hi, everyone, it is 4:00 in new york, the criminal probes with donald trump's conduct, before, during and after he was president of the united states. let's start with the news in the manhattan d.a.'s probe in hush money payments made to adult film star stormy daniels.

nbc news has confirmed that the grand jury that has been investigating the payments did not meet today. it could reconvene storm. there are also questions surrounding one of donald trump's attorneys today. we're going to get to all of that later in the program. we turn to a high stakes clash between donald trump's attorneys and the justice department that is unfolding right now involving a d.c. appeals court. what happens there could have major consequences for the federal probe looking into donald trump's handling of classified documents, and some of the country's most sensitive intelligence secrets at his residence at mar-a-lago. at the heart of the legal battle is trump attorney evan corcoran. the justice department has been trying to get a federal judge to force corcoran to break attorney/client privilege and testify before a grand jury about the work he's done for trump. his testimony could be key to one of the biggest issues in the probe. "the new york times" notes, subjects at the justice department has been examining since last year, mr. trump or his associates obstruct the

justice by failing to comply with repeated demands to return a trove of government materials he took with him from the white house upon leaving office. a federal judge sided with doj from that reporting. prosecutors in the special council's office have compelling preliminary evidence that donald trump knowingly and deliberately misled his own attorneys about retention of classified materials after leaving office. top federal judge ruled friday in a sealed filing. according to sources who described its contents to abc news. u.s. judge barrel howell wrote last week that prosecutors and special counsel jack smith's office had made a prima fascia showing that the former president had committed criminal violations, according to the sources, attorney/client privileges invoked by two lawyers could be pierced. nbc news has not independently confirmed this reporting. what we know right now about judge howell's ruling, which is

under seal, amounts to a bomb shell, and a big win for special council jack smith's office, which appears to be arguing that they have evidence donald trump committed crimes. but there's more. political reports for the d.c. circuit court of appeal, howell ordered temporarily on tuesday night, ordering an extraordinarily rapid series of filings in a matter of hours, including one from trump's team by midnight tuesday. news of the appeals court's decision on whether trump's attorney has to provide documents and testimony to the special counsel could come at any moment. joining us now, "washington post" investigators reporter jackie alemany, former republican congressman, david jolly, and andrew weissmann, justice department prosecutor, and senior member of robert mueller's special counsel investigation. they are all, lucky for us, msnbc contributors. jackie, let's start with you, where do things stand right now?

do we have any indication when they're going to rule? >> evan corcoran must provide notes, transcripts and pieces of evidence, how classified documents remained at trump's mar-a-lago residence months after the subpoena. this was a panel, as you just laid out of three judges that issued this very brief court order that we at "the washington post" got our hands on. it is a sealed proceeding. we don't know most of the details of this proceeding, and sort of the back and forth that's been going on. but the parties, according to the brief order must comply with the district court's march 17th, 2023 order to produce documents and ends the emergency hold that was on the ruling that was issued by chief justice howell

last week, she had ordered last friday that the crime fraud exception was met and that evan corcoran needed to provide testimony or hand the documents to the department of justice and prosecutors. >> you heard that reporting from the "washington post," talk to me about its significance. >> sure. i think there's significance and what's donald trump's next potential play here, since he's in to delay. first, the significance. evan corcoran drafted in june, a certification saying there are no more documents responsive to a subpoena at mar-a-lago. the government knows and we all know that's not true because a search was done, and guess what, there were tons of documents there. so what the government wants to find out from mr. corcoran is why did he write that? where did he get the

information, and howell ruled on friday that he has to testify and he has to turn over any and all notes and documents related to that subject. presumably, if the reporting is correct, he is going to be saying and may have contemporaneous notes of it that he got that information from donald trump. it is a crime to lie to the department of justice. it is making a false statement. i have charged it in the past. and we've gotten convictions on that. it is also obstruction of justice. that is also a federal crime. so there's a reason this is, i think you can correctly say a bomb shell, you could end up with evan corcoran as a key fundamental witness against donald trump, in an obstruction of justice case, and that is a really important distinguishing factor from everything we've heard with respect to mike pence and the current president who also had documents in places they shouldn't have been, but there's no evidence that they obstructed justice.

so this could be a huge development. and then i think the only thing that donald trump can do now is he can try to get certari, to take it to the supreme court. seems unlikely they would touch this. it's a way of getting a temporary stay. i would think that would, again, be a matter of days, not a question of weeks or months. >> the time line that howell had been doing this on, talk to me about how extraordinary that is, and what it indicates to you. >> sure. judge howell always acted very quickly. when she was the judge overseeing this, special counsel mueller, she turned things around incredibly quickly. the thing that's unusual here, the court of appeals said we're going to issue a temporary stay. but donald trump, your team has until midnight tonight, and then the government, i'm going to give you lots of time, you have to get your response in by 6:00 a.m., so welcome to an all

nighter, that i have never -- i've seen expedited review. i've never seen anything that quick. it's very hard to know why i have to say to me, when i think about what could be a plausible reason, and the pure speculation is that there must be something in the papers that gave the judges concern about national security implications because it's such a short time frame. that they're insisting on having a response here, and must have been, i think, some concern about the government needing to know this information. >> jackie, you heard andrew's legal analysis of what this focus means, what does your reporting tell you? >> yeah, well, this is still very much, you know, reporting that is in motion that we're trying to discern more of. but it was obviously very hard not to notice the

extraordinarily fast scheduling that happened with a midnight deadline, and then a 6:00 a.m. deadline, and then just, you know, not even a full day until the appeals court issued this briefing. you know, i think andrew, i'm not a lawyer. i think andrew is probably right in that there could be some sensitivity in national security, reasons why the judges moved so quickly here. but there also is a potentially other explanation that i know is under discussion right now from sort of the trump legal world. that world is very large, which is the fact that because beryl howell handed over the evidence that she had ruled could now be provided to the department of justice on friday right away, that in order to, then, protect the people who hadn't seen this

evidence, which, you know, i think andrew can, again, describe this far more eloquently than i can, which would then sort of taint some of these people, if the appeals court ultimately ruled that the evidence could not be handed over but people and the department of justice and various prosecutors, whoever had laid their eyes on this evidence could now not use in information, if that's the way that the courts ruled, this was sort of to isolate that potential issue and ensure that as few people as possible potentially saw this evidence. but obviously the way that the appeals court ruled today, it does sort of minimize that issue. >> jackie, my friend, i have been lamenting to andrew my decision not to go to law school, given the amount we are deep in this legalese. >> i'll be grading this at the end. this is one where we all have to take educated guesses as to what's going on.

it is definitely plausible, beryl howell, at least according to to reports, turned over some of the information immediately to the department of justice. that's unusual that a district court would take what they have, the ex parte to review, obviously the cat's out of the bag at that point, and so this does sort of protect in many ways the government because, you now have this circuit saying, yes, what the district court did was fine. i have to say, the judge has ruled in this exact issue during the special counsel mueller investigation. there's a public decision that she's written on. it is so solid and so strong that i think she must have been feeling very confident that there's just no argument here that this is either attorney/client privilege, and even if it is, it's a crime fraud exception applies, there's a simple roll, which you cannot

commit a crime using your lawyer. that does not make something privileged, and so you would think donald trump could have looked at what happened with manafort, seen that the judge ordered the exact same thing and learned his lesson, apparently he didn't. >> what do you make to the reference to recordings? >> fascinating. so the reason -- i know a lot of people talked about did mr. corcoran make recordings, that wouldn't be, my understanding as a lawyer is that's not proper. you're not supposed to record people. those ethical prohibitions. the idea that mr. corcoran would have made these recordings seems unlikely. i think he's enough of a real lawyer not to be doing that. so the only other thing about is it possible that he actually is holding recordings in his possession that were made by others, and, for instance, by the former president or of the former president, so there could be something like that, if it's true, i mean, everyone of

course, as soon as you hear recordings, you keep on thinking about the georgia recording and the michael cohen recording of the former president, so it remains to be seen. the one thing it does appear is there are notes that he took, contemporaneously, so that obviously is something that the government really wants to get their hands on. >> jackie, you wanted to jump in? >> yeah, i just have a little bit of reporting on it. while it is a pretty salacious detail, i have been cautioned that it could include any voice memos that corcoran or lawyers might have taken if they have sloppy handwritten or more tech savvy than the average lawyer and wanted to memorialize certain conversations by dictating what they were told by their clients and then having that automatically transcribed. that's what the recordings could entail, and not necessarily mr. corcoran reporting trump, which is easy to infer.

>> andrew, what is your face trying to tell me? >> if there are recordings that are just, you know, my private recordings instead of writing something down, i just record something, that's something that lawyers can do, and just another form of taking notes. if it was something where you and i are having a conversation, i think, oh, maybe i should record this because it's going to help me with my taking notes of it and memorializing it, that is a problem, if a lawyer does that. >> david jolly, i am struck by the fact that obstruction on its own is a bomb shell. the possibility that we are talking about national security. it's a possibility. the fact that that is being floated as a possibility pretty alarming, and i have to say, it makes it more difficult for the republicans who have been bobbing and weaving on the new york case to do the same here. >> yeah, and alicia, i think we're about to learn the implications if there are some

for national security. i also think something that andrew said is going to heighten our awareness of what seems like this somewhat procedural matter, which is donald trump's main theory or main strategy is always delay, so he very likely will appeal this ruling to the supreme court. but they don't have to take it. in fact, it would kind of be odd for them to take a case around the crime fraud exception, unless there were novel argument made which they failed to make to this point. as a country, we may be watching the supreme court get involved in saying, we're not touching this and mr. president, we agree with the lower court. you have to provide this information, which does a couple of things politically. first, it draws a sharp contrast to the cases of joe biden and mike pence, right? there has never been an accusation of fraud or intentional concealment by president biden or vice president pence. there clearly have been accusations around that with donald trump, and now we're learning the actual behavior of obstruction has been involved in concealing those documents, and then the second political

implication, i think we're learning a lot in realtime coming out of the manhattan d.a. story, which is that the fealty and loyalty to donald trump, to the party and the party's base, as well as its leaders is permanent. we're seeing the permanency that we weren't always sure might be there. the flex of donald trump, that we saw coming out of the manhattan jury story, we would see coming out of mar-a-lago, and it kind of defies reason to think that you could defend a former president who has apparently engaged, allegedly engaged in obstruction of justice and lying to the government. but i think that's what we might be about to see, and we don't quite know how the nation will ultimately absorb this permanency of the republican party continuing to defend donald trump when he's under such scrutiny. >> andrew i want to read you more from abc news reporting on the ruling. at one point she described trump's interactions with officials from the national archives as a quote dress

rehearsal, sources said for his later efforts at misdirection in response to the grand jury. i mean, that seems to me to be probing a pattern of behavior. >> well, absolutely. so we have a lot of information because of all of the information that came out in the mar-a-lago back and forth skirmishing with judge cannon and the special master about interactions with the national archives, and the idea that judge howell was looking at what she could consider misleading or false statements that are being made not just in the certification by mr. corcoran, but also to the national archives is looking at this as don't just look at the certification, this is a whole pattern of conduct that she is seeing here with respect to how these documents were being held, and to me, it's just something so ironic because, you know, if the former president had simply handled this the way the current

president or the vice president, former vice president should have handled it and just said, yes, this is a mistake, and here they are. >> if it was a mistake. >> exactly. or even if it had been taken, and it's like, oh, this was found, and just turned it back over, the pattern of waiting for not just months but years to actually turn it over and to have this history of not just delay, but sort of false statements about what he was doing, to me is going to make it easier for jack smith, if he decides there's enough evidence here to really distinguish this case from the case involving biden and pence. that is going to be obviously a huge topic for the sort of american electorate for us, talking about this as to why one and not the other, and what we're learning about today in this ruling at the district court and now the court of appeals is something that really is sort of a wedge as to what is really different, and the final comment i'll make is isn't it

just unbelievably fascinating that we're talking about lawyers at the center of this, mr. corcoran, mr. cohen, mr. costello. >> make attorneys get attorneys, and you also are in the situation where attorneys may be the key witnesses in cases against donald trump where you are mr. cohen, mr. costello, may have mr. cipollone, a whole series of lawyers testifying to what happened in the same way related to my own life, don mcghan was so central to our report in terms of what he was asked to do by the former president, and refused to do, so i think you're going to see a lot of lawyers, sort of the tip of the iceberg, i think, in terms of what we're going to be covering in the next few months. >> jackie, zoom out for us, where does this go from here? >> another great question that's still a moving target. i mean, we know that the special

counsel has been pressing to call in witnesses as quickly as possible. that mandate was given to prosecutors to get people in front of the grand jury and pick up the pace, and you can see that just in the publicly reported subpoenas that have been issued to a number of people ranging from the stone at mar-a-lago to several of the lawyers including evan corcoran, boris epshteyn, people who have done interviews with the department of justice, and some who have appeared before the grand jury. how close they are, actually, to reaching a charging decision is the key question, something that we ask our sources every day. the fact, though, that, you know, the special counsel is now this much closer to potentially getting this key information from evan corcoran shows that

they are actually moving closer to that target, but where that stands in the grand scheme of all the other litigation that is now going on from the special counsel's other investigation into january 6th to alvin bragg, it seems to -- there really is no rhyme or reason here, and these things ebb and flow, and change day by day. >> jackie alemany, i'm going to release you so you can go do your job and report. thank you so much for starting us off. andrew and david you're sticking around. what it means that the d.a. alvin bragg has postponed the grand jury. and what we know about any other witnesses. florida governor ron desantis continuing to dance around how hard to fight the ex-president. in their possible 2024 match up,

we'll show you how hard he's hitting in a new interview set to air on fox news this week. later in the show a reality tv president wanting to make a spectacle, a show of a possible criminal indictment, the reporting behind that and more when "deadline white house" continues after this. [ tires squeal, crash ] when owning a small business gets real, progressive gets you right back to living the dream. now, where were we? [ cheering ]

we mentioned at the top of this program that there is a lot to get into in another unprecedented criminal case. one, that could be headed soon to an indictment of the ex-president. a special grand jury in manhattan investigating his hush money payments to stormy daniels did not meet today.

but they could reconvene storm. now, it's important to review that at least right now in this moment, one of his fiercest defenders is his attorney, joe tacopina, who says the hush money payments were quote not a crime, and the legal system is being weaponized against his client. nbc news has learned the manhattan d.a. has e-mails and communications between tacopina's law firm and stormy daniels around the time daniels was looking for an attorney to represent her and also when tacopina was publicly suggesting the payment could be an illegal agreement. from that nbc news report, the e-mails have information about the agreement much of which was confidential, brewster said. he said the e-mails led to a conference with tacopina.

i want to read from the "wall street journal," their reporting today. the jury could still hear from additional witnesses or prosecutors could formally present charges which is the final step before the panel votes on whether to indict. do you think we hear from more witnesses? who is it you think we hear from? >> the thing that was surprising to everyone today was that the grand jury didn't sit today after everyone was thinking it would. it is pure speculation as to whether they're now going to call stormy daniels to actually testify under reports that she was interviewed but not that she went into the grand jury. that's one possibility. another possibility, which i think would be fascinating, is that mr. weisselberg, the former chief financial officer who was convicted in october of last year, he is not formally cooperating, but he could be subpoenaed and brought from rikers island where he is sitting in jail and forced to testify in the grand jury about this. and that's another possibility. >> because what does he provide

for them? >> well, according to michael cohen, he was involved in the scheme that cohen and weisselberg was supposed to figure out how to get the payments to stormy daniels and what the cover story would be, and the cover story reportedly is that it was all masked as legal fees when, in fact, it wasn't. these were hush money payments. so weisselberg, according to cohen, knows about all of this. you can imagine that's another potential witness who they could put in the grand jury, a third if they could be responding to what mr. costello said last week, they think there should be additional evidence, and there are all sorts of things, a scheduling issue, did they need more time, all of the things, we could be making a bigger deal out of it than it is, and what the prosecutors do at the end when all of the witnesses are in and they think they have established probable cause is they do generally a sort of mini summation, they sort of tell the grand jurors why they think they

have established probable cause and the prosecutors and everyone but the grand jurors leave the room, and the grand jurors, which is up to 23 people sit and deliberate. but unlike a child jury, the standard is just probable cause, and it doesn't require unanimous. >> nbc news asked about contact he had with daniels, and he said, quote, of course not, never met her. never spoke to her. she tried to hire me by calling my office and spoke to a paralegal. i never spoke to her. always the paralegal getting thrown under the bus. >> this may lead to ethical issues, depending on what exactly happened. but just to be clear, what i understand from the facts are that stormy daniels did have some sort of conversation with his office, if not with him, about his representing him.

that does create attorney/client privileges and relationship. you are not allowed after that to denigrate your former client. so for instance, when mr. tacopina went on air, essentially saying it's a lie, it didn't happen, there was no sex, and there was just no payments, it was an extortion, that is all derogatory information about somebody who he appears to have -- at least he said he used to represent. so that will all get worked out. in terms of the case, the actual case that everyone is focusing on, i think the import is that it would be extremely unlikely that tacopina would appear as counsel of record for donald trump meaning that if he did that, then i think the d.a. office would really pursue this, saying you cannot be counsel of record and have represented a witness. >> here's the thing, david jolly, if you are a normal person going through this, you would be hunkered down with your

lawyers, going through legal strategy, taking their counsel. instead you have reporting that the former president is most interested in a media spectacle, and i just wonder if he's going to get the public response that he's dreaming and hoping for? >> yeah, first of all, can we just talk about how bad at life donald trump actually is. the entire world is talking about his hush money scheme. hush money, this entire thing was designed so that none of us would know about it, and here it is in full view, and the whole world knows about it. the entire thing has fallen apart, and i think to andrew's discussion about what are we waiting to see from the grand jury is whether or not there was illegality around this business expense, and that gets pretty nuanced. the question you asked is a perfect one, which is i don't think the american people are going to depend too much on nuance here. they're asking themselves a couple of questions. do i care that the former president lied about being in a relationship with an adult film star? it seems that question has been baked into our politics right now, and so then the question

is, has donald trump been able to use this to galvanize sufficient report of the republican party to increase his hold on the party, and i think the early answer to that is yes, but for ron desantis, there was zero hesitation among the base or republican leaders to quickly come to donald trump's side. this would have been an opportunity for them to seek daylight from the former president, but they didn't. only ron desantis blinked. all the others demonstrated that it will strengthen donald trump's hand. it's a remarkable moment in american political history. >> david jolly, you know we're talking about ron desantis our next block. andrew weissmann, don't go far, the minute you leave, big news will break. former governor ron desantis speaking out again calling out the ex-president in an interview, set to air on fox news, how the punches are hitting down at mar-a-lago. that's next.

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heading on a family trip? nah, sorry son, prices are crazy, [son deflates] awh, use priceline. they have package deals no one else has. [son inflates] we can do it! ♪go to your happy price♪ ♪priceline♪ the political world has been waiting for any of the likely gop candidates for the republican nomination for president to say something. anything remotely critical of the current front runner donald trump. ron desantis, well, he is supposedly taking the debate in a sit-down with piers morgan. his only answer is he's trump minus the drama. >> i get personnel in the government who have the agenda

of the people and share our agenda. you bring your own agenda in, you're gone. we're just not going to have that. so the way we run the government, i think, is no daily drama. >> no drama. let's bring in ashley parker, "washington post" senior national political correspondent and an msnbc political analyst. david is still with us. david, i'm struck by the fact that when we saw earlier was him trying to have it both ways, right? you saw him both trying to criticize alvin bragg and the investigation while also repeating the claims against donald trump, reminding you what it is that he might be guilty of, and here you see him getting a little bit more aggressive. is he realizing that now is the moment where he is going to have to make the comparison clear? >> i think he's realizing that he really screwed up the initial response in terms of political republican politics, alicia, i

mean this. call it the 24 hours of silence heard around the world in republican silence. it didn't seem significant at the time. it's clear that ron desantis was the one republican that refused to immediately go out and fight for donald trump. and i guess what we're learning is that still is a requirement. we saw it from pence, mccarthy, and others. look, it was nuanced, it was an immediate attack on alvin brag as opposed to a raw defense of donald trump. it was suggested if you're saying this is a political prosecution, you're essentially saying donald trump did no wrong and i got his back. ron desantis blinked. he refused to back the president, and you saw some of the voices in trump world say pay attention right now, who is defending the president and not. recently elected, election denier, freshman member of congress from florida said this was enough for me to say i'm now with donald trump and not ron desantis and in the presidential race. then ron desantis went further, and when he did speak, he took a

swipe at donald trump, and you can say this was pent up anger over donald trump hitting him, that's fine. you could suggest it's the quick temper of ron desantis, you could suggest it's the glass jaw, but he took a swipe at the old man, and it did not play well. then he runs to piers morgan to try to clean it up. i would suggest that the difference between he and donald trump is not that ron desantis is no drama, it's that he's more successful at the cruelty, and ultimately we have seen that play out in the governor's mansion and that's what we would get in the white house from ron desantis. >> ashley, you write desantis's halting three step illustrates the struggle of how to effectively take on trump, presumptive front runner. frank luntz says the best message is thank you, mr. trump, thank you for your service. just go away. that message, harder to land it would seem, ashley? >> yeah, it is a tough message to land, and this is whatnot just these 2024 republican

hopeful candidates like ron desantis have been grappling with. as we document, the republican party as a whole, you have potential rivals to trump. you have strategists and pollsters, you have donors, outside groups who have spent the past several weeks quietly message testing what works against donald trump specifically in a republican primary. right? which of course is different than what may work against donald trump, in a general election where you're trying to appeal to a different type of voter. they're taking lessons learned from 2016, and trying to not repeat those mistakes, so desantis was of course the most closely watched. he was first for weeks, just silent on trump. didn't criticize him whenever trump went after him. didn't weigh in. he then did that sort of -- he criticized the manhattan d.a., and also used the opportunity to repeat the charges and then in this piers morgan interview, i viewed it a little less as clean

up. but he also didn't really offer a scathing attack on trump. it was sort of an implicit, right? he never said, you know, trump's government was chaos laden and full of scandal and controversy but in the way he talked about his own administration in florida and what he would bring if he ever ran for the white house is a very implicit contrast. that's the next step and we may see more steps yet as desantis like the rest of his party, tries to figure out his footing on this pretty complicated issue. >> the interesting thing to me, david about the contrast is that in the interest of trying to appeal to trump's voters, we have watched ron desantis try to become trumpier than trump, whether it is the six-week abortion ban, currently being proposed in the florida state legislature, the treatment of migrants putting them on planes from other states to martha's vineyards, whether it's his

election police, which has succeeded in nothing other than the catching floridians in the act of participating in their democracy. all of that, david, and i want to pull up the recent poll numbers from morning consult, the 2024 primary poll. you've got trump at 54%. desantis at 26%. and pence at 7%. here he is. he has tried to become trump, and those numbers have not moved in the right direction for him. >> well, so listen, all of this happens linearly in a campaign, right and so the analysis a month ago may not be the analysis now, and part of that is because we are seeing donald trump actually begin to run a real campaign. he's had a strong month, and now this question of the indictment is galvanizing support for him. so what does ron desantis do, and i think ashley's correction is right. it wasn't so much clean up as it was resetting the news cycle around ron desantis. he didn't like that news cycle of being the person that has stayed silent. now he had to get out there and do one thing, talk about his

maga credentials, his culture wars primarily in the state of florida, and that is the strategy, and it's been informed. we saw it in pennsylvania. there was a senate candidate that started to emerge at the very end against oz, cassie barnett, and donald trump hit her hard and said no, no, don't go for cassie barnett, go for oz, and her response was maga doesn't belong to one person, it belongs to all of us, and it's actually a way to embrace donald trump and then celebrate your loyalty and fealty to it and your success at delivering, and this is where ron desantis has a good argument for republicans, he's delivered more cruelty than donald trump, and that could be his pathway to the nomination. >> what an argument that is. ashley and david, you are sticking around. when we come back, how democrats are responding to the legal troubles brewing for the ex-president.

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far away from discussing the republican front runner in that race, donald trump. ashley parker, david jolly are back with us. ashley, what is democrats' reticence around trump's indictment, the lack of desire to talk about it, what does it say about this moment in our political culture? >> this, at least from the biden administration, and obviously this is emanating on down to senators and house members on the democratic side, but it's been a general reticence, not to engage on former president trump. they didn't think it was particularly helpful at the start of the biden administration. there's moments where, you know, in the midterms where extremist republican candidates connection to trump has certainly helped democrats succeed in sort of that whole maga, ultra maga association has helped them, but they made a calculation early on that what voters wanted from democrats were tangible results, whether it was on the economy or

prescription drug prices or infrastructure. and there's also a sense that when someone like donald trump may be imploding, it's best just to stand back and let him implode and a final point, i will make is from some of the democrats too, and this has been a concern, this case, moving forward, the most quickly where we expect a possible indictment. it's tricky, it's hard to explain to anyone, the new york case. let alone a voter who's not paying a ton of attention, and there's also an understanding that while something like this might not help donald trump in a general election where voters are exhausted of the chaos and controversy, it will give a short-term boost if he's able to portray himself as the victim of a democratic witch hunt. >> let's talk about that chatter, which we've largely heard from republicans about how this could possibly help him. i think ashley's right, if that was specifically about new york,

i think it is telling that just today you have seen more action as it relates to this case and you have seen coming out of the new york case. yes, one was out ahead. another could catch right up. is that chatter spin? do you think there's any legitimacy to it orit, or do yo think itxd changes depending onf and when i(%ch indictment comes down?xd >> i'm afraid we're learningt( i used to think the different investigations from thexd new yk grand jury around stormy daniels to thexd mar-a-lago case around documents to the department of juss e case around j6, i do think they're different. butfá the early indication for t( voters, probably not. i want to drawçó a contrast of something we saw with joe biden. it's a respectlp for rule of la by the democrats. the one thing that republicans are doing isw3 not only attacki prosecutors, but trying to abstruck the rule of■3 law.

when donald trump's lawyers wr/4 a letter to jim jordani] o the hill and say please help u9 interfere in the manhattan d.a.'s case and he says okay, i co contrast to a president going about his job andñr letting the rulexdjf of law reign. so if that is the republican behavior that'st( working, it's tell by rep-b%9m

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ron desantis on, that don't say gay didn't go far enough.u

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he could waver at(ci]fá photo-op with potentia deadly consequences. >> hey again, everyone. there was his holdingt(cxd up ae outside st. john'si] church whe black lives matter protestors were cleared off the streets.ñr .9i

a lot of thisfá iscorw3 showman but if this is the first, and it may not be the last.çó if it's not the last, some of these other ones coming up behind it mayq make it harder.çó >> tell me how actually play out here on earthó >> so one of theq things i thin that donald trump has not had to contend with hisñiw3 entire lif;

if indicted, he will have to go someplace hejfxd doesnl>ñ wantj which is he will return to new york,w3r photographed,ñie1 he will goçó court andjfi] arraigned like an other defendant. you will seexd the ruler action. his former job isçó irrelevant. if a grand jury determined he has committed a crime, he will be treatedcg$sr)qxd everyone el. secret servicei]q protection hao be accounted for,e1 making suree can get through3w■ the system. he will have to be arraignedñept

there willqáq a court that will set certain deadlinesjf forw3 h%m(e+ery,xd and ultimately aok trial, and he will have to beñrt that t2rl like any other defendant if hefá decides t/■( d trial. >> so thank you for grounding us j of what this wilt■p look qlike,t( and the fa that they want it to lookxd entirely different than he does. peter, i want to read at( littl more from that reporting. "mr. trump has been invigorated and angered by the prospectw3xd being arrested. he's also entertained a certain amount of magical thinking. ford wom worked with him years ago at the trump organization, mr. trump, who was investigated in the 1970s, was frightened of being arrested. het( spent yearsr officials who might havee1

when, in fact, this is !ñá huge moment, right? it may not be the most serious allegations that have everñ made against him, this hush money for a porn star's silence. but it is the first time in history that a president or former president would ever be indicted. that's not aok small thing. i think whatever bravad have there, it's not -- i they have been a winningq stuyuqt to be indicted. he is going to try to make himself the victim here, and that will be a political show, and maybee1 he will succeed at r he has successfully in the past, managed to discredit or tried to discredit any investigators coming after him, including his former boss. by using the same phrasesi] ove and over again, he manages to look like he's the victim instead of thelp perpetrator of

crime. that might not work in the ñrçó courtroom. particularly if thisoúwu the first of several indictments. if there are two, three, four on him, t$cá's a different ball game. i think they don'tçó know what imagine when that happens. >> there was some amazing repot9

would want them to go. >> let meñi read you something written for msnbc ñidaily.

"trump's potential indictment by a manhattan grand jury, potential indictment in georgia, and potential indictment by federal grand juries mean our law enforcementjf agencies and r very ruleñr of law could be sory tested. just to say thew3 federalvfrese regularly subjects banks to stress tests to determine whether or not they can sustainr losses, our criminal justice system isok about to undergo it own kind of stress w3test, exce this isn't a table topr it's real and the stakes are high." and this was a day when peopler anticipated there could have an indictment. there were many, many, many reporters there. repoingle protestor. so it will ber

whether there really is somee1w sort of violent protest. but in termsi] of the legal sysm in general, this is something this countryok has not had tot(l with. there are other countries where there are political leaders who m0(ave current andfá former,jf have been held to account, and they have gotten through it. and they have had their systems and eal have had their systems testament to the rule of law, and also peját understanding that if donald trump is indictmented, he's entitled to due process andñr añi presumptif innocence. ultimately, he mayt(q be convic orxd acquitted,xd and people ma have very strong emotions either way, butt( they do have to put their faith in the system in terms of lettingr work.3u(zd i think it could be e country isfáxd naive or e1e1pol about it, comes outfá stronger, understanding that nobody is above the w3law, everyone is entitled to due process and let

so he mayñr be the first formal president to be criminally charged. this is another state of affairs that we wil> have to get used to, and haveok to learn howe1 t talk about should he run again for re-election. this feels like unchartered territory, again. >> yeah. i think it will be a big challenge to the m-xp on howq to treat him with the contempt he deserves to befá treated with, given his acti$v'■ around the coup and january 6t(th, of cour, but now around all six different investigations that he's under right now.c i think that we are seeing republican electedxdht■ officia fail this; test, as they are

to be a lose person in history to be twicexd indicted -- excuse me, to be th president in history to be indicted, you xdfáknow, those a somer he's going to be the only person to hold. i do think that is something that matters, and that a lot of this kindxd of false bravado is covering up how d andctjuym■ shameful this is goi to be if and when itñi happens. >> if only he cared aboutlpi]jf democracy as much as his personal brand. i want to play some sound of chris christie, talking about how being indicted couldr potentially impact a presidential (teyñrt( >> can someone run for office

and do debates and giveó[■ interviews when they aren indictment andok notw3 make the situation worse? >> no, i think it's impossible for them not to make the situation worse. what i would say is givenzv■ the limited nature ofñ new york case, i don't know thaf he's going to be getting a whole lot of questions abouti] the stormy daniels situation any way. i think it is a cut and dry situation.xdçó and i don't know that he would make his situation marketedly every time you open yo mouth, as you know, in this kind ofr risk of it addingfáçó complicat to where you could lose your liberty that's why defs.ue lawyers tell their clients to keep quiet. because you don't need to make thatjf situation moreçó complic, because your liberty is at stake. >> it's kind of already here. he gets up on stage and repeats.

i understand that prosecutors have a cornucopia of but heñr seems hell bent on makg sure they have a little extra every time he gets on stage.ñr i've been askingçó the question how does i[dw3 complicate his ll case to have him out fhgre on the stump?e1 >> let's remember, chris christie was the u.s. attorney in new jersey. he knows what he's talking about. he's been on the government side, and when you are in the government and you see somebody ájjt public lp statements,q you're just sittin there salivating,fá looking for additional proof. i remember when ifá didok the e

shoe to drop, but maybe not theá last. therer a whole host of cases, criminal and civil. the civilt(w3 case xdyesterday, is a mu4t5%11■ion dollar case against donald trump and his children and his organization, and the judge there said, we're going to trial in the fall on this date, come hellr water. anotherfá bad thing forjf donal trump. again, that will be in the middle of the election season. and so he is going to bet(lp he in in terms of what he can s52éñ and it's an area where he may be thinking politically. i can sort ofok controlok publi support, that is not going to move judges and juries. and at the end of the day, w3he not going to be able to spinçó s way out of a criminal or civil case, anyt( more than -- i mean there is a place where facts and

>> i want tor our #l$ñviewers, i think we tho we were going to sit here todd and talk about the new york case. dtqi átuj of the day coming fro judge howell, ruling in doj's favor. if you have corcorani]ñr testif how do you think that speeds up the timeline for jack smith?e1ñd uze1e1fáfáqfá investigations. }é$e huge january 6th case. i think everyone, includingfá myself, thinks that i the case if proof can be established, that is the most serious. that isó[■ challeng■.ñt the peal transfer of powerp'yc but the second investigation is

about the retention of highly classifiedko■ documents and obstructing that investigation. when you would think a former ì(lc% involvingxd documents and obstruction, i think if kevint( corcoran is now required toñr testifyxd and turn e1over, thate could be,q you know, warp speed in terms of that being ready. that is such -- lookñi like in legal talk? >>fá i could use this imminentl which we all know --ñrxd >> forp,■ me,e1w3 thatfá means commercial break. for you, thatñr means a few months. >> i do think there willu

corcoran.

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even as the american public holds its collective xdbreath, h absorbed, transfixed by historic decisions being made in a lower manhattane1 courthouse, we are monitoring a crucial story developing now in delaware.!u■

day two of oral arguments for what's called a summary judgment hearing in the $1.6 billion defamation lawsuit against fox brought by dominion voting system. ñ to begin in less than ag executivesçó alike knew claims about election fraud were fake. but that the netwoj went+■r 9g aired them any t(e1a5a.■way, defamation. in response, fox5a■ asserted th after a ñrreview of these

transcripts, the judge appeared more skeptical of arguments made by fox thandominion. notab$y (u+q) to admit w3something. "are wee1 going to the jury tha dominion committed election fraud byñi rigging thee1lplpe1 election fraud? if notion, i need to know from you whatxd evidence that you have tt dominion rigged the 2020q are you going to present any evidence6z■ offá that?" the response from fox'st(t( ñrl we are notx#qq#endingw3i]t( onn allegation are true.ñiznñ joining usok conversation, president of media matters,xd b first, ■iandrew, likec içójfçóñ wish i would have gone to law ì% did i get the contours of the case right? what it is fundamentally that they are trying to argue?

>> so you have both sides saying that a trial is not necessary. fox ist( saying you should disms the case completely, and dominion isg are there facts at issue, that the judger the factual issues for a jury is that dominiokft( wasñi changingk votes, and it's so tellingxd th fox is w3like,w3 no, we're not. so o would say is partial summary judgment, this is nowñi getting you quite intoq8h law m#)jrár)h% ó partial summary judgment, ÷ fact, t2d

dominion did note1 change any votes is decidedgçñ the court, it is not challenged by fox. so the jury has to take that as afá given. now, what is fox going to say aq a defense? that forlxcnyi] specifict( defay statement that is allegedly t( dominion, that it hasn't been shown that the person who uttered itc or responsible for t did soxd deliberately and knowingly. in other words, it's not enough because of the first amendment for it to be a mistake. you have to showxd that each defamatory statement was done deliberately.ñi now, unfortunately for l fortunately for dominion, there i think u

r you knewlp that was the sourc of the information that i ñith) you would not be putting me on.1 >> that was my e1followup question. as someone who constantly watches andz( tracks fox çfquák wonder what you are watching for as it relates to the news, and as it relates toñi dominion. in this case, it was dominion, come up next election, it could be another entity. >> yeah.ñiqjflpxd my overi

going to burn brighter and hotter. we just need to be prepared forq

so i look at that, that'] what i'm looking on the content side. they arebyyájjt to burn brighte and hotter and race for that as they can before they deal with ability here. on the legal side,xd there's tw big3w■ things. one is whether or not they're successfulxde1 at shielde1iingç murdoch and paul ryanr havingfá to attend court. now.%%■ think that is very significant,e1lpñr becauseçó he accountable and it's part of their argument, that he wasn't engaged in this md he doesn't add anything to the discussion. i think it will be a difference maker not only for the trial buó the narrative how doqiuq%y

ink people, even with uq%y all the information that's outx there, fully appreciate the there, fully appreciate the industrial scalee1w3 that fox i we're just passing through on our way to the jazz jamboree. [ imitates trumpet playing ] and we wanted to thank america's number-one motorcycle insurer -for saving us money. -thank you. [ laughs ] mara, your parents are -- exactly like me? i know, right?

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andrew, somethinglpe1 angel% said had youfá leaning forward. >> you said something about donald trump and 9aing statements that could hurt his criminal cases. well, the thingé@■ that's happe( with fox, locklandfá reportedly oing just finew3 dfá reportedly financially, inste this lawsuit suspect going to change our bus)h you can bring your lawsuit, but we're still going to bring in the money. that's going to hurt if this goes to trial, and there is a punitive damages section.t( more law school for you.jfxd

compensatory damages are to figure out how is dominion hurt and give them money to make thef whole. punitive damages is somethingq that the jury t(says, howxd do make this stop? how do i get the defendant in front of me, what is the t(amou of money to punish them, to deter this from happening again? so if you have a statementñl>om lockland saying we're doing just fine -- >>÷ what is the red, white, and blue?x ioñ so ing they respond to money. so you should xdaward as many

punitive damages as you can to prete4%( prevent this from happening. >>xdjf vpangela, we have sat he manyv this will do for their business model.>x@&h(lc% i g them. pif they do anything tooe1 pro trump, it will hurt theirt( stas in the media and potentially their case.çóçó and their appeal to other republican candidates. so they're>dqstratling that wit the audience. on the business front, they're trying to project power and conf!"nce andq reinforcing that they're comfortable for

advertisers, that it's safe to come back. they have all thisu but in the shortr real threat. i do think it creates theçó stakes, and this is part of what we are seeing@hp this narrative, is that it's not just a couple of xdqthings. it is industrial scale deceit. if foxt( is not corrected now, d it's not just about getting v not a single thing can ever get better in this ko■country. it will only get worse. wer democracy, but wexd can't have y

durable stability in our civic institutions if we have an operation out there, a political operation out there, that isxd operating and masquerading as a news network and willing to pollute the streamjf ofñr the information ec9ñ not asxd ae1 random thing onlin but wil all ofñii] the resource that go along with that of a major news oper so this is av and money is a big part of it. from the summary hearing about a so-called brainlpu

soñi it was a fact check to go along with it. so they fact checked thexdr allegations on novez&r 13th. so they are saying that fox news

thank you so much for being here. when we return, why a hospital in one red state with strict abortion restrictions is closing itslp maternity ward. that's after a quick break. it's daylight saving time. what's the big deal? what's the big deal? what's the big deal? ♪marching band music♪ scotts daylawn saving is the biggest deal of the year. stock up early and save up to $20 dollars on the best scotts products.

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don't take rybelsus® if you or your family ever had medullary thyroid cancer, or have multiple endocrine neoplasia syndrome type 2, or if allergic to it. stop rybelsus® and get medical help right away if you get a lump or swelling in your neck, severe stomach pain, or an allergic reaction. serious side effects may include pancreatitis. gallbladder problems may occur. tell your provider about vision problems or changes. taking rybelsus® with a sulfonylurea or insulin increases low blood sugar risk. side effects like nausea, vomiting, and diarrhea may lead to dehydration, which may worsen kidney problems. need to get your a1c down? you may pay as little as $10 per prescription. we are following troubling news out abortion.ñi a facility in rural idaho is

closing itq mas maternity ward to the legal and political t and makingfá doctors the state becausefá of laws thad restrict abortions. highly respeí in addition, idaho legislature passed billionspl)pá criminalized physici! medical care.i]v u0 = that took effect in wake of the supreme courtsiem■ decision last summer. angela, thanks for being here. i want to read a little from "the washington post" reporting on this.ñiçóñifá

this woman manned to +náe her fourth child in the samee1 hospital where her husband had beenfá delivered decades earlie. but at 23 weeks pregnant, shev found that the facility wasq shuttering its obstetrics unit after 5u what ise1 the dangerfá of a hosl closing in a community this small?çó >> you know, it's really about the reale1 impacts on the livesf %-phospital ishw longçó time.

complications can happen at any ñz]q6z■ this hour drive is going to make this hour drive is going to make au

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that and the paycheck. thank you for spending this wednesday with us. i'll be back with you friday. "the beat" with ari melber start right now. hey, ari, any big legal news you're following? >> you know, this and that, alicia. we'll see you out here. thanks for pulling the extra hours. >> you got it. >> welcome the "the beat." we are following big legal news. i'm ari melber. let me start like this. one day later, and donald trump's prediction of his own indictment and arrest has not occurred, which is why we've always followed the facts and evidence in this still quite hot escalating legal story. we don't follow the claims, the predictions or self-serving pronouncements. whatever drove trump to claim, he knew what was coming was not, as of