he paycheck. thank you for spending this wednesday with us. i'll be back with you friday. "the beat" with ari melber start right now. hey, ari, any big legal news you're following? >> you know, this and that, alicia. we'll see you out here. thanks for pulling the extra hours. >> you got it. >> welcome the "the beat." we are following big legal news. i'm ari melber. let me start like this. one day later, and donald trump's prediction of his own indictment and arrest has not occurred, which is why we've always followed the facts and evidence in this still quite hot escalating legal story. we don't follow the claims, the predictions or self-serving pronouncements. whatever drove trump to claim, he knew what was coming was not, as of tonight, the whole entire

accurate picture. tonight we have new reporting that the grand jury investigating trump did not meet at all today. this is one of thechh i wouldn't call this giant breaking news, but it's interesting because we're tracking every piece of this. nbc news reporting according to new sources the grand jury will be back in session tomorrow, and it may hear from at least one more witness before1e+■ being a to vote. that detail courtesy of "the new york times." so we didn't get any new witnesses today, and obviously if they didn't meet, no kind of votes today. the d.a. is clearly continuing to work on his time line. if you put to the side the speculation, here's what did happen at the start of this week, because even without the indictment that donald trump proclaimed was coming, we can see a lot of things happening.

there's a reason the whole country and really pockets of other parts of the whole world, are now watching to see whether donald trump is indicted. so here it is. this week, the grand jury heard from the kind of rebuttal witness that signals this process is near its conclusion, whether that is days or weeks. that witness then went public with that harsh and at times unprofessional attack on a key witness, michael cohen. cohen's council says he'll be stepping back from tv interviews. in this case, which has been kicking around since 2018 is coming back into more view with more details and characters who are flushed out of the open, and that's because0ç9÷1■ it clear t trump thinks, whatever the risk of rehashing all this -- and remember, he went to great lengths to keep all this secret. he paid money to mr. cohen to keep all this secret. whatever the risk of rehashing in public and bringing these people out on his behalf, he

feels is lower than the risk of not trying to take one final attack on a process that he does still maintain will lead to his indictment. >> she's the woman whose name is splashed across headlines all over the world.ñvtt >> you know, none of this bodes well for the president. i have been saying that for a long time. >> we have breaking news just now. former president donald trump posting on truth social that he will be arrested tuesday. >> hoping to create fear there will be another january 6th type event. >> anticipation is incredibly high. will a grand jury decide to indict former president donald trump in. >> my only mission there today was to tell the truth about what michael cohen was saying at any point in time. >> okay, so very much like most of everything that came out of his mouth, he lacks any sense of veracity here.

>> -- public officials all the time in this country, and under the law there's nothing magical about being a former president. >> nbc news confirmed the grand jury that's been investigating the payment not meet today. >> there we are, all the way up to the most recent hour of msnbc. trump tried to start take control of the time line, that has already failed. the he thought he'd spark a major uprising or worse in the protest of a january 6th gathering that did turn violent, he failed. so far there have been few people in the street. everyone has a right to speak or criticize any of this process wherever they peacefully meet, but even that has been lackluster, and that is true as well on trump's chosen day of tuesday. indeed, there was interest in new york, florida, around the country. there just weren't big gatherings. by doing that before any such indictment or arrest, he also, donald trump, brought out a fissure within his party,

because the highest ranking republican in government, someone with actual power, told supporters to stay home.nüw so, you take it all together as we show you where we're gotten -- the grand jury is continuing to meet on its time line. it is doing its process, hearing including from trump ally witnesses as part of the fact gathering for those grand jurors. if and when there's an indictment, what do we know? well, in a way, donald trump with regard to the pr and protest as he put them, he's already played himself. we know the day this actually comes, if it looks anything like tuesday, for the people wh"dm believe whatf5e■ donald trump 3 who do what donald trump says, those people showed us what their reaction was on tuesday, not much yet.. i want to bring in neal katyal, i t ??yñ lqñ i walk through that because what we do in law and journalism is note certain things, right?

we note that someone said something that may be untrue. we add a fact to it, and then we have to move forward, almost washing our hands or in this case, washing my proverbial brain of whatever that informational garbage was. so we're trying to keep an eye, with your help tonight, with j»[@$l i don't think they have hundreds of witnesses left, but your thoughts on the facts here? >> i think, x9 surprising said something that was untrue, utáqpv thate that doesn't mean an indictment now is not going to happen. i suspect looking at the tea leaves it look like things are heading toward on indictment and the question is timing and what now, to b%iñ-b sure, the grand was scheduled to meet today. in general they meet on

wednesdays, but they didn't today. you can read into that something as mundane as a scheduling conflict. one of the juror his to bring their kid to school or something like that. or it could be something more significant like the grand jury has evidence that might have to hear or new arguments, new legal arguments that the prosecutors want to given what the news is that we're reporting now, that the grand jury is meeting tomorrow, it feels like this is a mundane scheduling thing and not much else, and so i expect this to move toward a conclusion pretty soon. >> asha, what do you see in what we know about the witnesses? because they have had others in there. they had mr. cohen in there. costello we'll get to, and they say now they may have one or some small number left. >> well, ari, the manhattan d.a.'s office had to have %-phow/x%g

mtq me to imagine -- i mean, it's possible, but that at this 11th hour it would get derailed by some new witness. it may be as neal said they need to now present something else, or they might be changing their legal theory. it's not clear what they may have heard from costello, but seems it's been proceeding a pace, and we have been thrown off by trump's statement he was going to be arrested on tuesday, and we have to remember, he is wpa we have to remember, he is >> that makes sense. we mentioned bob costello. he's a trump ally, appeared at ñ then >>< /

cun against trump, so he sat'3 and= agreement for $130,000. well, he went to jail, and now he's on the revenge tour. >> that's mr. costello. we reported on that. today he put out a statement where they claims he has thrown ó i)"ñv wrench into the $j[s. he has theories about the grand jury. he is of course a witness among many. he doesn't have any other larger ere.oesn't have any other larger as for mr. cohen, wezjxk?%fc%6 lawyer, as he michael not do to anymore tv appearances until further notices. neal, costello in his statement refers to things michael cohen tolu6s■me. i don't think we necessarily need to go deep into those

weeds. he didn't waive attorney7oq■ privilege. ir the mosteg8 important fact abou michael cohen is he went to jail already for the same allegations

more -- the only things we know

whatn■ç■ cohen and others have , come talk it through. he also says he has documents. let's see them. seems to some x8(gowwpirv■degres not everymç!ubstem is exactly t same throughout our 50 states and many other localities. i'm curious what you think the d.a. will do here to the extent that they heard,7>k nf,]zé e■s said'y ó

statement that you heard from there's a lot coming up in the program. tucker carlson on defense for admitting in secret he hates trump. he has a new response. mar-a-lago is a place where

donald trump deejays while musing about his arrest. how to fundraise off it. n it's a wild "the new york timess story. but illifirst, an expert o' actuals new york charge trump could face when we're back in 60 seconds. rdf th e lease! i'm not a hat-person. yeah, no. emperor of the rentalverse. that's funny. no. rentaur the trusted. ...i don't like it. oh. ok. master of the rentalsphere. wow! oh, is it too much? apartments.com the place to find a place.

the work never stopped, and we're going to continue to do that, and there may be -- i don't know and want to get ahead of the facts -- but there may be other moments we can report outb publicly.jzt/

&qu$e case right onyo59ueeuw "4rj9eü @&h(lc% "4rj9eü @&h(lc% >> sixuzyy years later for som%/ q that when we paid hush money to cover something up when john edwards did&csrx i .z0dáhis is going)ç >> that's one view of the case, and some of this may all sound

quite dry, but let's be clear according to the wall. the charges would not be any kind of outlier.bx,gd false business recordx/+ow?lo t areé/w the bread and/$xo new york d.a.'s office. that's how "the times" put it together, and that's exactly what a veteran of the d.a.'s ■ this "times" #o=q u##fw insurrection to argue down other bad things they may á when you,ét7u$is d>

bread and butte).suú÷ íwhe bread as"■áq starn as a ■ at;l new york diner. now, let's put the food analogies on the side, if you are on the east coast getting ready for dinner i hope i haven't made you too hungry. since bragg took office, prosecutor there is filed 117 felony counts of this exact charge over the last year. bread and butter. we want to go to the source. dan horowitz a former assistant d.a. focusing on white collarvñ% crimes. also■ servedc)ut on theje@ñ tra team for manhattan district attorney alvin bragg. thanks for being here. >> thanks for having me. >> you are one of the most experienced skilled people to discuss exactly this, so i'm glad you're hear tonight. >> that's what my kids think, too. >> your kids agree with the bar. i don't know how informed they are as legal experts, but that's

great. you look at this, do you agree with what others have said? >> i do. i do. and i was in that office for almost ten years prosecuting complex white color cases, and you indicated the stats under d.a. bragg. i brought manyo

when you bring a case like this, what kind of evidence do you particularly have? >> well, you have witnessesl1+\ú you need records to show that

the entries were false and you need witnesses to explain that, so you need somebody to talk about how does the business operate? what do we put in your books and records ordinarily, and you need evidence to show why those entries for false and you also need somebody or witnesses and evidence to link to that other crime. bo kgzd■ yoe bé's say that you put 100,000 plus towards your átju5kmóz something, and all6

you have to link the evidence of the false record and intent to commit the other crime. >> i'm asking you, how strong is that defense? >> under the circumstances from what i've seen in the case, y÷i>■égkv> is thataó >> that is a common defense, executives. >> is it strong or weak omh medium? >> it is strong? depends on the witnesses and the evidence. >> how about in this case? >> i would say in this case, i think that under the circumstances from what we know hypothetically about the person stf■--çm#, involved in the operations of their organization. a small organization with a

limited number of people. >> so it's weak to say i had no idea. >> i would say that it is not a particularly compelling -- >> okay, that is defense number one. in all seriousness, someone in a large kpan where there's things going on might be able to remove himself. it's not, oh, there's a lighting bill. it's their own life, and they were involved and paid it back. let me bring to you number two. that's one defense. another defense is -- and i mentioned, we tried to hear from everybody. donald trump's new york lawyer, u misleading, it's notacú; real% a good enough business record for you to use back when you were doing these kinds of cases. you're already smiling. >> i don't even know what that means. >> what do you mean it's not a good business record? >> i'll show you.x1gu he says if it's personal and private and not really business it's like writing something down. like you bought a horse. take a listen.

>> okay. >> even if you put your checkbook. i'll use me. i bought a car and i wrote, purchased a horse -- that's inaccurate. that's a lie maybe. but there's no crime there. because this filing was not for the purpose of influencing an election. to me, ifz$2)■ they're pursuing matter, it's weaponizing the justice system to keep this guy out of office. >> he says it's like a checkbook private note, not a business record you could charge. >> i couldn't disagree more strongly with joe tacopina on this. it's a business check. you're writing a check for a company. that is a business record, and there is hundred of years of law that say that. ■j÷içñ/ ■j÷içñ/ ot% that have similar statutes. this isn't a question. >> sounds like you think -- i don't want put words in your mouth. sounds like you think that

or beneath discussion. >> i think it's laughable. >> laughable, because if paying for something in your business isn't a business record then what is a business record? >> i think the first defense, as i said a minute ago, it is a common defense for defense lawyers representing executives, and you said it yourself, in a large company, there's a lot that goes on. people get cc'd on email chains. that's not the organization we're talking about, which is why i think that particular defense is not so compelling under the circumstances. >> you know what sean carter, jay-z said. >> what's that. >> do you know? >> i do not. >> i'm not a businessman. 8v my business. and if you are the business, you're the business, you are trump org, i think you're going to have legally a harder timeúéñ disassociatingcñ@s yourself fro your business records, man. >> couldn't agree more. >> i appreciate you coming on, because you're one of the real experts on this. we go to the experts hope you

come back. >> thank you for having me. we have a lot more coming up, including a judge ruling against basically the lawyer who is trying to help donald trump out of the classified documents scam. now there may be tapes. and trump's lawyer say he's so far disconnect he's dee jag off his spotify play list in mar-a-lago. everything i said is just true in "the new york times." we'll explain with some very special guests next.

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the pebble indictment of a former president is big news, and that former president hyped his own arrest which did not come. now "the new york times" are putting this story, still important, but below the fold, an ion the development will be huge if and when it comes, but it's not "the new york times" stop story. i mention that because several stories on this prospect today, including this one with a remarkable lead read, quote, donald trump claims he's ready for his perp walk. it draws on accounts that trump is telling people he welcomes the idea of being paraded for a perp walk and is mulling whether he should style -- smile, i should say, in his own style, and how to brand any commotion when that day comes, if it comes. now, legally in new york, a perp walk sun likely under standard

procedure if the arraignment is cooperative. brace after decades of legal problems from criminal investigations that date back to the '70s, clashes with the irs and other regulators. the infamous lawyer roy cohn. of course his clashes wts doj as president. so there's a lot to choose from. now "the new york times" article also details recent scenes at mar-a-lago to reinforce reporting that trump seems significantly disconnected from the severity of his woes. "times" reports on a recent evening where trump acted as deejay with his spotify play list. known favorites include the rolling stones and phantom of the opera. the fact is, donald trump wouldn't be the first deejay trying to rock the crowd while eyeing trouble with the law. but a larger point according to his aides is he's gotten away so

many times that he may not understand getting indicted criminally would be different, at least at the start of the process, than all those other times. he's also getting his fans to supporters to try to send him money based on the potential indictment and casting this as a branding opportunity, according to reporters. when we look at all the aspects we're thrilled to bring back barbara rez. she is a tried and true new yorker. we are also joined by watergate prosecutor nick akerman. welcome to both of you. >> thank you. >> thank you. >> barbara, he's talking about his perp walk, which may or may not happen with his aides, and he wants to, quote, brand this. what do you see here? >> well, typical donald trump, he takes lemons and turns them into lemonade. >> can this become lemonade? >> from his point of view, absolutely. he's got this "look at me, i don't take any crap".

i'll stand up to this guy. yes, my supporters know that i'm not guilty. to be honest with you, i think he sort of doesn't believe that it's happening, or it's happening but he doesn't believe he is going to get hurt. >> you think he's in denial? >> it's kind of a denial. it's this thing -- ever since i've known him -- >> he believes in the power of positive thinking. kids nowadays call it manifesting, believe it will come. >> he doesn't think he's going to be -- he probably acknowledges he's going to be indicted but doesn't think he's going to be convicted. >> one more question on the image of that before i bring in nick. there are certain things that are harder to spin ind6su ]p]ú certain÷éá]mcb■r2=$=rudñ t% trump in business, in

trump in buse the big enough ò0 apñ%0■ crisis where you lose control, you're out of your own control, it's very hard to look, and i think nick will speak to this next. it's ve7ñtl6 hard to look like you're powerful and in control when your literal liberty is at the control of to some degree the prosecutors in the pretrial period and then ultimately a jury of your peers. you think he knows how to brand that? >> yeah, he's already done it. i've got the best lawyers. this is a witch-hunt. it's politically motivated. of course i'm not guilty. and i won't be found guilty. that's the way he's treating it. it's not real, it's not fruition./6 hk■w=vs ■ that will- he's not responsible.v> >> and emotionally, do you think

he'll be fine through this because it will be like so many other things he's clearly found his way vd77%through? there are people who could have gotten more panicked and stressed by things he's up against than him. >> i read something, he's always afraid of being arrested and he's really afraid. i only felt afraid once in my life. >> when was that? e8$k presidential bankruptcy in the early '90s when everything fell apart. he was afraid. i can't imagine him being afraid. >> how did he act when he was afraid? >> quiet. >> i don't understand. i haven't seen him quiet. >> well, he had this filmmaker guy -- and he let him know and listened to him and didn't contradict him. >> really, so you saw deference you never usually saw. before i bring in nick as well, i forgot to ask you, "the times" says he's dee yaying rolling

stones, phantom of the opera. does that ring true to you? >> i'll tell you something funny. -- is playing at the plaza once, and trump must have gotten wind of it. he was in his limo with the win dose down. he has no idea who axle rose is or who guns is roses was. >> he picked it up. nick, your thoughts? playing "jailhouse rescue." >> look at this guy. >> i love it. >> this is serious. it's not just the indictment in new york. we're also talking about the indictment in georgia, which is going to be a whole different level in terms of criminality. >> and you think that could be coming. we'll put on the screen. there's several you can walk us through. >> i think it's going to be coming mid april. what we didn't realize before and what i didn't, is when the

special grand jury came down, it was really right in the middle of when fulton county had its two sitting grand juries in session, and the regular grand juries didn't start again until march 1st. so the d.a. in fulton county really didn't have an opportunity to present until starting on march 1st. so it takes some time to put in this evidence and to educate a regular jury of all the facts found by the special grand jury. >> as we told folks, you faced off against richard nixon. he had his appeal, the silent majority, attacks on the press like trump did. similar in some ways different in others. when you've seen some of the public following try to, as we said, brand this process, how long that/ev> it didn't work very well for richard nixon. in the end it was his closest supporters that showed up in the oval office led by barry goldwater. >> yeah, the branding efforts

failed. i want to show you on the serious legal side what we did here. you mentioned the georgia case. this is the fist time one of trump's georgia lawyers came on msnbc and made his defense. this was last night. i have several pieces. wanted to get your legal analysis. let's take a look. >> we became public when we heard from the foreperson. she kind of gave us a lens into what we were suspicious of, which is just a kind of a clown show in there. >> was it, "a," illegal, and "b," wrong,?r for him to try to steal the georgia results after the state had beenpç0k+y dually certified. >> ourbuuw client6g;$xshpañ/sé- law. >> do you acknowledge trump lost georgia? >> i am not going to start getting into political statements. >> but do you acknowledge that donald trump sflos. >> that's what i stay focused

on. >> do you acknowledge donald trump lost the georgia election? that's an easy one. do you acknowledge that, drew? >> no. no. >> nick? >> first of all, the idea that there was anything wrong with that special grand jury or with what emily coors said to the press is totally off base and totally wrong. she was supported by judge mcbernie, who is the presiding judge who basically -- when she was talking to the press, she was reading from the rules that judge mcbernie said, what she had to say. she stuck to those rules and she made it quite clear she kept an open mind. she refused to listen to press reports about this during that time. in terms of whether donald trump did anything wrong, right from the get go he was lying, both to the secretary of state brad raffensperger about the fact that he claims there was election fraud because dead people voted --

>> do you think a lawyer can speak to the results or is that, quote, political? >> no, of course, that's what he's got to argue to an injury. he's got to come up with a way to get around the fact that his client lie about the whole series of events. >> and lied in a way that induced fraud. i did want to get you on that since we were here. barbara, we are bagels. what is the best place to get a new york bagel? >> oh, god, across from the pier. >> h&h. >> there you go. >> you asked the wrong person. >> maybe you came there together. h&h? >> yes. >> you want it crispy on the outside, and doughy in the middle. >> there's a good place in the upper west side, too. it's excellent. can't remember. >> we'll ask our folks online on social media by the end of the show. barbara, nick, on everything including the bagels, thank you. coming up, tapes inside the

document case. and tucker carlson privately secretly musing about how he hates trump, and now he has a spin for it, but will it work? and what will happen in that billion dollar case about lies. there's a lot more coming up. stay with us. scotts daylawn saving is the biggest deal of the year. stock up early and save up to $20 dollars on the best scotts products.

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may have also dealt with lies. basically that trump lied to cochran or cochran was part of q misleading the government through, you guessed it, one more lawyer. abc news reports the special counsel had compelling evidence that donald trump was u deliberately misleading his own attorneys. the judge writes the doj showed that the former president committed criminal violations or at least enough evidence of that to pierce the privilege. meanwhile, on the trump side, they're saying the report itself is false and, quote, illegally leaked. the big news is a judge that's independent, separate from a prosecutor,e1 ruling against trp here. we may learn a lot more soon who lied to who, why a whether there are crimes. now, when we come back, i'm not kidding, we're going to get into the bagels in - stay with me. use it to set and track your goals, big and small... and see how changes you make today... could help put them within reach. from your first big move to retiring poolside

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now their coming after him for some alleged bookkeeping error? you've got to be kidding me.

>> legally this case is absurd on its face. >> they're making stuff up that they never used against anybody because they hate trump.t(e1 that's what this is. >> there you have it, that's the claim. they've never used any of this before. that was senatorok lindsey grah. but he and some of the voices you just saw have not exactly practiced law ort( served in th new york/t d.a.'s office. tonight we heard from a veteran "the new york times" independently reporting over 100 cases involved this exact business records felony charge since d.a.-bragg took over just the last year or so.t( historically, we have heard from multiple people in the office >hfis is a standard case. any'@e charge aree1 legally presumed innocent. the attack we heard so much, this doesn't usually get brought, that wase1 shredded repeated will by the numbers and some of the experts we heard from. now before i end the hour, i want to show something that was

a great littlee1 moment that ca naturally, unplanned as we discussed. politics, if you will of new york bagels. this happened tonight. i did want to get you on that since you are here. barbara, new yorke1 bagels. what is thee1 best place to get new york bagel? >> of course. >> h & h. >> thereçó you go. you askedt( the wrong person. >> well, maybe you guys can do it together. h & h? h & h barbara and nick talking about their idea for the best o% bagel. this is a big question. i can tell you i'm already hearing from people just in our break, john flannery, another lawyer with bagel opinions wrote in toq talk about zabars. where i grew up inlp seattle, a friendw3 of mine, mr. e1pitell travels to new york and goes around the different places to taste and ponder what the best bagel is.e1 i ask you tonight whether you've been to new york or ever want to

"the reidout" with joy reid starts now. ♪♪ tonighti] on "the reidout" >> did mr. trump know about thir reimbursement method? >> oh, he knew about everything, yes. >> thank you, mr. cohen. so the president not only knew about theçó payments, he knew a helped to hide the payments and the reimbursement to you? >> we discussed it. everything had to go through mr. tq more than four years after michael cohen made those