decide, 3 and 5 who said they might still change their mind even if they named a candidate. >> that was fascinating, too. julia, thank you. we're glad to have you on the show. appreciate you all watching this hour of msnbc. "deadline: white house" starts right now. ♪♪ ♪♪ >> hi there, everyone. it's 4:00 in new york where markets have just closed with stocks suffering one of the worst days of the year so far. the dow falling 1,000 points and that's more than three percentage points after it made big gains yesterday, but we begin this hour with major news in the justice department's investigation into the deadly january 6th attack. a stunning allegation and a high-profile january 6th case brings one of the most violent extremist groups involved in the capitol insurrection closer than ever before to donald trump and his allies. it is an allegation that could

potentially go a long way toward answering one of the biggest outstanding questions about january 6th. what, if any, are the links between the white house and the groups that propagated the horrific violence on the 6th that ultimately led to the deaths of seven, 150 injured and maimed police officers and countless others suffering ptsd. william todd wilson pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy on wednesday. he's one of the 11 members of the extremist group the oath keepers. he is the third member of that group to plead guilty and to agree to cooperate with prosecutors. he was among the oath keepers seen on the 6th on video moving in military formation among the mob that stormed the u.s. capitol. in court records william wilson describes what happened after the capitol was breached like this. at approximately 5:00 p.m., wilson, rhodes and others left

the capitol grounds and walked together to the phoenix hotel. at the phoenix hotel, rhodes gathered wilson and other co-conspirators inside of a private suite. rhodes then calls an individual over speaker phone. wilson heard rhodes repeatedly implore that individual to tell president trump to call upon groups like the oath keepers to forcibly oppose the transfer of power. this individual denied rhodes' request to speak directly with trump. after the call rhodes states to the group, quote, i just want to fight. as nbc news, quote, such a phone call that rhodes made just after 5:00 p.m. would have taken place when rioters were still being cleared on the grounds of the capitol after trump tweeted a video calling the rioters, quote, very special, but before he tweeted at 6:00 p.m., quote, remember this day forever, end quote. attorneys for stewart rhodes who

has pleaded not guilty to all charges related to january 6th told cnn that they were not aware of any call taking place, but these claims by rhodes' deputy only lead to more questions really. who was stewart rhodes talking to? why would the leader of a domestic violent extremist group have access to a person who supposedly had a direct line to then president of the united states donald j. trump? politico writes this, quote, the filing shows that prosecutors are increasingly eyeing ties between the oathkeepers and inside trump's orbit and one of the other members who pleaded guilty to seditious conspiracy. joshua james was a member of roger stone's security detail and jones is cooperating with the government following his plea deal. new revelation shedding light on the ties between trump world and domestic extremists is where we start the hour. betsy woodruff is here. the national correspondent for politico, with us at the table,

new york times washington correspondent mike schmitt is here and rick stangel joins us, all three msnbc contributor. betsy woodruff swann. let me start with you. again, we're talking about the doj case in this instance. this is the group of oathkeepers charged with seditious conspiracy, the most serious charges levied so far and this is an allegation from one of the defendants who is now cooperating about a call that puts him very, in very close proximity so far. >> if you go into d.c. and throw a rock you'll claim a huckster having a direct line to donald trump. some of those people actually do. the number of people to direct lines to the former president includes shall we say quite a cornucopia of characters.

we don't know -- we don't know if the person who took the call from stewart rhodes had a direct relationship with trump or if he was just one of many, many scam artists claim to have such a relationship. the good news is it shouldn't be that hard to figure out who was on the other end of that call because it was a phone call presumably there will be records of that phone call somewhere, and there's no question that justice department prosecutors will be trying to track down those phone records if they are gettable. what's important about the cooperation from wilson here is that while doj can trace the paper trail themselves, it's much, much hard are for prosecutors to figure out the contents of verbal conversations like this one unless there was a secret recording or if there was a person who was there hearing it who shared what was said.

there is no doubt that doj is chomping at the bit to figure out exactly what the answer to these questions is. >> well, i'll go with betsy's word here, hucksters. there were a lot of them, mike schmitt, around the president and they all used the same security group. i'm not sure what they needed protection from on january 5th and 6th and they turned to the oath keepers for protection on that day. they include roger stone, mike flynn, ali alexander, and alex jones. so they were using a lot of the same security folks. a lot of those -- two of those folks had a direct line to donald trump. flinn was in the oval office coordinating and strategizing about how to overturn the election. what's your sense of the importance of this part of the investigation into whether or not there are ties between donald trump's innermost circle and the extremists themselves. >> so we're getting to the end of the january 6th investigation and we've obviously learned an enormous amounts from that and

we've now learned increasingly more from the justice department's investigations, but and the biggest question that still remains is that connective tissue. it is what was -- because we know that donald trump said a lot of this out loud. we know they were outwardly doing so much of this, but that final, major question here which doesn't look like there's an obvious answer because such a small development like this in a court filing raises everyone's attention because that's the question. what is the connective tissue. were there discussions? what did the white house know? what did trump know and what were those, you know -- what was the knowledge of the violence that was going to take place and was it truly designed, you know, did they sit down and design this to stop pence? the one thing about the trump folks is that they're not very organized which i think is a difficult part of the

investigation is the fact that these are atypical people that were operating with the very abnormal cabinet of people around him in the end like mike flynn and sydney powell. >> betsy, they're not organized, but neither are they discreet and we know from testimony from miss hutchison, special assistant to the president the second or third most senior kind of aid that mark meadows was warned of violence. >> we know that all these people had security. so in their own mind, i think roger stone and ali alexander and mike flinn and alex jones thought the same thing that mark meadows did. so maybe they saw it on twitter. maybe they had the same stream of information. i guess my question is violence was predicted at such a high-end, such confirmable level that he was warned of the likelihood of it and all of these folks had private security and i think one of the members of congress had on a bulletproof

jacket made of kevlar. they thought there was going to be violence. how could they not have been in on where that would come from if they were expecting it? >> people knew, without question, that the day could go sideways. what we know is many of the folks in this group, particularly roger stone and alex jones that antifa-type characters are on the attack and when the attack on the capitol building happened we saw a conspiracy theory start to be crafted in some ways deliberately in real time as people close to the president tried to blame anybody except for the president's supporters for the violence that was unfolding some day. of course, there's no question that bears in part to mayor bouncer of d.c. encouraging

people who oppose the movement to stay away from the potential violence, thanks in part to that, and the people who were engaged in violence were also the people who supported trump and you didn't have to be a genius to figure out that day that it was going to be violent and dangerous. there are so many warnings from security researchers and there was public information and hundreds of law enforcement officers all around the country who held a call just a few days beforehand talking about the possibility of a mass casualty, vent and there was just no question, it was very, very obvious that january 6th had the potential to go sideways and it is not surprising that they had the characters to go with them and everybody seemed to know except for u.s. capitol police which was woefully underprepared for the level of violence that was going to happen that day. >> so, rick, we went back and looked at the dynamic, if you will between donald trump and the extremist groups who showed up on the 6th.

here he is with his instructions for the proud boy, a different group. >> are you willing to condemn groups to say they need to stand down and not add to the violence in a number of the cities in kenosha and portland. >> sure, i'm willing to do that. >> almost everything i see is from the left wing, not from the right wing. >> what are you saying? >> i'm willing to do anything. i want to see peace. >> then do it, sir. >> say it. >> you want to call them -- what do you want to call them -- >> white supremacists. >> proud boys? stand back and stand by, but i'll tell you what? i'll tell you what? somebody's got to do something about antifa and the left. christopher wray, the domestic vilism threat that the threat was on the right and the group chris wallace was pressing

commander in chief donald trump to condemn. he finally says stand back and stand by. here's how the militia groups heard it. this is them wearing t-shirts, stand back and stand by. there is no denying and this is just, i guess adjacent to the criminal investigations that are ongoing that they felt that he was atop their chain of command. >> yes. i mean, we've talked about this a hundred times. he's a mob boss. he's a crime boss. he never says the explicit thing like kill that guy. he says some euphemism. >> he did tell them to stand by. i mean, it is certainly telling them to change their plans and be of assistance. >> you never know with trump if it's complete inarticulateness or it's probably both. by the way, thank you for

referring to these groups as refers to violent extremist groups because there is one militia. lots of newspapers and news organizations call them militias. they're not. they're illegal extremist groups. so the connection is kind of implicit. i'm not able to kind of draw the dots and obviously, the phone call from stewart rhodes didn't get through to trump, but he communicates at a different level. he's not getting on the phone and saying, go assault the capitol, but again, this was a seditious conspiracy as the court said. it was a violent attempt to overthrow the u.s. government that trump was complicit with. >> mike, your colleagues have some reporting on some of the questions that doj investigators have started asking some of these defendants in some of these cases and they include some of what was alluded to and some of it was what they believed trump wanted.

soy much of that is going on behind the scenes and how much of that is showing up in filings and how much of that intersects with the congressional investigation which is probing this space. >> they're all looking at the same question and to rick's point about the problems in understanding trump is we spend an enormous amount of time looking for the secret plan. and it's all out loud. russia, if you're listening, in the middle of the 2016 campaign, through his comments on january 6th, and look, that's why this piece of information got attention. what was going on there? what's the connective tissue? they were all rowing in the same direction. did they really need to talk to each other? well, it doesn't look like they needed to. >> i guess that's the bottom line, betsy.

this is some specific reporting in the times about this specific defendant, mr. wilson. it says this, he joins two other oathkeepers charged with sedition. ulrich and job what james, and in the days leading up to the attack, ulrich acknowledged sending messages in the private oathkeepers group chat saying that civil war took office and biden has a few radicals died trying to burn down cities on december 19, 2020. the same day trump posted a tweet urging supporters to go to washington for a wild protest. trump sits on his hands and biden wins with the first and second amendment. it is so illustrative of what is on their mind at stake and what the plan was and how important december 19th ends up being and that's the day trump tweets and that's the day republican members of congress were in the white house, as well.

at some point, we're talking about finding connective tissue. didn't it start with trump in the white house? >> the plan that the oath keepers had was public and it was in response to direct comments that president trump made. what's also important was that this plan stayed in motion after the january 6th attack on the capitol. the phone call that we've been talking about came late in the evening of january 6th after the oathkeepers had left. one incredibly important detail targeting stewart rhodes, the leader of the oathkeepers is they go through the money that he spent on weapons and other military gear from late december until january 19th and it's about $40,000. half of that money that stewart rhodes, the leader of the oath keepers spent on weapons, ammunition and paramilitary equipment and half that money he spent after that january 6th attack. january 6th was not the end of

their plan. we talk about it just for brevity's sake. just been day and it was a process that lasted for weeks and that's part of the reason the department has treated it like such a pressing national security concern and it didn't stop when capitol police took back control of the capitol building and it is something that very much remained under way and remained a perpetual threat. >> that's such a good point and buttressed that they put on subsequent threat alerts and election conspiracies and public health remains the most sort of hass douse, domestic violent terrorism threat. to what betsy's saying, that makes the slow motion insurrection something that is harder to talk about, harder to cover. she said brevity, it's brevity

and laziness. her point is a good one and it's still going on. >> it's still going on. to your earlier question, when did it begin? i remember we did a cover story on the rise of illegal militia groups in the u.s. and bart gelman wrote the story. >> think, bart gelman wrote the story. >> you should see him in fatigues. >> they grew because they were opposed to barack obama. lo and behold barack obama was succeeded by a president who would embrace them and told them to stand by and not stand down. every fbi director, even trump's fbi director said the greatest threat is the domestic terrorism threat and can you imagine if those were guys from isis on january 6th surrounding the capitol? it's inconceivable. the threat continues to grow and no one is tampening down on them and combines with what we see with republicans in congress and

that's a combustible mixture. >> i want to show you something jamie rask insaid at least as it applies to the investigation. >> the committee is very focused on the outbreak of violence and what were the intimations of violence and what was the planning for violence that took place under the domestic violent extremist groups and some of the people who had decided to take state's evidence and we were trying to put that together and this was a marriage between an inside political coup at the highest levels of the administration with street thugs and hooligans and neofascists. >> it's something similar, congressman raskin said something similar about investigating the three wings and i know you and your colleague reported on the committee reaching the evidentiary threshold to refer to cases to doj and should they

make the political decision to do so. is this -- is this part of where they have found that criminality on the part of trump's inner circle, this for-knowledge of violence. i'm not sure, but what this case sort of shows is we've spent a lot of time talking about the criminal referral in the past few months. what were they going to do? what were they going to, you know, did the committee think they had enough? what was the impact of that going to be? i think that for democrat, the justice department's movement and filings like this continue to show the committee that maybe it does not need to make a criminal referral, that the justice department investigations are so far along and that they have uncovered so many things and you have to remember that the justice department has better tools to getting to the bottom of these things than congress. they have search warrantses and

they have badges and guns and that tends to allow them to get more information in different ways in a way that's gone on here in congress. so i think the more of these things that come out, the less pressure there is buzz so much of it is playing out in the criminal courts. >> betsy, it's frustrating to have you on camera, but thank you for the breaking news on donald trump jr. mike schmitt thank you. rick is stuck at the table for the hour. when we come back, the u.s. assistance to ukraine comes in many forms. we are learning today about how u.s. intelligence is assisting them in real time in battlefield decisions. how russia might respond. house intelligence committee member hines is our guest. strong words, emotional words from the governor of california urging americans including democrats to wake up as the nation prepares to roll back

rights we've now enjoyed for generations. the fight on the left to protect reproductive freedoms. later in the show, there are still unanswered questions about the insurrection and the effort to overturn the election in 2020. what else before the public hearings get under way next month. all of those stories and more after deadline: white house returns. don't go anywhere. don't go anywhere. statin and being active. but you can do hard. you lived through the blizzard of '96... 12 unappreciative bosses... (phone rings) 17 fad diets... five kids, three grandkids... one heart attack... and 18 passwords that seem to change daily... and now, with leqvio, you can lower your cholesterol, too. when taken with a statin,

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we talked about that quite a bit. we do not provide intelligence on the location of senior military on the battlefield or the ukrainian military. ukrainians have, quite frankly, a lot more information than we do. this is their country, their territory, and they have capable intelligence collection abilities of their own. >> that was pentagon press secretary john kirby and his briefing that just wrapped up on the independence of the ukrainian military own intelligence gathering and it comes after blockbuster reporting in "the new york times" how they've targeted and killed 12 russian generals on the front lines during the war. kirby reiterated this statement from the national security council, quote, the united states provides battlefield intelligence to help the ukrainians defend their country. we do not provide intelligence with the intent to kill russian generals, end quote.

nbc news has not confirmed the new york times reporting which the times attributes to senior u.s. officials who say the u.s., quote, prohibits itself from providing intelligence about the most senior russian leaders and two u.s. officials tell nbc news that policy expressly forbids the sharing of lethal targeting experience of military leaders. on the ground in mariupol, this disturbing video of heavy shelling by russian forces inside that steel plant where ukrainian commander says heavy bloody battles are now being fought. 300 civilians were quite miraculously rescued yesterday, sharing stories of the horror they endured as others remained trapped there. ukrainian fighters inside with their communications restored again once again to keep fighting. congressman hines. i understand your role and your access to sensitive information,

but targeting and sharing intelligence are two distinct things. the intelligence can aid another country with their targeting. what it talks about is intelligence sharing and i've read it a few times it's not about targeting the generals. it's about sharing intelligence. what are you able to share with us how intelligence is aiding ukrainians on the battlefield. >> as you point out that's always a tough question to answer and maub i can cast light by shedding light on the parameters here. you heard john kirby, that is true. it is not the united states' intent or goal to knock off russian leadership and by the way, this is hard to do, right? the intelligence that we gather and we're very, very good at gathering intelligence. the american people get something for the roughly $80 billion that we get on intelligence gathering. it is very hard to convey that to other americans, by the way, much less to foreign country, because when you convey

intelligence there a a chance that people can understand the way you did it, but the important point, nicole is that we are going to use all of our assets short of going after regime change or you know, as john kirby said, deliver specific targeting in general to stop the russians from the rape of ukraine and it's not just the united states and the united kingdom and france and poland and any number of other countries have intelligence capability and those assets will be able to be made right up until the moment that russia decides that this catastrophe needs to stop. until then, the russians should expect that the free and decent world is where you provide the assets that they need to deliver the kind of devastating losses that the russians have suffered in ukraine to date. >> i mean, i guess you answered the question in a way that makes more sense to me. the secretary of defense was in

ukraine saying the end goal is to weaken russia militarily. we have made abundantly clear that we have chosen sides and it is ukraine. we have sent it plane after plane after plane after plane of the weapons that they have specifically asked for and that we're sharing intelligence and the intelligence community in this country is one of the sung and unsung heroes of this effort. they predicted everything that russia would do up to and including the start of the war and i guess if you could -- the line you're drawing that we have no role and it's not a prerogative to help any country with their targeting and is that a fair summary sentence? >> it is a fair summary sentence and it is really valuable what we share. to put this in perspective for you, the country spends roufrly $80 billion on intelligence, there's a lot of discussion about what it might really be, but it's in that neighborhood

somewhere between, let's call it 60 billion and $120 billion that's the entire military budget. given what we've seen on the battlefield, we have no reason to believe that the russians understand what kind of intelligence we can deliver and this is where i get concerned about weakening russia. the united states of america wants a powerful, wealthy, prosperous russia that behaves by the basic rules ever decency, and as long as russia is led by a murderous oligarch or a murderous despot who is willing to very literally target innocent people in a country whose invasion was utterly unprovoked, he is going to and his nation will be subject to some of the most intense military and intelligence sharing that we can provide, but that ends tomorrow if the russian people or if vladimir putin decides that they'll get off this insane catastrophic

journey that they're on. it ends tomorrow if they decide that. >> congressman, last time we spoke you were just out of a meeting with speaker pelosi. since you and i last talked, she traveled to kyiv to meet with president zelenskyy with your colleagues and the topic of our conversation was whether or not this designation of russia were state sponsors of terrorism. is the conversation happening behind the scenes and if you have any updates on where those conversations stand. >> i know that's kind of the headline, right? but again, we can't lose sight of what the objective is. the objective is to isolate russia. it is a crime to do business with a terrorist organization, right? but guess what? germany and many european countries are doing business with the russians. i wish that wasn't true, but you cannot take 40% of the energy consumption and turn that off

overnight. so i'm much more interested in, let's not worry about what we call it. let's make sure the you were yoo europeans are on the path and the chinese, as well and that's what's important here. >> congressman, the ukrainians privately and publicly have great concerns that the west, not president biden and not their strong support on both sides of the aisle in congress and in this country and throughout the world grow tired or weir they it won't be our top story anymore. i'm sure they bring those concerns to you. what is your response or what is your sense of how these atrocities have sort of woken people up? >> i hear it sort of way beyond my life in television and politics. >> i see empty water bottles with kids at drop-off and you see imagis of houses of worship

all across this country where they're trying to help. what is your sense, not just in this country, but where thoughts of ukraine stand right now in the west. >> we're not gl to get this. we're not going to tire of this, nicole, for a number of simple reasons. most americans understand the unparalleled level of brutality and let's face it, both iraq and afghanistan, we did not cut and run quickly. we were in both places for 20 years. you had militias on this side and iran the other side and this is a clear-cut case of good versus evil and we will be there. look, i was just in a group with ukrainians in richfield. a small town most people have never heard of has stood up and dedicated itself regardless of party affiliation to do anything they can to help ukrainians and

we're here for the long haul. >> congressman, my friend and colleague has a question for you. >> i'll give a tiny little speech first, the reason there were nine generals that were targeted is because our military is much more horizontal. the authoritarian state's military is vertical. they have to send in generals because they don't delegate. and they don't allow personal initiative. what do we know about the state of the russian military and what possibilities that putin may resort to with a military that has effectiveness in power. >> a macho, despotic strong man will regret the day that he demonstrated to the world that his military is really incredibly incapable right?

you put your finger on it. the russian military doesn't have a good core and they are trying to keep it under the military understands what the intent is and as a result, they don't need one or two-star generals to how you can unpoor a tank or something. the russians have showed that they're incapable of doing combined arms deldation where you confirmed infantry, and that is about a guy wo creates about his macho abilities that the russian military is not nearly what we feared it was. >> that's amazing. you're right. underappreciated. congressman jim hines, thank you very much for spending some time with us and a shout out to

bridgefield. i certainly know where that is. that's a wonderful story. we'll try to get more information about that next time you're here. >> house speaker nancy pelosi will be our guest at this time tomorrow. it is her first interview since returning from that trip we were talking to congressman hines. a lot to talk to her about. please don't miss that. up next for us, most supporters and opponents of abortion rights have rallied outside of the supreme court all week. where does it go from here? new exclusive comments from first lady dr. jill biden. stay with us. l biden. stay with us the longest-lasting flea and tick protection. bravecto's the big winner. 12 weeks of powerful protection, nearly 3 times longer than any other chew. bravo, bravecto! bravo!

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welcome to a new chapter in investing. [ding] e*trade now from morgan stanley. how about those folks that can't even afford a greyhound bus ticket? how about all of those women and girls raped in states where they don't even make an exception for rape. talk about extremists. where the hell is my party? where is the democratic party? are you guys paying attention to what's going on? where's the party? why aren't we standing up more firmly, more resolutely? yes, they're winning. they are. they have been. let's acknowledge that. we need to stand up. where is the counter offensive? >> the $16 million question, right? that was california governor gavin newsom who has pledged his state an abortion sanctuary state after the draft of the

supreme court decision overturning roe leaked earlier this week, outrage in many corners of this country has rocked it, leading to protests and even this non-scalable fencing going up around the united states supreme court. democrats for their part are hoping that this outrage and emotion will energize voters heading into the midterms, some activists and elected officials are frustrated by what they see is a lack of unified akd by party leaders. let's bring in our conversation danielle holly walker dean and professor of law school and chair of the department of african-american studies of princeton university and msnbc political analyst rick stengel is here. gavin newsom's comments, they got my attention because -- the fight has moved farther and farther to the right. it used to be rooted in sort of the religious right. it moved way beyond that and

became the state abortion bans, the texas, that this vigilanteism around the supreme court and the viability bans and the elimination of exceptions for rape and incest. they are -- they are so extreme and they're fueled by something different, but to gavin newsom's point there as the right has become more fervent and more committed and more focused and yes, more successful, it does feel like there's a symmetry here. what are your concerns in that space? >> it's important to acknowledge that these are constitutional rights that are acknowledged to protect the constitution for almost half a century. in many ways, democrats haven't had to mobilize around these issues even though the women's right to choose has been kind of chipped away a lot over the last half a century, but because we've seen this as a

constitutional law issue and not a political issue in many ways that's hampered our ability to come up with solutions and clearly the day has come for political collusions both at the federal level and at the federal level. it's important for people to know that there is a women's health protection act out there. it was reintroduced and it has many sponsors in the house and in the senate and it is time for political mobilization and the ripping away of women's constitutional rights after a half century of protection and almost a half century of protection by roe is something that we have to reckon with in terms of changing the focus to the political and the constitutional law. >> rick, you and i were talking before the show about the opportunity to talk about how the right is being taken away by the most extreme conservatives and chief justice roberts isn't a part of this alito draft.

row was designed by republican justices with democratic and republican appointed justices and it's being yanked not by all on the supreme court, just its most extreme minutes. >> unprecedented as the justices have said in their testimony, but the idea is that this is a right that has been around for a long time. it has been established in law for as daniel said for 50 years, but the thing that i find so did i dispiriting about alito's opinion, it is not deeply rooted in the history that they would be considered 3/5 of a human being. >> danielle and i wouldn't vote. >> couldn't vote. >> by the way, eddie certainly couldn't vote and i couldn't vote unless i had property and

that was how narrow the franchise was. the idea that something that is deeply rooted in our history that's poisonous should be protected in some way is really an be on 16ity. the whole idea of law in america is about expanding the circle of liberty for people in america. that's the 250-year history of the court and they're going against it. what they're doing is radical, not conservative and it is at exactly judicial activism because it's reversing precedent. >> eddie, i feel like you're sometimes the most passionate, but the least surprised when we take these giant lurches backward. i wanted to speak to you about this decision. the floor is yours. >> yeah, so i was really struck by your question today -- earlier, and it seems as though the republican party, nicole, their passion about fighting for a world that they want, a world

that they think collapsed as a result of the revolutions of the mid-20th century, the black freedom struggle, the gay liberation movement and they have been fighting for 50, 60 years to implement that world and the question we have to ask is what are the democrats passionate about. are they passionate about this one? the world that we currently live in. are they passionate about procedures and processes? what we know is this is an assault on women and it's been an assault on voting rights and lgbtqplus and this is clear what these folk are doing and what kind kind willing to fight for. willing to fight on the sword for, and we've fought over and over again and this is the result of 50 years of fighting and organizing. what are the democrats doing in

response, and this is the question i've been grappling with since the brief was released. i've been trying to figure out who's going too fight for the world that ought to be as opposed to the world that it currently is, if that makes sense. >> it makes perfect sense. it's an echo of the information that we've had over and over and over again. why is the fight to take away the essential tenet of our democracy, free and fair elections more joined by passion on the right where it's all rooted in the lie or the left where they have facts and public opinion on their side. what is the structural explanation for that. the democratic party feels like a fore lorned lover. they've been trying to attract

the attention of the voters that rejected them in 1980. the reagan democrat. there's been this concern about them over and over again, so there's this delicate line and a sense in which they can't cross over, as it were. i honestly believe that this assault on women opens the door for further assault on rights. the assault on the 14th amendment. i honestly believe that this is a part of the attack on voting rights and this is part of the attacks on lgbtq+ communities and it seems to me that the energy of the base is going to evidence itself in the midterms and in the presidential election the party itself is going to have to make itself worthy and the folks are going to have to voice a concern and if not, god help us. >> to eddie's profound point. the first lady of the united states dr. jill biden has weighed in for the first time since the leaked majority

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to young women right now, particularly young women who are upset about the possible erosion of their ability to make decisions about their own bodies? >> well, i guess the first thing i would say is that -- how shocking it was, actually, when we heard the news, and joe and i got the call that, you know, it had been leaked. the president matters. the election of the president matters, because he's the one who puts the justices on the court, and then -- but if this goes to a state level, our state legislators are going to matter too. so, people have to get involved. >> we're back with our panel. danielle, i guess it's all connected, right? gavin newsom's impassioned question for the democrats and first lady dr. jill biden acknowledging that people have to get involved. what do you think will happen next? claire mccaskill said she's not sure this will change things. what do you think?

>> you know, i think one of the deepest ironies of this whole thing is that even in the draft opinion, justice alito says the solution is a political solution. women need to get involved, and they have tremendous electoral power. but we know that from shelby vs. holder, the supreme court case from almost a decade ago, so much of that political power has been eroded through lots of restrictive voting rights, and i also think if people are going to get involved, they want to see more substantive, more structural solutions. i was really compelled by what eddie was talking about in terms of what is the world that we envision, and we know that the stripping away of individual right like the right to abortion is not an isolated problem. this needs institutional and structural reform, including things like court reform and thinking about things like expanding the court. that's also not in the constitution. when he says, the right to abortion isn't in the constitution. neither is the fact that we have nine justices in the constitution, so i think people are looking for institutional

and structural reform to answer some of these very serious political questions that we're facing >> rick, do you think that conversation about court reform and the structural change is needed ensues? >> well, i think to -- >> oh, absolutely. >> sorry. >> to piggyback right on what both eddie and danielle are saying, that could be the democratic party platform, expand the court, enshrine privacy, inshrine roe. that should be a legislative -- >> the democrats can't even manchin and sinema on board. >> there are republican women senators. >> collins and murkowski. >> but some of it is just about the passion, not actually about the legislation, and as you said, you can't fight passion on one side with justice policy on the other. there has to be an equivalent passion. >> danielle holley-walker, rick stengel, thank you both so much. this conversation is to be continued. i really appreciate both of you. thank you so much. eddie glaude will be back in the next hour and you get to see more of msnbc's inclusive

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♪♪ it will give the public the benefit of what more than a year's worth of investigation has born of the committee. >> do you think any of those leaks take the wind out of the sails of the hearings at all? >> no.

because it was a leak. the good thing is we have a body of information that's not leaked. and you'll have to wait until the hearings to get the full benefit of the information we have. >> hi again, everyone, it's 5:00 in new york. tomorrow marks a year and four months since that deadly attack on the u.s. capitol and on our democracy. in that time, we've learned an awful lot about what took place that day as well as the planning that went into it. we learned, just to list a few of those things, that ex-president watched gleefully as his supporters stormed and ravaged the u.s. capitol, fueled and inspired by the lies he spread. we learned those violent protesters came within feet of vice president mike pence, who they were actively calling to hang as they elected a gallows. not only were right-wing extremist groups involved in this effort to overturn a free

and fair election victory but so too were sitting members of congress and just recently, thanks to those tapes published and released by alex burns and jonathan martin of the "new york times," we learned that donald trump's good friend, minority leader kevin mccarthy, was adamant about donald trump's culpability in the attack and that he felt strongly trump should not remain in office after january 6 lt. all those crucial revelations we learned mostly from excellent reporting and journalism, some of them from 1/6 committee filings, but as we heard from chairman bennie thompson of the 1/6 select committee at the top of the show, that committee has a lot more of a story to tell. thompson's comments are a relief to those, and if you're one of our viewers, that probably includes you, who have followed every twist and turn of the congressional investigation up to this point. and most of you, like me, probably still have a lot of unanswered questions, especially when it comes to this figure

featured prominently in the release of these new tapes, one kevin mccarthy. don't you want to know exactly what went down in that late january 2021 mar-a-lago meeting with donald trump? because we know that, as it happened, and right after the insurrection, kevin mccarthy believed this. >> yeah, but what the president did is atrocious and totally wrong. he bears responsibilities for his words and actions, no if, ands or buts. i think the options that have been cited by the democrats so far are the 25th amendment, which is not exactly an elegant solution here. >> that takes too long here. >> the only discussion i would have with him is that i think this will pass and it would be my recommendation he should resign. >> so, after saying that the 25th amendment, removing trump because he was unfit, the only problem with that, in kevin mccarthy's mind, was it would take too long, that's kevin mccarthy's view, something happens, changes his mind. here he is just a couple months later.

>> when i talked to president trump about it, i was the first person to contact him when the riots were going on. he didn't see it. what he ended the call was saying, telling me he'll put something out to make sure to stop this and that's what he did. he put a video out later. >> quite a lot later, and it was a pretty weak video, but i'm asking you specifically, did he say to you, i guess some people are more concerned about the election than you are? >> no, listen, my conversations with the president are my conversations with the president. i engaged in the idea of making sure we could stop what was going on inside the capitol at that moment in time. the president said he would help. >> really? when? what happens between thinking trump must go, 25th amendment, resignation or impeachment are the only options, and that guy? those questions are we start the hour with california congresswoman zoe lofgren, a member of the january 6th select committee.

i feel like you're always here when our questions are looming. what we learned from your filing in the, i think, the meadows contempt filing, is that his senior legislative aide, cassidy hutchins, testified to these members of kevin mccarthy's caucus, being involved in discussions about overturning the election results. scott perry, jim jordan, andy biggs, paul gosar, mo brooks, matt gaetz, jody hice, marjorie taylor greene, louis gohmert and lauren boebert. do you think that some of what kevin mccarthy or do you know that kevin mccarthy didn't possess as much knowledge of his own caucus participating in that high-level inner circle coup plot? do you think that's one of the things he learned before he had that reversal of views on trump's role? >> well, i don't know. he has not yet come in to talk

to us, although he should. he did, on one of those tapes that i heard on the news, along with everyone else, express concern about some of the members of the republican conference who could be inciting violence, so at least he was aware of that, apparently. but i don't know what goes through kevin mccarthy's mind. there's certainly a lot of questions that we should hear from him about. and we're hoping that he will come in. we expect him to come in. and we are reviewing our options to make sure that he does. >> can you complete a full and thorough investigation without understanding what kevin mccarthy knew at the time and what he meant a couple months later when he starts dissembling about those calls, that at least one member of your committee was on, liz cheney was on a bunch of those calls. >> we are going to do the best

we can with all the information we can compile. obviously, the, you know, we don't have the tapes that are being released by these two reporters after their book was published, but we're learning some things from that. we're learning things from overheard conversations. the question that chris wallace was asking about was reported by another republican member of congress who said publicly what kevin had told her about what the president said. so, we're piecing it together, but certainly, we expect, and the public should expect, these congress members took an oath to protect and defend the constitution, to come in and speak to the committee. that's their obligation, and so far, they have failed, but we expect them to respond. >> do the interviews with donald trump jr., kimberly guilfoyle,

ivanka trump, and jared kushner make any of these conversations more amicable among the republicans that you are trying to get to come talk -- i know the three that received letters have already said, no. does the participation of the president's children and in-laws, son and, i guess, future daughter-in-law is what ms. guilfoyle is, has it made any of those conversations easier or more promising? >> well, it's astounding, really, that the president's own family members have come in, in response to our requests that they do so. and yet, our colleagues are unwilling to do that. so, they're not behaving as properly as the president's own family. you know, they're making really ridiculous arguments to support their unwillingness to come in, that the committee is wrongly constituted. we have had numerous court rulings on that very point, the

committee is properly constituted. and we are doing this investigation, and we need them to come in and why they think they're better than the president's daughter and son and son-in-law, it's kind of a mystery, isn't it? >> maybe. i mean, when you look at the list of people that cassidy hutchinson testified to being inside the oval office and aware of the effort to pressure mike pence, who was sort of the, you know, i worked in a white house, you work for the president and the vice president, so republican members of congress, members of kevin mccarthy's caucus, were in there plotting to pressure mike pence to go way outside any authorities he had about counting or certifying the vote. how essential is sort of corroborating and understanding what the republican leader knew about his own members' role in the coup plot to your probe? >> well, it's one of the elements, but it's certainly not

the key element. it's not the only thing. we have a lot of information about what various republican members did to promote the plot, some from documents and some from testimony of others. but we would like to hear from the members of congress themselves. some things, we can find out from what they said publicly or did or issued statements publicly, but we're going to try and get a coherent and truthful picture for the american public. our hearings will begin next month, and we hope that it will be understandable and clear and digestible for people across the country. >> one of your colleagues described the testimony from ivanka and jared as sort of filling in some blanks. how would you characterize the testimony from the family members?

they were, i think, on don junior's part and ivanka's part, in and around the oval office on the morning of january 6th, ivanka was in and out as it went on. how important was their testimony to the story you plan to tell in the public hearings? >> well, as you know, the committee rules don't allow us to comment on individual's testimony unless there's been a vote and that has not yet occurred, but i will say this. they answered the questions. they didn't take the fifth amy. amendment. and they answered the questions they were asked. it was polite and direct. >> we covered at the top of the last hour this, i'll call it, revelatory line from a filing about an oath keeper who alleges to have had -- stewart rhodes, another member of the oath keepers, charged with seditious conspiracy, attempt to get donald trump on the phone. they wanted to continue to fight.

i wonder if you're learning new things from the doj criminal cases or if a lot of it is known to you. i know you have spent a lot of time with ali alexander and some other members of the militia groups. >> we don't know everything, and some of the doj filings are -- give us new information. the fact that this individual had contacts in the white house, he could get through to someone, and have his phone call -- i mean, your average citizen can't call in to the white house staff and have a conversation. so, clearly, there were connections and an expectation, at least on the part of that individual. that he would be heard by the president. so, it's concerning. >> understated way to put it. i want to ask you if we should expect more letters. you help us plan our coverage of the investigation as much as you

can, but we know that only three of these members that i read off, mr. perry, who we know was involved in fake electors, jim jordan, not sure there are many people closer to trump, andy biggs and a few of these people have received letters already. mr. ronny jackson is one of them. >> and kevin mccarthy, multiple. >> kevin mccarthy, i think, three or four. are we to expect or be sort of anticipating more letters to republican members to drop? >> well, stay tuned. we will have more information in the near future. >> all right. congresswoman zoe lofgren, thank you for starting us off and sharing what you can. always grateful for your time. joining our coverage, nick confessore, "new york times" political investigative reporter, matt dowd is here, political strategist, and founder of country over party. back with us onset, i lied about the one hour, we roped him in for another, former top state department official rick stengel

is still here. lucky for us, all three are msnbc contributors. nick, i start with you. betsy woodruff swan put it perfectly, the late breakthroughs the committee has had should not go unremarked upon, and that would include the president's children, ivanka trump, donald trump jr., and, i guess, kim guilfoyle is a future daughter-in-law, jared kushner is his son-in-law. they have all testified before the committee. as you heard from congresswoman lofgren, they answered the questions. there are no allegations they were uncooperative or hostile witnesses. what is your sense of the importance of this piece that certainly remains unresolved? and that is the testimony of kevin mccarthy or any members of his caucus. >> well, look, the full story of january 6th has not been told, nicole, and we learn more with every new turn of the screw. and a big emerging question or a

long-emerging question, i should sahat connections there were between the grassroots activists, some of whom were at the protest and later stormed the capitol, and people in actual positions of authority and leadership in congress. that's been a big open question. it's hard to know if leader mccarthy and the others are ducking the committee because what they would tell the committee would make them look bad or good. what we saw with leader mccarthy, in a sense, was a man who was taking very seriously what happened that day, the violence, the insurrection, the attempt to overturn a legitimate election, and was breaking glass, was considering breaking glass on the 25th amendment if he could make it happen through the white house. so, now, his colleagues further on down the food chain, the rank and file members who were really close to the maga movement and to trump, who had more contact with some of these groups that were organizing the protests, i think that's the big question. what did they know?

were they involved in anything that took us from the protests on the ellipse, the lawful protests to the unlawful attack on the capitol? >> i mean, matt dowd, coincidences are always possible, but it is an extraordinary coincidence, if we are to believe that roger stone, ali alexander, alex jones, and mike flynn -- mike flynn, who was spending more time inside the oval office than anyone working on the deadly covid pandemic, between the november election defeat and the ultimate inauguration of president joe biden -- that all those men, coincidentally, thought they needed security and happened to enlist the same domestic extremists in the oath keepers and that all those men who were in and out of the oval office didn't mention what the oath keepers were planning that day. it's possible. but it would be an extraordinary coincidence. >> well, and you add to it, the coincidence they were all enabling the big lie that caused

these people to respond in a way that was un-american, as we all know at this point. and so, you have to couple it with that. and so i think it's already been proven. they enabled this. now the question is, how active a participant were they in this? did some degree of active participation and hopefully this committee is going to find it out. my frustration with all this continues to be -- and i thought about this when i was reading what lincoln had told after -- as the civil war ended, what lincoln had told his generals, including grant, of how we should -- how we should conduct the south and what lincoln told was we have to resolve to bring the country together. doing that has two parts. one, we have to hold the leaders accountable who lied to their people, who pushed them into a civil war, whether it was political leaders or military leaders, and he said, for the average soldier who joined and fought and did what he did, we should let them go back to their lives and do their thing. so far, what's happened today is we've done the reverse of that.

we've punished the sort of soldiers of this movement who did these things, which we all agree were wrong, and we have -- as of yet, which i'm hoping will happen this summer, begun to hold the people that led people to this accountable. we have not held any general in this, any leader of this accountable, and i think that's where most of the american public is. they constantly think the only people held accountable are the sort of average foot soldiers of anything and the leaders of it always get off. >> and i'm sure matthew's not saying that people who commit crimes at the foot soldier level shouldn't be held accountable, but his point is a superb one. they weren't there on accident. they were there because donald trump tweeted on december 19th, be there, it will be wild, in quotes. donald trump, as we played in the last hour, told the proud boys to stand back and stand by. and again, regardless of what he meant, what he heard was standing by, they made t-shirts

and wore them and talked incessantly about standing by for donald trump. i guess i come back to the questions that i started with, with congresswoman lofgren, you know, kevin mccarthy's voice on those tapes is one of the most ominous things i've ever heard because what the republicans, night after night on fox news, have brainwashed their viewers into thinking is that no republican elected official thought donald trump had to go, whether by 25th amendment, resignation or impeachment. only radical leftists. but the leader of the republican party thought that donald trump had to go, and he says on tape, the only thing wrong with the 25th amendment, which, frankly, is the fastest way to get rid of a sitting president, for lack of fitness, you need -- what is it? three-fifths of the cabinet. i don't know if trump had that much of a cabinet at that point, they were all acting. the only problem kevin mccarthy was that was too slow.

he wanted trump gone faster than the 25th amendment would have gotten rid of him. the most haunting thing on the tapes is that kevin mccarthy saw the threat of donald trump exactly the same way we do. >> i wish, as i'm sure you do, that the public kevin mccarthy was a lot more like the private kevin mccarthy. >> does it matter? it's almost more titillating that he doesn't. what happened? >> well, i do think the truth of it is that we all realized that all of those folks, kevin mccarthy included, all of the members of the republican caucus actually saw it that way, that they are -- >> not the caucus. i mean, a dozen of them were in on the meetings to plot the coup. but the three leaders, kevin mccarthy, steve scalise, and liz cheney, who's the only one they couldn't see fit to coexist with, they did. >> yes, and by the way, that goes to matt's point, which is a good one, that we haven't roped in the leaders of the conspiracy. so these guys from the oath

keepers are indicted for seditious conspiracy. well, a conspiracy goes up this way. they're at the bottom level. what we really have to come up for the january 6th committee and for the justice department is who are the ring leaders? all that was needed was the tiniest little go signal and we have to find out who at that higher level did give the go signal to them. >> but do we? don't we know? did he say it on tv? quote, we love you? six takes of a video until they could get him to say, go home? and then he calls mccarthy and says, some people care more than you do, kevin, about the election. i guess to matt's point, do we cover something obvious before our eyes as a mystery to our own peril? >> well, i don't think it's a mystery to anybody, and again, it goes back to what we were talking about, about trump as the mob boss. he doesn't give the actual order. he says the words that could be interpreted both ways and the people, his acolytes, interpret it the way he wants.

and i don't think anybody's in doubt who the supreme leader was of it, right? but again, it's the justice department. it's the january 6th committee. they have to peel off people they can get. >> nick confessore, i want to give you the last word on this and ask you if you have any sense. your colleagues have incredible reporting on both these planks, both the doj efforts and they comb through all these findings and find what we're talking about here and your colleagues on the 1/6 committee do as well. do you have any sense that -- of the pace of either of those probes? obviously, the congressional piece is winding down. these are their final acts of an investigation. mike schmidt made that point in the last hour. but doj seems to be perhaps at an earlier phase of their probe. do you have any insights into sort of what stage and what pace they both are in right now? >> i can't share any great insights, nicole. i can say i've never seen a federal investigation this sprawling that moved quickly. ever. they are slow and methodical,

and not moving at political pace. but the basic question here is kind of the same one that rick was alluding to earlier. at what point do you go from creating conditions on the ground that might move in your direction if you're a leader and at what point are you actually directing them and what's really the difference? in politics, in war, or in revolution. it can be hard to know sometimes. >> oh, on that, matt, i got to get you back in. on these questions, the bigger questions about the passion with which republicans bring to their anti-democratic moves and what i think a lot of people feel like is a lack of energy and activity on the efforts to protect them, what do you think about the fact that, if anything's going on at doj that gets to the people you're talking about, the ring leaders, it's very, very quiet? >> well, to me, the -- ultimately, i'm not so much concerned with developing a criminal conspiracy and who gets prosecuted.

i'm more concerned at who gets prosecuted politically in this. that, to me, is the most concerning, because in the end, november elections are going to determine what direction we actually believe we want this country to go in. is it the ideals of our constitution and democracy? or is it another direction? republicans have already chosen the direction they wanted to go. they've already made that choice. and i think some combination of a revelatory january 6th commission with public hearings and with what is possibly could happen with roe vs. wade will solve the motivation problem among democrats in a nanosecond. >> famous last words, right? nick confessore, matt dowd, rick stengel, to be continued. thank you so much for starting us off today. when we come back, the united states crosses the grimmest coronavirus milestone to date as the world health organization reports a staggering global death toll, far beyond what we already knew. how we got here is next. plus, how russia is ramping up its disinformation campaigns

as it looks to destroy the remaining ukrainian fighters left alive in mariupol. ahead of what vladimir putin will try to project as a victory celebration days from now. and the national security implications of overturning roe vs. wade. there are very real concerns that reversing roe would do harm to the readiness of the united states military. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break. "deadline white house" continues after a quick break.

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the unknown, tethered to a new highly contagious disease that people didn't know very much about. we're also not likely to forget what those early days look like. empty streets, deserted town centers, mass transit at a virtual stand still. it was on february 29, 2020, that we first learned an american had died of the coronavirus. now, 796 days later, a tragic and morbid new milestone. data compiled by nbc news indicates that the united states on wednesday surpassed 1 million covid-19 deaths, a million people, a million stories, a million moms, dads, grandmas, grandpas, kids, and counting. it's too big, right? just this morning, the world health organization estimated that the global death toll is actually much higher than the official estimate of 6 million. they say nearly 15 million people were killed by this disease or by itself effect on overwhelmed healthcare systems. we're back with eddie glaude,

chair of the department of african american studies at princeton university, and an msnbc contributor. and someone you and i rumbled so many days with this loss and this grief, and every person lost, we tried to memorialize them here. we did it every day in lives well lived at the end of our show, and i think ultimately became too much, but people didn't stop dying. people didn't stop losing their moms and dads and grandparents and sons and daughters, and it hasn't stopped to this day. what do we do with that? >> that's the question. what have we done with it? you know, i was thinking about crossing this milestone, nicole, and walt whitman's prose came to mind, the million dead too summed up and there's a line where he says, the dead, the dead, the dead, our dead, ours

all. that south and north, and he's referring here to the civil war and the carnage unleashed by that brutal war. and trying to make sense of death at that scale, and so what does it mean for us to claim all of these mothers and fathers, uncles and aunts, friends, brothers and sisters as our dead, as ours? but it seemed -- seems, at least to me, and you can tell me if i'm wrong, nicole, that mass death at this scale can't be private, alone. it can't be dealt in the privacy of our homes, alone. it's too many. and we haven't dealt with it at this scale, at the level of ritual that is required. so, we have all of these americans grieving, grieving, and it seems as if we're trying to move into a different phase, like you remember what followed the pandemic of the 19 -- of 1916, '17, and '18, right? the quote, unquote, spanish flu.

it was the roaring '20s. we wanted to forget. i don't think we can do that now. a million dead. the dead. our dead. ours all. yeah. >> and you know, the world health organization, i think, tried to do something i'm not sure we grappled with here either. it's all the related deaths and all the related suffering and we have this mountain of mental health crisis. we have college athletes, men and women, glorious in their youth and their talent and their promise, taking their own lives adjacent to this pile of grief we have, you know, we don't know if their stories intersect with the pandemic, but they certainly coincide with it, and i wonder who and where and when that conversation starts, eddie glaude. >> you know, i think just you raising the question is so important. it's so important. it's not only athletes. it's our children. i teach them. can you imagine, you had these kids who didn't have high school

graduations, who then had to go to college and -- via zoom. they've -- it has impacted their socialization, the ways in which they interact with folk, how they deal with heartbreak, how they deal with the complexities of love. you know, we have value in this country, for so long, hard work and material gain that oftentimes we lose sight of the humanity of the individual, of everyday, ordinary people and how fragile we are. and to lose a million people plus, to lose people at this scale, that fragility is in full view, and many of us are broken, and we're going to have to deal with that if we're going to move forward, and it's not just about interest rates. it's not just about jobs. it's about the human beings right in front of us, i think. >> we have to continue this, and we have to find an umbrella to put it under to protect the time, because it's everything,

right? i mean, it's our connections. it's -- you're talking about your students and your kids and it's the connections they lost and how we're still all plugging back into each other. it's so important, a more important conversation cannot be had. eddie glaude, only you can have it with me. thank you so much. for spending time with us today. >> thank you, nicole. when we come back, fierce fighting in that steel plant in mariupol that we have been covering now for weeks. it's a city that is vital to vladimir putin's -- not just his military plan but his disinformation campaign, and with just days to go before russia's victory day, people are deeply anxious about what that means for mariupol. we'll have a live report from our dear friend, cal perry, in kyiv after a quick break. end, cn kyiv after a quick bakre it's 5:00 a.m., and i feel like i can do anything. we've been coming here, since 1868. there's a lot of cushy desk jobs out there, but this is my happy place. there are millions of ways to make the most of your land. learn more at deere.com

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in ukraine, russian forces continue to attack the azovstal steel factory in mariupol after rescue operations over the weekend of some of those civilians. the commander for one of the last remaining ukrainian battalions inside the plant tells nbc news, as of last night, russian troops had broken into the site and that, quote, heavy, bloody battles were being fought. this despite moscow saying it would stop military activity today to allow humanitarian operations to resume. new reporting in the "washington post" shows that the kremlin is now refocusing its efforts on striking infrastructure critical to the ukrainian resupply

mission, including electrical substations, a railroad facility, and a bridge in two major cities, including lviv in the western part of the country. it all comes with the looming threat of victory day on may 9th where russia celebrates the soviet union's victory in world war ii and reports suggest putin may try to expand the war in ukraine on that day. let's bring in someone who told us about all these stories ahead of time, cal perry live in kyiv for us. so, cal, i want to start with some brand-new reporting from our colleague, courtney kube, at the pentagon on the heels of this "new york times" report that u.s. intelligence was sharing intelligence that may have helped the ukrainians kill several high-level russian generals. what courtney kube is reporting now is that intelligence shared by the u.s. helped ukraine sink the russian cruiser "moskva." officials confirmed an american role in the most embarrassing blow to vladimir putin's troubled invasion of ukraine.

any reaction where you're reporting from on either of these developments? >> reporter: only off the record and on background and i'm going to read a paragraph from the report that you just read from because i think this paragraph is the key paragraph for people here. american officials have expressed concerns that reporting about u.s. intelligence sharing with ukraine could anger putin and provide an unpredictable response. that is to say, i think people here are wondering why these reports are coming out. you have the ukrainian military boasting about killing these generals, at least 12, according to the ukrainian military. and they will tell you, and this is not off the record or on background. this is on the record. that russian officials, russian generals, especially on the front, have no operational security. that is, they're talking on their cell phones, they're making personal calls. you and i have talked about the intercepts of russian soldiers calling home, telling their relatives what they're doing and where they are. this is something that would never happen in a professional army, in a western army. secure communications are kind of the first and foremost thing,

so ukrainian officials have been talking about the killing of these 12 generals, and they have been leaving out perhaps the assist that u.s. intelligence has given them. u.s. intelligence, and officials today, are sort of walking back that "new york times" report by saying, we share intelligence. we don't directly share intelligence to target russian generals. what happens down range sort of happens. you then have this report, this new report about the sinking of this flagship, the moskva, and now u.s. intelligence officials are saying that they had a hand in it. it's very strange timing here, because you're going to have officials expressing concerns about the sharing of intelligence because, of course, moscow has said they will hold responsible any nato nation that is supporting this effort in a direct way, and it would seem as though this intelligence is direct support, nicole. >> well, i mean, congressman chris himes was on our show sort of widening the aperture a little bit and saying that u.s. intelligence on russian plans for ukraine is un -- it is

unchanged, basically, since before the invasion, when u.s. intelligence agencies knew exactly what russia had planned so far as to predict the invasion and i think anger president zelenskyy. it's almost as though, on the intel side, that the dynamic of the relationship is unchanged. it's just the reaction and public sentiment, maybe, inverted. now it is, frankly, probably not welcome in either country that this has been exposed and we don't know from these stories by whom or where. but what the pentagon seemed to emphasize is we have no role in targeting. no one was really suggesting that we do. but the information sharing, the intelligence sharing being ongoing, to you standing there, probably isn't that much of a surprise, right? we're sharing everything else. our weapons, our weapons supplies, i mean, it really isn't a shocking development that intelligence is flowing between these two countries. >> reporter: no. i think the -- absolutely. i think the only shocking thing

is -- >> is that it's out. >> reporter: is what they're choosing to disclose -- right, exactly. so much of this has been bizarre from an operational security standpoint. so three months ago, i'm at a camp in north carolina talking to u.s. soldiers and then they sort of redeploy to poland, and normally, that would be the last i would see of them. i fly to poland, and i'm able to talk to them through a chain link fence. so, the operational security rules here have completely changed. the u.s. wants to show certain things. they want to show they're coming to the aid of ukraine. they want to show they're rushing weapons into this country. they don't want to show how they're doing it. they don't want to clarify, we're doing it via the railroad. we kind of know they are now because russia's hit all the rail lines. so they want to show they're supporting but they don't want to give up too much information. what's strange about the unnamed sources, u.s. intelligence officials, is again i think you're going to see pushback from the ukrainian government. the ukrainian government wants to be seen as fighting this war because they are fighting this war on the ground. they're getting support via

weapons, but they also want to show the world that they are very efficient at this battle, that they can do this on their own, which is why they're saying, we killed these 12 russian generals. the u.s. provided battlefield assessments, battlefield support, but again, we intercepted the phone calls, we had the intelligence on the ground, and this is also, by the way, something they're showing on national tv. they're playing phone calls and showing photos of the russian generals they're saying they've killed. it is this u.s. support that i think has people here and we'll see what the nato countries say, has people here questioning a little bit whether or not this puts more nato countries in the line of fire of russia and if that's something that they would very much like to avoid which would. they have said they're worried about an outbreak of world war iii. >> i think that's a fear echoed here as well. but i think you just made the most salient point. the people fighting and dying in this war, ukrainians. so, thank you for grounding us as in the truth. there's only one truth there. i'm grateful to you, cal perry, in kyiv. please stay safe, my friend.

when we come back, how overturning roe vs. wade could impact the readiness of the u.s. military. we'll explain after a quick break. military we'll explain after a quick break. it's time to get outdoorsy. it's hot! and wayfair has got just what you need. we need a rug. that's the one. yeah. yeah we're getting outdoorsy. save on outdoorsy furniture, decor, and more. you're so outdoorsy honey.

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and fast itch relief for adults. with dupixent, you can show more skin with less eczema. hide my skin? not me. don't use if you're allergic to dupixent. serious allergic reactions can occur that can be severe. tell your doctor about new or worsening eye problems such as eye pain or vision changes, including blurred vision, joint aches and pain, or a parasitic infection. don't change or stop asthma medicines without talking to your doctor. when you help heal your skin from within, you can change how your skin looks and feels. and that's the kind of change you notice. talk to your eczema specialist about dupixent, a breakthrough eczema treatment. there's new reporting by defense one that examines how overturning roe vs. wade could undermine national security. troops will need to get a leave of duty approved, travel to another state, and potentially

incur other expenses such as a hotel stay. the increased burden could prompt women to take matters into their own hands and either seek out unsafe abortions or try to terminate the pregnancy on their own. this burden is compounded by the fact that many military installations are located in states that either have laws on the books banning abortion or are likely to once roe is overturned. joining our coverage, amy mcgrath, former kentucky senate candidate and retired u.s. marine corps lieutenant colonel. she is now the founder of the sos project, something we talked about last week, her effort to defeat trump-backed and pro-lie-supporting secretaries of state. and secretary of state candidates. you're back so soon because we saw this story yesterday and wanted to really understand how overturning roe would affect women and men in the military. what are your thoughts about that? >> well, i'd like to simply point out that it doesn't just affect military women, but it

affects military families. you know, those people who serve in the united states military don't get to choose what state they're assigned to. quite often, they don't actually vote in the state that they're assigned to. they're a resident of another state, so it's not like they're voting for state representatives. so when a basic right goes away, and you leave it up to the states, now they're assigned to a state where they didn't necessarily even vote in. also, most bases, as you mentioned, are in the south and in the west. so the very places where abortion ranks go away are the same place where is a lot of times someone -- a woman in the military is quite likely to be assigned to those bases. and the other thing is, when something happens and you're in the military -- say for example, there's sexual assault or god

forbid a rape, and you have to now pack your bags and try to go ten states over to get medical care. a lot of times you can't get that leave. there's a confidentiality thing. you can't just, unlike civilian life, just pack up and leave. you're bound by duty to stay, and you could actually be prosecuted for going. so there's all kind of issues there, not to mention the most basic one, that this is the first time a support is poised to take a right away from us. and i think that goes to the bigger issue, nicole, of elections matter. this is a direct result of four years of presidency of donald trump, and frankly a republican senate led by mitch mcconnell, who, you know, held up a supreme court seat, a legitimate supreme court seat in merrick garland. we're seeing the results of that, and it reminds us how important elections are, because

this is preview to republican rule in the future. >> you mentioned something that defense one also reports on, and it is the high levels of sexual assault in the military right now. defense one write, aaron cuomo worked in the marines. quote, when you have the high sexual assault rates our country has seen in the military, it's going to impact the readiness of the force. if a woman the considering enlisting i would encourage her to rethink that choice. obviously this is one person interviewed there, but is this view prevalent? is this a deep concern? >> well, i think it's a concern. and, you know, one in three female veterans have reported some sort of military sexual tra

trauma in their time in the service. that's a very high number. we also know a high number of sexual assaults are not reported. and the concern i have and that many have with this potential ruling by the supreme court is that you're now going to drive these women even more underground. they're going to feel even less protected. and the military is already grappling with trying to protect women and service members and their families from some of these really crazy far right-wing conservative social restrictions and laws. namely the ones in florida and texas. the military is already looking at, how do we take care of our military families who have transgender kids and are lgbt in order to protect them? so we're already seeing this, and the military now is going to

have to lack at, how do we protect women from these states where you're not going to be able to get basic health care. this is what we're seeing. >> when you were here, we were talking about this fight that you've engaged in to make sure that people who believe in the rule of law and believe in the free and fair election, that those kind of people are the next secretary os state. we talk about how that could be bipartisan if there were republicans who saw the truth about 2020. when you see how roe vs. wade was decided with people nominated by conservative presidents and democratic presidents, kc, which affirmed the right to privacy, there were conservatives and liberals who signed on to that decision. when you see this court, not even all the people appointed by republican presidents, at least in this draft, appear to be on board with this majority

opinion. what are your thoughts about the stakes in the 2022 and 2024 election? >> i think they're high. we have supreme court justices appointed by the president who was not -- by the who was impeached twice. beyond that you have supreme court justices appointed by presidents not elected by the popular vote. example number 555 of why elections matter. and i understand the frustration that many democrats have with the fact that all of the agenda hasn't been able to be enacted, but my message is, what is the alternative? >> right. >> you're looking right now at what the alternative could be. and make no mistake, it doesn't end with roe vs. wade. i mean, this is just the beginning of this right-we

think, you know, republican social agenda. i'm afraid to say. and that's why i'm working so hard on the secretary of state project, because that is the path that donald trump is going to get if he gets to the white house. and again, for me it's about pro democracy. it's just about counting the votes, but we've got to make sure we count the votes correctly. >> amy mcgraw, thank you so much for spending time on this with us today. quick break for us. we'll be right back. l be right . , with glucerna. it's the number one doctor recommended brand that is scientifically designed to help manage your blood sugar. live every moment. glucerna.

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so, congratulations, and i can't wait to see you bring your own style and brilliance to this job. >> love you, jen. >> love you. >> two remarkable women. that happened earlier this hour. that was white house press secretary jen psaki introducing her successor. viewer of this show already know her, karine jean-pierre. the biden administration made the announcement this afternoon.

while she's abundantly qualified she's making history -- she'll be the first black woman and gay person to hold the position of white house press secretary. president biden said karine will bring experience, tall intent, integrity to her new role. you've all seen her on our show over the years. she's all been clear eyed and honest in all our conversations, and we know that's what she brings to the job at white house press secretary. we look forward to watching that transition to white house podium. thank you to all of you for letting us into your home on this thursday. we are so grateful. "the beat "can ari melber starts now. >> i don't know if that's a formal vote of confidence, but it comes with experience onnure part. >> i meant to say this and i was excite about karine. so karine, when she was sharing her insights here had that remarkable sort of