouble for the other abortion bill, which is -- we have news out of wyoming that there is a bill that basically broadly outlaws using any medication for abortion. it does not mention specific drugs. but i wonder whether you think this is -- in just outlying all forms of medication abortion? >> i think it's really hard to say. that did come up during the hearing last week. i was in the courtroom in

amarillo -- there was some conversation. the judge was asking what about the other drug. and the plaintiffs could say, that is not the purpose of this law sue. i do think that it could come into play with these lawsuits because if one of the things you fair is -- mailing abortion pills -- that is not any specific one, it could become a lot harder to access either one of these. i think it is too early to say whether the approval -- is going to come into question a little bit harder because it is used for a lot of different things, not just abortions. i think the antiabortion movement may be -- that a bit more challenging. >> i think any moment where we're actively debating and court whether the value of a woman's life is superseded by that of her fetus, it means

everything is on the table in terms of restricting reproductive freedom. caroline kitchener, thank you so much for your reporting. we appreciate you tonight. >> thank you for having me. >> we have one more story for you tonight. what is a college professor to do when a student finds learning about civil light rights uncomfortable? in rhonda senses florida, the answer is, cancel class. that is next. that orders fresh beans for you. oh, genius! for more breakthroughs like that... ...i need a breakthrough card... like ours! with 2.5% cash back on purchases of $5,000 or more... plus unlimited 2% cash back on all other purchases! and with greater spending potential, sam can keep making smart ideas... ...a brilliant reality! the new ink business premier card from chase for business. make more of what's yours. research shows people remember ads with a catchy song. so to help you remember that liberty mutual customizes your home insurance, here's a little number you'll never forget. did you know that liberty mutual custo— ♪ liberty mutual. ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪ ♪ only pay for what you need. ♪

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one student. singular. and we don't know who the student wives or the exact context of the discussion, but what happened was the class was canceled under the umbrella of governor desantis's stop woke act, which specifically banned the teaching of any lesson, specifically about race and racism if the lesson makes any student feel discomfort. here is what that looks like in real life. >> the topic was civil rights. no specific beloved, just in general, as far as i'm aware. and so the teacher basically had to cancel this class of about 20 students in total because of the students discomfort. >> due to ongoing legal challenges, the stop woke act has not been implemented at florida colleges and universities yet. but confusion and concern already widespread as teachers from elementary to high school to college reevaluate the way

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