your brother has landed in the dark lands. they're under bowser's control. hang on, luigi. yes! fire! only in theaters april 5th. rated pg. good evening. i'm ari melber anchoring our

special coverage of this escalating trump probe in new york and tonight right now you're watching a special live edition of "the beat." we're following the pressure donald trump which actually exploded from the arrest talk this weekend to today's blockbuster testimony before the grand jury? some out of court-statements that broke within the last hour. moments ago this trump-aligned witness speaking out. >> my only mission there today was to tell the truth about what michael cohen was saying at any point in time. michael cohen decided on his own, that's what he told us, on his own to see if he could take care of this. >> is that what he told us? was all of the remarks made factual? mr. michael cohen is here to respond in a moment. this is not just journalism. this is aspects of the probe spilling out because mr. costello did speak to the grand jury today that's why he was so newsworthy. mr. cohen remained a key grand jury witness in a case that donald trump now says will lead to donald trump's indictment.

so what you're about to see tonight in all seriousness not because it's on msnbc and not because it's "the beat," because quite frankly because of the people involved, mr. cohen, will be a part of this legal history and a part of the path that donald trump himself claims will lead to his own indictment. that is just moment away. we always want to give you the context here, the reporting and the legal facts, and i want to chart for you before we bring in our guest, how the president of what comes next hit like a bombshell over this weekend. >> we have breaking news just now, former president donald trump posting on truth social that he will be arrested tuesday. >> protest. take our nation back. >> he's hoping to create fear that there will be another january 6th-type event or his followers will shoot up another fbi office. >> local and federal law enforcement are on alert as donald trump is again calling himself a victim.

>> anticipation is incredibly high. will a grand jury decide to indict former president donald trump? >> that is what spilled out because of donald trump's statements on saturday. his claim that he's bracing for an arrest that will now come on his time line tomorrow. now that is the first time anyone who served in the white house has ever said anything like that and it is a huge deal and it connects with what we know to be an open probe and that's his side and we'll report it. the d.a. is still taking testimony as of this afternoon and there's no clear reporting on a timeline, if the d.a. indicts, when that will come and d.a. is ramping up attacks. authorities are taking security precautions to protect the area in the event of any indictment given trump's calls for protests. here is some of the new barricading that we witnessed and our cameras caught just outside of the office of the manhattan d.a. there's also a new message from d.a. bragg to his entire staff addressing security concerns vowing want to be intimidated by

interference efforts and that is a clear rebuttal to trump. that's the new york probe, and again, before we formalize the degradation of the rule of law in our nation, you have a sitting d.a. having to take these steps, physical, security and talking to his own team and staff because of a threat, not from a mobster or a terrorist, but because what's been identified clearly as a threat by a person under investigation who led an insurrection, who is the former president. not normal. now that's not the only thing going on. trump's lawyers filing this new separate attack on any possible criminal charges against trump in georgia are clearly sides from both sides of these cases are heating up and you take them all together and i've been leading special coverages this afternoon and i did want to take the time to share this thought with you in the beginning of what is a normal hour together. you take it together and what do you see? this is a legal process that has at times seemed to lurch as

donald trump had so much damning evidence and prosecutors circled trump only to see a delay, a backing off that sometimes goes on for years. and yet right now here we are, this same process hitting a fever pitch that apparently has donald trump rattled, who predicts their own arrest. it has his lawyers taking the prospect of indictment in new york seriously and the prospect of a new case opening up in georgia seriously and that's what links the new, unusual filing in georgia where the d.a. has want made a move yet against trump to the sudden move in new york today and we only learned this weekend about the individual i just played some audio from, mr. costello who said he advised michael cohen in that key time and also, of course, is there at the request of trump's lawyers and represents people like mr. giuliani. there he is before the grand jury today, testifying for trump which is part of the process. a person facing possible charges, you should know, can

legally request a witness appear for them under new york law and that itself was not some giant surprise. we had collected information that trump's new york lawyers were, of course, talking to the d.a., and i asked joe's current counsel joe tackopena. >> we are shocked that this has gotten this far. >> you're telling me, here's this misdemeanor and it's not a strong campaign finance case. did she say stuff like that? >> mr. tacopena told me and also confirmed in that interview that he and his co-counsel had met with the d.a. you say what's the point of a meeting like that? today shows what the point of a meeting like that is. you make your case and sometimes you learn where they're headed and you say did you speak to mr. costello, we know new york law and we want him to be able to testify which he did today. now that is a sign that the new

york d.a. at least on that issue is following the law and forwarding this potential defendant their rights. costello clearly hammered cohen today. he did that in the grand jury, we know from his own account and that's his whole purpose and did it in public. he also said cohen told him he didn't have much on donald trump. if you look at headlines like this. he also says he has all of this evidence and spoke about that in public. mr. cohen will join us live tonight for his first on-camera response to all of that, both of what he's telling the grand jury and what he thinks his former boss is doing down there in florida, posting about getting arrested and what he thinks the public and the world needs to know about what mr. costello alleged, some of it quite fiery and some of it quite negative against mr. cohen tonight. where are we on this monday evening as we begin a new week in america? the former president says he'll be arrested tomorrow and he's calling for protests which echo his prior calls for gatherings

that led to an insurrection. the authorities, as i told you, are securing facilities against any possible violence and the republican speaker of the house does urge calm, and that's a break from what trump sounds and the lawyer is testifying against him as the current lawyers blame the last ones and not to make light of any of it, but everything i just said, that's just in new york. meanwhile, georgia lawyers for trump are on the attack against a case that hasn't been filed and you go to the d.c. federal case, trump's lawyer in further trouble in the last few days is looking at the kind of proceeding that pierces attorney-client privilege against donald trump and could lead to a separate and new lawyer indictment. what we see is the portrait of donald trump, a man on the run, who has been running away for a long time, but who may learn you cannot run away from yourself. i want to bring in former acting assistant general from the obama

administration neal katyal. your thoughts as we look at all of this. >> well, you're right, ari, that this all became a fever pitch over the weekend and i would just urge all of our viewers to be sober and wait to see what happens. i certainly can't wait to hear from mr. cohen, and i am so grateful for you for bringing him to our viewers in the next hour. i think that's very important, but the moment right now calls for a pause here. we don't know whether this indictment on tuesday is going to actually happen. we know donald trump tweeted it, but i've never personally believed a word out of donald trump's mouth and i'm not about to start now. there are indications that, you know, the grand jury and the d.a.'s ramped up its investigation and it looks like there may be an indictment and i think we'll have to see what happened to see what happened. today's move to have costello, trump's attorney call before the grand jury. it's a fairly ill-advised move

and it is not clear he'll have the ability that donald trump would want. >> they hadn't represented ruly as giuliani and i don't think a lawyer with red credibility issue attack another lawyer with criminal issues. the other thing is they brought him before the grand jury, costello, and they had lined up michael cohen to be a rebuttal witness and i'm sure we'll hear about this when michael comes on the air, but cohen didn't even testify today. there is some reporting that he might testify on wednesday before the grand jury, and we are working independently to verify that. it doesn't look like this was some sort of big move that changed the game. indeed, if it really were a game changer, it was a strategic mistake on trump's part because you want to save that kind of

testimony for trial and here by previewing it all for the prosecution. my guess is this is more about politics, more about delay and less about the actual legal complexities of the case, but time will tell. >> as you say, time will tell, and it could be a move as you've seen before to delay because i said tuesday and see how i'm running things and fact-checking yourself. oh, see the d.a. didn't get me on tuesday. you're the one who said tuesday. i do want to call attention to the speaker of the house. i know it's a low bar, but a necessary one, and the speaker is breaking with trump and publicly said people shouldn't protest the indictment and of course, people have free speech rights and he also said this, take a look. >> i don't think people should protest this, no. i think president trump if you talk it him he doesn't believe they should either.

he's not talking in a harmful way. nobody should harm one another over this. >> what do you see, is there any evolution given the insurrection? >> there are other republicans who are being far more misleading, obviously mccarthy was playing the political game of giving trump credit, and it's like a high school kid, it's kind of ridiculous, but i'm glad to see something there by him. i have to say that and thank god that he's finally saying something like this two days later. and the real place i think this lies, the blame lies on donald trump who tweeted on saturday, go and protest that have had that history let alone a former leader of the government, be

salutely, we would make sure it was a non-violent protest. it's been 48 hours and i don't think trump has said that. that is trump again putting himself over the american people because a responsible leader, responsible official would say, yeah, you know, i'm really upset about this. i get that. go protest, fine, but don't do the violence that you've done before. >> i've got about a minute and then i'll bring out michael cohen who we're all waiting to hear from. my last question to you, neal, unusual filing in georgia. there's not even a trump case to file to because it's so early. do you view that as a sign of strength or weakness and is it possibly related to new york. this is all bark and no bite and he's said very little and look, if he's worried about the grand jury and the investigation there is a place to prove it up which

is at the trial if there is an indictment, but to do it ahead of time without seeing what the prosecution has, it just reeks of desperation, and he should have waited until there actually was an indictment. the optics are terrible for him. we've all heard the audiotape, go find me 7,430 votes and they've metticiously been going over the evidence for a long time. the place to prove that up is the trial and my gut is this is about delay and trump will lose this quickly, but then file an appeal and then take it to the georgia supreme court or something like that and that's what it's about. it's not about it. >> neil katyal on a big news night, thank you for kicking us off. coming up, we turn to the guest that everyone wants to hear from, the witness in the probe. michael cohen joins me next. pre michael cohen joins me next.

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we are back with a key grand jury witness in the probe that donald trump now says will lead, he claims, to his arrest. i am joined by former trump lawyer michael cohen. he hosts the mea culpa podcast and author of the book "revenge," how donald trump weaponized the u.s. you have been in the news a lot. thank you for being here on "the beat" tonight. >> always good to see you, ari.

>> you went down there today. did you testify? >> i did not. i was asked to be a potential rebuttal witness. the prosecutors determined that my rebuttal was not necessary and so i was released. >> not necessary today according to them. mr. costello said several things. i'll start with a fairly narrow one. >> he sure did. he said a lot of things today. >> as a narrow matter he asserted that he says you are testify again on wednesday. is that true? >> so very much like most of everything that came out his mouth he lacks for any sense of veracity here. there's no accuracy to his statement. i have not been asked to come back on wednesday and moreover, something that you would know, as well. prosecutors will not tell you if you are or are not coming back. they just don't do this. they'll let you know at the last moment or at least the day before. so how he has this specific information, just goes to show you he is exactly who he is and

that, of course, would be rudy giuliani's attorney. >> in this process and i reminded viewers there is a possibility for someone who may be facing indictment to ask for people to go forward so that may be the way that we're hearing from him. do you know about any future testimony from yourself, him or any other witnesses or at this point you are just on standby? >> again, i wouldn't know about anybody else. throughout this entire process i didn't know who was coming in nor would the prosecutors tell you. >> yeah. >> i can tell you emphatically that i have not been asked to come back on wednesday as of moment. >> when he says he was speaking with you and advising you was he your lawyer at the time? >> no. in fact, there are so many things about his statement which is untrue, first and foremost that i reached out to them. i didn't know bob costello from a hole in the wall. in fact, the senior partner of the firm jeffrey citron is the

one who introduced us and said we should speak and so we set up a meeting. they came. i think either they brought me a retainer or they said they were sending one or a letter of engagement. i never signed it. he was never my lawyer. >> he was not at that time your authorized lawyer. then he said separate three that you waived attorney-client privilege. is that true in. >> that's another one. if, nah fact, i waived attorney-client privilege i'd like to know when, how, where? i don't recall waiving anything, but -- again, this is -- this is -- i don't know what he's talking about. >> did you sign anything when you were deal web sdny like that? >> not that i recall. >> let's play this part. >> yeah. >> by the way, he's got his point and you will respond because he said this was, quote, stupid, et cetera. let's listen. >> they notified me that michael cohen had executed a waiver of the attorney-client privilege

for reasons i have no idea. frankly, it was a very stupid move by michael cohen because now we are able to tell the truth about what michael cohen was saying at any point in time starting in april of 2018. so that's why i wanted to get those materials that i gave to the u.s. attorney's office and sat for a two-hour interview with them back in 2019 after which you may have noticed the southern district of new york didn't do any business with michael cohen. there's a reason for that. he's totally unreliable. >> you get the benefit to respond. >> the reason the southern district of new york didn't do anything with me, read jeffrey berman's book and you know the answer that they were being pressured by the justice for which to do things. bob costello, if he was any more imaginary in the statements that are coming out of his mouth he'd be a number one new york times best-selling fiction author. i don't know what he's talking about in terms of signing anything with the southern

district of new york. i'd like to see it. if in fact, was there something that was signed, perfect i will own the fact that i'm making a mistake, but -- >> you don't remember that. >> not to mention, let's not forget, the southern district on a friday night contacted after meeting with my lawyer at the time. not him, he was never my lawyer and told me that you have to come in on monday and plead guilty or we're filing an 80-page indictment that will include my wife. so i don't know when he's talking about this meeting that i had with the southern district of new york. i would like to know the answer. >> and you mentioned that, and this is something that is worth responding once, we're not going to be airing it over and over, but you and i know as lawyers and experience you've been in, there are people who face very serious pressure. that's why it's called pressure and whether what they say under pressure is 100% true forever or a sense of their anxiety, i don't know, here's what he said about that because you're reminding folks that there was this idea that they would go

after you and your family, et cetera. here's what he said and it includes again and there are people who do have mental health challenges or they do talk about suicide and that alone doesn't mean you're not reliable in the case. but this is the allegation he makes. >> april of 2018, april 17th, i believe, we met with michael cohen for the first time at the regency hotel at his request. michael was in a manic state. he told us that he had contemplated suicide, that he'd been up on the roof of the regency hotel the weekend before, seriously considering jumping off because he couldn't face the enormity of the legal problems he knew were coming his way. >> is that true? >> parts of that were actually true. i was incredibly distraught. i have never in my life had an issue with law enforcement. actually one time in 1985 i was driving back to college. i was going 13, 14 miles an hour

over the speed limit and i got a speeding ticket, the one and only in my entire life. other than that, i've never had run-ins with law enforcement. >> it almost seems like in this pressure you shared or confided in mr. costello. >> yeah. >> now he's trying to say that because you were stressed and i think we can -- everyone can judge first, he seems to be trying to use that against the rest of the story. is that fair? >> no, it's not. it's a typical donald j. trump play out of the playbook. how do you muddy the water as best as he possibly can, disparage them. they did the same thing to cassidy hutchinson and did the same thing to anyone and everyone that is for the truth, and the beauty, the beauty that i have is i have facts. i have truth. i have the documentation. let me rephrase that. the district attorney has the

documentation in order to validate every single statement that i've made and to basically dispel anything that bob costello has to say which is probably, again, why they didn't need me for rebuttal. >> my last question on mr. costello's approach and then i have another factual piece. when you watch that, what does it make you think of him? >> i think he's a clown which is why after the repeated attempts to get on my legal team or to be my attorney, which of course, was all directed by rudy and those -- be there in washington, d.c., at the time i had no interest and there's even statements of me hanging up on him and we had arguments on the phone where i want to be left alone by you. >> you think mr. giuliani and others may have been trying to use him to play like he was on your side and use that against

you which it seems like that's what he's doing today. >> yes. it seems like he has to. >> he's invited to the table. >> he should. >> here's some of what he claims, he, like mr. tacopina, you were out here doing this by yourself. this is all on the payment. let's take a look. >> that's not a lie. >> that's not a lie? >> that's not a lie? >> did you know about this? put the paper down. let me add to this. >> did you know about this? no, i don't. >> here's why it's not a lie. because it was a confidential settlement, so if he acknowledged that he would be violating the confidential settlement. is it the truth? of course, it's not the truth? was he supposed to tell the truth? he would be. >> violation of the agreement to tell the truth. he was abiding that by not only his rights, but stormy daniels' rights. >> mr. tacopina there, it's his

argument that of course, he says, quote, of course donald trump didn't tell the truth and he says basically this was the way they were going to keep it secret and mr. costello today did say, this is the first time i had you on since then and i want to give you the benefit of responding. they say you just cooked this all up. donald trump didn't know about it. you did it for whatever your reasons are and they also say it wasn't a crime, and if there was anything wrong, that's on you, sir. what is your response to them saying you went rogue. >> that's the defense they'll put forward. it will fail and fail miserably on its face. first of all, i didn't sleep with stormy daniels. donald did. second of all, there were notifications that came into the trump organization about her. not filing a lawsuit, mr. costello, facts do matter especially on this show. she wasn't filing a lawsuit. she was going to go public with the information very much -- >> at a key time for the campaign. >> at a very key time for the

campaign, as mcdougal, you know, the "access hollywood" comments and so on. his, again, his facts are all twisted and very much like tacopina, when you come on a show whether it's your show or you will stand in front of a microphone, facts matter. >> yeah. >> and it's important that you have the right facts and with mr. tacopina, of course, he lied, but it doesn't matter. now you just -- you just now put your client behind the 8 ball on that one, too. >> mr. costello, what he also said, quote, cohen decided on his own to take care of this. i said where did you get the money? he said i took out a loan because i wanted to keep it secret from my own wife and from melania. he claims he has evidence and he hasn't released it and he claims to have evidence that would prove this and at the time you said that. >> it's absolutely not true. i don't know what conversations he's referring to.

we talked about the case. we talked about certain documentation while we were there. it was not a multiple-hour conversation and so on. it was relatively quick from what i remember, maybe 30, 45 minutes at best. short of that, again, he's making up so many stories here because he's playing to a party of one. he's doing what everybody does and, listen, i said the same thing to jim jordan and mark meadows and i said i know the game that you're playing. i know the play that you're playing because i wrote the playbook. >> it seems -- >> he's doing the same thing, by the way. >> it seems like a potential hole in their case, as you said. if this is charged and we'll talk more about what donald trump is up to if you will, if you stick around, but if this is charged then you have a case. the case is what they did and their defense is partly what we're hearing is michael went off and went rogue and did this all by himself. if somebody goes rogue on donald

trump and does a bunch of costly things over here does donald trump pay them back with his own money? >> donald trump doesn't pay anybody back for anything, whether you're rogue or not rogue. it's the stupidest argument. the problem is bob costello is for whatever the reason may be indebted to rudy giuliani. he was his mentor. he was his partner, i don't know what he was, but they are very, very close. rudy, of course, is now again still trying to protect donald because their interests are aligned. so bob costello comes forth making these wild, crazy, stupid allegations which are all disprovable based upon the documentary evidence and all of the information that's currently in the hands of the d.a. i am absolutely 100% certain that everything that -- pretty much almost everything that bob costello said will be once again proven to be inaccurate as it relates to me. i've been going through this nonsense for six years and the

lies that were told about me from prague all of the way to, you know, going there with their 10 million to pay off compromise -- >> you are saying some very important things and definitely newsworthy as you say in the business. stay with me. i have a short break. i want to bring in a prosecutor. michael cohen will be back in 60 seconds. be back in 60 seconds.

a special coverage continues and you can see who we're back with. michael cohen still with us and former watergate special prosecutor nick akreman. thanks to both of you for being here. michael was talking about the newsworthy claims from the trump side. >> we may need an hour. >> exactly. >> we also brought in mr. akreman who has been in these kind of cases and the cases that touch on people who are in government and have political following are more complex and the back and forth. i wanted to bring you in and mr. cohen agreed to that to bring

your legal lens on what has transpired today. your view of this back and forth with a witness that under new york rules as we understand you're being brought in as a legal right of donald trump, a courtesy to that side or until the grand jury hears that and what did you hear from mr. cohen? where i start with this is the mueller report because the mueller report laid out a witness tampering plot by donald trump, basically to keep michael in line with donald trump. >> through whom? >> through -- through rudy giuliani and bob costello. >> bob costello i know, we were in the u.s. attorney's office and he's a good guy and it seems like he was wittingly or unwittingly part of a plot to keep michael cohen in line. >> how many years did you overlap with him? >> a couple of years. >> all of these new york lawyers, michael.

>> i'll have you break it down. he's right here. >> it's simple. let me put the headline up, nick. >> yep. >> the headline was that mr. costello among other things contacted one of mr. trump's lawyers trying to see, allegedly, if he could arrange a pardon for mr. cohen. this came up in the mueller report, we have some of the evidence. why does that matter? >> well, that's all part of the story. it really starts on april 9th when the search warrant is executed and only a few days after that donald trump calls him according to the mueller report and he can confirm this and told him that, you know, he was just checking in to see if he was okay and he encouraged michael to hang in there. then he got calls from other people, friends of donald trump who called up and basically told him to keep in line, including alan weisselberg who i believe also called him during that period of time. one of the people that was involved period. >> so i'm going to do my job --

>> cooking the books. >> if someone is watching, okay, a lot of calls. what's wrong with that? >> what's wrong with it is it comes to a point when michael meets with costello who is talking to rudy giuliani who is talking to donald trump, and it all comes back to donald trump that michael is on board and that he's staying with the team, and the next day, the day after that meeting occurs on april 17th donald trump starts tweeting out that michael's not going to flip. that he's with the team, that he's on board. >> so an effort then to abuse government power to thwart a probe. >> right. that's exactly what happens here. >> let me get michael in. >> let's not forget, at that point donald trump was dangling pardons on television, i can shut this down tomorrow. i'm the president. i can do whatever i want. i can shut this whole thing down and it's called the pre-pardon

despite the fact he doesn't know what he's talking about and all of a sudden they're now on television so that -- because i wasn't the only one that was going through some issues at the time, they're now throwing it out there for anybody to see. >> do you recall costello being a part of that? >> well, not at that point in time, but he ultimately became -- >> later? >> yes, a significant party to this. >> so what does it tell you, first michael and then nick, that this is who they brought out? i just heard from a different lawyer who doesn't have a brief for or against you, he said if this is the best they can do it's a hail mary at the end. they bring this guy who has at least been on both sides of it to attack you in the grand jury. what do you make of costello being who they brought out today? >> because there's not another dope that's willing to put his back side on the line for donald. for whatever the reason costello has elected to do this, i don't know. i mean, the guy has a career. he's got a profession, but he also has this allegiance to rudy

and of course, to donald that he's willing to go out there and make these false statements. >> nick? >> i think this was absolutely a dumb, stupid move because if i were alan bragg i would be bringing out all of these facts about all of the conversations that costello had with michael, all of the conversations that costello had with rudy giuliani. what rudy giuliani said that donald trump said and what he conveyed to donald trump and then i would wind up indicting donald trump for witness tampering and obstruction of justice. i mean, the mueller report in itself is enough basis to do that, but now they put forward a witness who is right in the middle of the witness tampering plot to come in and give exculpatory everyday. >> you wrote about this in the book. this goes to how donald trump uses people and called reliance. if i rely on a lawyer i can do

anything. that's not true, a, and b, in this case you have history and what donald trump's lawyers are laying out today in your case which is now years old is being replayed in real time in the doj classified documents case which is separate, but a judge just pierced attorney-client privilege because he was using one of his lawyers there who was familiar with your history and apparently didn't learn the lesson that it will get you in trouble. this is the last sound bite i want to play from mr. tacopina. this is in brute form this reliance argument. let's take a look. >> michael cohen, regardless of what we all know about him now and hindsight is 20/20, is a fraud, is a liar, a convicted perjurer in the trump world and outside of the trump world with the medallions and all of that kind of stuff, was his lawyer at the time and advised him that this was the proper way to do this to protect himself and his family from embarrassment. it's as simple as that. >> shame on joe tacopina.

first and foremost, was there no fraud in the medallions. i don't know what he's talking about. second of all, this whole thing of lying and my credibility, i've even said this to you and to others on this station, what did i lie about? and the lie to congress on the 1,001 violation i pled guilty was the number of times i spoke to donald trump about the failed real estate project at the direction of and for the benefit of and in coordination with donald trump. i said three, and the real answer was ten and if you think that will stop alvin bragg or anyone on using me on credibility? it's not. and there are so many things that will -- not only will come up, but have already drip, drip, dripped out regarding credibility, testified before seven congressional committee, the attorney general, the district attorney and mueller, not one person has turned around so far and said that anything that i told them has not been

accurate and truthful and relevant to the investigation. >> when you see donald trump on saturday try to announce his own arrest, what do you see him doing there? >> this is really panic and fear. he knows what's coming on tuesday, wednesday, whatever. he knows what's coming down the pike, and what he's trying to do is these trying to get the advanced jump on to the story. we did the exact same thing at the trump university case with schneiderman when we found out he was filing and before he filed we jumped on to it and it's a typical jump play. >> nick? >> it absolutely is. the fact that michael might have lied beforehand is irrelevant to whether he's telling the truth now. in you go to the jury, the prosecutors are not presenting michael cohen as a choir boy. sure, he lied before, but he lied for this defendant who is sitting in the dock, and if you look at the other evidence and

you look into the do you means and you take into account the other testimony you will conclude that michael cohen is telling the truth, and the key is the corroboration and the support that they have that what michael is saying is absolutely spot on. >> and if you cancel out whatever the former president posted based on what we know that the grand jury was still taking witness testimony as of this afternoon, if they were to form an indictment, what is the time line for that? >> oh, i still think it could be in a couple of days. i don't think it will be too far off. >> do you have a view for that? >> i do, but i'm going to keep it to myself. >> understood. this has been a useful, informational process and part of my job is mr. costello can come on and take the questions. mr. cohen who has proved to be a very important witness in the eyes of this manhattan d.a. and this grand jury, thank you for being here. >> let's not forget about the attorney general's case, as well. >> there's another case out there. there seems to be another case out there, nick akreman, as we

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all right. are you still with me? it is a pretty busy, packed news night. the pressure on the former president is not simply legal and there are wider questions after all this, about the future of the republican party which

has face electorally two disappointing election results in a row saddled by trump and his maga kind of politics, and many are eyeing a trump-style republican for this next gop primary, ron desantis. but some of the republican party's brightest stars have been hard lined conservatives and take the governor of ohio, john kasich with the leader on criminal justice reform and a republican that first took on trump in the first 2016 race. >> i beat hillary clinton by more than anybody, by 11 points and the reason it happens in one -- >> one poll. >> the debates are the dumbest thing going, i'll tell you why. >> you can't get things done when all you're doing is yelling and screaming at people and dividing people. >> i believe the political parties are disintegrating before our very eyes. >> you wrote me off in the south and then you wrote me off in super tuesday. let me tell you this, i will win ohio. >> big news from the critical

state of ohio. abc news can project that john cassic has defeated donald trump in his own state. >> in america conservatism should mean that some rise with conservative principles, but everyone has a chance to rise. >> that's a view of conservatism from governor john kasich and i'll remind folks he knows the whole terrain pretty well and served as a congressman for close to two decades and knowing many of the people who come up in the chairperson positions and two-term governor as mentioned and the way many non-political junkies learned about him, that presidential run. the governor and congressman joins us now for his beat debut and his new role as an msnbc analyst. an old in the world tonight, but you're here with us. we appreciate that. thanks for being here. >> i was listening to the circus and you can't even say it's a circus. it's a three or four-ring circus from what i can tell as i listen

to you. as the head of the big top, amazing. >> okay, i like the way you put it. i imagine we'll get to that. we have been on some of that for the hour. before we get over to that story, i did want to get your views on what we might call conservatism in america right now. as noted, you have been a leader. there's more than just one part of the party or the loudest part of the party. where do you see it headed as we begin these conversations? >> i think right now, i can't figure out what the party stands for. you know, and they have not been able to put out ideas that are a growing set of ideas. how do you grow the party, how do you project hope? you know, look, when we think about donald trump, we think about what i call negative populist. that is somebody who says the reason you're not doing well is somebody else took your stuff. i have considered myself to be a positive populist. hey, you have problems, we're going to sit down together and figure them out. so the party really doesn't have

the reform positions, and there's some positions we ought to stick to. we shouldn't raise taxes every time we turn around, we can talk about silicon valley bank any time you want to, but sometimes regulations will kill. the fact of the matter is that spending is out of control. but there's other issues that are really critical. in order to understand them, you have to listen to people. a rising cost of health care, the rising cost of prescription drugs. what are we going to do about the border, about immigration? what are we going to do about trade, what are you going to do about military reform? but i don't hear the party out there talking about any of the solutions. most of what they do today is to criticize and so i think the party would be better off if in fact they could clearly talk about what they are for. and ari, right now on this issue of the debt ceiling and everybody is waiting for their budget, you don't write a budget in five minutes. i spent many decades working on understanding how government

works. you don't just throw something out there and think it's going to stick because you get yourself in more trouble if you don't consider exactly what the impact is on people, who is it going to hurt, who is it going to help. a party right now is just adrift. and perhaps it will get fixed. i don't know. >> do you feel the incentives have drastically changed? as students of politics you say there's always been this and that. there's a financial pressure, there's the way the media works. but when we even see who seems to be emerging in the house, we all followed that speaker's race for mccarthy, we saw what a couple members could do. you were there a long time working with people. refrex my memory if i'm wrong, i don't remember you matt gaetzing on the floor. >> at the time, what i suggested there is there be a coalition of republicans and democrats who would be able to marginalize the extremists on both sides. so you could begin to govern from the middle. i put out two tweets about that and i think i had literally 9 million impressions once that

tweet went out. it's just bizarre what's happened down there, large part is republicans. but i have a question for you. why didn't the democrats get together with the moderate republicans and elect the speaker inthey didn't do it. one other observation i want to make, ari, that's interesting. you know, both in the democratic party and the republican party, they're not in charge. what's happened in american politics today is these special interest groups. many of whom raise money, dark money, people don't know who it is that's giving the money. these are the groups that have so much influence. and we hear about, for example, a club for growth, the koch brothers, and there's democrat leadership committee, whatever it is. those folks are the ones that are really calling the tune, unfortunately. the political parties have been largely neutered in this country. so you have these special interest groups, very narrow in some cases special interest groups, who are the ones that fund these political campaigns. we don't really know all the people that are contributing to them. and we wonder, we wonder why

there's so much division between both parties. >> yeah, you're touching on multiple issues both structure, systemic, polarized politics that are important. we have a flashback for you just from when you did something that frankly doesn't happen a lot. i don't say this on the woe is trump thing. just on the broader conversation we're having, as i understand it, you'll tell us. you looked at the choices and said, people know what a strong conservative republican you have been throughout your life and your voting record and all that. but this is what you said when you were looking down the pike at the choice in 2020. >> we're being taken down the wrong road by a president who has pitted one against the other. i'm a lifelong republican. but that attachment holds second place to my responsibility to my country. that's why i have chosen to appear at this convention. i know that joe biden with his experience and his wisdom and his decency can bring us together to help us find that better way. >> was that a hard call?

did you get a lot of pushback? do you stand by it? >> look, i was in politics, ari, honestly. make a difference, the party has always been my vehicle, never my master. and by the way, yeah, i'm a fiscal conservative, but i'm a reformer. i'm the first republican to have expanded medicaid because i knew it would help 600,000 people in my state. i have been involved in so many issues that are designed to help people. and involved in issues of crime and community and law enforcement and reform and gun reform, all of it. and so always thinking about how we could make things a little better and give everybody a chance. was it a hard call? no, because i thought donald trump was really dividing the country and creating this negative populism that again pits one person against another. i have to also tell you, i don't think that joidz has done a very good job in bringing us together. i think sometimes he's been trapped in doing that. a best example of that was the infrastructure package, when it passed in the senate, he then

came out and said, well, you know, we're going to have to get rid of a lot of stuff, and forget the republicans in the house. nat was a mistake. there are many places where they could have worked together and some places where they have, i don't think he's done enough of that. so i have been disappointed, but i don't regret what i did because i didn't think that trump -- i thought trump was really -- an understatement saying not in the best interest of our country. >> yeah, no, it's interesting. i appreciate your thoughts on all of that. we have been talking about the elephant as it were, now we can talk about the elephant in the room, which you call the circus. it's a full circus analogy for everyone. when you look at these probes, do you think there should practically be a higher bar because it's a former president? do you have concern about overreach of the prosecutor's office, which we have heard about, or at this point with this many real pieces of evidence against the former president trump, are you comfortable if and when a

prosecutor finds evidence to charge, which at least we're hearing about the president very infamously predicting it this weekend? >> it seems to me, ari, i'm not a lawyer and maybe that's why i kept getting re-elected, but you are and you're a very effective lawyer. look, i think you have to let things fall where they fall. and the idea that republicans now are trying to attack this district attorney in new york, i don't like that. let the process play out. because i wouldn't want to see democrats investigating some republican d.a. or investigating clarence thomas or whatever. this judiciary is really important, so i get concerned about that. let it go the way it should go. there's one issue, ari, i think we need to think about, that we sometimes miss. we say all these trump people, you know, a lot of people say they're crazy and everything else. maybe we ought to stop doing that. maybe we ought to try to figure out why these people are so upset and why they are so angry and why they find fault with

institutions in the country that they think is not being fair to them. and we need to think about that. and then how do we bring them back into the fold? 70 million people voted for donald trump the last time. think about that. so you know, my sense is let's listen to them. and let's give them hope, and the candidate that can beat trump in the primary if it can be done is going to be somebody who can give people hope that tomorrow can be a better day. and that person, i don't think has emerged yet. >> you're not seeing that at least in the current choices. super interesting. governor john kasich, we announced on "the beat" you're now an msnbc analyst. welcome to the family. thank you for making your first appearance on "the beat," sir. >> i was glad to do it. been waiting to do it, and we got it done. >> we got it done. we can build from here. thank you, governor. i'll see you again. appreciate it. >> here this hour ends with the governor discussing the circus. saying something i think we can all keep in mind, which is let's be sober and follow the evidence.

at least on those trump cases. we also spoke about the future of the republican party and his call for all of us to keep an open mind. i'll tell you what else we learned, listening to mr. cohen, he rebutted what mr. costello said. all of this leaves us following what trump started on saturday, a conversation about whether he'll be indicted but we have no reportable information that it would be tomorrow. that's the president's claim. as for the process, we'll keep following. if you want to connect with me, i'll remind you here, you can always connect with me on arimelber.com or @arimelber on social media. you can tell us what you thought of the dueling accounts from mr. costello and mr. cohen on this big case. thanks for spending time with "the beat" with ari melber. "the reidout" with joy reid is up next. tonight on "the reidout" -- >>