this is an msnbc special series. all across america, support for white nationalism is growing. and violence against jews is skyrocketing. >> we're taking on ak-47 fire. the suspect is talking about all these jews need to die. >> i'm trying to find back.

we're not born to ate. ideology isn't even what is leading people to these movements. i know this is true because i spent eight years of my life in america's first neo-nazi skinhead organization. but i've spent the last 20 years warning the public, advising law enforcement and helping people disengage from hate groups. >> i want to help people, because i kneel like that's my only redemption. >> i have worked on deradicalizing more than 300 individuals, but i can't win this war alone. >> what i see happening is a lot of violence coming. >> white power! >> and i'm struggling. can somebody like that change? is he even redeemable? >> hate can be broken. when former extremists like me speak out against it. >> this is an education into neo-naziism. from the clothing to the music to the video games.

some kid could get this and walk into the next synagogue. tell me, please, that that is something you don't condone. >> some people that are in it are strictly in it because of the hate. other people are in it for the politics, the nationalism, the family aspect. everybody is different. you know, now, as i'm getting away from everything, it's a whole new life in a lot of ways. you know, everything i knew, all the people that i knew. >> how hard is it? >> it's very, very difficult. >> i'm sitting across from commander jeff scoop. he was the leader of the national socialist movement. the largest neo-nazi movement in

the country. on march 1st, 2019, jeff stepped down from his position, but he hasn't publically denounced white supremacy. >> you haven't just been able to tell them yet that you're ready to denounce? >> no. >> are you ready to do that now? >> well, yes. >> for over two decades, he's been an influential figure in this hateful movement. >> really the only way to stem this flow is to cut the head off the snake. jeff scoop is the head of the snake. if he can find a way to disengage, it will have a massive impact on other people in the movement wanting to leave as well. >> the question i'm wrestling with is can someone like this really change? >> how many people did you recruit that ended up dead, in prison, you know, ruined their lives? probably if they never met you would have had a normal, typical life. >> i know a lot of people that it's ruined their lives.

i'm still processing through a lot of that. >> don't you feel responsible for furthering the violence that that caused? >> is everything okay here? >> yes,dy shouse. >> thank you for checking on us. >> this is only my second time meeting with jeff. i'm still trying to figure out if he's for real. >> don't we have a responsibility for the idea that we put out into the world? >> there is so many things i want to say so i will probably be all over the place. >> that's all right. we're here to talk about these things. it's a confusing time. i've been through it. >> i feel in a lot of ways i wasted my life. >> white power! >> white power! >> jeff scoop reminds me a lot of myself. we're both the same age and midwesterners who embraced the white power movement when we were teenagers. but i turned my back on hate when i was 22 while jeff continued to rise through the ranks. taking control of the national

socialist movement when he was just 21. >> hold your hand forward and salute. sigheil. >> the offshoot of the american nazi party of the 1960s. the group stages provocative rallies across the country and is known for flaunting swastikas, wearing nazi uniforms, and glorifying adolf hitler. under jeff, the membership exploded, recruiting kids as young as 14. in 2011, jeff shared the nsms official agenda on 60 minutes. his commitment to hate was unambiguous. >> our ideal america would be all white. >> and everybody else has to leave, peacefully or by force. >> i watched them set a riot in 2005 in toledo, ohio.

now jeff is being sued for his role in the 2017 unite the right rally. his lawyers claim he lawfully attended a political event, but the suit accuses him of conspiracy to commit violence. >> we will not allow our nation to become brown. >> jeff has been on my radar for 20 years, so when i began to hear from sources that he wanted out of the movement, i did something i almost never do, i reached out to him. until today, it's been unclear what's motivating his desire to leave. >> what i see happening is a lot of violence coming from the movement. >> you think it's going to get worse? >> oh, absolutely. >> what would you say to these young people who you think, you know, are ramping up for more violence? >> that's what i want to do now, because i know i can use my influence.

>> so you want to do kind of what i'm doing, you want to help people disengage? >> yes. i can't contain this. things like the synagogue shootings, the mosque shootings, church shootings. i understand the psychology behind it, what is driving people to that. >> tell me for real why they shouldn't do it. >> you should not kill innocent people, period. it doesn't matter what color, what nationality, what religion, any of that sort of thing. that's not the answer. >> i know better than anyone that change doesn't happen overnight. it's a difficult, sometimes dangerous road. once jeff goes public, he'll be branded a race traitor and can face retaliation. jeff is a father of five. he wants to keep a low profile and his family safe. instead of meeting at his home,

we pick up our conversation in a parking garage. >> are you sorry for leading a group that, frankly, scared the [ bleep ] out of a lot of people? do you feel any sort of remorse? >> you have to understand. i'm still working through a lot of the process. >> i get it. >> obviously there is a lot of things i regret doing. i'm so used to being commander of the national socialist movement and giving speeches and saying those things, so this is very difficult. if i'm lying, anybody can see right through it because it is just not in my nature to lie, you know. >> did six million jews die in the holocaust? >> whoa. >> because that's a lie i spread for eight years, that they didn't die. that the holocaust didn't happen. >> i'm still -- i mean --

>> tell me the truth. if you are struggling, this is something you are going to need to work on. >> i'm having a -- wow. i still have some issues with the jewish question. >> letting go of years of lies and misinformation is sometimes the hardest part of disengaging from extremism. even today, a conference study showed one out of three americans has doubts that six million jews died in the holocaust. but i know from personal experience that these lies are learned and it's possible with time to unlearn them. >> that's probably going to be one of the hardest things. i have met jews that are good,

decent people. i'm just a little more skeptical about it, you know. and that's being straight up honest. >> and i appreciate that. >> it's going to make you sound like a person going through a transformation and is still not there. jeff says he wants to leave hate behind, and i want to believe him. but this is not going to be easy. (vo) ideas exist inside you, electrify you. they grow from our imagination, but they can't be held back. they want to be set free. to make the world more responsible, and even more incredible. ideas start the future, just like that. [music: "i swear"] jaycee tried gain flings for the first time the other day... and forgot where she was.

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anti-semitism in america is nothing new. >> where do you think this is? right in madison square garden, usa. >> even in 1939, more than 20,000 americans attended a pro-nazi rally in the heart of new york city. >> they wore hitler's uniforms, but they wrapped themselves in the american flag. >> generations of american jews have confronted vandalism and

violence. >> the anti-defamation league reporting nearly 2,000 incidents last year. >> but the past decade has seen an unprecedented decade in attacks. >> one of the first in this recent wave took place on june 10th, 2009 when an 88-year-old man named james von brunn made his way into washington, d.c. von brunn was a decorated world war ii veteran, but also a life long antisemite and white supremist. he walked into the united states holocaust war museum and opened fire. >> a gunman opened fire inside the u.s. holocaust museum in washington. >> von brunn killed the security officer, before being shot in the face and apprehended.

that's why i have come here, to meet a broken man. 43-year-old eric von brunn, james's only son, who reached out to me on twitter. this is an unusual case even for me. because eric was never part of the white power movement. and, yet, his whole life has been defined by it. >> first memory i have of my father would be the letters i received from him of this war he was fighting. and i always imagined him as a hans solo kind of figure. >> kind of a rebel fighting a war all on his own. >> exactly. we were fighting the corrupt, evil regime, war of the rebellion.

>> for most of his early childhood, eric was told his father was far away, fighting a war. until his mother told him the truth. >> i said, you know, people do bad things. your father did something that was pretty bad. and he went to jail for it. and that's where he is right now, not at war. he's in jail. >> can you tell me what your relationship was like? >> i loved him to death. he was my john wayne. he looked like john wayne. >> but pat tells me that over time that love was poisoned by hate. her husband's obsession with bigotry and anti-semitism spiralled out of control. >> he was so engrossed in it. he was eaten alive like a cancer. and then eric was born and eric was to be the prince. >> so he wanted to groom eric to

be his legacy. >> yes, yes. >> neither pat nor eric can tell me why james became infected with white supremacist ideology. he was college educated and a successful advertising executive. but he was also a heavy drinker and prone to violence. and in december of 1981 when eric was just four, his father walked into the federal reserve in washington, d.c., with a revolver and a sawed-off shotgun intent on taking hostages to expose what he believed a jewish conspiracy to control the nation's economy. he didn't see his son again until he was released from prison. eric was 12 years old. and that's when the en doik try nation ramped up. >> that the holocaust never happened. i knew what he was saying was

wrong, but i had to play that game of, please teach me more because i felt that if i accepted what he believed he would love me. i said, okay, dad, let's go to a movie. it was a jam packed theater. opening credits rolled. and every time a producer's name would pop up, he would stand up and shout, jew! jew! that guy is a jew! the whole theater just turned around and looked at me. i'm just like this. i wanted a father. but he wanted a disciple. >> eric shows me the manifesto his father left behind, a nearly 400 page document warning the world of the threat he believes was posed by black, liberals, and jews. >> the protocols of the elders of zion. >> this was my homework.

>> the protocols of the elders of zion was a fraudulent document released in 1903 by the russian czar. this was a way to demonize the jews, claiming that a secret kabal of powerful jews were conspireing to control the finances of the world and the entertainment and the media and things like that. >> through the roaring '20s and the crash that followed, the protocols were held up as proof that economic suffering was caused by a jewish conspiracy. half a million copies were even printed by henley ford, complimentary with every car sold. eric tells me he defied his father's indoctrination and endured years of emotional and physical abuse. >> this is it, huh? >> yes, sir. >> but a lifetime of resistance took its toll.

>> is this where you took drugs? >> yeah. i had a $1,600 a month habit. >> where would you find the money for that? >> stealing, selling, repeat diving, that kind of stuff. >> you said you had squatters in here? >> yeah. >> wow. you can't even see the garage. >> for yearly a decade, eric has struggled with ptsd, anxiety and addiction. the legacy of his father's effort to bend him to his will. and he tells me that as james grew older, his hate grew more extreme. he even posted his racist manifesto online for all the world to see. eric didn't know where to turn. so he moved james in with him to get a closer watch. >> i was pretty much keeping him in a cage.

one day i took him to lunch at applebys. out of nowhere, he says, it's time for you to prove yourself. i need you to go to washington, d.c., with a bomb and martyr yourself for our cause. >> your father wanted his son to be a suicide bomber? >> yeah. i was like, you've got to be [ bleep ] kidding me. after 20 plus years you want me to kill myself because you think i'll be a good martyr for your cause? no. we're done. >> even though you hated this man, you felt contempt for him and he abused you, this was somebody that you still went out of your way to protect. >> well, i was protecting others from him. but, you know, he would frequently say, son, listen, i'm going out with my boots on and there is nothing you can do to stop that. he was going to kill somebody or he was going to die trying.

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for most of his life, eric von brunn agonized over what his violent, white supremist father might do. when he became an adult, eric asked his father to move in with him. he wanted to keep a close eye on the old man. but when jims von brunn asked his only son to carry out a suicide attack in washington, d.c., eric reached his breaking point. >> when the man asked me to kill myself for something he knew i didn't believe in, that pretty much ended our father-son relationship. >> you wanted out right at that point? >> yeah. >> eric had graduated from the university of maryland and was eager to put as much distance from him and his father as possible. he decided to move to florida for a fresh start. but the night before he left, as they said their good-byes, eric

tells me his father plied him with alcohol and played on their tortured relationship. >> he said, look, you're kicking me out. you're going to florida. you're starting your new life. that's great. but just give me my dad's .22. that's all i'm asking for. >> james was referring to a family heirloom, a century old rifle passed down to him from his father. >> i was drunk, and i was tired. after 20 years, i was tired. and i said fine, just take it. and it was the worst mistake of my life. >> the gun eric handed his father was the same one james used to commit murder immediately after the museum shooting, federal agents located eric and his mother 800 miles from the scene of the crime. >> it was just surreal, you know. the secret service coming in

asking me if i had any intentions against president obama. i'm like, are you kidding? >> the investigation cleared eric and pat, while james was charged with the first degree murder of special officer steven tyrone johns who left behind a 10-year-old son. >> do you miss your daddy a lot? >> yeah. >> at the time, eric granted only one interview with diane sawyer on good morning america. >> i want to start with this little boy and the fact you said you wish it had been your father who died and not him. >> the wrong man died that day, yes. >> seven months after he was apprehended, james von brunn died while awaiting trial. his son never recovered.

>> you're in a lot of pain. i can tell. i know you have a special place in your heart for the person who lost his life and for the family of that person. if you had an opportunity to say something to them, what would you say? >> please kill me. >> eric. >> i'm serious. please just [ bleep ] kill me. take your revenge because i deserve it. >> you know what happened is not your fault. that trigger was pulled by your father. you fought every day of your life to not be like him. >> i'm not like him, but i gave up and some kid lost his dad because of it. >> you denied that person that you are supposed to trust because you knew he was wrong.

if that's not being courageous, if that's not being a good person, i don't know what else to tell you. extremism leaves all different kinds of casualties. eric's story is really interesting because he's still battling the scars of what his father did to him. but also what his father did to special officer johns. he holds that inside as if it was his responsibility. he's got a lot of damage that he needs to repair. >> eric sees his life story the way i used to see mine, as a source of sadness and shame. i have an idea how i can help him. but for a prominent neo-nazi like jeff scoop, the path forward is far less certain.

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you feel in a lot of ways trapped because that's everything you know to come out and be like, i don't believe in this anymore, that's a good feeling. but it's also very stressful. >> i think it would be really easy for you to just dive back

into the movement. >> oh, it would be incredibly easy to. a lot of people that contacted me asking when i'm coming back, and i keep saying i'm not coming back. >> this is jeff scoop. until recently, commander of the largest neo-nazi organization in the united states. now he says he wants out. and i want to make sure it's for the right reasons. >> i have been following you for a while. i think most of the world saw you mainstreaming the movement by removing the swastika off your flag and logo and things like that. >> yeah. we got rid of the swastika. >> it is a much less recognizable symbol than the swastika. though, it was adopted by some nazi units during world war ii. >> what would you say to people

who say jeff scoop is doing this just to hide more? >> there is certain things in the movement that don't mesh with my thinking. i was trying to tone down the message, mainstream the organization, and it can't be done. >> i want to help jeff start over and find his way out of the white power movement. but to do that, i have to better understand why he got in. like how does jeff scoop at whatever age, 12, 13, 14 decide i'm going to read "mein kumph" and i'm going to be a nazi. it's just not what kids are thinking about. >> jeff tells me he grew up in rural minnesota in a small, white part of the state. from an early age he was captivated by military history. >> i remember going to the elementary school library and checking out every book in the

section of world war ii. >> lots of boys are attracted to these things. but most of them don't have a direct ancestor who fought for hitler. >> i did have family that served on the german side. my grandfather, great uncles fought in the third reich. my parents were definitely not in support of it. and my grandfather told me, you stay involved in this, he says, it's going to -- it will probably lead you to prison. >> but it was too late. jeff was hooked on his new identity and the power that came with it. under jeff the national socialist movement was head quartered in detroit. jeff moved the organization here in 2007 for a reason. detroit was once a boom town for the auto industry. but for decades it's been a symbol of economic collapse. historically when there is financial hardships in a

country, people are looking for answers. for a political organization like the national socialist movement, it is prime, fertile recruiting grounds. >> it was easy to blame the job losses on immigrants, minorities and jews. but he tells me his plan backfired. instead of radicalizing new recruits, this multiethnic city began deradicalizing him. >> i was hearing stories from other people. i never considered those before. i never thought about them. i was fighting for my tribe. when i started listening to some of the other people, it's not just a white issue. it is an issue of all americans are having this. you have this elite class getting richer and richer and richer. the middle class and the poor -- the poor have gotten just poorer, and that's, you know, where things have changed. >> but even after 27 years in the white power movement, jeff's

poison mindset isn't his only hurdle. his entire livelihood comes from peddling neo-nazi merchandise on a website he runs. >> this here is an education into neo-naziism. everything from the clothing to the music to the pamphlet to the down loads to the video games and patches. let's kill the [ bleep ]. >> this is probably the most extreme cd we have released. >> i'm horrified by what jeff is showing me and trying to remember that this is his only source of income. >> if i walk into a place to try to get a job, what am i going to put on my resume? commander of the national socialist movement. you can google my name, and that's all that comes up. >> i can recognize how hard it is. but boohoo.

you made the bed. how does it make you feel knowing that some kid could get this and walk into the next synagogue? how do you justify that? >> i don't know that there is an answer for that. i am for freedom of speech. >> but this is not freedom of speech. freedom of speech protects us from things that we say that are critical of government. i don't think freedom of speech gives us the right to diminish and call for the murder of other people. >> if someone is that mentally unhinged, a movie or a game or a music cd drives them to do something crazy, there is something wrong in their head. >> we know this exists. it is not like a hypothetical. >> i wrote a song 30 years ago that, as a kid, i thought it's funny. i'm going to piss people off. years later, 2015, a reporter stands next to me and she said, i want you to read these lyrics. dylann roof posted them on a

storm front message page four months before he walked into the charleston church. >> on june 17th, 2015, 21-year-old dylann roof murdered nine african-americans during their weekly bible study. >> maybe my lyrics inspired him to do that. i'm responsible for that. i enabled him. tell me something, please, that is something you don't condone. >> i absolutely do not condone killing jews or any other people. >> i really want to believe jeff. but when i dig deeper into his website, i stumble on something even more disturbing. >> there are two games on here. first person shooter games where somebody is walking into, you know, a synagogue and murdering jews. for somebody who claims he's

opposed to violence, to put things like this into the world, that's pretty [ bleep ] unacceptable to me. i know if i push jeff too hard too fast i might lose him. but i can't support a hypocrite who preaches peace while he profits off of merchandise that promotes violence.

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i thought i was close to convincing jeff schoep to publically denounce the white power movement. until i discovered jeff's

divided loyalties. he's still making money selling hate online. merchandise that celebrates bigotry and even murder. despite working with extremists for 20 years, i feel lost. so i reach out to an old friend in berlin for guidance. >> hello, ari. how are you? >> 2k3w50d >> 2k3w50d 2k3w50d >> 2k3w50d >> a social psychologist who studies extremism. how they can be deradicalized is the focus of his life's work. >> i'm working with an individual whose name is jeff schoep. he is the leader of the largest neo-nazi group in the united states. i need to understand can somebody like that change, somebody at that level who has been in from the time he was 14 or 15 years old. >> i think a very dominant motivation for most of us is the quest for significance, the

quest to feel respected, feel empowered, feel that we matter. in the case of jeff, he could be a force for the good as a person that could authoritatively turn others away from extremism. if he felt that he can re-enter society, he can fulfill an important function. but at the same time, it's going to be very difficult to replace what he has had. >> one of the things that he's doing that i'm struggling with is he makes his living running a website that sells hate music and neo-nazi paraphernalia. i want him to take it down today. but i also don't want to sabotage somebody that could be a very important voice in this process to disengage. >> i think it cannot happen abruptly. he has a family to feed. he cannot become homeless overnight. he needs to have a job. he needs to be reintegrated into

society. it can take a long time, but it has to occur in a series of small steps, small goals. >> ari encourages me to have patience with jeff, but this is a fight we cannot afford to lose because he has seen the worst that hate has to offer. >> i was a little kid during the second world war in poland. people were sent to concentration camps. my family was one of the 800 families that remained in the ghetto. one night the rumor spread that those 800 families are going to be also killed. my father and my uncle found a hiding place in a room without windows, the entry to which was through a cup board and we stayed for two weeks. it was a matter of luck that i survived.

>> if ari, who has lost so much to hate, can have compassion for people like jeff schoep, then i have no excuses. >> it may take a while. it cannot be an all or nothing thing. there has to be a progression. >> extracting jeff schoep may be twice as hard as anyone i have worked with before. but if he isn't willing to divest from his merchandise, then i'm the one who is walking away. >> how did you feel after last night? >> it was a long day. >> i didn't sleep at all. every ounce of me doesn't want that music and t-shirts out there because i know the results of what can happen. i almost did not come here today because i did not want to have this conversation about you continuing to sell music. i was not okay with that. but then i had to think about taking your livelihood away from you is not going to set you up to succeed.

but you have to come over from my side. i can't cross over to where you are. it wasn't that long ago, a year ago, that you were in georgia burning swastikas in a field. >> i know. >> it's going to mean that you are going to have to prove that you are serious about this. that website has got to go. are you ready? >> i'm ready. >> is he? something in my gut tells me commander schoep is listening to my words but not really hearing me. he didn't want to continue on camera, but later changed his mind. >> you do realize the amount of money i have invested. i'm 40 something years old. every nickel i have is invested in that. that's what makes this so complicated. i don't appreciate being put on the spot like that, though. >> what do you think you're doing here? you are trying to leave. it's not going to be easy. >> i know that. but i don't have an answer for all that yet. >> i told you we'll figure it out together, and i meant that.

>> okay. >> but you know that would all be thrown out the window if somebody found out you were still selling white power cds and t-shirts. out the window. you would never never in a hundred years be able to explain that away. everybody's going to be hey, h would be able to explain that away. everybody is going to be like, hey, that guy. jeff offers more promises, but if i'm going to keep working with him, i need more than words. i need to start seeing actions. s state of the art technology, makes it brilliant. the visionary lexus nx. lease the 2021 nx 300 for $349 a month for 36 months. experience amazing at your lexus dealer. you can't plan for your period's... lease the 2021 nx 300 for $349 a month for 36 months. what the gush moments. but the right pad can.

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annihilation from the face of the earth. that was the goal. this is what the allies came across. you're in shock, you're disgusted, as you should be. and your faces are reflecting it. >> there are holocaust museums across the united states. every one of them is a monument to truth so future generations won't forget the past and will never repeat it. it's been ten years since eric's father james walked into a museum like this one and opened fire, convinced that the holocaust was a lie. he believed 6 million jews were not murdered, all to justify his hatred. >> those are not just pictures, those are real people who lost their lives. my name is christian piccolini,

and 23 years ago, i was a neo-nazi skinhead. >> for me the first step in find forgiveness was when i started to use my story warning others about today's growing extremism. i asked eric to join me today not to listen to my story but to share his own. my friend wants to tell you about his story. his is a little different than mine but very, very important. with that, please welcome my friend eric funderen. i believe listening to his own story will be a powerful step to his recovery. >> thank you for listening to me. i won't try to take up too much time. >> seager i can now reminds me of something he said when we first met. when federal agents interviewed

eric after the museum shooting, they showed him a letter they intercepted from his father, a final letter he sent to his only son. >> you've always been weak. you don't deserve my name. change it. that was it. but it's my name, not his, mine. it's my name. i want my name back and i want it to mean something positive. and i want to do something positive. i want to help people as much as i possibly can, because i feel like that's my only redemption, honestly. >> this is why i brought eric here. to tell them the truth about the struggle for his father's love. the indoctrination and abuse and the murder of special officer steven johns. >> it took me down a long, dark road and i'm only just now getting out. so, basically, the big takeaway

here is only you can define who you're going to be, okay? you weren't born hating anyone. if you do hate somebody, why do you hate them? who told you to hate them? those questions are going to help you identify who you are inside. only you guys can make the right choice. that's all i'm going to say. that's my story. [ applause ] >> i'm not a professional psychologist. the next nazi who, for the last 20 years, as tried to stop other people from making the same mistakes i've made. but when i saw eric tell his story up there, it made me really proud. >> you're very brave. >> thank you. >> i wish you the best. >> thank you very much. >> nazi germany was defeated in 1945. but today's neo-nazi movement is flooding our world with

falsehoods that fuel recruitment and violence. i want people to counter these lies with the truth. people like commander jeff scoop, and jeff is taking steps to show me he wants that, too. >> he took it down. >> the violent video games on his website are no longer for sale. that's promising. it's a good first step. >> and during this year's motor city pride festival, when armed members of the national socialist movement showed up shouting anti-gay slurs and urinating on an israeli flag, hoping to incite violence, the former commander scoop stayed

far away. >> it was pretty hard to ignore the call, but i just don't think it's in my best interest right now to be around all that. >> i'm proud of you for having the strength and the courage to do this. and all these people that you still care about in the movement, i would make it a point to go try and help them disengage from something that you know is not helping them. these people respect you. let's see how we might be able to make that happen. i had my doubts about jeff's past, but this gives me hope for his future. since our filming, jeff has shut down his entire website and is no longer selling hate

paraphernalia. >> all these people have some good, and you can reach in there and help pull this out. >> now you're speaking my language. >> i've helped hundreds of extremists. and while jeff still has a long road ahead of him. my hope is with him and other extre former extremists by my side, hundreds is just the beginning. g usa, usa! >> on january 6, 2021, the world's most powerful nation lost control of its seat of government. for more than four hours, the mob ruled. >> defend your constitution, defend your liberty. >> fanatic supporters of president trump roamed the u.s. capitol hunting for those