make sure, that option is available to us, as many americans as possible. now look, i know in this town, a lot of folks don't always agree. right? and don't always feel heard, seen, listen to, yes? but i think we should all do our best to try to take care of each other as my own personal teeth belief, that's something everyone on our stage agrees with, that's when we talk about in the right, around the editing room, everything in between. we just want to emulate these make believe folks will be all played eight to richmond, and the way they take care of one another. -- ♪ ♪ ♪ >> tonight on all in -- >> the district attorney has the documentation in order to validate every single statement that i have made. >> the disgraced former president predicts his own indictment, as a grand jury convenes, and team trump makes

a final push to persuade jurors. >> i could see certainly a few of them were doing what you're doing right now, shaking your head up and down. >> tonight, as protective barricades go up in new york, what we know about what is coming and when. plus, the other major developments in georgia and d. c.. the posturing of trump allies in high office and the ones battling him for a nomination. >> i don't know what goes into paying hush money to a porn star to secure wins over some type of alleged affair. >> tonight, george conway, danya perry, congressman adam schiff, michael steele, mona charen, and jon meacham on what could be history in the making. -- when all in starts right now. ♪ ♪ ♪ >> good evening. i am chris hayes. well, the country is bracing for what could be an imminent indictment of donald trump in manhattan. there are reports that it could

be handed down as early as today, although as far as we know, that has not happened. over the weekend, the ex president took to social media to say, in all caps, he would be arrested on tuesday. though he is the only source of that information. so, you know, grain of salt, i guess. this afternoon, the grand jury heard from a trump ally named robert estelle, that individual who tried to discredit michael cohen, who is of course the key witness in the manhattan district attorney's case. it seems plausible an indictment could come after the grandeur we meet again on wednesday. of course, it is possible there will be no indictment at all.

all eyes are on the grand jury and on the ex president. trump has been on social media for the past few days using his knockoff twitter platform to lash out at just about everyone from michael cohen to ron desantis -- but he has saved the most vitriol for manhattan district attorney alvin bragg. the ex president insists as somehow, quote, racist in reverse for daring to investigate his misdeeds. in language, echoing his enticement ahead of january 6th -- defending protesters. hopefully, i gotta say, things stay that way. obviously, the best-case scenario would before trump's reporters to remain peaceful, especially considering this

might not be the only time he is indicted. right now, as i am speaking to you, trump's attorneys are working to discredit another case built up against him. they are in georgia trying to block a grand jury report into his efforts to pressure local officials into overturning an election. they are also trying to force district attorney fani willis who ran that grand jury in georgia to recuse herself over bogus claims of political violence. now, the indictments in that case are also expected to, if donald trump ceases his day in court, he's gonna need a better defense than his claims of political witch hunt. joining me now, jonathan dienst, chief justice contributor for nbc news, chief investigative reporter for wnbc in new york. he has been reporting on this all day. jonathan, what is the latest? >> it is the grand jury, ending its work today. we have no news out of the da's office or the grand jury. it also meets on wednesdays, so the expectation is that we may learn more than. we were told from numerous

officials that we should expect nothing tomorrow, so tuesday is expected to be a quiet day here in new york on the da grand jury front. and that we should expect to perhaps learn more on wednesday when that is the next scheduled day for that grand jury. that attorney, robert costello, who was put in front of that grand jury as a trump defender, if you will, ended his testimony sometime after 4:00, around 4:30. he then came out and spoke to the press, and basically outlined all the reasons why why he said he told the gradually that michael cohen's story cannot be trusted, cannot be believed, and that ended late in the day so the presumption is that this granbury ended its work for the day, and could be back on wednesday. again, a caution, grand jury operates in secret. so were stubborn around in the dark looking for the light switch. but that's the best information that we have based on the tiktok of today's events and

speaking with numerous sources familiar with what's going on in the women home in lower manhattan. >> that is very, very useful. we've also been reporting on preparations around this. obviously it is a big deal for the secret service for the nypd for all sorts of folks in various jobs and security, to make sure all of this goes smoothly and efficiently, and calmly. what is the latest on how they are preparing for that? >> okay, so they have had numerous meetings them. hadn't district attorney's office the court office says the fbi the nypd, a secret service, we've all had meetings about how to move forward if, if this indictment moves on. the best state that has been talked about for several days now, including last week, and continuing through this evening as that wednesday could be a day that we learn much more about a decision or a progress in this investigation. so, that is the timeframe, but in the meantime, because of all of the back and forth political rhetoric that we've heard, and

some of the planned demonstrations. there's another demonstration called for tomorrow to march from trump tower down to the manhattan da's office. there's another one in long island being planned with a caravan of vehicles, pro trump supporters to drive from long island into new york, honking warns, waving flags, that sort of thing. so this is sort of the build up to whatever the final decision is made by the manhattan da's office. so, security measures are being in place, obviously, the nypd and the fbi and the secret service, keeping track of social media for any possible threats. but so far, any protests have been small and peaceful. >> all right, jonathan dienst, think you as always for sharing that tonight. i want to go to george conway,

public conservative attorney and a former republican. and danya perry who served as deputy state attorney general for the state of new york as well. and now works for the seventh district of new york. and both join me right now. danya, let me start with you just on how we expect this to unfold. we heard john's reporting. we heard the gradually met today. we heard they put testimony from costello. there was some sense that perhaps they would vote out an indictment today. it appears right now we don't know definitively that did not happen today, should they reconvene on wednesday. -- they're gonna reconvene on wednesday, but how do you expect that to go, just timeline wise, what we're looking for? >> so, yes, that was the last

step in this process. and former president trump was extended more courtesy's as often the case, though he was allowed to put in a witness. and the grand jury could have processed more information. and the district attorney's office could have provided michael cohen a rebuttal witness, but chose not to. and sometimes reading juries or grand jury's is like reading seaweed, but i think we can say that they did not buy costello's evidence or information, and that they were ready to proceed. so i would agree with jonathan on the indictment, likely handed down on wednesday. and the rest depends upon working out the logistics with the security detail, with law enforcement, and with former president trump's team, as to whether and when he will self surrender. and if they can work out those logistics, it will happen -- i believe just as quickly as those logistics are arranged. >> talk more about that in terms of self render surrender. like, what is the timeline there? would he traveled to new york for that? i would assume he would have to. >> yes, he would have to do that, and that is another courtesy that appears to be extended to him.

but that is not really unusual when you have a first-time defendant, white-collar defendant, high-profile defendant, one who does not present a flight risk, they will be offered that courtesy. and so, he would be given a day and time to surrender to law enforcement. and he would have to get himself here, bring his security detail with him, and then go through the process just like any other defendant. he'll be printed. he'll be photographed. he'll be processed. and he will appear in front of a judge and rearrange. >> george, obviously, this is not the first prominent politician to face this kind of thing. a cynic sitting senator menendez in new jersey went through this, who subsequently was acquitted of the crime. this is something that happens occasionally. are you confident, having a sense of the man psychology, as you do, that he will actually do this by the book, and self surrender, just get it over with? >> i'm not confident with that at all. i think anything is possible with this guy. i think he could decide to drag it out, to create more

controversy. i mean, he is the man who refused -- he's the senator who refused to be at the white house two years ago. so, i think we will be able to know what he's going to do until he actually does it. >> yeah, and i saw a quote from one of his lawyers who said something to the effect of, there won't be a standoff in mar-a-lago, which never occurred to me that was possible. as soon as he said that, i thought to myself, oh, that makes me think there might be a standoff at mar-a-lago. it reminded me a little bit of the quotes that people around trump were giving at the run up to january 6th, assuring everyone constantly that he will go, he will go, he'll go. he just has to work through this. to your point there, given that record before, given what he did on the classified documents, when there is a fork in the road between complying or pressing the envelope, it seems like he likes to push the envelope, and this is another such fork in the road, george? >> that's quite possible, but then if he does that, he gets the perp walk that -- i should think he doesn't want, but maybe he does want.

maybe he does want a perp walk in order to inflame his supporters. i think he just cannot predict the psychology on this. he will go back and forth and we will see what he does and when he does it. >> danya, given everything you know, and given the sort of position that everyone is in, including meetings with various, you know, institutions and the secret service, the nypd, is it possible there's no indictment -- i mean, is it possible that we are missing something here, i mean, this is overdetermined, and it turns out this is not what it appears? >> anything is possible. it seems highly, highly likely. there is a grand jury of 23 new yorkers, new yorkers -- yeah, famously fine causes for disagreement all the time, but you know, we just made a decorum of them to agree to indict, and an indictment as not is not particularly difficult to obtain for

prosecutors. costello had some criticism that they did not want to hear things, and now the prosecution not only presented one side story, well, that's a prosecution. they get to do that. and so, that is what they did in presenting evidence to the grand jury. and so, that is why it is so unusual for a grand jury to not end up a true bill in -- other words, to not indict. so, given the sequence of events here, and the fact that it appears to have played out, that the defense witness has already testified, and that the prosecution house foregone, calling a rebuttal witness, and it does appear that it's all wrapped up. and that the grand jury will vote on wednesday, again, there's always a possibility. i've seen it maybe once or twice in my 20 something year career where they grand jury declined to indict. in that case, sometimes, if the prosecution believes that that

is a direction that grand jury it's going to go, they can pause, and they can see if there is additional information that the grand jury needs. but based on the fact that grand jury we didn't even want to hear from michael cohen, i think it is unlikely that they will declined to indict here. >> george, over the weekend, that one sort of boast by the ex president about taking our country back, and we should protest -- i think we had a lot of people feeling, you know, kind of reverberations, echoes of january 6th, the will be wild instruction to his followers. you have seen kevin mccarthy, marjorie taylor greene, others tamping down that idea. and i just wonder what you read on that response from republican leaders that they're clearly freaked out and don't think it's a good idea to have donald trump calling for people

out on the streets. were you surprised by that reaction? >> no, i think they should be terrified, as donald trump could bring about -- you know, you may not get a big crowd this week, if he's going to justice in holy square. but he is going to be pounding on this for months, the way he pounded on his election lies for months. and that has an effect. we don't know. and this is the first shoe to drop. we're gonna have more cases. we can have the one in georgia. we are probably going to have a federal case or two. and it's really going to be a long, long haul, where trump is going to be running a campaign, not just for the presidency, but more than anything, it's going to be a campaign against the rule of law, against these prosecutors, you know, challenging, claiming that this is all a giant george soros fixed, and you know, that joe biden and other -- everybody is up to do this when it is completely ridiculous. >> yes, not only that, but the stakes individually, personally for this man, he is 77 years old, i think, will be, you know,

staying out of incarceration, which will clearly be -- i mean, it really puts a fine point on it. george conway and danya perry, thank you so much for joining us tonight. coming up, the response so far for donald trump's call to action. less than nine hole at the ex president's first impeachment on why a trump indictment is important for the rule of law in america, next. se, allergies don't have to be scary. spray flonase sensimist daily for non-drowsy, long lasting relief in a scent-free, gentle mist. (psst psst) flonase. all good. >> after donald trump urged

users on his twitter like account to -- claiming he would be arrested on tuesday, the nypd responded, setting up barriers preparing for the possibility of a large crowd. nbc news senior reporter ben collins has been tracking the response of trump into the dark corners of the internet. he joins me live tonight. ben, what have you found? >> so, i was at that protest that was supposed to happen, but on by the new york young republicans club. i would say, maybe 5 to 1, 10 to 1 reporters to actual people there. as you can see, it was kind of ridiculous. but there were some holdovers from the day before, there was a dry point story hour protest from the day before, put on by the crowd boys proud boys. some of those people were at this exact rally. so, that's what we are seeing now, people who are afraid, all these who are very scooped by the feds, they think this is all a honey pot by the feds, so they will not show up to protest in public on donald trump. >> yes, i have read some reporting from you and others about that sense. and obviously, you know, post january six, there's been 1000

arrests cases brought by the federal government. it does seem, at a basic level of kind of one plus one equals two, determine a fact, manifesting itself in the online activity, off the kinds of people who would be disposed to this sort of thing. is that what you're seeing, as you cover this? >> chris, it's exactly what i'm seeing right now. in fact, it hasn't really stopped all of the big talk in these, all the people calling calling for the assassination of political leaders, talking about going after alvin bragg and all the stuff. so, you will see the same top. but the actual action in real life just is not there for the organization anymore. and i also want to say, maybe they've got bitten in the butt here in little bit by the years of union organizing, to even find out where this protest was happening, he had to sign up by email to the new york republicans called. and people were doing it. so, by the time the actual protest came around, there were 2000 people there and maga heads, and about 200 borders. >> all right, ben collins, who

is keeping track on all of this for us. thanks for sharing that with us. congressman adam schiff served on the january 6th committee. he was the lead manager in the first impeachment of donald trump, the former chairman of the house intelligence committee, also candidate for senate in california. and he joins me now. congressman, first, just your response how you are thinking about eta -- what seems, likelihood that a former president of the united states will be indicted by the manhattan district attorney? >> well, if a grand jury in manhattan has probable cause that donald trump committed a crime, and if they can prove that, he should be indicted. it would be far more dangerous, i think, to the country to essentially immunize presidents and former presidents from harm,

saying that it is too controversial, or it will be too divisive. we went through four years when he was president of the united states, where the justice department took the position which is flawed as a constitutional matter, that you can't prosecute a sitting president. you can prosecute cases a sitting president, even if you were to deter to after they leave office. they're gonna take that position, and you can then take the position, but you also can't prosecute former presidents because that is immunity. the founders would have never subscribed to that. and what's more, if we see anything with donald trump, whenever he is not held accountable, it leads towards and wars forms of abuse of power. so, if they have the evidence, they need to go forward, and they need to plan accordingly, including everyone.

>> your colleagues in the house republican caucus have decried this as politically motivated, you know, that's essentially a kind of repetitive act, as attempts to put their thumb on the scale of the 2024 election. do you have any concerns about the political fallout about this? about making donald trump more of a martyr, about boosting his election chances? >> well, i have a greater concern about letting him off, that is not holding him accountable for potentially criminal conduct. in an ideal world, the most serious charges would have brought in first, and they would have been brought by the justice department. and i have a lot of concern about how the justice department has moved so slowly on this more serious charges really tied to his efforts to overturn the election, and the violence on january 6th. but i am also concerned not as much with what is going on in

new york, that's what's going on in congress now, with chairman jim jordan on the committee where i sit, essentially acting as defense counsel for donald trump, demanding discovery from the manhattan da's office, you know, threatening potentially, implicitly, the use of subpoenas. so, this is a defense council that can actually subpoena records from a prosecutor. this is what we've seen before jim jordan and kevin mccarthy. that is a step into the role of criminal defense counsel for donald trump. they're doing it again, and that, to me, is the more grave danger of the rule of law, kind of interference by congress. >> yes, i saw jim jordan's comments today, and a few other republicans. i believe there is a letter that's i -- don't know it's been posted or circulating, but whether they've written it down or not, they seem to intend to

use their federal oversight abilities, and obviously they have that -- it's given by article one of the constitution. to conduct oversight of the district attorney in new york, it just seems to me as a little bit of a strange thing to do, just constitutionally speaking. it's not really in their purview. >> no, it isn't. and you can see they did issue a letter, how contorted it is, the latter sort of is premised on what federal dollars may be used to help state prosecutors, you know, prosecute crime in their district? it's clearly just trying to find some nexus they could use to interfere with the prosecution of their parties leader. it is a simple as that. you know, it is using the trump playbook once again, and that is when trump gets into criminal trouble, or abuses his office, they try to investigate the investigators. they tried to invert the investigation. that's what they're gonna do. it's what donald trump's gonna do.

it's the same old playbook. and the cost to the country's real. it's going to be diminished confidence in our institutions and the rule of law. that's, you know, that is part of our credit playbook. it is all a witch hunt. it's all a hoax, if you're going after their party's leader. >> let me follow up on something you just said, because i think it is in line with something that i share, and i have articulated on this show. in my humble opinion, the greatest sin of donald trump, whether it is technically a crime or not is his attempt to undo the american republic, and the basic mechanisms of self representation in his pursuit of power. the first violent transfer of power since arguably -- and like you to just say a bit more about what you said about the justice department, because it does strike me as a little strange that the sort of mismatch between the gravity of what is alleged here, from the fact that he's indicted, and the gravity of what frankly we all saw him do, and the january 6th committee exposed, vis-à-vis what happened in

january of 2020. >> look, you know, violating campaign finance laws, engaging in conspiracy to do so it's something the justice department said michael cohen had to go to jail for because he was coordinated and directed in a scheme by individual number one, otherwise known as donald trump. he's serious, and certainly if he's a guy who's coordinated and directed this, then he needs to go to jail, and the guy who did the directing should go to jail. but the serious charges in terms of the nation, efforts to overturn the election, the effort to pressure state legislators, the efforts to pressure the right person, the incitement of a violent attack on the capitol, far more difficult, and it does beg the question, why a that most serious offenses has that justice department taking it so very long? i would agree with you that among the most destructive things of the last administration was, you know, this attack on our institutions, and the transfer of power. but even more broadly, this relentless assault on the truth so, this assault on fact was also so corrosive, and it continues, you know, pushing this george soros conspiracy

theory, starting with the premise that if the party leaders prosecute anyone, it has to be illegitimate. you know, this attack on, essentially, truth and fact is also so destructive because we don't have a shared experience as americans, then how are we supposed to make policy decisions going forward, right? it just push us into political camps. so, i think that has also been super destructive. and you can see it reflected in both the vilification of anthony fauci, this person who symbolizes the factual inquiry, and science, and truth, and the election of george santos, the embodiment of a party who is a thick is simply that truth is second -- >> congressman adam schiff of california, thank you so much for your time tonight, sir. thank you. still to come, as republicans fall over themselves trying to defend their leader, donald trump, a chief republican leader rival seizes the opportunity to take a shot. next. ♪ ♪ ♪

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>> as we await a possible criminal indictment of donald trump, the ex president's supporters are rushing to his defense. there are a few common themes they're hammering into all the

excuses that donald trump should not be prosecuted for paying hush money to an adult film actress. according to the maga mouthpieces, the manhattan district attorney in charge of the investigation is a radical partisan, funded by liberal billionaire george soros, who should be focusing on real crime in new york. >> i'm taking back the idea of indicting a former president of the united states, and at a time when there is a crime wave in new york city, the fact that the manhattan da thinks that indicting president trump's his top priority, i think just tells you everything you need to know about the radical left in this country. >> there should be equal justice in america, and stop going after people because you have political differences. it goes directly against everything that this manhattan da has professed. he brags about lowering felonies to misdemeanors and not prosecuting. we've watched crime in new york where people are afraid to walk the streets.

>> then it happened district attorney is a soros funded prosecutor. and so, he, like other soros funded prosecutors, they weaponize their office to impose a political agenda on society at the expense of the rule of law and public safety. he has downgraded over 50% of the felonies to misdemeanors. he says he doesn't want to even have jail time for the vast, vast majority of crimes. >> now, to be clear, crime in new york city is down. it is down more than 5% overall from last year. shootings are down nearly 15%. homicides in new york city year over year are down nearly 30%, under alvin bragg, among other criminal legal officials in the city. of course, none of that matters, because they're not really talking about the facts. they're not talking about the real human beings that live in new york city. mike pence, kevin mccarthy, ron desantis, it's all just an obstruction.

though the man trump calls meatball ron did make sure to reiterate again what this is all about for his likely opponent for the 2024 republican nomination. >> so, you're talking about this situation with -- i don't know what goes into paying hush money to a porn star to secure silence over some type of alleged affair. i just can't speak to that. >> donald trump was less and then used in that crowd responding to the dig from desantis with this quote, ron would probably find out about his this sometime in the future when he is unfairly and illegally attacked by a woman, or possibly a man, with false accusations. but then the man who may soon become the first former president to face criminal charges, deleted the first draft, not because it was too far, but because he wanted to post this one, adding a reference to a rumor that desantis partied with underage girls while he was a teacher at

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>> tonight, with the de facto leader of the party facing the possibility of eminent arrest, republicans are rushing to trump's defense, perhaps not surprisingly. i'm joined now by michael steele, former chairman of the rnc. and mona charen, policy editor of the the bulwark and host of beg to differ podcast. michael, first, just your

reaction to what we've seen in the last 24 hours from donald trump's sort of posting about, you know, his imminent, possible arrest or indictment to the reactions of others in the field to congressional republicans. what do you make of it? >> so, chris, you know me, i'm gonna take a step back into the weekend. and i think donald trump basically paid everybody for the suckers he thinks they are. he floats this thing now with no corroborating evidence, certainly no indication from the da's office that this tuesday would be the day that they would come after him, if you will. despite the fact that the grand jury had not done an indictment, there was still at least one witness that they want to talk to. and yet, everybody did the thing donald trump knew they

would do, freak out. and the press went, oh my god, this is a story, let's lock it down. and the gop fell into form, as we knew they would. they went into, immediately into a defensive crouch, and that is the position that they are very familiar with when it comes to donald trump, and they will remain in that position throughout this whole thing. so, nothing about this surprises me. when it happens, just look for more drama, more histrionics, and more defense. and we have to be sober now recovering and telling of this story because of not just what it means, but the implications for what it may mean, going into 2024. >> mona, what do you think? >> well, i am worried about this being the first indictment because as you hinted earlier, of all the crimes and offenses that trump has committed against this country, this is

possibly among the most trivial. this is, you know, about sex. this is about a payoff to a porn star. you know, it is lewd, it's disgusting, it's low. it's horrid. but is it important in the grand scheme of things? not compared with attempting to, you know, disrupt our democracy, which is the great crime that trump committed. and so, i am worried that this seems to come first. and if it does, as michael said, you know, all the republican gears will come into play. and everyone will say, this is a political prosecution, and that -- you know, by the way, it's very abusing that they're saying that -- kevin mccarthy is saying you shouldn't use politics to go after your political enemies. you shouldn't use the law to go

after political enemies. meanwhile, comer's -- and jim jordan, sending a letter saying they're gonna investigate the prosecutor. yeah, in any event -- so, my worry, chris, is that the gears will start going. people will get extremely excited. they will start talking about the corruption of the judicial system, all for the sake of trivial offense. and then, when the big guns come next, when say, georgia indites on attempting to disrupt the election, or when there is a federal prosecution for january 6th, some average voters are gonna say, oh, they they go again. you know, they're going after trump again. they keep going after trump. and i am afraid it may bring the law into disrepute. so, i'm not happy about this being -- if it comes to pass, i'm not happy about this being the first prosecution. if this comes third, no

problem. but coming first, i'm very worried about it. >> you know, i share exactly those words and misgivings, partly about the timing, and quite consistent on this show about what, to me, is the great sin of donald trump, right? the one that stands above all others. that will be the first lie i suspect, probably, you know, in the history books about him. unless he doesn't do something worse, and let's just hope he doesn't get there. the one thing i will say about this all will, though, to michael's point, it's about stepping back. but i do think there's a bit sometimes, post-2016, i think a default assumption that all attention on donald trump benefits him, and even negative attention does. and i think a lot of conservatives, a lot of republicans believe that. a lot of liberals, a lot of

people view that. so, i don't think that's quite been borne out, which is to say, i think you could twist yourself into knots about what will or will not benefit donald trump. but i think, you know, michael steele, i'll say this. and it's interesting that desantis took that shot today, right? if the news today where that barack obama were about to be possibly indicted for a hush money payment he made to an adult film actress, while, you know, his wife was nursing his newborn child -- first of all, it would be a breaking news story that would be wall-to-wall everywhere. and second of all, i don't think everyone -- you know, no one in that situation should be like, well, i think this is probably gonna help barack obama -- [laughter] it's only in the weird particularities on the donald trump universe that sort of like, well, how is this going to help him comes around. you know? >> i think that is so well put -- [laughter] and it's true. i mean, in any other universe,

this is not a good thing. there's nothing good about any of this narrative, right? i need, particularly that he was ex president, you know, having a little side thing going on with a porn star, while my wife was in labor. not a good narrative for a politician or any person. but here's the rub, donald trump, and he's made an arc out of this. >> yes -- >> and that's the bottom line. that's why i made the point i made at the beginning. he knows it, he just throws a little colonel out there. oh, they're gonna come to arrest me. and makes everybody freak out from across the spectrum, why? because of the drama narratives around it. and that's what he does. so, we just need to be cognizant of that and be -- >> in the past, trump has been able to say, my grievances are your grievances to his base. it is not clear that that will continue to work as people begin to factor in, well, you know, do we want to have this kind of candidate for president in 2024 and all this baggage?

it's really not clear how it's going to play out this time around. >> michael steele and mona charen, thank you both very much. still ahead, as we await the possibility of the first ever indictment of the former president, jon meacham joins me on this possibly history making moment, next. ♪ ♪ ♪

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♪ ♪ ♪ >> if donald trump is indicted this week, it will be the first time in u.s. history that a former president has been charged with a crime. joining me now is pulitzer prize winning biographer, presidential historian jon meacham. he also advises president biden on historical matters and major speeches. jon, in historical context, there is a strange juxtaposition between the specifics of the alleged crime here, the fact that he's indicted for, and the scale of some of the wrongdoing, i think, that trump has done in terms of the scope of the american history and the constitution. how do you see this being remembered historically, it's significant? >> well, i think we're in the beginning of this drama. we would hope to be towards the end of it, but i don't think we

should count on that. one of the things you are just talking about, you know, the basic rules of american politics, when donald trump is involved, had been suspended. this is not 1974. this is not even 1998. this is just a different analogy for a new world, and i think we have to keep in mind some of the perennial forces that we've seen elsewhere in the world, autocratic forces, a tendency toward a cult of personality, those are the things that are sweeping the land here, it sounds rather grand, but it's virtually true. and what i think we have to understand and think about both within a possible indictment in new york, the georgia case, the other new york case, and then, the largest question which is, what are we going to do when a huge chunk of one of the two major parties in the united states of america would still walked through fire for this guy, right? i mean, that is a central

problem that no legal action can take care of. so, all those two questions, i think it is incumbent on those of us who think that trumpism is a virus that has to be confronted. it is incumbent on us to tell a different story, to tell the story that in fact, the constitution matters. the rule of law matters. the declaration of independence, when it set out our standards, and we try to reach it, which is as old a standard in american life, as jefferson to martin luther king. if we don't have that story as a competing narrative, then we're going to be locked in this illicit reality show. and the problem with it is that it is not a show. we have seen that on january 6th. we've seen it again and again. and i believe that this

generation, again, this is going to sound a grand, but i believe firmly that this generation will be judged by our success or our failure at standing up to a totalitarian impulse in the united states. >> you know, one of the things that i've been trying to work my mind around is the rule of law, right? and the competing stories about its usage, right? so at one level, trump and his followers tell of the story of american decline as represented in an abuse of the rule of law to bring down a political enemy, which is a thing that does happen in countries that are in democratic decline. i think others, myself included, see trump as an example of a sort of permanent exception, right? to the rule of law, that he escapes from accountability precisely because of his either legal or political power. and those are the sort of two stories that are being told fundamentally here. i mean, ultimately one of them,

i think, will be the enduring now that is the story that we tell about this era. >> absolutely. here's the thing about the right-wing narrative about this. let the law unfold. thomas payne, you know, before we were even a country, said the king is not the law in america. the law is america. so, there is an indictment, that's not the end of the story. there is gonna be a judge, and there's gonna be a jury, and there's going to be a trial. and let that process unfold. and an indictment is not a necessary weaponization. and that's a matter of prosecutorial discretion. and i'm not gonna go into the caveat about oh, this is the one that started with, and all that.

you know, life doesn't work like that as we've seen endlessly here. obviously, the attempted theft of a presidential election and an insurrection outweigh this. but here is the thing. the rule of law moves slowly. it grinds slowly. and that's what -- it's gonna have to be patient, but we're gonna have to be persistent in standing up to the broad effects of trumpism. >> all right, jon meacham, thank you so much for your time tonight. that is all in on this monday night. the rachel maddow show starts right now. good evening, rachel. i appreciate it, my friend. and thanks to you at home for joining us this hour. we're really happy to have you here. do you want to see a cute picture?an cuteness is in the eye of the beholder, of course. and this is a picture of a guy, and i'm not saying the guy in