thanks for spending time with us on "the beat." it's been quite the breaking news night. s you can connect with me at ari melber. tell me what you think about that times story. do you think this case could go where the times said or do you think this is one of those times where a lot of noise but it may not go there? we'll be tracking all of this and follow the facts. you can always connect with me at arimelber.com. thanks to all our guests including those who hops on the breaking news. msnbc will have you covered on this story tonight starting right now with "the reidout" with joy reid. we begin "the reidout" tonight with breaking news. and it does not sound good for

one donald j. trump. "the new york times" is reporting that prosecutors in the manhattan district attorney's office are signaling that criminal charges for the former president are likely to come for his role in the hush money payments to porn star stormy daniels. the times reports the prosecutors offered mr. trump the chance to testify next week before the grand jury that has been hearing evidence in the potential case according to four people with knowledge of the matter. such offers almost always indicate an indictment is close. it would be unusual for the district attorney, alvin bragg, to notify a potential defendant without ultimately seeking charges against him. the manhattan district attorney's office has declined to comment. now, if those charges are made, it would be the first indictment of a former united states president and the first time that trump, who has faced numerous criminal investigations, would be charged with a crime. as you may remember, that $130,000 payment to ms. daniels was made in the final days of

the 2016 presidential election by then trump lawyer and fixer michael cohen on trump's behalf. cohen ultimately went to jail for his role in that payment and has been a cooperative witness ever since. just this week, cohen met with the d. aft's office for the 19th time in preparation to meet with the grand jury as soon as next week. and joining me now is former senator doug jones of alabama. he's currently a distinguished senior fellow at the center for american progress. charles coleman, former brooklyn prosecutor, civil rights attorney, and msnbc legal analyst. and renato mariotti, former federal prosecutor and legal affairs columnist for politico magazine. my brain trust tonight. i appreciate you all being here. senator jones, i want to go to your first because this is actually a big deal if it happens. but i want to take a step back and say "if" is the operative word here. the fact you now had trump invited to speak before the

grand jury, per the times, it says something that isn't good for trump. please explain. >> well, you know, joy, i'm going to take a different approach. what it clearly says is this investigation is nearing the end. one way or another. it clearly is coming to an end. that's kind of the last step. i think in most cases, a lot of cases you would think it would be unusual that you invite somebody and then not charge. however, we really don't know what's going on in the grand jury. michael cohen has been there. you have to admit, this has been a crazy matter. the president's lawyer has gone to jail, stormy daniels' lawyer has gone to jail. it is a sordid chapter in american history. we really don't know, but it doesn't look good, but at the same time, this grand jury may just want to hear from him to close these books. we have to wait and see and let them do their job. >> from your point of view, charles coleman jr., it's unusual at all for a president to be in this position. for this president, though,

there is some irony. you know, given the fact we're talking about his involvement in january 6th, we're talking about his schemes to put forward fake electors, fani willis' investigating him for potentially undermining the election in the state of georgia. tish james has a separate investigation of him. there are all sorts of investigations from alleged tax fraud, not paying taxes, all kinds of things are here. however, it does seem that the ripest political case, i didn't even mention the jack smith investigation into january 6th, it does seem like the ripest case that he is dealing with is the stormy daniels case. what do you make of this revelation by the times. >> well, joy, as you just indicated, this has been a proverbial foot race between prosecutors to see who is going to catch the gingerbread man first. it seems as though out of nowhere, alvin bragg, who was all but out of the race by his own decision previously is now

taking the lead. what i will say is while he may seem close, this case in comparison to the others does not appear to be the strongest. i do think it is a strong indication that alvin bragg is leaning toward charging donald trump, when you're talking about this indictment, but let's be clear and understand that the grand jury still upon hearing the information, i believe, senator jones was alluding to this, has to vote for a true bill before he can indict. of course, prosecutors will tell you you can get an indictment in most cases on a ham sandwich if you try hard enough. i don't necessarily see that being a huge hurdle, but what i will say is even after an indictment with an eventual prosecution, we need to understand that michael cohen is a witness with significant credibility issues so when you're thinking about prosecutoring this case, there are a number of hurdles not to mention quickly that alvin bragg had previously looked at this legal theory before and decided not to prosecute. this has not been something that just fell on his desk.

he's explored this for a while now. the question will become, what is different now that you didn't know then that you're making this decision to move forward. >> that, i guess, has been my issue too. to the point where two of his prosecutors quit, saying that they felt there was a strong case and that alvin bragg did not move forward on it. you now have had some kind of turn in the weather. let's talk about the strength of the case itself. we do know that michael cohen, strong witness or not, was not having an affair with stormy daniels. we know that for sure. we know that donald trump was the person who had an interest in stormy daniels, not talking about that affair, because he was running for president. and we also know that michael cohen took out a loan, paid stormy daniels $130,000, and then got a reimbursement check, we have seen pictures of the check. there it is with donald trump's magic marker signature on it,

reimbursing him for the exact amount paid to stormy daniels, and we know michael cohen for doing that in terms of that being a campaign financial violation, was sentenced to three years in prison for a crime in which donald trump was named as the unindicted coconspirator, the person that was unnamed in it was donald j. trump. he served 13 1/2 months for that. i think when people look at it, whatever you might think of michael cohen as a witness, it is true that he went to prison for something he didn't do. and so fairness would indicate that the person he did it for is at least as culpable as he is. >> yeah, i think it's fair to say that trump is ultimately the driver of this scheme. i don't think anyone disagrees with that. i think the commentary that was just given a moment ago, i actually agree with, is just simply that under the -- in terms of new york law, there's going to be some challenges in this case. one thing i think won't be a

challenge is the misdemeanor charge. the making a false statement in a business record, i think that's much stronger. the question is, and the challenge for alvin bragg and his team, is going to be how can you turn that into a felony? ultimately, the issue is going to be, was there a violation of new york election law here. and that means that was this $130,000 payment a contribution, effectively a contribution to the trump campaign, because this was really in the midst of an election and they needed to keep it quiet in order to make the 2016 election. the trump team is going to say he was doing this because he loved melania so much and didn't want to hurt her. that probably is not going to appeal to most people. the question is there one juror who it would appeal to. >> and i want to go back to you, senator jones. look, you would know better than most about making difficult

cases. you were prosecuting klansmen in alabama. ain't easy to do that given the fact that these folks were walking on murders for decades. and you managed to do that. but there is a principle, i'm not a lawyer, but i understand from fellow lawyers and friends that are lawyers, that prosecutors don't bring a case they don't think they can win. it's not a question of whether you can get an indictment, which as charles coleman jr. has been correct in saying, you can indict. but it's a question of can you win this case. with donald trump, it is very different. this guy has been teflon legally, he's gotten away with everything. i don't know if he's paid taxes since the '90s and he's gotten away with it. the question then becomes for a prosecutor like alvin bragg who did seem to walk back from it before, what would be the incentive structer that could have changed that would make him say i'm going to bring a case that could be as difficult as this? >> you know, joy, that's the $64,000 question. i don't think any three of us

could answer because we're not in the grand jury room. i think there was some pressure on him to take another look at the case. that's not always unusual, when someone declines a case and there's something that pops up that's not in the public eye necessarily that comes to your attention. you say okay, i'll take a look at it. we're not present in the grand jury room. we haven't seen -- we haven't heard michael cohen testify, we haven't seen any responses from stormy daniels. we haven't seen any of that. there's something there that gives him both some pause but also the ability to go forward. remember, this is not the first rodeo in terms of cases like this. remember, john edwards was indicted. it wasn't payments to a porn star, but he was indicted on similar type charges for payments to protect his presidential aspirations. and he was found not guilty, by the way. i think there's a lot, and especially, i have said this about all of the donald trump investigations, any time you have got donald trump and a

former president of the united states, you have got to be extremely cautious. you have to make sure the is are dotted, the ts are crosses and you have to have more than just a strong case. you have to have an abundantly clear and a belief in your gut that this is a case that not only can you win, it's a case that needs to be brought. that's going to be a pretty high bar. going to be a lot of -- i would love to see the internal discussions going on about whether or not to bring this case. >> charles, you were nodding in agreement there. your thoughts on that? >> i have said this a number of times on this platform and many others, that when you come for the king, you cannot miss. even if it is the former king, you started your lead-in talking about how this is basically uncharted water and unprecedented territory. that's exactly right. there are a number of different considerations that senator jones just alluded to around a decision like this. and one of them is quite frankly, there is an enormous amount of political pressure because we're entering into a

presidential election year and a presidential election cycle with a former president who has already declared he intends to run. all of these factors come into play when you're talking about being able to prosecute him and being able to give him quite frankly as he is guaranteed by our constitution a fair trial in front of a jury of his peers. there are a litany of different considerations in terms of the complexity of actually trying a case like this, moving forward with the prosecution, guaranteeing him a fair trial that if you get a conviction on will not be subject to appeal, and above all that, being able to get a conviction. there's a lot of different pieces in conversation like this that aren't usually present that alvin bragg, fani willis, jack smith, and others have to take into account as they're making their decisions on how to move forward with pretty strong evidence in a number of different instances, but that's not where the conversation is. >> that is a purview, you have set me up perfectly for the next block. i promise we did not talk about

this before this. that's what i want to dig into. on the other side of the break, i do want to talk about the mechanics of this. it isn't just that it's a former president. it's a president that essentially has a personality cult behind him. the security aspects for the jury, the security aspects for the judge and prosecutors, all the logistics of if this happens and i have to emphasis, this is not a yes it's going to happen, but we'll talk about this on the other side of the break. we'll be right back in a minute. ? gasp! what's the big deal? what's the big deal? what's the big deal? what's the big deal? ♪marching band music♪ ♪marching band music♪ i'll get a cart. get two! scotts daylawn saving is the biggest deal of the year. stock up early and save up to $20 dollars on the best scotts products.

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let's take a look so far what alvin bragg has accomplished. they have already held the trump organization accountable, minor fine, $1.6 million, when you're worth $10 billion if not more. then of course, you also have the allen weisselberg matter. we now have the attorney general, our unsinkable tish james. going to take a lot of money out of the trump coffers. let's be real about that one. he is being held accountable. >> back with me, former senator doug jones of alabama, former brooklyn prosecutor charles coleman jr., and politico's renato mariotti. that was michael cohen on our program back in february. that was about a week before he went for his 16th meeting with this new york grand jury. he's been 19 times, renato. they have brought him back and back and back. there is some irony that i was chatting about with my producers

during the break. of all the things that donald trump is alleged to have done, leading up to an insurrection, not paying taxes potentially for his entire lifetime, the things allen weisselberg went to prison for. he got the real accountable for what trump was doing at trump inc. you can do all of it, the things he has allegedly done. it's somewhat ironic the thing that appears the most sort of ever present as a threat to his freedom, to his whatever, is this, right, is this stormy daniels payment. but we are where we are. so let's just walk through it. this in some ways seems like the easiest out of all those cases. it's not making fake electors. it's paying off somebody for a sexual matter. but how complicated actually would it be if he were to be indicted, to prosecute a case like this? >> very complicated. you know, charles mentioned a moment ago that of course he's

entitled to a fair trial. it's all constitutional protections of any defendant. one question is, is manhattan a proper venue. can he get a fair trial there? what about pretrial publicity? how are you going to screen a jury like that? what sort of questions do you ask these people? how are you going to find people who don't have preconceived notions of donald trump's guilt or not. so i think that's going to be very, very challenging, not only for the manhattan d.a.'s office, but for whatever judge who is unfortunate or fortunate enough to be assigned this matter. it will be a difficult process, but i will say this. i do have faith in the jury system in the united states. in our criminal justice system, to be able to screen off do they really have a case like this. i do think that there are judges who can keep control of this courtroom, and i do think that he can receive a fair trial in

this country. i think the question is just going to be whether or not district attorney bragg pulls the trigger and it does appear like he's going to do that. >> charles, it's a very good point. donald trump lost the borough of manhattan i think like 87% of the people there voted for joe biden. it was one of his worst performances in the entire state, a state that he also lost. he also lost the election. i know he doesn't believe it, but he actually does believe it, but we're not going to go there. but it would be very difficult because you're right, he is entitled to a fair trial. how do you even screen a jury? this is one of the most famous people in the country, if not in the world. he was a former president of the united states. you have people who believe in him so much that it is essentially a cult. you have people who believe things like qanon, could they be on the jury if you believe in something like a conspiracy? do you have to screen people politically to make sure you can find somebody -- i think about

the murdaugh trial. you're in the low country, everybody knew the murdaughs. it's possible to get a jury of your peers even if you're well known and to get a conviction as a prosecutor. they did in that case. how would you even do it in manhattan? >> joy, the first thing is you have to consider whether you're going to seek a change of venue, because in any venue across the united states of america, you're talking about the former president. everyone is going to have an opinion. the standard, the question, the issue that any judge and any prosecutor speaking as a former prosecutor is going to seek to employ is, does your opinion range so strong that it prevents you or may prevent you from being fair and impartial on this particular matter? and that is a question that the judge is going to ask. we understand that you have opinions. we understand that you are going to have an opinion about donald trump. is that opinion so strong, is it so prevalent that it will prevent you from being fair and impartial here with the facts and the law as they are given to

you? now, if a juror says no, then the judge has to go forward with that and then either of the sides or either of the parties has to then make a decision as to whether to use any of his challenges dur jury selection as to whether they don't want someone on the jury. what i suspect is we would hear during jury selection, during the questionnaire and voir dire, a lot of questions about where to you get your news, where do you watch news from, to ascertain whether there might be a political bias. political bias in and of itself will not be enough or sufficient to kick someone off a jury in a case like this if it is brought forward. >> then i get to, and senator jones, you have been a target of this. you know what trump is like. when you were running for re-election in the state of alabama, you took the full fuselage that he likes to dish out. this prosecutor, to be honest, alvin bragg would face that. there is going to be an allegation he's a political

prosecutor. he's a black man, so it could get racial. it's trump. it could get really ugly. he has done that with letitia james. he's done that with fani willis. he's tried to characterize them in a specific way. then there are his troops, his ground troops, his people who you think have to think about it when they were mad he lost an election, they ransacked the capitol. and so you have to think about the security aspects. he has attracted, not saying he's tried to, but he has attracted elements of white nationalists. he's attracted the proud boys, oath keepers, who according to the fbi, pose a security risk. talk a little bit about the logistics of having such a trial, whether you move it out of manhattan or not. >> i'm going to assume for a moment it will stay in manhattan because i think ultimately you'll get a good jauj there who will work through this. there's any number of ways you can work through jury selection, including calling a ton of

people to that jury selection, if you ever get to that point. you can use jury questionnaires, you can use a number of things, individual questioning of jurors as opposed to courtroom questioning. i think the security aspect, joy, is a very, very serious one. and not that donald trump may incite this, like i think he did on january 6th, but i think the stage has already been set. the die is cast. and folks will be revved up about this. and it's not just the crowds. you have to worry about the lone wolfs that are out there that think god has sent them to do this in favor of donald trump. there's a lot of things that have to be considered. remember, with we're talking about credibility of witnesses we really haven't heard very much from donald trump's point of view on this. he's really not been very vocal about this. and you can count on the fact that michael cohen's credibility will be front and center, and

the attacks are not just going to go to the prosecutor. they're going to go on cohen, on stormy daniels. there's likelihood to allege, wait a minute, i'm the victim here. this was an extortion attempt. you're charging the wrong people. look at avenatti has already gone to prison. this is going to get absolutely crazy if an indictment comes down. but look, that is something that i am confident that the d.a. and the court system and the security around there will take into account, and they will judge whether or not to seek an indictment based on the facts and the law and not all the extraneous matters. you have to follow the rule of law and deal with the consequences of what that may entail. >> i'm going to do a quick lightning round. yes or no, would you try to move this case out of manhattan, renato? >> absolutely not. you gave the percentages. it's a great place for a prosecutor to pick a jury from in this particular case. >> charles coleman jr., would you move it? >> not a chance i move it as a

prosecutor. not a chance i don't try to move it as a defense attorney. >> wow. there you go. thank you. this was a great group. thank you very much, doug jones, charles coleman jr., renato mariotti. >> much more on the breaking news right after the break. they customize your car insurance, so you only pay for what you need. with the money we saved, we thought we'd try electric unicycles. whoa! careful, babe! saving was definitely easier. hey babe, i think i got it! it's actually... whooooa! ok, show-off! help! oh! only pay for what you need. ♪ liberty. liberty. liberty. liberty. ♪

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breaking news tonight, "the new york times" reported late today that the manhattan district attorney's office is inching closer to the end of its

investigation. and it is huge news in and of itself. but the prospect that donald trump could face criminal charges would plunge this country into uncharted waters. to be clear, we do not know what will happen. over the weekend, the former president told reporters he would stay in the race for president even if he was indicted. >> they have even weaponized the local agencies and the local d.a.s and attorney generals. they put people from the justice department in the manhattan d.a.'s office. think about that. they're racists, you have a lot of racists, a lot of race-baiting. it's a disgraceful thing going on. the country has never seen anything like it. yet probably it will enhance my numbers. >> joining me now is david jolly, former republican congressman and msnbc political analyst, and tara setmayer, senior adviser for the lincoln project and former republican party communications director. tara, i have to go to you. this is the least surprising

sound bite i think ever. i mean, fani willis is african american. alvin bragg is african american. letitia james is african american. they are three black prosecutors who pose a threat to donald trump's financial potential, liability, and potentially his liberty, not tish james but the other two. he's gone right to the race card. he's gone right to they're racists. as silly and trumpy as that is, it's also dangerous at a time when we face the largest increase in racist violence and threats from white nationalism. this is what the fbi director christopher wray has said. donald trump would use that to his advantage if he were indicted. correct? >> absolutely. that's not you or i saying that. that is the law enforcement professionals who study this who are paid by the taxpayers to make sure that the american people are fully aware of what the threats are to the country,

domestic and abroad. that's what they have said. we didn't make it up. so we can see with our own eyes the type of extremism that trump and trumpism has ginned up during the era of trump on the political scene. it was -- we could have predicted what his response was going to be. as soon as we saw that the prosecutors happened to be african american in all three cases here which are the biggest legal threats to donald trump yet, you could have predicted what he would say. and you know what, it's so typical because you know what an average white guy fears more is successful people of color who are in positions of power. so yeah, he should be afraid of them because they are actually excellent at what they're doing. and they have evidence against him that for once he may actually pay a price. and there's nothing worse for donald trump, not only could he potentially be held accountable but by people of color. this is par for the course for him. he's been a racist his entire life, all the way back to his first time on the front page of

the "new york post" because of racist housing policy with him and his father in the '70s. so the idea that this is just another avenue for him to use the race card isn't surprising to me. but this is part of his brand. what's more problematic is that the republican party and the leaders of the party who claim they need new generational leadership and how they need to turn the page, none of them will come out and condemn this because they know they need that base. unforp nltly, that base of support is very powerful and trump is probably right. he will get more support. he will in august. you had a "new york times" sienna poll after the fbi raided mar-a-lago. a search of mar-a-lago. his support was at 44%, virtually unchanged. so it's the establishment, the republicans may use this as a political tool against him to say oh, we need new leadership, he's too damaged, but the base doesn't want to hear it. they're still with him. the republican party is not a party anymore.

it's an extremist move at this point. >> this is the challenge, i think, that prosecutors have to think about. alvin bragg is an elected official. he's not posed to think about politics when it comes to who to prosecutor. a crime is a crime and a crime. but here is the atmosphere that he is making this decision and will make this decision on. this is the statement today, david, from trump's spokesperson. the manhattan district attorney's threat to indict president trump, they should say former, is simply insane. for the past five years the d.a.'s office has been on a witch hunt investigating every aspect of president trump's life and come up empty at every turn and now this. the fact that after their intensive investigation, the d.a. is even considering a new political attack is a clear exoneration of president trump in all areas. they like saying president trump over and over again. president trump was the victim of extortion then, just as he is now, it's an embarrassment to the democrat prosecutors, an embarrassment to new york city. the challenge here is that for

republicans in elected office, including in washington, they have built their entire brand around creating committees to investigate the supposed attacks on him, to reinvestigate the investigations of january 6th. to try to codify conspiracy theories he dreamed up in his head. that is what they're still committed to, and the ones who are not committed to it lay down for it, thinking about kevin mccarthy. talk a little bit from having been there, what might the atmosphere look like on the hill if this indictment happens? >> sure. yeah, joy, significant repercussions for the decision by alvin bragg, fani willis or the u.s. attorney general. each of them will make a decision within the four corners of the law, but the pre-charging work that will go into protecting the atmosphere and environment around the charges, the security of everybody involved, would be significant. could take some time. the question that i think this

ultimately will test, because we have known the likelihood of donald trump running for president, facing indictment or having indictment continues to go up. the question now becomes has donald trump been leading a political movement or a cultural movement? in a political movement, there are enough people who want him to go away. even the leading contenders who are following in his footsteps, ron desantis, nikki haley. take mitch mcconnell or kevin mccarthy, someone who would shine donald trump's shoes with his own spit right now, all of them want the prosecutors to get rid of donald trump because they don't have the courage to do it. if donald trump is leading a political movement, then donald trump, this starts to fracture very quickly. but if he's leading a cultural movement, which is the big question, then you might see the questions around violence and whether or not we truly see the nation begin to be torn asunder because donald trump still holds captive 30% to 40% of the country. he will use this as a victim to say the deep state is after me, that means they're after you. let's stick together and beat

the democrats and beat the prosecutors. this creates a dangerous environment. not one that should influence the decision of alvin bragg, fani willis, or the u.s. attorney general. >> we have already seen, tara, threats against fbi officials because they went into donald trump's home to get back our documents. our national security information. and they were literally then threatened by donald trump's people. we just discovered that fox news is willing to lie to 3 million people per show, per night, about donald trump even though they internally say they despise donald trump and don't believe anything he says. if he does start that war that david just described and decides that that's the ground he's going to fight on to turn it into a racial and political movement for him to defend himself, i don't even want to maybe think about what fox news would do with it, but i kind of can guess. >> he already has, right? we already saw the power of what he can do.

and what happens when you have the irresponsibility and the indecency and unethical actions of a news organization indoctrinating people for years and years. trump knows exactly what he's doing when he repeats these themes of a witch hunt. it was a hoax. it's -- they're after me and that means they're after you. he's been laying the predicate for this for years. what would fox news do? well, clearly, we have seen that they're craven enough and dishonest enough that they will shape the narrative to placate their people, not what the truth is. they have completely sold out the country. democracy, truth, journalistic ethics be damns. it's about stock prices and our viewers. we can't trust a word that comes out of anybody's mouth at fox news, not even the, quote, news people like bret baier and others who tried to save the reputation of fox. no, not even them. they're all in on it. fox should lose its fcc license. that's the big story over there.

i hope the senate has hearings and looks into that because fox cannot be trusted. they're a state run -- well, under trump, state run propaganda type channel. this is, what is fox going to do if this happens and trump runs around the country telling people this is a witch hunt against him and tries to convince people to take up arms or to storm local capitols. who knows what he'll do to try to save himself. i worry about that. that is a real question. that's why we have to make sure we continue to show people how duplicitous they are. show them they're lying to them. what does that do? will that actually finally convince people to say wait a minute, they're all full of it? i don't know, but we need to keep showing them the truth. >> last word on this, david. i think that there is a very real security concern given what we know that the propagandists on the trump side will do and what regular order republicans will let them do and say in this environment, how worried are you that a prosecution like this could lead to the kind of

violence we saw on january 6th, 2021? >> very much so because donald trump would remain a candidate for the gop nomination sitting in a new york prison. and he's going to cultivate these cultural angst and anger behind him. i think your previous panel hit it best. it may not be a call to arms by donald trump but the lone wolf and the natural adjacent partners in this dangerous culture movement that i think would create the security risks for the country. >> we hate to have to think about this because the law is supposed to be the law, and it's not supposed to depend on the threats that surround a potential defendant when you prosecute terrorists, all sorts of people, without regard to that. but it's something with the former president of the united states that we have to think about. it is a wild time to be alive. david jolly and tara setmayer, thank you both very much. we'll be right back.

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qunol. the brand i trust. if your business kept on employees through the pandemic, getrefunds.com can see if it may qualify for a payroll tax refund of up to $26,000 per employee. all it takes is eight minutes to get started. then work with professionals to assist your business with its forms and submit the application. go to getrefunds.com to learn more. like many of you, i had very low expectations before and after it took 15 rounds of voting to get kevin mccarthy the speaker's gavel. this is the man, after all, who rightly concluded donald trump was morally responsible for the attack on our capitol on january 6th, only to fly down to palm beach, florida, and apologize to trump before turning his soul over to the former president to do with it what he will. now that he handed over january 6th footage to right wing performance artist tucker carlson, he has also solidiied his party's status and himself

as a beknighted speaker forever tied to a perhaps soon to be indicted president. his maga trolls who effectively control him and the house used a hearing of their government weaponization committee to drill down on the so-called twitter files and an ongoing attempt to feed the right wing fever dream that tech companies are conspiring to censor conservative content while hiding the, air quotes, truth about the biden family. they called up matt taibbi and michael schellenberger, two of many chosen to shill elon musk's narrative who complained democrats were being mean to them. >> this morning, we saw a stunning display of their attack of your character. we shouldn't be surprised. this is what the defenders of big government corruption do. >> i often say that sunshine is the best disinfectant, and boy, after listening to you and reading the reports that i have, does our federal government need to be fumigated. >> you don't want the american people to see, the full video,

transparency. you don't want that and you don't want two journalists who have been named personally by the biden administration, ftc, in a letter? >> the biden administration -- >> you're saying you're going to help us. they're here to tell their story. frankly, i think they're brave individuals for being willing to come after they have been named in a letter from the biden ftc. >> joining me is dan goldman of new york, a member of the select subcommittee on the weaponization of the federal government. there's a desperation to jim jordan and the yelling. i know he doesn't yell all the time, but what has in your view this committee accomplished thus far? >> nothing. absolutely nothing. we have been focusing on twitter and this sort of misunderstanding of how the first amendment works and how law enforcement works. i mean, one of the problems with this subcommittee is jim jordan and others don't understand how the fbi, the department of justice actually investigates crimes. one of the things i asked the winces today is, do you think it is a legitimate objective of the

fbi to prevent foreign interference in our elections? it seems like a pretty basic understanding. and they would not give me a straight answer. they would not say yes to that. and so we're just dealing with people who are trying to make political points to undermine joe biden, support donald trump, and it's going to get worse in many ways, the hearing today was about what a private company did, the first amendment doesn't even apply to a private company. but we have now had allegedly these fake whistleblowers who are essentially bought and paid for by donald trump's allies. they have actually been paid. and that's who they're trying to trot. so what is clear about this committee is there is collusion with trump world to try to launder misinformation in support of donald trump through unofficial committee of the house of

representatives, and that is dangerous and abuse of power. >> it seems like the dealers of the users are the same people now. what you have is misinformation universe that is real, dangerous, what we saw on january six, will lead people to believe election was stolen because they don't know how an election works. but when you ramp people up with what you think is real then you get people who bought that conspiracy theory dais, they're gonna prove what's real. gonna prove no one landed on the moon. the moon is made of. cheese i'm going to prove it because of it have a conspiracy theory. if they're in the business of trying to prove conspiracy theories through true true, if donald trump gets indicted, i cannot even imagine what the weaponization of government committee would do with that. i think a weaponization of government committee is a good thing. we've seen the weaponization of the federal government. we saw it in the justice

system. we saw michael cohen thrown into prison for writing a book. >> that's what i said today. i said, you know, if you want to do a hearing on the government, weaponizing the government to prohibit the first amendment protected speech, let's bring in all the republican officials who are banning books around the country. let's bring in bill barr and talk about the fact that donald trump's enemy was literally jailed in order to prevent him from publishing a book. but here we are talking about twitter. it's kind of makes it a mockery of what we are actually trying to do. those of us who came to washington here to actually do the peoples work, to think about our problems, and there are problems that we could address. the balance between law enforcement and the first amendment with social media companies is a tricky, difficult problem that needs serious thinking, not this sideshow that we are having having. but you talk about conspiracy

theories, this committee is made up of a bunch of conspiracy theories and now they're trying to backfill the evidence. but there is no evidence. there is no support for what they want to be able to conclude and what they have already concluded. and so we are getting these hearings that are increasingly, it seems like, some crazy circus that is removed from reality. >> that reinforces peoples belief in government. government looks silly. there could be a real purpose to this, but instead they are making it, we're just going to prove these wild theories off of 4chan are true. and they can do it, as you said. i want to read to you quickly something that donald trump, a person they believe in the most. he has alleged that the justice department weaponize local agencies, put people from the justice department in the manhattan da's office, which is not true. there is racist rampant throughout these local da's,

and they are coming to get him. he has already done a pre-sort of defense, which is a conspiracy theory. i wonder what you think the atmosphere then becomes on capitol hill for the security of people on capitol hill hill. we saw that on january six when people got mad about a conspiracy. >> there's no question that donald trump's chance of winning the republican nomination will increase if he gets indicted. that is the backwards world that we are operating in because he is always trying to play the victim. in this case he now will have an indictment and these wild, fall's, completely baseless accusations that he can just flying around and the problem is so many people have drunk his kool-aid that they will believe it. everybody's security is going to be at risk if donald trump is indicted, not just the people in that manhattan da's office. but anybody who is, who opposes

him or calls him out. look what happened to january 6th. it's going to really get more inflamed if he does not control things. and we know he won't. >> and there was the -- story that we did today, where she admitted to lying about january six. this is somebody who called him an idiot, then decided to go all in line for him. she could have lost her bar license. that's how much people are willing to do for this guy. even if they don't really believe in him. and so it does worry me that whether the play acting like i guess she was, i can't tell, or they really mean it, the republican party seems to have bought into whatever conspiracy theory he selling, and they're gonna sell it with him. >> tucker carlson is saying how he hates him. so passionately. and then he's going on and parroting him and promoting him. i mean, the right-wing eco sphere is very disconnected from reality. but they will never be watching

you and me. it's a bubble, and it's very difficult to break it. it's a significant problem. i'm excited to see where that dominion lawsuit goes, because it has the possibility of really breaking through that. >> we are out of time, but quickly, as a former prosecutor do you do this indictment anyway, if you think that he did it? >> if you have the facts and you have the evidence, you have the law, you absolutely indict. you cannot be afraid. >> congressman and former prop prosecutor dan goldman. we'll be right back. we'll be right back.

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