us on this thursday morning. "morning joe" starts right now. now, it's been said that i urged my husband to nominate her as our first female secretary of state. unlike much that's said, this story is true. and i was thrilled when he agreed. when dictators dragged their feet or ambassadors filibustered, madeleine never hesitated to speak up. just in case they didn't get the message, she would put on a snail pin to signal her impatience. a dozen times a day, she would ask her team, what's next?

turning her boundless energy and intellect to yet another crucial global challenge. she was irrepressible, wickedly funny, very stylish, and always ready for a laugh. she brought the same energy to her friendships as she did to her diplomacy. so the angels better be wearing their best pins and putting on their dancing shoes because if, as madeleine believed, there is a special place in hell for women who don't support other women, they haven't seen anyone like her yet. >> hillary clinton remembering another trailblazing secretary of state madeleine albright, who was laid to rest yesterday,

honored by world leaders as a force for good. president biden saying she could go toe-to-toe with the toughest dictators. we're going to have much more from the funeral of the late secretary of state. it was truly amazing. hillary clinton was truly amazing. plus, a new push to shore up ukraine now and in the months to come, as president biden prepare prepares to ask congress for a new aid package. it goes beyond just military support. and a new video from a ukrainian military commander who was holed up inside that steel plant in mariupol, pleading with the international community to, quote, extract everyone as soon as possible. also, new developments adding to fears the war could expand beyond ukraine. and millions of ukrainians have fled to safety by train. later this morning, we'll talk to the head of ukraine's rail system about the workers who continue to put their lives in jeopardy in service of their

country and their people. good morning and welcome to "morning joe." it is thursday, april 28th. a lot to get to. joe and willie, the funeral for madeleine albright was so inspiring. it was so touching. it was so beautiful. she was so incredible. >> she really was. willie, here you have an immigrant who he says family was chased out of her country in europe, first by hitler, then by stalin. a woman who came to america and became just a clear voice for freedom, for liberty, for american exceptionalism at home and across the globe. to use that american power for the same reason dr. brzezinski and her talked about, using american power all the time for good, for liberty, for freedom,

and for the very things that the people of ukraine are fighting for right now. a timely, timely message to the people of ukraine and the world. the angels better be wearing their best pins. willie, certainly yesterday, washington did its best to say good-bye to an immigrant, a trailblazer, an american hero. >> yeah. the embodiment of the american dream. sailed with her mother past the statue of liberty, into ellis island. fleed hitler and then stalin and communism. mika, you were in the room, at the national cathedral yesterday. stirring speeches, of course, by the boldfaced names, but also by her daughters. i thought those speeches were incredibly moving. you got a chance to speak later at an event at the institute of peace, where there is a hall named for madeleine albright who, as i say, spent her life living out the dream that she and her mother had to find freedom and to ensure it for other people around the world.

>> it was truly an amazing day. by the end of this event at the institute for peace, we were all exhausted but in a really good way. where you felt so inspired by madeleine's legacy. you had leaders and foreign ministers from all around the world, from georgia, from kosovo, from belarus, and, of course, the czech republic. madeleine albright, of course, refugee from czechoslovakia. it was one of those events where you really felt caught up in the moment. joe, i'll tell you, i spoke after steven hadley, and was sweating. i felt so -- i felt like, oh, boy, i was told to express personal stories about madeleine albright and had this very last minute of panic, that perhaps mine were too personal and random compared to the unbelievable speakers they had in this unbelievable hall named

after madeleine corbel albright who had changed the world in so many ways. so much so, people traveled from literally around the world to get there to honor her. >> yeah. well, of course, they did honor her. world leaders honored her. spoke wonderful things about the difference she made. people like steven hadley got up and spoke eloquently about the difference she make in u.s. policy and international policy. but your job, mika, was not that, not for a 12-point plan for the next marshall plan. i think they wanted to hear the stories you told. the stories about how when you all came to washington, d.c., madeleine albright told your father, who he had hired, hey, you know what, you sit down at the desk. you do the work. i'm going to find a place for your family to live. not only did she go out and find

the farmhouse that you grew up in your entire life, she told your father to sit down and keep working, that your mother needed to be thanked for all she was doing. she was going to go out and find her a horse. >> yes. >> if that wasn't enough, she then took active interest in where your brothers were going to college. when ian got admitted to stanford, she said, "well, stanford is good. it's a good school, but that's not where you're going. you're going to go to williams." she was in charge of that, as well. of course, would call mika on her father's birthday every morning because the brzezinski women are so absolutely terrible at remembering birthdays. madeleine albright would remember birthdays for them. >> she would. >> mika, you had that personal touch with her. i think most of the world saw what a tough diplomat she was and how she just got things

done. but you saw so much of her humanity. we'd see it every time she came on the set and spoke with us, commercial breaks, and then sort of turned it on when it came to policy. but you had such a rare glimpse. there is a shot of your father over her left shoulder. there's a rare glimpse over the years at her humanity and personal touch. >> yeah. no, she loved us very much. i'm not sure why. put up with us. we're all so blessed to have known her. she gave us that horse, by the way. we didn't have a barn, so we tied it to a tree in mcclain, virginia. you're getting a picpicture, ri? it was very eastern european, very different. but we loved her so much, and she had an impact in every phase of our development as me and my brothers grew up. more later. we remembered madeleine albright, and it was so worth it. to the news now. president biden is expected to ask congress to fund a new aid

package for ukraine today. in scheduled remarks from the white house this morning, two sources tell nbc news the president will lay out the details of a, quote, massive request, which is intended to last through september. the u.s. has already provided ukraine with more than $3 billion in aid since the invasion began, including an $800 million package announced last year. -- week. following that spending, the white house nearly run out of funding authorized by congress. according to the pentagon, ukrainian troops now have half of the howitzers the united states pledged to send. >> ammunitions continue to flow into ukraine. the united states is helping to coordinate. we know they're extending rounds every single day, of all different types and calibers. we're doing everything we can. the flow continues, to make sure that they can stay in the fight.

>> that comes as russia continues to escalate its rhetoric. yesterday, president putin warned of, quote, lightning fast retaliation should the west interfere in ukraine. let's bring in former natocomma admiral james stavridis. chief diplomacy analyst for nbc news and msnbc. and u.s. national editor at the "financial times," ed luce is with us. also here with us in washington, washington bureau chief for "usa today," susan page. nice to have you all with us. joe, in ukraine, again, they are holding out in that steel plant, but i don't know how much longer they can. >> yeah. it's remarkable. a remarkable courage. you know, i was watching yesterday, bill clinton speak. reminded me of newt gingrich coming back when the government

was shut down. he said, i've never seen anything like this guy. he asks you -- he makes a demand. you give him everything he demands, and he still is sitting there just shaking his head. you actually feel bad that you have just given him everything he's asked for. apparently, bill clinton and president zelenskyy went to the same school of negotiations. zelenskyy constantly talking about what the united states has not done for him. here, we have $3 billion already. $300 million more probably coming his way. the united states, what it's done, is nothing short of extraordinary. julia yoffee had a wonderful piece yesterday, talking about zelenskyy is -- there is still a bitterness toward the west. at the same time, even they recognize how much the united states has done. but the biden administration not even rolling their eyes, said

they understand. they understand the constant complaints about the west from zelenskyy. but i'm just -- i would like you to let the american people know right now, those watching this morning, just how much the united states has done to keep ukraine in the fight. and what this new aid package means. >> it's an enormous step. really, if you look back to, say, world war ii, and you look at what the united states was doing for a very beleaguerbelea encircled united kingdom, this is really beginning to hit those levels. in fact, we're hearing historical echoes, as you know, joe, of the lend-lease program, which was the cornerstone of what franklin delino roosevelt did for winston churchill. we are in that same mode here

with our friends in ukraine. i think the stakes are equally high. so we can do this. let's also recall from those days, once you get the arsenal of democracy, as it's been called, our ability to produce real combat capability, once you get it rolling, watch out. and so, a, we can do this. b, it's the right thing to do. back to our dear mutual friend madeleine albright, one of the last conversations i had with her early in this year was talking about nato and the nato role in all of this. you know, madeleine strategically wrote the plan for nato in 2010. read it. it holds up pretty well. she said even then, before the invasion, in the end, this is going to be about our ability to put weapons in the hands of ukrainians. we're doing it right.

it's the right thing to do. >> so, you know, i am curious. you bring up the parallels with the lend-lease act and world war ii. i am curious, if this continues much longer, if we don't find ourselves in a position where we were in 1942, 1943, when it became evident even to the germans, that because of the united states industrial power, germany could not win the war, it reminds me of -- again, i've gone back and have been reading david kennedy's "rise and fall of the great powers" again. his classic was from '87 or '88. you read about that, and it is one empire after another that collapses because its industrial input is overwhelmed by foreign adversaries. i've said it time and time again here, even before this invasion, we have about 35, 40 times the amount of industrial production in the united states and the eu

versus russia. they can't -- can they? they can't keep up with this, can they? they're going to have to search for peace or be destroyed. >> correct, over time. let's do a couple other numbers quickly. sometimes americans feel as though, well, the russians and nato are roughly equally armed. could not be further from the truth. the russian entire defense budget is $70 billion. the defense budget of the united states alone is ten times that, well over $700 billion. the russians have 5,000 combat aircraft. nato has 28,000 combat aircraft. russia has essentially a handful of capable ships, maybe 100. nato has 700. by the way, scratch one of the russian ships, its flagship. it's not just the industrial might. it is what exists today.

all of that augers very well for a sudden clarification in the russian mind. here's the problem, the problem is vladimir putin. he is so personally invested. he is so deeply angry. he still has other weapons at his disposal, chemical weapons. god forbid nuclear weapons. the latter extremely unlikely. the former, not out of the range of the imagination. and he could use cyber as a very significant capability. so you're showing his face now. he is an angry, bitter, frustrated man who is personally invested in that. i'm not sure he's toting up the score in industrial capability and budgets, but we need to do everything we can to make it clear to him, he cannot win the foot race. >> until then, he continues to terrorize the people of ukraine. a ukrainian marine commander is appealing to the world for urgent help to evacuate the thousands of civilians and fighters still trapped inside that steel plant in mariupol.

in a video posted online yesterday, he urged the international community to, quote, extract everyone as soon as possible. he said, in part, the situation is very difficult. there is a big problem with water, food, other supplies. he also said there are 600 injured fighters inside the factory. adding, there are no medications or personnel that could help them. russian forces are accused of terrorizing the remaining civilians in the besieged city, and said ukrainian citizens are stripped of their phones, screened, and identified through a filtration process before they can enter or move around within mariupol. a ukrainian human rights official said russian citizens do not need any permit or identification. so, admiral, let me go to you again on this. what about the question of extraction? it's clear that vladimir putin and the russians are not going to allow these humanitarian corridor, for all their nods to it, to get into mariupol. there are people dying inside the plant.

they don't have food, water, medical supply. through all their courage, you wonder how much longer they can hold up. what's left here to save these people? >> the only, if you will, immediate tactical thing you could think about would be to extract them by sea. boy, does that get complicated instantly. very, very difficult. gets us back to the same concerns we have with putting up a no fly zone or putting nato boots on the ground. but perhaps one could be thinking about using the sea,no telling the russians to stand back. that is very complicated and very dangerous. i think the best path forward remains negotiation with putin. perhaps putting more pressure on the economic side with a particular goal, a actical one to begin with. small note of potential here, we

just saw an exchange of a hostage being held in the united states for an individual that we had appropriately incarcerated here in the united states. the russians are transactional. perhaps there is a transaction that can help here. >> so we're going to hear from the president a little later this morning. susan, i want to get to you on that. but, ed luce, you have a piece, "putin's other war on behalf of men." i couldn't say the backlash against modernity by putin is both deadly serious and irresistibly comical. explain this, please. >> well, this is the meme factory that's coming, not just from the likes of tucker carlson and the right in this country, but it is coming from the kremlin. which is this idea that russia stands for masculinity, for western traditional values, for

men, for testosterone, for values. one in seven ukraine soldiers are women. they have lgbtq brigades. they have gay people fighting for the ukrainian military. openly gay. even though ukraine is a fairly conservative society, it's a gay pride march compared to russia. and so this is deeply humiliating for putin. there are women soldiers who are part of this very effective resistance, that's partly maybe wholly defeating the russian military operation. we shouldn't underestimate the degree putin pays attention to the culture wars in the united states and feeds into them. this is also an information war against western democracy. his allies in other democracies, le pen in france who, of course, lost last sunday, but also the

putinista right in this country. these groups work, you know, very closely together, and putin knows how to signal to them. so we shouldn't underestimate this aspect of the war, the information war. >> so that's -- susan page, i want to get back to the aid. more aid announced. more aid going. obviously, most people want to see this war end and see the ukrainians prevail, except for those who somehow follow vladimir putin. but, you know, as much aid as we can give to this one area of the world, we're still stuck with this crazed, angry man stuck in time, who is a fixture on the world stage. it's almost like the aid is a band-aid that, again, puts the problem off, a problem that ed luce was framing, that has many prongs to it. >> it is interesting when we think about this new effort for u.s. aid and the incredible

amount of money. >> incredible. >> that the united states is giving. american officials did not think there'd still be a war to fund at this point. i mean, there was an assumption by the west that, by this time, the war would be over after a russian invasion. that's what has given the ukrainians and president zelenskyy the ability to continue to demand more and more and more. because the ukrainians have paid in blood. >> they are. >> proving that they are there, even without our troops on the ground. even with the limits of the u.s. involvement. and paying the price, that has made the case for americans to send more aid. >> it really was amazing. on the show this week, the minister of ukraine saying, we are paying the price for the world's safety, and with such a resolute calm. saying, we're doing it. we're paying in blood. everyone stay with us. admiral, stay with us. we'll continue this. there's many more headlines to

get to. still ahead on "morning joe," there are growing fears that the war in ukraine could expand to other neighboring countries. we'll get to that reporting. plus, we'll be joined by senator chris coons who is pushing congress to take a more active role when it comes to ukraine. also this morning, beijing cracks down on restrictions amid a spike in covid cases. the government has put down protests while drones make public announcements, telling people to, quote, control your soul's desire for freedom. hello. and dr. anthony fauci sounds cautiously optimistic about the end of the pandemic. but he's not attending the white house correspondents dinner this weekend, after the gridiron dinner a few weeks ago became a super spreader. we'll get to the new reporting on president biden's participation at this weekend's event, what that means. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. joe. we'll be right back.

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♪♪ beautiful shot of the white house at 6:27 in the morning. you look at the white house, and you look at the sun rising over washington, d.c.. in the background, you can see the washington monument. you just -- the freedom. america stands for freedom, and they can't take that away. you know, i look at that shot. >> wow. >> i mean, i feel like singing lee greenwood right now. >> please don't. >> every once in a while -- i love lee greenwood. every once in a while, there is a quote that encapsulates what freedom means. as i look it a this, i remember martin luther king. for every mountainside, let freedom ring, right?

robert frost, i always loved robert frost. robert frost said freedom lies in being bold. and i remember reading a quote from herbert hoover. herbert hoover said, freedom is the open window through which pours the sunlight of the human spirit. isn't that beautiful? >> beautiful. >> willie, in a few minutes, we're going to be talking about a new quote that they spread in china when they're talking about freedom. >> oh, right. >> drones going over people's heads in freedom. that says, control your soul's desire for freedom. >> well, that's just sick. >> you have to ask why free democratic societies prevail over oppressive, tyrannical authoritarian societies? we always do. every, like, couple decades, people start whining and say,

freedom doesn't work. it is too ugly. it is too messy. people are always fighting. they say nasty things about each other, you know? and, yet, you look at what -- you look at what's happening in china. there is no history there. they don't own the future. because they're trying to enslave people's hearts. control your soul's desire from freedom. it is a far cry from, from every mountainside, let freedom ring. >> you know, i wanted to add to your list, exhaustive list, george michaels' 1990 hit "freedom," i will not give you up. i will not let you down. "freedom" by george michaels. >> exactly. >> you have 25 million people in shanghai being literally locked and fenced into their homes. >> my god. >> you cannot suppress the basic human instinct for freedom. they're starting to see pushback to the extent you can push back in china. by the way, there are talks this

might be coming to beijing next, which is full lockdown. stay in your home. don't leave. fly drones over your house and say, not very subtly, what they've been saying sort of implicitly forever in china, suppress your urge for freedom. >> control your soul's desire for freedom. it's something. again, ed luce, we have seen just the difference between russian troops and ukrainian fighters. russian troops coming into ukraine, looting kitchens, looting homes in ukraine. wondering why in the world they are so far behind this nation that wasn't even supposed to be a nation, according to vladimir putin. they're getting routed on the battlefield and now, of course, vladimir putin, he's failing in every respect, economically, militarily, strategically. so what does he do? he dials up old cold war rhetoric, trying to scare us back into an old cold war.

>> yeah. somebody made the joke that russia declared ukraine to be part of russia and then made the mistake of invading russia in winter. clearly, the morale of russia's troops is something we couldn't know how low it would be. what susan was talk about earlier, we have these expeck expectations of a lightning strike, capturing kyiv. intelligence agencies were missing a key bit of information there. ukrainians are motivated. i think this has something to do with freedom. the russians weren't. in fact, the russians didn't even know where they were going. the conscripts thought they were going on training exercises. they'd been told time and again that ukrainians are brothers. i want to get back to something admiral stavridis said earlier.

it's precisely because the russians are being outgunned, outclassed, defeated, essentially, and that nato is stepping up its supplies every day. even the germans now are going to send in tanks. they've finally been, i guess, shamed into sending heavy weaponry. it's precisely because of that that we should fear these increasingly unsubtle hints by putin, by lavrov, by patrushev, his national security hawk, about this going nuclear. this is the one area, tactical nuclear weapons, where russia outnumbers us. therefore, i don't think that -- you know, we can't just dismiss this as bluff, bluffing by putin or bluster. i think that these scenarios are being taken very, very seriously in the white house. as potentially very real. >> let's talk about how russia is doing militarily.

american military analysts say those forces are continuing to make advances in eastern europe, but strong resistance from ukrainian troops slowing their progress. according to the "times," russia relied on tanks when it first invaded ukraine in late february, but that strategy failed. the "times" reports military analysts from the institute of the study of war, a washington thinktank, say in their recent assessment on tuesday, quote, russian forces adopted a sounder pattern of operational movement in eastern ukraine, which is allowing them to bring more combat power to bear in their narrower goal of capturing the region. meanwhile, ukraine is asking the biden administration to provide its troops with armed drones. the request comes as british defense ministry updated its intelligence report, saying russia is still relying on heavy air bombardments as it turns its efforts on taking control of the east and south of ukraine. admiral stavridis, does that assessment line up with what you're seeing and hearing from

fellow commanders, fellow former commanders who know this area very well? this was supposed to be sort of a restart of the war for put putin and russia. didn't take the capital. didn't install a puppet regime. now focusing on the donbas. how sit going in these early days? >> we're back to the traditional russian way of war, which is to grind it out. to terrorize the population. to throw mass at the problem. putin has a better opportunity here than he did trying to execute, which his forces were clearly unable to do competently, the kind of blitzkrieg you just talked about. thank god. partly, that's because of their own incompetence. partly, it is because we were even then getting weapons in the hands of the ukrainians. partly, it is simply the spirit and the will of the ukrainians to resist. now, when you're being ground down, day after day, it's a

tougher problem for our ukrainian friends. two quick, final thoughts here. by the way, that same british intelligence report, which is extremely credible, very balanced, very nuanced, now estimates 15,000 russian dead, killed in action, in the first two months of this war. as we have said before, the entire u.s. fight in the iraq and afghanistan in 20 years, we lost far fewer, maybe half that number. so that will, over time, weigh on this ability to deliver military combat at scale. finally, joe, great series of quotes. i'm going to add one other one that i think is relevant here, which is, napoleon. of course, i'm 5'5" tall, as we talk about endlessly. i love to quote napoleon because short people stick together in

this hard life. >> there you go. >> here's the quote. by the way, i love ed luce brought up the failure of napoleon in invading russia in winter, which is exactly what's happening. but here's the quote, a leader is a dealer in hope. a leader is a dealer in hope. i think that's what zelenskyy is. i think that's what president biden is. i think, together, the west and the ukrainians, because we will take that side of the bet, i think we'll succeed here. >> admiral -- >> i -- i want to just say one thing. i apologize, mika, for cutting you off. >> it's okay. >> admiral, could you really quickly, just for our viewers, because we have a well-read audience, i read andrew roberts biography of napoleon and was stunned, despite the fact i've been reading history my entire life, over, you know -- well over five decades now. i was stunned by how little i knew about napoleon.

how he would ride out and go in the middle of battles. he would personally put medals on people. he was willing to let even the lowest infantry officer yell at him in front of others and tell him what he was doing wrong. he really is -- i think we have -- for some reason, we have a blind spot about how revolutionary napoleon was. for us, what we read, what america is, he is the guy who tried to take over europe, failed, created the congress of vienna, and that seems to be how we in america view him. but despite all of his many, many failings -- you have to say that about everybody -- but despite some of his dreadful failings, especially in our hemisphere, the caribbean, talk about napoleon quickly.

tell people where to read more about this guy who created modern europe. >> the andrew roberts biography -- by the way, andrew roberts biography of churchill, another significant figure, is well worth pursuing. and comparing those two figures is a very interesting thing to do, through the prism of andrew roberts' writing. napoleon reshaped europe. he created the idea of a citizen army. he was a deeply inspirational leader. he built many of the norms that we think about into modern legal theory. oh, by the way, he sold the united states about half of our country in the louisiana purchase. maybe the best deal ever, even ahead of the purchase of alaska. so napoleon was imaginative, creative, inspirational, and loved his soldiers. he was a soldiers' general.

he made some significant mistake, both on the personal side, shall we say, as well as on the military side. notably, as our friend ed luce reminds us, invading russia with all its strategic depth. there are some lessons there on this one, as well. but, yeah, there's a lot to admire about napoleon. >> good books to read. admiral, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. now to the story joe and willie kind of backed into, which is what we do here on "morning joe." we talk about the story before we get to the story. in an effort to contain an outbreak of cases, authorities in china ordered covid-19 testing for around 20 million people. the move has triggered panic, as residents fear a harsh lockdown. nbc news correspondent janis mackey frayer has the details. >> reporter: chinese authorities ordering mass testing in

beijing, nearly 20 million people. three rounds of mass testing this week. to contain an outbreak of what officials say is roughly 140 cases. it triggered panic buying at stores. at one point, some shelves stripped bare, despite the government saying there is enough food. the growing worry here, that a lockdown is coming. that's what's happening in shanghai. a city-wide lockdown now in its fourth week. authorities using harsh tactics to enforce it. like metal fencing around apartments to barricade residents in their own homes. disinfection teams roaming streets. mass quarantine centers full. the government has put down protests, while drones tell people, "control your soul's desire for freedom." at the shanghai campus of nyu, students are stuck in their dorms. anna catalina is one of several american students there. >> i do get a little frustrated

that it has to keep going on this long. >> reporter: two years into the pandemic, china's zero tolerance strategy now faces its biggest test. >> janis mackey frayer reporting for us. susan page, the economic impact there? >> first, there's the scene of these people, human beings, being subjected to the kind of steps that seem just unacceptable. >> totally. >> to us, even as we try to deal with covid here in this country. obviously, repercussions for us in term of our trade with china, in terms of the supply chain problems, in terms of inflation, which is increasingly a concern here in the united states. we see a big focus now by the biden administration and congress, trying to advance inflation. in part, due to these supply chain problems. china a part of that. in part due to ukraine, what's happening with energy prices. >> yeah. between pandemics and war, there is a whole discussion to be had

about interdependence and dependence on russia for energy, for oil and gas, and china for so many things, ed luce. >> indeed. i mean, we've got used, over the last 30 years, to talking about globalization as a force for peace. >> right. >> right now, we're talking about weaponized interdependence. weaponized interdependence. >> right. >> of course, with russia and the west, we're seeing that. more importantly, in terms of impact on inflation, on global supply chains, and on lowering our growth, is these lockdowns in places like shanghai. we shouldn't forget, china might have had the strictest zero covid policy of anywhere in the world, but it's got a very low vaccination rate with bad vaccines, with chinese vaccines that are not effective compared to pfizer, moderna, astrazeneca and the ones we've been taking in the west. we've all got immunity. you know, 60% of americans have had this. >> yup. >> higher percentage of

britains. we all have immunity. the chinese don't have immimmun. they haven't had covid. so they're at a very, very dangerous point, where these sorts of lockdowns are not coming at the end of a pandemic but could be the sign of normality to come for months, if not years. >> joe? >> yeah. you know, ed, isn't it something? i was just talking about the messiness of freedom. sometimes freedom is messy. sometimes we fight ourselves. sometimes people use their freedom and don't use it wisely. i think the pandemic is a perfect example of that. of course, things were terrible in the united states. we had fights over covid, but people were free to go their own direction, make their own choices. a million people have died. i don't know how much that could have been mitigated if we'd done everything perfectly from the beginning. but as you said, because we were free to move, because we were

free to make mistakes, because we were free to do things the way we thought best for ourselves and our family, about 90%, maybe 95% of americans, it is now estimated, have already gotten covid. as we've heard on this show, the united states has a high wall of immunity now. scott gottlieb says it is the high wall of immunity that now guaranteed that when most of us get covid with vaccines and that high wall of immunity, we're not going to get seriously sick and die. then you look at china. my god, the contrast is extraordinary. >> yeah. what's really worrying about this, as we were saying before, this is a sign of things to come. we're not talking about the tail end of china's pandemic. we're talking about it being in

the midst of this pandemic. and rolling out vaccines. pride is preventing them, and maybe money and availability, from getting the western vaccines that are much more effective. so we haven't yet begun to see a serious rollout of the effective vaccines in china. because of these lockdowns, there isn't natural immunity. xi jinping is obsessed with the 20th party congress in october, where he will be made president again. he will break precedent, going beyond two terms, which has been the chinese rule for a generation. this is clearly a very delicate moment. he doesn't want any covid outbreaks. he'll, therefore, keep locking cities like beijing and shanghai down, and impacting us, our inflation rate, our good supply, our growth rates. >> susan, real quick. >> pulses in two directions, right? the economic globalization,

questions about whether that's sustainable, but the pandemic and the war in ukraine emphasize how much we are interdependent, interconnected, whether we want to be or not. >> exactly. >> ed luce and susan page, thank you, both, very much for coming in this morning. great to see you. coming up, michigan state senator mallory mcmoro made national headlines for standing up to a smear campaign and standing up for marginalized communities. calls for democrats to follow her lead. also, railways have been a lifeline for many ukrainians to escape the war. in our next hour, we'll have more on the brave front line workers who continue to show up every day amid threats from russian forces. plus, we'll look at some of the other stories on the front pages of papers across the country this morning, including the first of its kind action to conserve water in california. we'll be right back. in califora

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♪ call one eight hundred, eight million ♪ who am i? i am a straight white christian married suburban mom. people who are different are not the reason that our roads are in bad shape after decades of disinvestment or health care costs are too high or teachers are leaving the profession.

i want every child in this state to feel seen, heard, and supported. not marginalized and targeted because they are not straight, white, and christian. we cannot let hateful people tell you otherwise to scapegoat and deflect from the fact that they are not doing anything to fix the real issues that impact people's lives. and i know that hate will only win if people like me stand by and let it happen. i flipped a district when i ran for the first time in 2018, so i remember what was a republican district. i'm a democrat. and it is this exact tone that the people i represent -- i represent mitt romney's hometown -- want balanced budgets and want the government to work and want us to attract and support businesses and don't want to hate people because they are different.

and there was an opportunity for the republican party to go back to debating, you know, how we spend tax dollars. instead, it is full-fringe qanon hateful, hateful rhetoric with no actual policy. so, you know, i see it every day. but part of the reason that i really wanted to identify myself is because this moment is going to require straight, white, christian suburban moms to stand up and get uncomfortable and say, this is not okay. odds are, you know, a lot of us are probably pretty comfortable and okay, but that doesn't mean that this is okay. we can't stand back and let it happen. >> michigan state senator mallory mcmarrow appeared on our show last week, the morning after her impassioned speech, pushing back on gop smears and standing up for marginalized communities. associate editor of the

"washington post," writing, "don't let mallory mcmorrow fight bigotry alone." jonathan joins us. he is also the host of the sunday show here on msnbc. also with us, staff writer at the "atlantic." his title, "just call trump a loser." we'll get to that in a moment, and we'll definitely get to that. former director of communications for obama and hillary clinton's 2016 presidential campaign, jennifer palmieri. co-host of "the circus" on showtime. joe, a lot of great topics here, but i will tell you, mallory mcmorrow, that speech has stuck with me. it makes me think about how that is contained and used by democrats fighting toward the midterms. >> right. >> but not fumbled. >> not fumbled.

like a pop-up to the outfield in fenway. >> yeah. >> by the way, just great guests this morning. you look at our -- i mean, the leibovich booking questionable, at best, but other than that, great bookings. i want to start with jonathan capehart. i'm speaking as a former republican, and i always would say, democrats are so easy to beat. they're so easy because they sit back, and they're shocked, stunned, and deeply saddened, but they never fight back. i kind of thought that in 1988, democrats would have learned from the dukakis campaign. you admit what you don't deny. that's what i loved about this speech you're writing about. i love the fact that she said, wait a second now, wait a second, they're trying to make me the other. i'm a straight, white, suburban mom, and they're trying to make me the other. i think what was so brilliant about it is, like, she pointed

out how strange, actually, the republican was. this is one thing i haven't understood about democrats, and i promise i'll shut up and let you talk about it, but if it were running as a democrat against republicans, i'd say, wait a second, we're the others? you guys bring loaded guns to airports repeatedly. you're qanon freaks. you actually followed a guy who said to put bleach into your body and shove lights underneath your skin instead of just following medicine. you believe cranks on youtube instead of your family doctors of 40 years. you believe italian dudes with lasers rigged the election. you're talking about jewish space lasers. you're calling us the others? you republicans are freaks. and we started to hear that a

little bit in michigan. i wonder why democrats don't say that more. >> well, maybe they will start, joe. what i loved about -- excuse me -- what i loved about mallory mcmorrow's speech is that it wasn't just the words. the words themselves were powerful and needed to be said. it was the fury behind what she was saying. >> yeah. >> when she practically roared, straight, white, and christian, i felt it in my soul. because i've been waiting for someone like her, someone to say that, to reclaim their values, reclaim the moral high ground. i also think it was very important for her to not run away from her christian identity. to say -- >> yeah. >> -- and push it back in their faces, you guys say you're the party of life and you are the party of moral values and you are the upright standing citizens. no, i'm a christian, and i care about black people. i care about lgbtq people. i care about my neighbors.

i care about my fellow americans. and if more mallory mcmorrows get out there, more ian mackies, from missouri, gavin newsom, who i interviewed in february and was saying this same thing. saying, democrats, we know the playbook. we know what republicans and conservatives are going to do. let's fight them on their turf, which is why he is taking that texas abortion law and using it to go after gun manufacturers. democrats, i hope this is a sign they are no longer afraid, to joe's point, to fight back and fight back hard. because they have the issues on their side. they have the moral high ground, and they should stand on it and beat the -- >> but i'm worried, jen. democrats, i get so frustrated watching them respond to republican trigger antics. like legislation in florida, talking about sexuality. you can't talk about sexuality if you have a classroom of kids

from kindergarten to third grade. are you kidding me? so you have people in florida -- and i completely -- please don't mischaracterize this, i completely feel the pain of someone who feels infringed upon because of that law and feels like their truth might not be being recognized and wants to stand up and talk about that and be brought to tears. i totally validate and respect that, but that's not the response democrats need to have in terms of fighting to win the midterms. they're getting triggered by this law and letting it bring them down publicly, instead of saying, what? are you kidding me? you're going to deny my truth? let's take what joe just said. you'll deny my truth? let's look at your truth and go right back at them with the freak show that has been the republican party for the past four years. a complete freak show. and it has literally given birth to more freaks in congress,

literally freaks who spew lies, who are cruel, who are bigoted, and who make their days worth it to themselves by going after conspiracy theories and being cruel. that's the republican party today. or living by lies. finding a way to lie again, kevin mccarthy. i mean, there's so much to work with and, yet, they get caught on things and become emotional. >> yeah. we spent a week in florida for the "circus," and i feel like -- i spent a week there. i read leibo's piece in the "atlantic" and i read jonathan's piece. i feel there is an answer here. mark writes about adjacent candidates, like ron desantis. a more polite and strategic version of trump. mallory mcmorrow is in michigan, but the fight she's taken on is the fight that desantis started in florida. >> right. >> he is -- he legislates by

gaslight. you know, there is the disney bill he did in retaliation for disney standing up to the parental rights and education bill. that's a fake thing. as a matter of fact, the legislation was a reel to not actually do what it said it was going to do. the parental rights and education with the opponents calling it don't say gay bill, it is also a fake issue. no one is teaching sexuality to third graders in floridas then there is a stop woke act, which is so memorialize what is in ron desantis' head, the things you can't teach in school, none of which is being taught in school. the way to fight back is how she did it. in florida, they're not doing that. we talked to one state rep, who she is pushing back and calling this all out. but most of them are scared to say it out loud. mcmorrow said it, and it's in your piece, when you fight back, when straight people fight back, christian people fight back, you take away their power.

>> willie, jump in. >> your first for the "atlantic" is titled "just call trump a loser." mark writes this, quote, trump's bizarre and enduring hold over his party has made it verboten for many republicans to even utter publicly the unpleasant fact of his defeat. something they'll readily acknowledge in private. i caught up recently, writes mark, with several trump-opposing republican strategists and former associates of the president who argue this should end. the best way to impose trump in 2024 will be to call him a loser as early and brutally as possible, and keep pointing out the absurdity of treating a one-term, twice-impeached, an heir apparent. some nervy republican challenger needs to remind everyone how rare it is for an incumbent president to lose re-election and remind the former president that he once called the person

he lost to the worst presidential candidate in the history of presidential politics. don't let him get away with that, the cabinet of critics urge. abandon all deference. don't forget to troll the troller. so, mark, let you expand on that piece a little bit. but in the context of what's just happened over the last week, which is that we have kevin mccarthy on tape trashing donald trump, saying he was going to pursue his resignation or the 25th amendment. then when it is revealed in the new book by alice burns and jonathan martin, turning and making apologies to president trump. going back to members of congress he may have offended on those tapes and saying, "i'm sorry. can we all be friends? i love donald trump. i want to be speaker of the house." in other words, the approach of going after donald trump seems to be not only one that's not effective, but one that most republicans are terrified of. >> yeah. i mean, i think the key word there is terrified. this is a two-step that is so

numbingly familiar to everyone. which is, you know, saying one thing in private about donald trump and saying something completely different about dear leader when there is a microphone attached to you. it is not exactly a news flash that politicians will say something a little different in private than public. what is different with this era of republicanism is the yawning gap between what is known to be true and what can be safely uttered without triggering, you know, the leader in exile at mar-a-lago. i think in some ways, we're all talking about the same thing, which is, as jennifer said, government by gaslight. i mean, they're not -- they're trying to sort of throw out these real truths. the fact that it exists in donald trump's head, that he actually won the election, has now become the talking point for the republican party that people have to try to factually justify. essentially, this is -- it is about calling out dirty little secrets. whether you are a state rep

somewhere saying, look, by the way, this is not about the bogus issues you're talking about. it is about paving roads and balaning budgets. let's be real here, it is really hard to lose a re-election campaign if you're donald trump. i don't know why you're asking for more of this. this is republicans talking to republicans. it makes them uncomfortable. it makes the president uncomfortable, makes him angry and drives him nuts, as an added benefit. i am an advocate of this, not as someone giving strategic advice but someone who likes to air truths and thinks it isparties, you're democrats or republicans, to speak in the realm of reality. >> you know, mark, it is interesting. as you've suggested, they do call him a loser. republicans do call him a loser when a camera is not on. they understand this is the first guy since herbert hoover, first one-term president since herbert hoover to lose the white house, to lose the house of

representatives, to lose the united states senate. they know democrats got to put somebody new on the supreme court because of what donald trump did in georgia. he single-handedly destroyed republicans' chances of maintaining the senate by what he did in georgia. he is doing it again with herschel walker. he's chosen the wrong person again in the georgia gubernatorial race. i guess the question is, is this a strategy, since republicans aren't going to implement it, that democrats just, i mean, need to do it? for people going, he is the kingmaker in the republican party, oh, is he really? there is nobody donald trump hated more than brian kemp. he repeatedly bashed brian kemp. completely trashed him because brian kemp wouldn't repeat the ties. one of the trumpiest people, one of the trumpiest republicans in elected office until he was asked to lie about a

presidential election by donald trump. then he refused to do it. he is getting absolutely crushed in georgia which, you know, georgia is kind of the new florida. it is georgia, georgia, georgia. it's a critical state in 2024. >> yeah. i mean, i think democrats would have to do so differently. i think republicans can sort of speak as fellow team members here. they can say, look, you know, you keep -- republicans have basically underperformed in every election since 2016, you know, compared to their earlier ones. i think trump, when he is on the ballot, he actually brings a lot of base out to vote, which was helpful to a lot of congressional candidates, especially in 2020. but the fact is, i mean, trump has been bad for republicans getting elected down ballot. >> yeah. >> yes, he has juiced turnout in some cases, but they've been pretty consistent in looking at numbers that republicans have gotten. look, every time there's a brian kemp like poll, and conceivably results going forward, that rap

sheet and that invincibility is going to continue to entrench itself next to trump. i think if democrats go after him, the loser-ness has to expand into a national conversation. which is, look, he said he was going to build a wall. he didn't. he said he'd balance the budget immediately. he didn't do it. if you don't know obamacare, you still have it. if you voted for -- i mean, you can go through the list. biden used to say it all the time. >> this is like having an abusive partner. these republicans and trump. trump is their abusive partner. the question is, when are -- sometimes there's that moment when you're like, no more. i can't take it anymore. i'm leaving. you would think january 6th would have been that moment. but it's not. so the question is, what is it going to be? because they keep going back and feeding the beast for themselves. they can't stop taking the abuse. house republicans gathered for their first conference meeting since leaked audio tapes revealed minority leader kevin mccarthy thought donald trump

should resign after january 6th. that was good. mccarthy told members he was only discussing scenarios about trump. the audio tells a different story. but here's how one republican member tried to reconcile that for him. >> did you listen to the mccarthy audio that was released? >> sure i did. >> what was your response as an american? >> my response, that it was edited. you see, i know the art of editing. >> you think he didn't say that? >> i'm not sure. i'm not sure in what context. >> my god. my god. >> wow. >> i know her. she knows so much better. >> mark, i pass this one to you, my friend. it was edited. i mean, this is, again, this is the same dear kevin who people heard screaming to trump. this is the same dear kevin that bragged about screaming to trump. this is the same dear kevin

caught on tape saying donald trump was paid off by vladimir putin. swear to god. like, these people know they're lying. >> of course they know. they all know. >> and they know that -- and they know that we know that they're lying. they know that their rank and file know they're lying. yet, they just keep lying. >> it is -- look, we can tell people this until we're blue in the face. i mean, what kevin mccarthy is saying to his members and what he is saying to, you know, people that he's eating dinner with in washington is 180 degrees different from what he is saying when he is in jim banks' district in indiana or when he is home in bakersfield or wherever he is. there is -- look, republicans will say, and people say, look, voters aren't talking about this. it's true, they might not literally be talking about what kevin mccarthy was busted for

saying in a leaked audio in an upcoming book. they might not literally be talking about that, but the idea that voters are routinely and casually lied to by a group of people. >> yeah. >> then go back and are essentially laughing about it is, i think, offensive to a lot of voters if they, you know, understand the contours of what is being done to them and the way they're being patronized. >> it is also offensive to our democracy, to denigrate the truth. >> corrosive. >> very corrosive. yesterday, all day, we talked about a freedom fighter, a fighter for democracy. someone who knows how damaing this behavior is. i don't know what points congresswoman salazar was getting in the moment, manipulating the truth. but she went on and on, you know, saying, gosh, january 6th was bad, but why are we still talking about it? this is your problem. because you want to keep making headlines. no, the question is, do we ever

want to see january 6th happen again? if there is no accountability, don't you want to see accountability for january 6th and the assault on our capital? where vice president mike pence's life was threatened. nancy pelosi's life was threatened. the place was ransacked. don't you, congresswoman salazar? the question answers itself and, yet, they flick it off because they want to make trump happy. >> it is what about-ism. this feels like it is all the same fight. it's like, it is what about-ism, which is what russia does. that is their play. the fight in ukraine. how the republicans are casually lying and everyone accepts it and expects it to happen. how that's hurting democrats when they don't stand up to fight back, both in terms of pushing backculture war, but also these fights take hold when you're not making progress. you know, that's when democrats -- when you're not

making progress on behalf of working people, that is when the culture war stuff takes place. >> back to where we began, which was the point in your piece, jonathan capehart, sum it up. democrats moving forward, dealing with these alternative realities. >> the thing mallory mcmorrow does is she hits back on the culture stuff and says, we're talking about this, but this has nothing to do with fixing the roads, fixing the schools, dealing with the issues that the voters care about. and what we really haven't talked about is, these folks are lying and know we know they're all lying because of power. at the end of the day, all they want to do is to hang on to the majority, to be in power. that explains everything that kevin mccarthy is doing. he is debasing himself. he is going to have a comeuppance that is going to be spectacularly public and painful for them. >> boy. >> if he thinks that donald trump is going to support his

effort to be speaker -- [ laughter ] >> those are his final thoughts. a denigrating chuckle. jonathan capehart, we'll read your piece in the "washington post" and watching the "sunday show" on msnbc. love having you on "morning joe." thanks for coming on. >> thank you, mika. >> always love watching "the circus" on sundays on showtime with jen palmieri. thanks for being on. mark leibovich, we'll be reading the new piece for the "atlantic." thank you, all, very much for a great conversation. still ahead on "morning joe," marine veteran trevor reed is back in the united states after being released from russia. new details about how that prisoner exchange with moscow went down. incredibly dramatic. plus, how russia's decision to shut off natural gas to two nato countries is spurring a race for new energy supplies across europe. and we'll be joined by the head of ukrainian railways, as

russia steps up bombardments on railway infrastructure. you're watching "morning joe." we'll be right back. watching "" watching "" we'll be right back. ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ crossed the desert's bare, man. ♪ ♪ i've breathed the mountain air, man. ♪ ♪ of travel i've had my share, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪ ♪ i've been to: pittsburgh, parkersburg, ♪ ♪ gravelbourg, colorado, ♪ ♪ ellensburg, cedar city, dodge city, what a pity. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere, man. ♪ ♪ i've been everywhere. ♪

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the choice is clear: get unbeatable business solutions from the most innovative company. get a great deal on this limited time price with internet and voice for just $49.99 a month for 24 months with a 2-year price guarantee. call today. united states marine veteran trevor reed is back in the united states after a prison swap. pictures with reed requester were posted from san antonio early this morning. "the new york times" reporting former new mexico governor bill richardson began the negotiations on the prisoner swap. richardson flew to moscow a day before russia invaded ukraine. trevor reed's father telling cnn the exchange was, quote, like what you see in the movies. an american plane pulled up to a

russian plane on a tarmac in turkey, and the two prisoners were escorted to the opposite aircraft. video released by russian state television yesterday shows soldiers helping reed onto a plane, but it is not clear exactly when that was recorded. the marine veteran from texas was arrested almost three years ago after russian authorities said he assaulted an officer following a night of heavy drinking. reed and his family have maintained his innocence and say that's not the way it happened. in exchange for reed's release, president biden commuted the sentence of yarashenko, seen on russian tv, already back in moscow. he was a russian pilot arrested in liberia in 2010 and convicted of conspiracy to smuggle cocaine to the united states. he had served more than half of his 20-year sentence in a prison in connecticut. joining us now, former chief of staff at the cia and department of defense, nbc national analyst jeremy bash. host of "way too early" and

bureau chief at "politico," jonathan lemire. and msnbc contributor mike barnicle with us, as well. good morning to you all. jonathan, let me start with you, about what more we know, since you and i talked about this on the air 24 hours ago as it was unfolding. obviously, something like this done under the greatest of secrecy to make sure it goes down how it should. in the context of a war, in the context of the united states and russia not doing a lot of talking right now, how did this happen? >> yeah. it started some months ago, even before russia invaded ukraine. the president brought it up. he'd spoken to reed's family. they took to camping outside of the white house at lafayette square park, across from the executive mansion. they gained an audience with the president to plead their case, as well. richardson arrived to begin the negotiations just before the war began. turkey became the third-party country that was needed to

facilitate this deal. officials say, it is inherently a good thing that washington and moscow had some level of communication to arrange this prisoner swap, but we shouldn't read into it too much. these are things being done on different tracks. this was a segregated, separate effort to arrange this swap. yes, it comes against the context of the war, of course, but we shouldn't now take this as a first step to improve relations or further communication between these countries. the war is going on in a separate matter. administration officials tell me, and we heard from biden briefly on this, they're pleased reed is back, but there are a number of other americans still in custody in russia who they also hope to return home before long. >> jeremy bash, i understand the white house being cautious. what is going on with the prisoner exchange doesn't have a whole lot to do with what is going on in ukraine.

at the same time, we've both seen countries that are -- whose relationship was so dysfunctional, they couldn't even carry out a prisoner exchange like this. do you take anything positive, see any positive sign at all from the fact that at least we had communications and were able to do a prisoner exchange here? >> only a little. of course, our embassy is still open in moscow. the russian embassy is still open here on wisconsin avenue. but, undoubtedly, these kinds of deals, these kind of negotiations are going to only get harder with time. i harken back to 2010 when the united states arrested a dozen russian deep cover illegals who were living in the united states under assumed identities. it led to the show "the americans," which many of us watched. of course, we did a major prisoner exchange at that time in vienna. it was like a cold war prisoner exchange. people walking across the tarmac. you could almost hear the zithers playing in the background. that is when the united states and russia were talking about a

range of things, including arms control. now, essentially, we're fighting a multi-front proxy war, economic war, cyber war, and information war against russia. i don't have a lot of hep for these deals occurring much more into the future. >> since the start of russia's invasion of ukraine, the role of ukrainian railways has been crucial, helping millions of civilians flee to safety. lately, train stations across the country have come under deadly fire. these railway workers continue to show up for their jobs every day and risk their lives every day to help the people of their country. joining us now, the ceo of ukrainian railways, alexander kamyshin. thank you very much for being on this morning. tell us about the state of your railways and the workers who show up to work every day to help people either get in and out or get from place to place under fire. >> >> well, ukrainian rail wiwa

continue to run on schedule. we have no other option. the humanitarian aid program depends on the railways and the economy itself. we don't have another option. just keep doing our job. >> we have msnbc's mike barnicle with us, and he has the next question. mike? >> yes, sir. what is the railway activity, if any, around mariupol? is there any hope of perhaps being able to use a portion of the railway or whatever is going on down there to help the people of mariupol escape? >> hi, mike. unfortunately, our railway connection to mariupol was lost in the first weeks of the war. it shows what happens to citizens once they lose the railway connection. we can't bring people out. we can't bring humanitarian aid in. >> mr. kamyshin, the world was horrified by one of many attacks

on civilians waiting at train stations to evacuate and get to safety. russians targeting families that were sitting there with their suitcases, trying to get out of those war-torn areas. can you speak to the extent of damage at train stations and to targeting that you may have seen of your railways, as people try to get out to safety and be evacuated? >> well, i would talk about the massacre when they killed 57 people. five kids out of them in kramatorsk. that was targeting railway stations with people, with passengers. everyone knew there was an evacuation program growing in the area, the donbas. since then, they constantly, daily, keep targeting railway infrastructure. two days ago, they shelled five

stations in one hour. yesterday and the day before yesterday, they targeted one bridge which connects the south of ukraine with the deep south. they keep shelling the railway infrastructure daily. >> so with the loss of 95 workers so far and so many injured, tell us what keeps the trains running, why the workers come back. >> well, we lost 115 and many are injured. you know, railway men are really highly disciplined and highly motivated, highly determined. i would say people in this country, to all of us, keep running the company, keep doing our job and keep moving on. we can't step back. we can't stop the trains running, you know? >> yeah. ceo of ukrainian railways, alexander kamyshin, thank you

very much for coming on the show this morning. joe? >> jeremy, we hear the story in so many ways of heroism among the ukrainian people, obviously among ukrainian fighters. i am curious what you believe. we talked about negotiations before. right now, we appear to be at a stalemate with vladimir putin who simply doesn't want to negotiate. what changes the ddynamic? how does putin ever get to the negotiating table, so long as his russian forces are getting mopped up on the battlefield. >> i think we have to inflict more pain on the russian forces. this is going to get only more complex. because if you think about the logistical challenge of getting weapons from the polish border across the entirety of ukraine, more than 1,000 miles, to the east, the donbas, this is a logistical train under fire in a wartime scenario from, like, washington all the way to st.

louis. i mean, it is a massive logistical operation for the united states and our western ally, to keep arming and rearming the ukrainian forces. but i'm kind of where secretary blinken and secretary austin are, which is russia is failing. we shouldn't waste the crisis. use this crisis to inflict a much deeper, much more severe and lasting blow on russia's ambitions in ukraine. we have to make the russians pay, make them bleed for a long time. only then, i think, will vladimir putin figure out a way to wriggle out. >> then, of course, the thing that was said before general austin, by secretary austin is, what the united states of america should do is have a goal to make sure they can never commit these war crimes in ukraine again. they can never commit war crimes in places like syria again. they can never commit war crimes in other parts of eastern europe again. you look at what vladimir putin

and russia has done in 2008. look what they did in 2014. what they've done in 2015. you look at them interfering in our presidential elections with misinformation in 2016. it has continued. now, of course, this invasion. it seems reasonable and rational, despite the fact that useful idiots for vladimir putin and the united states are somehow saying this war was america's fault? you have to hate america, like there has to be a huge amount of hatred in your heart for america to blame vladimir putin's invasion of ukraine on the united states. and to attack general austin for simply saying, we have to protect these humans. we have to protect ukrainian children. we have to protect ukrainian grandmothers. we have to protect ukrainian mothers who are pregnant, who are in maternity wards, to make sure they can never again be the

victims of war crimes. to attack general austin for wanting to protect these people, there is a sickness here that 90% of americans just don't understand. we should protect these people, and we should protect others, whether it is in finland, sweden, in estonia, latvia, across all of southern and eastern europe, from the war crimes that vladimir putin has been perpetrating, nonstop, since 2008. jonathan lemire, i want to ask you about this new aid package. $3 billion in aid we've already sent zelenskyy's way. we've already sent ukraine's way. $800 million last week. of course, now we're talking about another massive package going the way of the ukraine i can't answer. we're getting to the point where we are -- there are historical parallels between

what we did for great britain and the lend-lease acts in the stages of the war during the battle of britain in '40 and '41. i'm curious, is there a growing impatience with zelenskyy's constant attacks on the united states not doing enough, or is there just an understanding this guy is fighting for his life, fighting for the life of his country. yes, let him vent at us. let him vent at the germans. let him vent at the west. we understand. >> yeah, administration officials that i've spoken to on this topic in the last few weeks, there's a little bit of impatience but, largely, they understand. they understand that zelenskyy is hanging on not just for, of course, the survival of his country, but the ukrainian way of life that he and his family have been in tremendous danger, especially the early hours of the war.

certainly, now, though the combat is more concentrated and looks like it'll be more focused there in the east, but there are still shellings throughout the country. for many ukrainians, life is not back to normal and won't be for a very long time. i think there is an understanding here, also, that ukraine does act as a bullwork against further russian aggression. they should be armed by the u.s., by nato allies, to inflict as much damage on russia, too, to prevent them from ever doing something like this again everywhere else, even if they were to drawdown and refocus and reinforce their forces in the years ahead. so the u.s. has committed here. they're going to try to give zelenskyy whenever he needs. they're going to step up the getting of heavy artillery and the equipment they need, the weapons they need, to set up for this set piece battle, the world war ii style battle we're anticipating in the donbas. the president, we'll hear from

him this morning. he is going to make this pitch. they'll go to congress, and they're going to ask for more money. i don't know that this will be the last time either. >> jeremy bash, general milley gave that sobering testimony to congress a couple weeks ago, where he said, this war could go on for years. we're not talking about days, weeks, months. this could go on, in some shape or form, for years. from the american side, how should the military, how should the president, how should the country be look at this? you know, every week, the president is coming out with a new aid package. $800 million two yea weeks ago. another $800 million. what does it look like from our point of view? >> a much more integrated, transatlantic, security architecture, where the united states and our allies in europe are working together on intelligence, on training, on assessing where our stocks of former soviet munitions are,

which is something we've done but not to the extent that will be required. moving weapon style technology into the hands of the ukrainians. it'll be a multi-front campaign. obviously, we have to stay united on the economic and sanctions piece, particularly, as russia trying to use the energy weapon against europe. we'll have to stay united on the information warfare piece and keep our message strong in combating russian propaganda. we have to be united and integrate on the cyber piece, where russia is going to try to invoke and utilize an asymmetric campaign against the united states and our critical infrastructure. it'll be a multi-front, multi-faceted, multi-year campaign that the united states is going to have to lead. >> jeremy bash, thank you very much for coming on the show this morning. still to come this hour of "morning joe," new york mets batters have been hit by pitches 19 times through their first 20 games this season. is there something wrong with the baseballs? we're going to talk about that

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beautiful live picture at 7:40 in the morning in new york city. tempers flared yesterday between the mets and the cardinals. on the field in st. louis, actually. the top of the eighth inning, jd davis became the sixth mets player to be hit by a pitch. leading the bottom of the frame for the cardinals, arenado took exception to a fastball up and in. few words exchanged and then he charges the mound. the teams spilling onto the field. arenado ejected from the game after not really a brawl, more like a scrum. mets batters have been hit by pitches 19 times through the first 20 games of the season,

including three times against the cardinals on tuesday night. after that outing, mets starter chris basset had a theory about why. quote, the mlb has a very big problem with the baseballs. they're bad. everyone knows it. every pitcher in the league knows it. mlb doesn't give a damn about it. we've told them our problems with them, and they don't care. this all comes as pitchers appear to be struggling to get a grip on the ball after last year's crackdown on the sticky stuff, like spider tack. mets ace max scherzer said he felt like he was throwing a cue ball in his start on a cold night earlier this month. mike barnicle, is there something to this? you hear it from enough pitchers, and they say we're throwing something in our hand that doesn't feel like anything we have held before. it is too slippery. how much is it the bad, and how much of it is they can't use the things that gave them the grip in the past? >> it is a combination of both. the ball is new this year. it is wound a bit tighter than

the previous baseballs they've been using in seasons past. the baseballs this year go to a humadore in every park in the league, both leagues, and that changes the nature of the baseball itself. it is very slippery. and the big thing is the lack of a sticky substance that pitchers got used to using over the past at least decade, longer, of course. at least in the last decade. so that makes for a ball that's slippery, hard to handle, and you don't know whether you can control it. the danger is that, now, given the way pitchers are in shape and everything like that, a lot of them, especially the relievers, are throwing 97, 98 miles an hour. that doesn't give the batter not even that split second to get out of the way of a baseball. arenado was foolish to get angry at that ball coming close. nobody was throwing at him at that stage of the game. but the baseballs are different. they are somewhat dangerous. >> i mean, you look at trevor's story a couple nights ago. we were talking about it

watching that game. how frightening. he took it right in the head. >> yeah. >> pitcher was disturbed by it. pitcher didn't want to do that. we have a couple quick questions. one a side note because you follow baseball so closely. when we were growing up, whether you were playing baseball or whether you were playing wiffle ball, you wanted to scuff the ball up. you had a better grip on the ball. you could make it curve better. you could manipulate the ball better. now, if somebody looks at a ball, if somebody breathes on a ball, they throw it out and get another ball. i want to ask you, i mean -- first of all, if it feels like a cue ball, don't treat it like a golden cue ball. let it get scuffed up. let it hit the ground. get a grip on it that way. that's the first question. when did that happen, when they go through a thousand baseballs a game? the second thing is, why can't they moderate? why can't they get an

mlb-approved substance that they can put on their fingers, get a little grip on the ball to protect these batters? >> well, the answer to your last question first, they are working on such a substance. it is a combination of the rosin bag there on the mound and some sort of adhesive material. they're working oncoming up with something. over the past 10, 12 years, and jonathan lemire would vouch for this, as well, because he is a baseball nut, as well, the number of pitchers with extraordinary amounts of substance on their hands got to be ridiculous. the other point you just raised is among the most ridiculous, joe. pitch comes in, catcher catches, looks at it, throws it out. gets a new ball from the umpire. they go through thousands of baseballs, and it never was this prevalent as it is now. >> mike, as you were discussing pitchers abusing the use of sticky substances, i admire your restraint not to use the words

gerrit cole. i will now, he uses it all the time. there is another problem with the baseball, and this is a story line in the early weeks of the season, too. the baseball also isn't going as far. it is a deader ball. players believe. that's why offense is so down this year. it is almost a dead ball era of scoring, which has already been on the decline in recent years, in part because of how hard all the pitchers throw and batters selling out for power and not caring about striking out. it is also not caring, as well, in the early weeks of the season. a number of hitters have complained about this, as well, saying they've hit balls dead center, feel they've barreled it, only to see it die on the warning track. not might be early season weather but -- >> by the way, by the way, this is why, jackie bradley jr. has a .167 average. this is why kiké is below .200. i'm now figuring it out, jonathan lemire. this is rigged. this whole mlb season is rigged.

the yankees, they have the good baseballs, and we have the bad baseballs, right? >> yeah, it seems unfair. if need be, we'll storm the major league baseball office to register our complaint to de-certify this season. no, yeah, the red sox probably have more issues than just a dead baseball, as -- because they're not hitting or pitching or, frankly, fielding all that well. >> yeah. >> i was glad to hear jonathan bring up gerrit cole. it is fun to watch the country fall in love with the knock-around yankees, who play for the love of the game. they have jobs at the hardware store in the offseason. america has fallen in love with this team, and they have the best record in the american league. let's not lose, in all this talk about the mets, best record in baseball, the new york mets. we're 20 games in, not even. >> yeah. >> the mets looking good early on. >> all right. >> looking really good early on. i will tell you this, willie, again, you guys in the bronx, i hate to talk about it so early, yeah, you guys are in first place right now.

you spend a ton of money. we in boston, little old baseball team in boston, we're like the little engine that could. i've said it before and i will again. right now, we're going up that mountain. it's a little hard, but we're going, i think i can. i think i can. >> that's it. >> we just play ball. we just throw the ball around. yeah, maybe jackie bradley jr. is not going to break .200 this year. he didn't even when we were stealing signals. that doesn't matter. we still love the game. my question remains, though, how do you not hit over .200 when you're stealing signals, willie? that seems awfully hard. [ laughter ] >> what would the average be without the stolen signals? >> exactly. >> bang a trash can in the dugout. that helps. >> maybe we should do that, mika. maybe we should do that. >> maybe. coming up, preventing world war iii. our next guest is drawing parallels between -- >> that is certainly a nice

segue there. s from the houston astros banging trash cans to preventing world war iii. go to the people who slowly moved us from baseball to nuclear holocaust. >> it is our job, okay? try to get back to the job. >> there we go. oh, to the job. talking about world war iii, is that a job? >> it was a nice interlude. >> we are hoping to prevent world war iii with conversations. maybe hear from some people who might have some ideas. our next guests drawing parallels between two american presidents with that same goal in mind. how jfk stared down soviet aggression under khrushchev during the cuban missile crisis, and how it impairs with president biden's handling of russia's vladimir putin today. "morning joe" is back in a moment. joe" is back in a joe" is back in a moment

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. hey, welcome back to "morning joe." last hour we reported on russian president vladimir putin's latest warning of quote lightning fast retaliation should the west interfere in ukraine. and with putin repeatedly threatening to use nuclear weapons in the ukraine war, historians and military analysts see similarities to the cuban missile crisis. in fact, we had david ignatius actually saying what we're going through now may be more dangerous than 1962 in the cuban missile crisis. let's bring in historian mark updegrow, author of "incomparable grace, jfk," thank you so much for being with us. we always want to look at

leaders who have failed, who have learned from their mistaking and come out on the other side better for it. you can look at churchill, and just the disaster of churchill's career, many disaster of churchill's career. one of the great quotes, when he's right, he's right, but when he's wrong, my god. jfk, your book does a great job not just painting a glorious picture of camelot, but you talked about his mistakes, i mean, he had a disastrous reaction to the bay of pigs invasion. he had a disastrous vienna summit in 1961 with khrushchev, just absolutely disastrous. he was ill prepared, he left there, and he knew it, too. he just left there looking like a fool, being played by khrushchev, and yet a year later, he learned from his mistakes. had an 85% approval rating even

at the low points of his presidency, as you pointed out, and he was prepared for the cuban missile crisis because of those foibles. explain. >> when john f. kennedy takes the presidency, he does so in grand fashion with that wonderful inaugural oratory that we all know know, ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for your country. even though he had only won the presidency by 2/10 of a point, americans rallied around him. he has some early stumbles in his presidency, including the bay of pigs quagmire and that disaster summit with nikita khrushchev shortly thereafter. as he calls back to the white house after his inauguration, he sleeps in the lincoln bedroom, and goes to sleep in the lincoln bed and a reporter asks him the next day what it was like to sleep in the lincoln bed, and he said i just jumped in and hung

on. that's essentially what he did in his presidency, he jumped in and hung on. he was not prepared for the presidency. no man really is prepared for the presidency. it's a daunting task but he learned from his mistakes to your point. one of the things he did very astutely is keep his military at bay. they wanted to react, he wanted cooler heads to prevail and desperately looked for peaceful resolutions whenever potential conflict arose. >> so mark, to that point that joe just raised and you just addressed, the vienna summit in june of 1961 was six weeks after the bay of pigs disaster. june of 1961 and late september and october of 1962 when the missile crisis puts everyone in america and in the world on edge, what did he learn about himself and the presidency, do you think, that enabled him to so artfully negotiate our way

through the cuban missile crisis? >> i think one of it is just that the military was very gung ho for the incursion of cuba in the bay of pigs fiasco, and kennedy learns that you can't listen just to these guys. during the cuban missile crisis, he keeps his advisers extraordinarily close. he trusts them, knows they won't leak anything, and he looks for different ways out. one of the things that the military wants to do is strike the missiles that have air strikes, take out the equipment that is already being shipped to cuba. and kennedy doesn't want to do that. he has a naval blockade, also provocative, but not as much as an air strike. they hold the soviet ships at bay to prevent them from

carrying in additional troops and arms to cuba and show the soviet union that we mean business, and during that time, as they're holding them at bay, kennedy is desperately talking to khrushchev to find a peaceful way out of this deal, and ultimately it comes through a quid pro quo. the soviet union takes missiles out of cuba, and we take missiles out of turkey, the world didn't know that until after the crisis. but that was the back channel negotiation that we had with khrushchev. a quid pro quo. we take ours out, you take yours out. >> the parallels between the kennedy administration and current day don't just end with moscow, he confronted challenges to voting rights and inflation. tell us what he did to combat those. >> with the civil rights, it's a complicated story, jonathan, kennedy knows he wants to be a great president, and he thinks he'll be a great president

through foreign policy. this is at a time when the cold war defines geopolitics, it's this, we are meshed in this struggle with the soviet union for hearts and minds about what the better system is. in some ways, john f. kennedy is trying to keep the civil rights movement at bay. we are vying for moral superiority with the soviet union, showing that we are the better system. at the same time, the civil rights movement is exposing the world to the very worst of apartheid in this country. the divisions that we create through this bigoted system, this prejudiced segregationist system. kennedy doesn't want the world to see that. he's trying to keep them at bay until he steps up to civil rights in 1963, being pushed and pushed and pushed by the movement and tells americans this is a moral issue, that changes the course of the civil rights movement. we're in a time in history in this country where we're facing a lot of the similar

challenges, plus the war in ukraine, are there any lessons for the current president out of your work on this book. >> one of the things, mika is that words matter, words matter desperately. we're seeing volodymyr zelenskyy and how he uses words, his oratory is rallying the world. i think joe biden can learn that from kennedy. kennedy, clement addley, the successor to winston churchill said of churchill's oratory said words at great moments can be deeds and kennedy really shows this, at crucial moments in his presidency, he tells us what things mean. not only to our nation, but to the world, he does it through his ish bin ine speech. all men in this world who are free are citizens of berlin, and therefore i say proudly i am a

berliner. >> mike barnicle has the next question, mike. >> history is looking at things through the world a constant stenographer, recording moment by moment. joseph r. biden has taken a lot of flak for what is going on in ukraine, unnecessarily so from the republican side of the aisle. that would be my view. what do you think history will say about the way that he pulled together an often separated unit called nato, brought them together in strength, in unity, and consistently to this moment has done such? >> i think he'll get due credit for that. that's my view. you saw a very weakened nato during the trump administration resurge around this, and i think biden did a very effective job of rallying nato nations around the cause of ukraine. we tend to scrutinize our

presidents and get very myopic when it comes to their performance. history tends to sort these things out, and again, i think joe biden will get due credit for rallying nations around this so quickly and showing the world that this aggression by russia should not and will not stand. >> historian mark updegrove, thank you so much. the new book is "incomparable grace jfk in the presidency" we appreciate you coming on this morning. the ukraine war is the backdrop to much of what is going on in the news, including what happened here in washington yesterday. the funeral for madeleine albright, a force for good. >> madeleine understood her story was america's story. there was nothing she loved more than swearing in new citizens to this great nation of ours.

she'd light up, reminding them that she once stood where they stood. >> to madeline from my perspective, there was no higher mission, no greater honor, than to serve this great experiment of freedom known as the united states of america. >> this is what she would want me to say today, i had a good life. i was happy. i was so blessed in my family and my work and friends. but freedom and democracy and the rule of law are not permanently enshrined just because we've survived 200-plus years. now, think about the world you want for your grandchildren and

work for it. we love you madeleine. we miss you. but i pray to god we never stop hearing you. just sit on our shoulder and nag us to death. >> so the angels better be wearing their best pins and putting on their dancing shoes because if, as madeleine believed there's a special place in hell for women who don't support other women, they haven't seen anyone like her yet. >> they certainly haven't. mika, you were there yesterday, i thought it was fascinating about obviously bill clinton and joe biden giving wonderful,

wonderful addresses, talking about a woman that meant so much to them, but really, hillary clinton got a very stayed, quiet, reserved room cheering on two separate occasions, talking about the woman that she loved so much. >> she brought down the house at the national cathedral. it was an incredible speech, if i may. but she had such a connection with madeleine albright in so many ways, so many shared experiences and she truly loved her, and there was something about hillary clinton's eulogy of madeleine albright yesterday that has a lot of people talking this morning about her political career again, and madeleine albright, that would make sense because she was one of the most inspiring people you'll ever meet in your life if you had the honor of meeting her, and she

inspired people around the world. she inspired countries around the world. she inspired leaders around the world to fight for freedom, to fight for democracy, to fight for something that might have seemed so simple to us. she knew when danger was coming i think long before many others did even in this country. so chris coons is on the set with me. you have the best madeleine albright, you put together perfectly how she brow beats people constantly to do better, and you did a great job. >> thank you. it was great being with you, and hearing incredible stories about madeleine as a mom, a grandma, a neighbor, a friend, as well as an adviser, i was the beneficiary of some of that constant needling, chris, do you have a minute, i have an idea, you need to be -- and it was

fabulous, she was the best, the most amazing mentor and adviser, someone who is relentless, tireless, full of energy. one of the great things about secretary clinton's remarks yesterday was she helped people see into her humor, into the way that even though she was working incredibly hard in advancing freedom and defending democracy, she had a wicked sense of humor. she was delightful. some of the stories about her teaching the macarena to the ambassador from botswana on the security council floor, dancing the tango in buenos aires. >> she and my dad, joe, were two forces to be reckoned with. i know i have seen her point her finger at you and tell you what to do on your show, and you saying, yes, ma'am. >> yes, ma'am. i remember in georgetown in 2016, we were walking down the street getting in a car, and she came running after us pointing her finger saying fascism is rising in the united states, and you need to start talking about it more on your show.

i said, yes, ma'am. which is the proper response for madeleine albright. i think it's fascinating what you said about hillary clinton yesterday because she got in a bit of trouble, and i think hillary's 2016 campaign for being so aggressive in supporting hillary clinton. but, you know, that's something that ian brzezinski has always talked about in his remembrances, willie of madeleine albright that she was a diplomat, when she was loyal, when she went to political war, she was in there, fiercely loyal to dr. brzezinski, that loyalty was returned. fiercely loyal to hillary clinton. that loyalty returned. i have to say, that's kind of what the show is about, we tell people what we're in washington, maybe it's breaking out on the news, but there has been a lot of talk over the past month

about hillary clinton, once again running in 2024. of course she says she's not going to do it. everybody close to her behind the scenes she's not going to do it. friends that we know who were very close, say no, no, no, there's no way she's going to do it in 2024, but the talk continues, willie, and yesterday, let's just say, it intensified after her moving remembrance of madeleine albright. >> i had a long interview with secretary clinton, on sunday today, she was very explicit about her warnings of what would happen if donald trump came back on the scene. and after that interview, there was similar speculation. i hear from her people what you heard, she's not thinking about running again, she doesn't want to. she wants to be at the center of the conversation helping democrat where is she can, but not running.

i'm reminded as you talk about madeleine albright, one month before she died, february 23rd, in her op-ed, she laid out what was going to happen with russia and ukraine. she talked about the pretext that vladimir putin was laying to invade, and she went on to say if he invades ukraine, it will be a historic mistake. those were her words and we're certainly seeing that come to pass. this morning, the u.n. secretary general is visiting the outskirts of kyiv in ukraine to see firsthand the horrors that have unfolded there. that comes as russian president vladimir putin issues yet another warning to the west. nbc news correspondent erin mclaughlin has the latest from kyiv. >> reporter: as the war rages on, ukrainian soldiers armed with western weapons and a show of support for more than 40 allies. >> this is a time for courage, not for caution. >> reporter: russian president vladimir putin warning of a lightning fast response to

outside interference in ukraine saying, we have all the tools for this, the kind that no one else can boast of. we won't brag. we'll use them as needed. remarks seen as weapons like ballistic missiles and nuclear arms. the european commission is accusing russia of blackmail for cutting off gas supplies to poland and bulgaria. on the front lines as they prepare their tanks for battle, ukrainians remain determined. our equipment is worse than theirs, he says, but the strength is not in the tank. the strength is in the people. overnight in russian-controlled kherson, explosion in the center of town blowing up a tv tower. russian state media claiming they shot down two ukrainian missiles. this following wednesday's show of courage. ukrainians demonstrating against the occupation. defiance eventually disbursed by russian stun grenades and tear gas. yulia recently fled kherson with

her mother. she used to take part in her demonstrations but the situation became too dangerous so she fled. >> reporter: how did you get out of kyiv? >> i find a private driver. he gives them food, cigarettes, everything they need, like his payment for their permission to let him go. >> reporter: she says the dirt road they used to escape was narrow and riddled with mines but when they made it through and saw the first ukrainian flags, they broke down in tears. >> nbc's erin mclaughlin reporting for kyiv this morning. as you saw a democratic member of the foreign relations committee, chris coons of delaware is with us in washington. good morning. >> good morning. >> i want to ask you about what we're doing, what the united states is doing in terms of its aid, we hear a short time from now in a couple of hours, president biden will be out again which has become sort of a weekly announcement for him of a new aid package for ukraine.

you have talked about that. you have also talked about the need to restore deterrence in your words against russia. we heard secretary austin say a couple of days ago that it should be the aim of the united states to weaken the russian military so it cannot project upon other countries or further upon ukraine what it already has there. what do you mean when you say we need to restore deterrence? >> great to be on with you, and it's great to be on with a brave leader of the belarusian people as well this morning. we need to restore the confidence of the west, the deterrence capabilities of nato, and we need to punish putin for his war of aggression against ukraine. it is not enough for the ukrainians to fight the russians to a standstill. we need to provide them with the resources and the material to be able to win this conflict. i chaired a hearing yesterday with secretary blinken where we were talking about the resources that will be required to provide this, both the humanitarian and the military support.

there was strong bipartisan participation, and secretary blinken who's just returned from a trip to kyiv with secretary austin made it clear in response to questions from committee members that the administration intends to provide the resources necessary for ukraine to win as the ukrainians define it. i'm also very concerned about the status of georgia, moldova, the baltic states and our eastern flank critical nato allies in addition to the balts, and i think we need to make it easy for them to be forward leaning in this fight. i have just returned to leading a delegation to several countries in europe. i think our core allies are in a position to talk seriously about sanctions, about ending the importation of oil and gas, that will be a key strategic blow to russia, but we need to make this hurt economically, militarily, and we need to show the unity of the west, that's going to require the american people to

sustain their focus on this, president biden has done an outstanding job of leading through this. he and his cabinet, and they deserve the unified support of congress and the american people. >> so senator coons, you talk about hurting putin economically, militarily, and in other ways, "the new york times" headline today, russia threatens more retaliation of ukraine aid here, and with increasing frequency, the russians are reminding the world of the size and power of the nuclear arsenal, a warning that if president putin's conventional forces face anymore humiliating losses, he has other options. what's your response to americans who say, we don't want to start a third world war and we certainly don't want to face this specter of nuclear warfare? >> in an earlier segment, you were talking with a guest about the history of the cuban missile crisis, about how a young president kennedy faced a really

difficult, in fact, a decisive moment. this will be comparable, if putin can prevent us from aid organize supporting any country that is defending itself, like ukraine, then we're in a very different place, and then frankly, other countries, whether it's north korea or potentially in the future iran or of course china. if they can use their nuclear capabilities to bully their way into dominance, the security of the world, that we have worked so hard to built with our critical network of allies will come apart. this is a threat we should take seriously. i deeply respect that president biden does not want to risk escalation to world war iii but frankly on some level that conflict has already started and we need to be clear eyed about it. >> as you mentioned, also with us, we have the democratic opposition leader of belarus,

svetlana, and it's good to have you on the show. and good to see you yesterday at the institute of peace. i want to get a sense of where things stand in terms of belarus, how isolated is -- what is the status of president lukashenko, how isolated is he at this point? >> lukashenko lost election in 2020, and he's a legitimate person in our country with a legitimate government, people didn't choose them. since then because of huge repressions, people are fighting with this regime. they are resisting, and now regime involved belarus in this war against ukraine. >> right. >> and lukashenko became accomplice, collaborator in the war, but it was against, people don't want the fight. they don't want to participate, and 86% of people don't want our army to participate in this war. and i can claim two victories of

russian people in this war. so first of all, that army didn't invade ukraine, and the second one that russian troops didn't find a safe place in belarus because of our fight. >> right, right, so how close are lukashenko and putin? >> i would say that they have situational friendship. when they need each other, they use each other, so in 2020 putin supported lukashenko and it gave him opportunity to survive, and now lukashenko is in debt to putin, providing territory for launching missiles to ukraine, and i doubt that lukashenko controls military troops in our territory. the only thing he controls is repressions against people. so now lukashenko is very fragile because on the one hand putin puts pressure on him.

on the other hand -- >> give our viewers a sense of your back story, which is fascinating, you never expected to be the opposition leader in belarus. you're a mom, and your husband, both of you are fighters for freedom, he ends up in jail, and you end up running for president. >> yeah, when my husband decided to participate in campaign, he was put in jail because he was threat for lukashenko because of people's support, and i went instead of him. i wanted to support my husband, and then, like i became national leader, people voted for me in 2020, and -- but i'm sill -- i'm representing belarus, new belarus, free belarus, and at the same time, i'm mother, watching every day how my children asking when our father will come back. they're writing letters to prison, and it's awful to see, but it gives me power to move

further, despite of all threats, despite of all repressions, i can't give up. >> the world is uniting against ukraine. nato is sort of gaining steam. new members coming in. the eu in support of ukraine, aid packages on the way, i'm just wondering if there is a possibility in your mind in which the people of ukraine are able to push back and push out the russians and the people of belarus would be able to push out lukashenko at the same time really transforming the eurasian landscape s that a possibility? >> i really believe in this. i see power of ukrainian people. i see power of belarusian people, and i understand that the outcome of the war, the fate of the belarus depends, without free ukraine, there will be no free belarus, and that's why it's also our responsibility to support ukrainians in this war.

and that's why our partisans disrupt the trail ways to start providing russian equipment to russian army in ukraine. recognize instead ukraine, and they joined ukrainian army to defend the country, has defended ours. >> describe how lithuania and poland have been supporting the operation in belarus, and what more could the biden administration do? >> well, lithuania and ukraine became second homes for thousands of belarusians who had to flee belarusian because of repression. and make life for refugees comfortable in the countries, and people, belarusian people from ukraine had to flea the war so they became double refugees.

we have a very difficult situation, the same as ukrainian people, and we, on the one hand, we need to create multiple points of pressure on the regime through sanctions, on the other hand to support civil society because changes will come sooner or later, and until that time we need healthy strong civil society to make this transition process smooth! go ahead, jonathan, real quick. >> at the beginning of the war, there was talk that troops from belarus could join the ukrainian invasion, it has not appeared to have happened, but give us an update to the state of the belarusian military, and also, the belarusian people, how do you feel about russian troops using their home as a staging area? >> people feel awful, you know, ukrainians are our brothers and sisters, and we don't understand why lukashenko is selling our

lens to invade ukraine. we are sure that lukashenko made order for our soldiers to invade ukraine but our soldiers, our army was so demoralized, they didn't understand why they have to fight with ukrainians for what, for ambitions of, and that's why they didn't enter ukraine. >> mike barnicle has a question for senator coons, mike. >> senator, what's your sense, your instinct about vladimir putin perhaps trying to entice the united states or ensnare the united states into a larger war in ukraine? >> well, i think it's important that it be clear that this is the ukrainians fighting for their freedom, their territory, their sovereignty, and they are supported by a united west. that's why that meeting, air force base in germany where 40 nations gathered to pledge their

support was critical. i agree with you, mike, that that is a genuine risk, that putin wants to make this into a russia versus u.s. or russia versus nato war, and we need to keep working and fighting to make it clear that this is the sovereign nation of ukraine defending itself from an unjustified attack. the courage that svetlana is showing, other leaders throughout the region is showing, is in part inspired by our example. we need to learn from them. what it looks like to be united in the face of a severe threat to democracy and freedom. >> despite the bloodshed and brutality that we are witnessing, just wondering, given through the coalescing around the world, and the light being shed on vladimir putin, and in turn lukashenko, are you more hopeful now? >> i'm more hopeful now because i see how the world has united

against tyranny, and we understand that ukraine and belarus are on the front line of the fight between democracy and dictatorship and i'm sure that democracy, this united intention will prevail. that's why i say it's not the fight between russia and ukraine. it's fight between the world and dictatorships. >> svetlana, thank you so much for being on the show with us, and senator coons, thank you as well. we appreciate it. still ahead on "morning joe," we continue our coverage on the war in ukraine. and the threats from vladimir putin with expert analysis from former nato supreme allied commander, retired four star navy admiral james stavridis. and nato could gain two more members very soon. we have that development healed in our 4th hour of "morning joe." plus, china is fighting covid on two fronts, the virus

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let's talk about how russia is doing militarily. american military analysts say the forces are continue to go make advances in eastern europe but strong resistance from ukrainian troops is slowing their progress. russia relied on swift advances of tanks deep into ukraine when it first invaded ukraine in late february, but that strategy failed. the times reports military analyst with the institute for the study of war, washington think tank, in the most recent session, russian forces have adopted a sounder pattern of operational movement in eastern ukraine which is allowing it to bring more combat power to bear in their narrower goal of capturing the region. meanwhile, ukraine is asking the biden administration to provide

its troops with armed drones. the request comes as british defense ministry updated its intelligence report saying russia is still relying on heavy air bombardments, as it turns its efforts on taking control of the east and south of ukraine. does that assessment line up with what you're seeing and hearing from fellow commanders, fellow former commanders who know this area very well. this was supposed to be sort of a restart of the war for vladimir putin in russia, failure at first, didn't get to kyiv, didn't take the capital, didn't install a puppet regime, now just focusing on the donbas, how is it going in these early days? >> we're back to the traditional russian way of war, which is to grind it out, to terrorize the population, to throw mass at the problem. and putin has a better opportunity here than he did trying to execute which his forces were clearly unable to do

confidently, the kind of blitzkrieg you just talked about, thank god, partly that's because of their own incompetence, partly it's because we were even then getting weapons in the hands of the ukrainians, partly it's simply the spirit and the will of the ukrainians to resist. now, when you're being ground down, day after day, it's a tougher problem for our ukrainian friends. two quick final thoughts here, by the way, the same british intelligence report, which is extremely credible, very balanced, very nuanced, now estimates 15,000 russian dead, killed in action, in the first two months of this war, as we've said before, and the entire u.s. fight in the iraq and afghanistan in 20 years we lost far fewer, maybe half that number, so that will overtime weigh on this ability to deliver

military combat at scale, and then finally, joe, great series of quotes, i'm going to add one other one that i think is relevant here, which is napoleon, of course i'm 5'5", as we talk about endlessly, and so i love to quote napoleon because short people have to stick together in this hard life. here's the quote, napoleon, and by the way, i love it that ed lewis brought up the failure of napoleon in invading russia in winter, which is exactly what's happening, but here's the quote, a leader is a dealer in hope. a leader is a dealer in hope, and i think that's what zelenskyy is. i think that's what president biden is, and i think together the west and the ukrainians, because we will take that side of the bet, i think we'll succeed here. >> i guess i want to just say one thing, i apologize mika for cutting you off.

admiral, could you quickly for our viewers, because we have a very well read audience, i read andrew roberts' biography of napoleon and was stunned despite the fact i have been reading history my entire life over, you know, well over five decades now, i was stunned by how little i knew about napoleon, how he would write out, how he would go in the middle of battles, he would personally put medals on people. he was willing to let even the lowest infantry officer yell at him in front of others, and tell him what he was doing wrong. he really is, i think we have, for some reason, we have a blind spot about how revolutionary napoleon was. for us, what we read in america is he's the guy that tried to take over europe, failed, created, you know, the congress

of vienna, and that seems to be how we in america view him, but despite all of his many many failings, you have to say that about everybody, but despite some of his dreadful failings, especially in our hemisphere, talk about napoleon, really quickly, and tell people where they should go to read more about this guy who really created modern europe. >> the andrew roberts' biography, by the way, of churchill, another significant figure is well worth pursuing, and comparing those two figures is a very interesting thing to do through the prism of andrew roberts writing. napoleon reshaped europe, he created the idea of a citizen army. he was a deeply inspirational leader. he built many of the norms that we think about into modern legal theory, and oh, by the way, he

sold the united states about half of our country, in the louisiana purchase, maybe the best deal ever, even ahead of seward's purchase of alaska. he was imaginative, creative, inspirational, he was a soldier's general. he made significant mistakes both on the personal side, shall we say, as well as on the military side, notably, as our friend ed lewis reminds us invading russia with all of its strategic depth, there are some lessons there on this one as well. there's a lot to admire about napoleon bonaparte. >> and some good books to read. and admiral, thank you very much for being on the show this morning. coming up, what china's covid lockdowns mean for that country and the world. the government there is testing millions of people for the virus, but it's also being tested itself. we'll talk about beijing's effort to stamp out protests

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in an effort to contain an outbreak of cases, authorities in china have ordered covid-19 testing for around 20 million people. the move has triggered panic as residents fear a harsh lock down. nbc news correspondent janice mackey frayer has the detail -- janis mackey frayer has the details. three rounds of mass testing this week. >> reporter: to contain an outbreak of what officials say is roughly 140 cases. it triggered panic buying at stores. at one point, shelves stripped

bear, despite the government saying there's enough food. the growing worry here that a lock down is coming. that's what's happening in shanghai, a city wide lock down of 25 million people now in its fourth week. authorities using harsh tactics to enforce it, like metal fencing around apartments to barricade residents in their own homes, disinfection teams roaming streets, mass quarantine centers full. the government has put down protests while drones tell people control your soul's desire for freedom. at the shanghai campus of nyu, students are stuck in their dorms. anna catalina is one of several american students there. >> i do get a little frustrated that it has to keep going on this long. two years into the pandemic, china's zero covid strategy now faces its biggest test. >> janis mackey frayer, susan

page, the economic around the world, what's going on there. >> there's a scene of people, human beings being subjected to the kind of steps that seem just unacceptable to us, even as we try to deal with covid here. in this country, obviously repercussions in terms of our trade with china, the supply chain problems, in terms of inflation, which is increasingly a concern in the united states, we see a big focus now by the biden administration and congress in trying to address inflation, in part, due to the supply chain problems, china a part of that, in part due to ukraine and energy prices. >> between pandemics and war, there is a whole discussion to be had about interdependence and dependence on russia for energy, for oil and gas, and china for so many things. >> yeah, indeed, i mean, we've got used to over the last years to talking about globalization as a force for peace. >> right.

right now, we're talking about weaponized interdependence, and of course with russia and the west, we're seeing that most clearly, but more importantly in terms of impact on inflation, on global supply chains, and on lowering our growth, these lockdowns in places like shanghai, we shouldn't forget, china might have the strictest zero covid policy in the world, but it has a bad vaccination rate, with bad vaccines, chinese vaccines that are not effective compared to pfizer and moderna, astrazeneca and the ones we have been taking in the west. we have immunity, 60% of americans have had this. higher percentage of britains. we've got immunity. they don't have immunity. they haven't had covid, so they're at a very dangerous point where these sorts of lock downs are not coming at the end of the pandemic but could be the sign of normality to come for months if not years.

>> joe. >> yeah, and you know, isn't it something, i was just talking about the messiness of freedom, that sometimes freedom is messy, sometimes we fight ourselves, sometimes people use their freedom and don't use it wisely. i think the pandemic is a perfect example of that. of course things were terrible in the united states we had fights over covid. but people were free to go their own direction, make their own choices, and millions of people have died, i don't know how much that could have been mitigated if we had done everything perfectly from the beginning, as you said, because we were free to move, because we were free to make mistakes, because we were free to do things the way we thought best for ourselves and our family, about 90, maybe 95% of americans it's now estimated have already gotten covid, and

as we've heard on this show, the united states has a high wall of immunity now. scott gottlieb says it's that high wall of immunity that is now guaranteed that when most of us get covid, with vaccines and that high wall of immunity, we're not going to get seriously sick, and die. it's -- and then you look at china, my god, the contrast is extraordinary. >> yeah, and what's really worrying about this, as i was saying just before, is that this is a sign of things to come. we're not talking about the tail end of china's pandemic. we're talking about it being in the midst of this pandemic. and rolling out vaccines, pride is preventing them, and maybe money, and maybe availability from getting the western vaccines that are much more effective, so we haven't yet begun to see a serious rollout

of the effect of vaccines in china, and because of these lock downs there isn't natural immunity. xi jinping is obsessed with the 20th party congress in october where he will be made president again, and he will break precedent going beyond two terms, which has been the chinese rule for a generation, and this is clearly a very delicate moment. he doesn't want any covid outbreaks. he will therefore keep locking cities like beijing and china down, and impacting us, our inflation rates, our goods supply, our growth rates. >> susan, real quick. >> it pulls us in two directions, the economic globalization, questions about whether that's sustainable but the pandemic and the war in ukraine emphasize how much we are interdependent, interconnected whether we want to be or not. >> exactly. ed luce and susan page, thank you both very much for coming in this morning. great to see you, and coming up,

a column in the "wall street journal" asks how badly will the democrats lose the midterm elections. we're going to read from carl rogue's new piece just ahead, and a look at the morning papers, including a sweeping new report of what investigators call a decades long pattern of racism at the minneapolis police department, "morning joe" is back in a moment. police department, "morning joe" is back in a moment to workouts and new adventures you hope the more you give the less they'll miss. but even if your teen was vaccinated against meningitis in the past they may be missing vaccination for meningitis b. although uncommon, up to 1 in 5 survivors of meningitis will have long term consequences. now as you're thinking about all the vaccines your teen might need make sure you ask your doctor if your teen is missing meningitis b vaccination.

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kamushen. thank you for being on this morning. tell us about the state of your railways an the works who show up to work every day to help people get in and out or get from place to place under fire. >> well, ukrainian railways keep running on schedule. we don't have any other option. but we have to move on. the evacuation program still depends on railways for humanitarian aid program and the economy itself. we don't have another option. just keep doing our job. >> we have msnbc mike barnicle with us and he has the next question. >> yes, sir waxt is the railway activity around mariupol and is there any hope of perhaps being able to use a portion of the railway or whatever is going on down there to help the people of mariupol escape? >> hi, mike. unfortunately, railway

connection to mariupol was lost in the first weeks of war. and actually it shows what happens to citizens once they lose railway connection. we can't bring people out. we can't bring humanitarian aid in. >> the world was horrified bun of many attacks on civilians waiting at train stations to evacuate and to get out to safety. russians targeting families that were sitting there with their suitcases trying to get out of the war-torn areas. you could speak to the extent of damage at train stations and to targeting that you may have seen of your railways as people try to get out to safety, be evacuated? >> well, everyone knows about the massacre when they killed 57 people. five kids out of them. and 114 people were injured.

16 among them was explicit targeting railway station with people, with passengers. everyone knew that there was a program growing in that area, in donbas, and since then, they constantly daily keep targeting railway infrastructure. two days ago they shelled five stations in one hour. yesterday and the day before they started targeting one bridge which connects odesa, south of ukraine with another town that is deep south of ukraine. and they keep shelling the railway infrastructure daily. >> so with a lot of 95 workers so far and so many injured, tell us what keeps the trains running, why the workers come back? >> well, we already 115 and -- are injured as of today. and you know, railway men are highly disciplined and highly

motivated, highly determined, i would say, people in this country, and all of us keep doing our job and keep moving on. we can't step back. we can't stop the trains running, you know. >> yeah. ceo of ukrainian railways alexander kamushen. thank you very much. >> coming up on "morning joe.." >> ukraine today is a slaughterhouse right in the heart of europe. >> that is human rights loyal amal clooney yesterday calling out the united nations, she said the security council is ignoring russian war crimes. we'll show you more of what she said when morning joe coming right back. right back

top of the hour. 9:00 on the east coast. 6:00 a.m. out west. as we roll into the fourth hour of "morning joe." four hours, everybody. and less than two hours from now president biden will formally ask congress for a major new aid package to help ukraine. the dollar amount has not been revealed but nbc news has lear