>> others across tonight we will see again tomorrow, now it is time for the last word with lawrence o'donnell. good evening lawrence. >> good evening, we are here at the last, weird starting off with andrew weissmann and neil -- joining us later is congressman dan goldman, also a lawyer and former federal prosecutor. former federal prosecutor is now a requirement to be a guest at this hour. >> we're just surrounded by lawyers all the time because it's indictment season, it appears. not just indictment watch. it's a potential season of indictments ahead of us. >> and since monday, since monday i have been dying to ask dan goldman about something that i heard on monday. you might remember this. it's when robert costello fights finds the manhattan

grand jury, dealer lawyer who said he had discussions with michael cohen at the very beginning of the stormy daniels controversy, and michael cohen said things to him that were very different from what he has been saying to the grand jury. and he was there to contradict michael cohen. and he said that he had told a number of people, apparently, about this difference. his view of michael cohen's testimony a while ago. and the very last night he mentioned all these names. the very last name one of the very last names he mentioned was dan goldman. he met with dan goldman monday and goldman was on the staff of a house committee, met with him about michael cohen and stormy daniels and that whole thing and so tonight is the night. >> tonight is the night. >> we get to ask dan goldman, what was that all about? >> i want to know. >> what did that guy mean? >> i want to know what other lawyers think. i would very much like to know what dan goldman has to tell you. >> that's what we're gonna find out in this hour. thank you alex. well don trump has made it through another day of his life without being indicted. it could be the last indictment

free day of donald trump's life. and trump supporters have made it through another day of their lives without protesting for donald trump as he requested and demanding that donald trump not be indicted. donald trump has made it through 76 years and nine months of his life. without ever being charged with a crime. most 76-year-olds, including most 76-year-olds who are career criminals, are past the point of worrying about being charged with crimes because they just don't feel like taking chances at 76. but donald trump has never learned to stop taking chances, especially legal chances. and that is why we are tracking two secretive legal processes tonight that could mean donald trump will be criminal defendant trump into different cases by the time he turns 77 on june 14th. the manhattan grand jury investigating donald trump's hush money to stephanie clifford, also known as stormy daniels, is scheduled to meet again tomorrow. and at this point anytime that grand jury meets could be the time that they vote on indictment of donald trump. and the next day, in washington, on friday, another grand jury will be meeting to hear testimony from one of donald trump's criminal defense lawyers, which will very likely be testimony against donald

trump. one of the reasons donald trump is in increasing legal peril is that he repeatedly chooses lawyers who do not know how to say no to donald trump. remember that michael cohen began his involvement in the stormy daniels story as donald trump's lawyer. and as donald trump's lawyer, michael cohen entered a criminal conspiracy with donald trump to spare pay off stormy daniels. that is why michael cohen was sentenced to three years in federal prison. michael cohen is now a witness against donald trump in the manhattan grand jury. donald trump famously said, in the middle of his presence, when he felt besieged by the mueller investigation, get me a roy cohen. roy cohn is still donald comes idea of the kind of lawyer he wants. roy cohn became famous in the 1950s as a completely unethical staff are working for a completely unethical republican senator named joe mccarthy. from that era forward, the term mccarthy-ism, named after joe mccarthy, meant a reckless,

lying, outburst by someone making personal accusations with no evidence. mccarthy-ism that became donald trump's own personal ideal throughout his life. it was ugly, but too many did not seem harmful to the country when before he became a politician donald trump was hurdling is mccarthy style invective at entertainers like rosy o'donnell. but then donald trump brought his joe mccarthy roy cohn operating style into politics and into the white house. and here is the most important thing about donald trump's continuing admiration of roy cohn, who was a mentor of donald trump's. by the time roy coon died, in 1986, he was a disgraced, disbarred lawyer, who had been charged with -- before he died roy cohen once said, don trump is my best friend. someone should have warned michael cohen that when donald trump says he wants a lawyer like roy cohn and you become donald trump's lawyer, there's a chance you might end up like roy cohn, disbarred and disgraced. as michael cohen is now. evan corcoran could be next.

to follow former trump lawyers, roy cohn and michael cohen into disbarment and disgrace, depending on how he testifies under oath to special prosecutor jack smith's grand jury in the washington heights. today jack smith won the right to pierce the attorney client privilege and questioning trump criminal defense attorney evan corcoran about the government documents and classified documents found, with an fbi search warrant, and on trump's home in florida, including the classified documents that the fbi found in donald trump's desk. few lawyers in history have more experience with the federal appeals process than our first guest tonight, neil capreol, who shared my all last night, the happy news, the breaking news of the time, but a three judge panel of the circuit court of appeals in washington was speeding an appeal on the question of evan corcoran's testimony through the appeals process with deadlines issued to the lawyers in the case not measured in weeks or days but in hours. last friday in, a field proceeding, the chief judge the federal district court in washington supervising jack smith's grand jury issued an order for every for evan corcoran to testify to that grand jury. trump lawyers appeal that order, and on tuesday the appeals court gave the trump lawyers a deadline of midnight for filing their brief. and jack smith was given a

deadline of six a. m. miss morning for filing his response this afternoon the appeals court ruled evan corcoran must testify to the grand jury because judge howell, who had issued the order, had found that evan corcoran's testimony is subject to the crime fraud exception to the attorney client privilege. now let's just stop right here and consider what happened in the judicial system between the close of business on friday and the federal district court in washington, and the close of business today, wednesday, in the federal federal district court of washington. we saw an appeal of district court judges order processed in less than three days. each party had to file their briefs two days after the district judge ruled in the case. the appeals court ruled on those filings on the same day that they were filed. we have seen that kind of process take the better part of a year in other federal cases. sometimes longer than that. the last three days have been the worst days of donald trump 's life as a delay producing litigant. delay, delay, delay has always been donald trump's legal strategy.

but it is not working this week. in the face and special prosecutor jack smith's aggressive demand for donald trump's criminal defense attorney to testify to jack smith's grand jury. abc news is reporting that judge howls order allows jack smith to question donald trump 's defense lawyer on six topics. topics indicate that smith has zeroed in on trump's actions surrounding his response to him 11th department of justice supreme a sub subpoenaed it's not all remaining classified documents in his possession, as key to donald trump's scheme they say to -- the says he will smith says he believes that trump during liberally misled his own attorneys about trump's retention of classified materials after leaving office. smic investigators specifically want to ask corcoran whether trump was aware of the statements in the certification, which claimed a diligent search

of mar-a-lago have been conducted, and if that trump approved of it being provided to the government. sources reveal years with the filings and corcoran was order to detail the steps he took to determine where documents responsive to the department of justices may subpoena may have been located. sources said. he also was ordered to provide testimony on why he believed all documents were with classification markings were held in mar-a-lago's storage held in mar-a-lago's storage room, as he had allegedlym hey bud. wow. what's all this?

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i screwed up. mhm. i got us t-mobile home internet. now cell phone users have priority over us. and your marriage survived that? you can almost feel the drag when people walk by with their phones. oh i can't hear you... you're froze--

ladies, please! you put it on airplane mode when you pass our house. i was trying to work. we're workin' it too. yeah! work it girl! woo! i want to hear you say it out loud. well, i could switch us to xfinity. those smiles. that's why i do what i do. >> nbc news is reporting that that and the paycheck.

manhattan district attorney alvin bragg plans to convene a grand jury tomorrow. when jury did not connect his regular wednesday session today. nbc news is also reporting that email communications from 2018, between actress stephanie clifford, also known as stormy daniels, and attorney joe tacopina, have been turned over to the manhattan district attorney.

joe tacopina is currently working for donald trump on the manhattan grand jury investigation. in 2018, when stormy daniels was shopping for a lawyer, she reportedly contacted joe tacopina. in a statement today to nbc news, joe tacopina said, never matter, never spoke to her, she tried to hire me by calling my office and spoke to a paralegal. but i never spoke to her or took her case. contradicting joe tacopina today on that point is joe tacopina in 2018. >> before being represented by -- stormy approached you about representation. did you get the impression she might have found you under the da in which she afraid of are physical safety? >> of course. i can't really talk about my impressions because there is a client attorney privilege detached evil consultation. >> done in 2018 the criminal defense lawyer seem to defend the theory of the case that trump's payoffs to stormy daniels could be criminal. >> where the money come from? if it leads back to the trump campaign funding, that's a big

problem. this is a pandora's box that's going to be opened, and unfortunately it is not going to have any good results for the presidents. >> andrew weissmann is back with us and joining our discussion is charles coleman, former senior assistant district attorney for brooklyn, new york, he is now a civil rights attorney and an msnbc legal analyst. and charles, we are leaning heavily this week on your experience as the senior assistant district attorney in brooklyn. we need that local district attorney expertise for what we are looking at here. what do you make of the pause in today's granary session? no grand jury session but reportedly is sessions scheduled for tomorrow? >> i wouldn't look too much into it and i don't think that we should focus on it entirely too much more than what we have already heard. there could be a number of different reasons why the grand jury did not meet today. sometimes there are scheduling issues with other and other reasons why the da's office or the prosecutor may have agreed

not to have the grand jury convened. this grand jury was meeting already on mondays and wednesdays, and so it could've been of the 23 grand jurors, a substantial number who are unable to attend today for various reasons. they knew that in advance of the decided not to meet today but convene tomorrow. so i would not read into this too much. it is not necessarily that unusual, and they will meet tomorrow, where i suspect alvin black brags assistance will put the case before the grand jury in an attempt to secure an indictment. >> andrew weissmann, robert costello is taking advice for what he perceives as a delay in the grand jury proceedings. robert costello is that attorney who testified at the grand jury on monday, saying that michael cohen told him, back at the beginning of all of this, that donald trump was not involved in the payoffs to stormy daniels and robert costello said today, i threw a wrench into their monkey works. do you think that's the explanation? >> now.

i don't. and the reason i don't is, one, we're dealing with a really sophisticated smart group of prosecutors, and there's just no way that they hadn't thought through those issues. also there's nothing that mr. costello's said that is inconsistent or different than what michael cohen may have told both the prosecutors in the grand jury. in other words, it's not unusual for a defendant to lie to his criminal defense lawyer. that just happens all the time in that business. it's commonplace. in fact, mr. costello has been reported to have said just that, and so that wouldn't be that surprising at all. and then mr. costello, his impartiality is something that could be questioned. i thought it was unusual that he said i'm saying things to the grand jury that michael cohen has not told them and that the grand juries don't jurors don't know. that struck me as an odd statement to make, because

there is no way that he could know exactly what michael cohen who said to the grand jury or what the grand jury knows. and so i thought he would was very sloppy end cavalier in terms of his accusations. to be fair, as we talked about last night, it's very useful for the da to have this information. and if there is some information that is inconsistent or new to the da, it gives them an opportunity to track it down and to figure out if it's really important or not to the case. i don't believe that it is likely to be a reason for why the grand jury wasn't sitting today. >> and charles goldman, alvin bragg is the one district

attorney we know of in america who considered evidence for a prosecution of donald trump and rejected it. he said not good enough, it's not there. we're not going to make that case. so we know that he is capable of saying no to a prosecution of donald trump if he doesn't think the evidence is there. >> we do, lawrence. and the question really, for me, is not necessarily whether he's capable of saying no, but it's why he said yes. as you've already talked about, he's looked at this case before, he looked at the legal theory of taking what is a -- out of new york state law and then trying to turn it into a felony by looking at the campaign finance violations that formed a sinkhole around this matter, and he decided not to deal with it. so much so that it drew the ire of some of his assistants, who then decided to resign from his office. the question that iron many former prosecutors have been asking is, what has changed from that point to now, when you are talking about, potentially, the same legal theory that you did not receive

before, that you -- i will be very honest and candid, although it is unpopular in many people may not necessarily want to hear it, this is somewhat of a continuous legal theory to move on in terms of moving that misdemeanor over to the felony. it's an untested case of suppression in many respects. but i do wonder why alvin bragg has decided to move forward now an illegal theory that he was not comfortable moving forward on when he first encountered it. >> go ahead, andrew. >> i didn't say anything, but i can i actually think that charles is correct if that is what alvin bragg does. i think the one thing that we need to do right now is just wait and see what exactly, if anything, he charges, and what his theory is. but there certainly are some things that he could do that would be novel. they would be tested by the defense that, fans would have a right to do and should do. but there are others that my may be straightforward.

for instance, the sort of simple misdemeanor of filing a false business record seems like an incredibly clean charge with very few legal issues, and frankly a very strong -- where michael cohen can say it but in fact there's so much corroboration that we know of that it seems like a very strong case. >> and are weisman, and charles coleman, thank you both very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. the >> manhattan district attorney responded to the chairman inviting alvin bragg to testify to their committees. that's next. with congressman daniel goldman. >> and are weisman, and charles coleman, thank you both very much for joining us tonight.

>> thank you. the >> manhattan district attorney responded to the chairman inviting alvin bragg to testify to their committees. that's next. with congressman daniel goldman. goldman. awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪

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by attempts to undermine the justice process. that was issued by alvin bragg 's office, which appears to be

in response to a letter sent to mr. black by house republican chairman requesting his testimony about his ongoing investigation of donald trump. alvin bragg himself did not bother to respond to that letter in any way. because it's surely the single most absurd letter alvin bragg has ever received from a government official. but he did allow a spokesperson for the district attorney's office to put out that written statement. republicans are attacking alvin bragg, as he knew he would be attacked. they all insult and demean alvin bragg as a tool of george soros. today, the nbc reporter that george soros has never met or spoken to allen brag. joining us now is democratic congressman daniel goldman of new york. he's a member of the homeland security committee, the oversight committee, and the select subcommittee on the operations of the federal government. thank you very much for joining us tonight. you have been -- your service as a prosecutor you have some sense of what the people working and alvin bragg 's office are going through

now. but this is clearly going to be the single most attacked, criticized, district attorney's office possibly in history. >> well, that's true. but even if you assume that to be the case, it's still quite remarkable what house republicans are doing before we have an indictment, before we know what the evidence is. and the aggressive nature of jim jordan, james comer, and bryan steil to ascend an inflammatory and accusatory letter to alvin bragg, without knowing the facts, without knowing the evidence, making all sorts of outlandish accusations. really undermines the rule of law. there is a process here and our criminal justice system for a defendant, potentially donald trump, to challenge any case against him. and of course, we know that 12 jurors must unanimously convict a defendant beyond a reasonable doubt. so, there are many avenues within our system of the rule of law for this case to be challenged, if in fact there are problems with it. but having congress try to intervene and interfere and potentially even obstruct an

ongoing investigation at the state level, not even at the federal level, is really beyond the pale and far outside our jurisdiction. >> but of course, there is no chance of them having any effect on alvin bragg. they didn't subpoena him, they just said, you, know we would like you to testify. he obviously won't. he obviously won't respond. and i believe he wouldn't responded anyway to receiving a subpoena from them. >> well, he should not. even the department of justice, which congress does have oversight authority over, would not give any information on ongoing investigations or prosecutions. that is fundamental to the separation of powers. this now is even further removed. this is a state district attorney, state prosecutors

office. so, congress has no jurisdiction. and they're digging as much as they possibly can to create some possible legislative purposes that you need in over for congress to have jurisdiction. but it's clearly just an effort for them to put one man over the rule of law. and as our second president, john adams, has said, our country is based on the rule of law, which means we are a government of laws, not man. and sadly, my republican colleagues seem to think the opposite. >> we have to squeeze in a commercial break here. when we come, back i want to ask you about what robert costello said about you, named you when he came out of the manhattan grand jury on monday, when he went in there trying to testify in a way that would help donald trump. we'll play for you what he said about you, and get your response. we'll have more with congressman dan goldman, that is next.

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represent him in the stormy daniels case. and michael cohen told him that he paid off stormy daniels on his own without involving donald trump. here is attorney robert costello after he testified to the manhattan grand jury monday, claiming he contradicted michael cohen's testimony to that grandeur. >> and i listen to michael cohen standard from the courthouse and say things that are directly contrary to what he said to us. my obligation is to bring the truth to both the district attorney and to trump's lawyers. that's exactly what i did. i sent of all of this material that i talked about before. i have 330 emails in chronological order. i have a memo of a contemporaneous memo of the first meeting at the regency hotel. i have a memo of the two hour meeting i had to assistant united states attorneys and two fbi agents in april of 2019. but i have a memo of a meeting that i had in may of 2019, with

the house intelligence committee. through their staffers, one of whom was named dolan, who is now congressman. >> congressman dan goldman, what is he talking about? >>, while he's not talking about michael cohen, i can tell you that much. that was on an unrelated matter. and as an aside, i did not find mr. costello himself to be very credible. but he's talking about conversations that he had with michael cohen soon after cohen was, his office and home were searched. and my recollection is that cohen had enlisted costello because costello had a good relationship with rudy giuliani. and michael cohen wanted a pardon from donald trump, and was toeing the line, the trump line as a good soldier that he was at the time to try to get that pardon. one that did not happen, obviously, michael cohen came clean. and admitted that, in fact, that donald trump had instructed him to pay the hush money to stormy daniels. and if there was any doubt about that, there's a recording. so, you know, this is not, this doesn't really seem to impact the case one way or another. because these conversations between cohen and costello happened well before michael cohen pleaded guilty to this

charge and admitted, ultimately, what happened. >> so, let me get the straight. he -- he said this, what we did some say, was outside the grand jury on monday. and he mentions a conversation with dan goldman, who's now a congressman. and you're telling us that the conversation he mentioned had absolutely nothing to do with this case? >> right, and it's not -- it's pretty unusual for investigators to interview lawyers. normally, the lawyers are representing somebody that the investigators are interviewing. but in that case, we were interviewing mr. costello himself. about unrelated -- i should not say it's unrelated, but it was related to mr. costello's efforts to secure pardons for various people, including potentially michael cohen. but that'll predated, of course, when michael cohen pled guilty and admitted to lying to the house intelligence committee.

so, it's not a surprise that he also lied at the time to keep his story straight to his own attorney. that's what's relevant here. >> based on what you know about the evidence in this case, the grand jury's hearing in manhattan now, what do you think will be the key elements but that they would focus on at this stage? >> look, we know some of the facts. we don't know all the facts. we know there is a recording of michael cohen and donald trump talking about this hush money payment. we know that happened three weeks before the election, right after the access hollywood tape came out and

donald trump received a lot of blow back. we know that he was repaid through the trump organization in a false way by claiming that it was legal services, one of course it was. not, so the facts of this are pretty plain. the question i think the manhattan da's grappling with, and has to grapple with, is how does this fact pattern fit in with the state law? but we need to let the state process play out, lawrence. i can't of the size this enough, donald trump is a former president, but he's also citizen of the united states. and if we truly are a country where no one is above the law, then he should be treated as everyone else is. he can defend himself in his

case, in court, and as every american needs to. >> congressman daniel goldman, thank you very much for joining us tonight, and solving the cold mystery that emerged after that grand jury testimony by costello on monday. thank you very much for joining us. >> thanks, lawrence. >> we'll be right back. 12 hours of relief from chest congestion and any type of cough, day or night. it's not cough season. it's always comeback season. (fisher investments) in this market, you'll find fisher investments it's not cough season. is different than other money managers. (other money manager) different how? aren't we all just looking for the hottest stocks? (fisher investments) nope. we use diversified strategies to position our client's portfolios for their long-term goals. (other money manager) but you still sell investments that generate high commissions for you, right? (fisher investments) no, we don't sell commission products. we're a fiduciary, obligated to act in our client's best interest. (other money manager) so when do you make more money, only when your clients make more money? (fisher investments) yep. we do better when our clients do better. at fisher investments, we're clearly different. moderate-to-severe eczema. it doesn't care if you have a date,... ...a day off,...

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tonight's the last word. the 11th hour with stephanie ruhle starts now. >> tonight, the significant developments in the mar-a-lago classified documents investigation. and, now the former president's lawyer has to turn over a trove of elated evidence.