reir lotion >> bill taylor described the for healthier looking skin. dynamics of the quid pro quo in several different ways. this is one of them. that is going to do it for he said "during our call on us tonight. whew. this has been a busy day and a busy night. i feel like we haven't even kept september 8th, ambassador kept track of the news even just in terms of what has developed over the course of this hour, sondland tried to explain to me but we'll just redouble our that president trump is a efforts to try to do better businessman, when a businessman tomorrow. now it's time for the "last is about to sign a check do word" with lawrence o'donnell. >> that's exactly why we're someone who owes him something, doing another hour of coverage he said, the businessman asks right now because i couldn't that person to pay up before possibly cover everything you signing the check." covered in the last hour. i'm going to have some things congressman welch, as you know, not in your hour and it feels ambassador taylor then said, of like we're still just trying to course, ukraine owes donald catch up to it. >> i could have written the trump nothing. whole show by noon and then by is gordon sondland in danger of perjury charges for his 5:00 and whole different show testimony to your committee? and then just what has happened >> i think he is. you know, when he presented this hour and blown all that out himself, he was kind of a rich of the water. i can't keep up. guy who bought an >> it's it present tense with ambassadorship.

rachel maddow. that's the name of the show. he pretended it was a good day ambassador william taylor sealed for him, he got a job he wanted donald tr but he was pretty naive that he next impeached president of the didn't know the real meeting was united states. and ambassador taylor may have going on in the room next door. changed the lives of other but, of course, the evidence is members of the trump team who could be charged with now coming out that, in fact, he participating in an illegal was a very active instrument to try to essentially assist conspiracy involving aid to giuliani in the effort to have this rogue foreign policy. ukraine and at least one who so, yes, i think ambassador might be charged with perjury sondland has some reason to be after ambassador taylor's testimony today in an under oath worried about how his testimony's going to be deposition to the house of representatives which was most evaluated when reviewed by potential prosecutors. definitely not a lynching. >> and congressman, let me stay with that because that's breaking news for you as a member of the committee who's strong thurman was the racist heard this testimony to say that who held lindsey graham's senate ambassador sondland is now in seat for almost 50 years before danger of perjury charges. how would that work -- does that lindsey graham succeeded him in work the way it has in the past where the committee basically 2003. all 31 of linda graham's refers the case to what is now predecessors in that senate seat the william barr justice would be proud of him today. department? they were all racist. many of them were slave holders. and hopes for the best with some of them were supporters of them? >> well, the william barr the 156 lynchings of black justice department is obviously

people that south carolina not paying much attention to recorded in the worst of times this. and by the way, let's go back here because whatever sondland in america. did, he's a side player here. the heart of this case is what when donald trump tweeted this president trump said, according morning that the impeachment process is, quote, a lynching, to the readout, in his conversation with president no one actually took donald trump literally except lindsey zelensky. graham. and that's where the president there was a rush to object to asked for a favor. the president's appropriating and the favor was to do an the word, lynching, to describe his suffering in the impeachment investigation and dig up dirt on process, even mitch mcconnell the bidens. whose state lynched 142 black and the president explicitly people said it was an said he'd have rudy giuliani and unfortunate choice of words, but lindsey graham, lindsey graham bill barr call him, and that's offered his most perverse the heart of this. defense of donald trump yet so what mr. taylor did, or today by saying that the ambassador taylor did, he kind impeachment investigation is, of elaborated on how extensive quote, this is what lindsey graham said, "a lynching in those efforts were, but the every sense." heart of this is really very every sense means not just simple. the president in a phone call figuratively but literally, with his own voice, his own literally someone is putting a rope on donald trump's neck with words, requested a foreign power to provide assistance in a his hands tied behind his back domestic political campaign. and he's being strung up on a that's against the law.

tree. and by the way, he did that the day after director mueller testified that the new normal that's what lindsey graham said may be russian interference or foreign interference. today. >> congressman peter welch and congressman andy levin, thank lindsey graham is so far gone you both for joining us tonight, that he does not know where he starting us off. we really appreciate that. >> thanks, lawrence. is and he does not know what is have a great evening. happening in washington. >> we're joined by former what is happening is people who have devoted their lives to under secretary of state ambassador wendy sherman. service without any interest in ever getting rich like donald and jeremy bash, a former chief of staff at cia and defense trump are bringing their department. evelyn farkas is still with us. devotion to service and to duty to an impeachment process that all are msnbc analysts. ambassador sherman, i want to shines more light every day on start with you. the impeachable conduct of we just heard congressman peter donald trump. welch create some breaking news impeachable under the constitution of the united here. states. he's a member of the committee ambassador william b. taylor was born the year after donald trump who's heard the testimony of was born and they grew up in ambassador sondland, now very different worlds. ambassador taylor. donald trump, the son of a he believes gordon sondland is father who had been arrested at a ku klux klan rally and went on close to or in danger of perjury to be accused by the justice department with racist charges for his testimony. discrimination as a new york >> lawrence, i'll leave that to city landlord. the lawyer in the trio here this william taylor's father spent his life in service mostly with evening, jeremy. the army corps of engineers. donald trump and william taylor but i will say that there is followed in their father's absolutely no reason not to footsteps. donald trump, too, was accused believe everything that bill

by the justice department along taylor has said. with his father of racist i first served with bill taylor practices as a landlord. like his father before him, when i was the assistant william taylor graduated from secretary for legislative affairs in the first clinton west point and spent most of his administration after the fall of career in government service. the soviet union, i got help to first in the infantry in the vietnam war then in civilian get the first $1.2 billion for positions in the department of the newly independent states and energy. bill was in charge of what was as a member of senator bill called the freedom fund to try bradley's senate staff. to give that money to states and and then with the state it was very bipartisan. department serving in i remember quite clearly senator afghanistan, iraq, israel, and mcconnell pushing us hard for ukraine. $300 million to go to ukraine. william taylor is an expert on he was terribly, terribly ukraine. concerned about ukraine and its future and its destiny and he served as george w. bush's separating it from russia. so what your colleagues on the ambassador to ukraine. and after donald trump forced camera said before us, what the members of congress said, is out marie yovanovitch as ambassador, william taylor is quite true. serving as acting ambassador to and bill taylor has been ukraine. committed to a free and open he testified for ten hours today europe ever since, and so i under oath about what rudy think, yes, this. giuliani and donald trump have puts gordon sondland in great been doing with ukraine, yes, jeopardy because i think that william taylor delivered listening to the detailed testimony devastating to accounting that bill taylor president trump. one freshman member of the gave, it's very hard to not

committee hearing his testimony believe him and very easy to today said after the first question sondland. couple hours of william taylor's >> and jeremy bash, that's what testimony that it was, quote, my most disturbing day in congress so far. the perjury case would come down to, at least as we know it at that congressman will join us in a moment. this stage, it would be the william taylor's testimony could make the impeachment of donald credibility of william taylor versus the credibility of gordon trump bipartisan. his testimony could turn some sondland. republican votes in the house of >> yeah, i think the important representatives and it might be point here, lawrence, is that the testimony that convinces president trump's own handpicked republican senator mitt romney to vote to convict and remove special envoy, or ambassador to donald trump from office. the european union, gordon donald trump's very rich and sondland, acknowledged as we now totally incompetent and see from this witness testimony, unqualified ambassador to the that there was a demand for a quid pro quo, and specifically european union, gordon sondland, could face perjury charges after what ambassador taylor, the william taylor's testimony today. well-respected career diplomat we will consider later in this who has served democrats and hour how william taylor's testimony increases rudy republicans in every giuliani's risk of being charged administration since 1985 as in federal crimes. referenced earlier, served in along with giuliani's friends the 101st air force in vietnam, and associates who have already been charged with federal crimes started his career at west point. what he said today, when he was because of their dealings talking to the national security involving ukraine. council, the national security even though over 90% of william council was expressing concern taylor's opening statement today because gordon sondland had said to zelensky's team explicitly, here it is on the page, that was about possible impeachable offenses by donald trump and the there was no money that would be given for security assistance possible criminal conduct of rudy giuliani and gordon until the ukrainians pursued an

investigation of joe biden and sondland, the message that was burisma. clearly closest to william that's clear. taylor's heart in his opening it's on the page. statement today what was he had it's bill taylor's absolutely 100% crystal clear testimony. to tell congress about ukraine and its people, unlike donald >> and evelyn, the testimony as trump, william taylor cares about ukraine. he continues, he talks about fiona hill and mr. vinman trying he cares about the people of ukraine deeply. to reassure him that they were he set the stage for his testimony by saying ukraine is not aware of any official change right at this moment, while we in u.s. policy. sit in this room, and for the let me just read that. last five years under armed he says, despite omb's attack from russia. announcement that they were across the responsibilities i holding back the funding, he have had in public service, said, but they did confirm that ukraine is special for me. the hold on security assistance if ukraine succeeds in breaking for ukraine came from chief of free of russian influence, it is staff mick mulvaney and that the possible for europe to be whole, chief of staff maintained a free, democratic, and at peace. skeptical view of ukraine. in contrast, if russia dominates ukraine, russia will, again, so now ukraine policy is turning become an empire, oppressing its on what mick mulvaney thinks people, and threatening its after the congress has ordered neighbors and the rest of the this aid. world." ambassador taylor then laid out in painstaking detail what he >> right. i mean, lawrence, the u.s. described as an irregular informal channel of u.s. policymaking with respect to ukraine, one which included government's posit then-special envoy kurt volker, ambassador why?

because if we let ukraine become basically a vessel of russia, then essentially we will have subsequently learned, mr. allowed russia's sphere of giuliani." influence and runs counter to mr. taylor described a video everything we now believe in conference call on july 18th post-world war ii. borders. the right for peoples to when he heard a staff person at determine their own future. the office of management and democracy. budget say there was a hold on security assistance to ukraine, the young people in ukraine as he's -- as the ambassador and that that order came from the president to mick mulvaney pointed out in his testimony, they very clearly said we want a and from mick mulvaney to omb. new future, we want a democratic mick mulvaney is in even more future, we don't want need of a criminal defense corruption. lawyer tonight than he was so now these two individuals, before william taylor's testimony. mick mulvaney and the president, william taylor's testimony are trying to turn the entire differs sharply with gordon policy around, it looks like. i mean, they're throwing it into sondland's under-oath testimony question and that's really to the same committees. problematic because, again, congress has spoken. gordon sondland said under oath the executive branch has spoken in his opening statement, "i do writ large. the cabinet still thinks that this is our policy so this is a not recall any discussions with renegade policy that somehow the president has tried to convince the white house on withholding his chief of staff and others to implement. u.s. security assistance from >> we have to squeeze in a break ukraine in return for assistance here. former ambassador wendy sherman, with the president's 2020 jeremy bash, evelyn farkas. when we come back,

re-election campaign" and republican senator mitt romney william taylor's opening said on hbo this weekend exactly statement, he said, "ambassa what he would be looking for as sondland also told me that he a juror in the senate impeachment trial of donald ukrainian officials to whom he trump. and ambassador william taylor is spoke that a white house meeting with president zelensky was now the one witness who can give dependent on a public announcement of investigations. mitt romney everything that he says he is looking for in this case. in fact, sondland said that's next. that's next. everything was dependent on such nything. (bert) even an accident brought to you by the number one! an announcement, including security assistance. (count) i know i left it in here somewhere...ah ha! he said that president trump wanted president zelensky in a my monocle. ah, that's one. one lens! ah, ah, ah! public box by making a public statement about ordering such investigations." [thunder crashing] ambassador taylor did not know oo! my mower! at that time that donald trump hm, well thatone chore i can cross off my list! ah, ah, ah! in his phone call with the president of ukraine had already told him that he wanted an (burke) seen it, covered it. at farmers insurance, we know a thing or two investigation of, quote, biden. because we've seen a thing or two. (bert) mmm. and biden's son. ♪ we are farmers. bum-pa-dum, bum-bum-bum-bum ♪ gordon sondland's very expensive criminal defense lawyers had when you look at the world, ♪ exactly one mission during his testimony to the committees which was to get him through his what do you see? testimony without committing ♪ perjury, and it appears tonight that they may have failed in that mission.

william taylor's testimony today is a story of incompetent and where others see chaos, dangerous fools named trump and we see patterns. giuliani and sondland betraying ♪ america's multi-decade connections. commitment to ukraine and the ukrainian people. relationships. the day after donald trump's impeachable phone call with the ♪ president of ukraine, william taylor traveled to the front when you use location technology, line of the battle with russia. he said today, "i could see the armed and hostile russian-led you can see where things happen, forces on the other side of the damaged bridge across the line of contact. before they happen. over 13,000 ukrainians had been ♪ killed in the war. one or two a week. more ukrainians would with esri location technology, you can see what others can't. undoubtedly die without the u.s. assistance." ♪ that's what it was about for william taylor. saving ukrainian lives while donald trump and william taylor's view undoubtedly shouldn't get in the way of a good time.. condemned more ukrainians to die because a heart attack... as he illegally withheld aid that had been mandated by an act should never stop the heart of a family. of congress. because hemophilia... after william taylor's testimony shouldn't keep someone from doing what's in their blood.

today, donald trump's impeachable by the house of at bayer, everything we do... representatives is even more of from advances in health to innovations in agriculture... a certainty than it was yesterday. is to help every life we touch. and when members of the house at bayer, this is why we science. are voting to impeach donald trump, followed by the senators who will vote to convict and that could allow hackers devices into your home.ys and like all doors, remove donald trump, many of they're safer when locked. that's why you need xfinity xfi. them will be quoting the with the xfi gateway, elements of the impeachable devices connected to your homes wifi are protected. offenses outlined by william which helps keep people outside taylor today including the very from accessing your passwords, clear quid pro quo that some credit cards and cameras. and people inside republicans until today have from accidentally visiting sites that aren't secure. claimed was not in evidence and and if someone trys we'll let you know. surely as many house members and member senators announce their vote, they will be quoting william taylor saying, "more xfi advanced security. if it's connected, it's protected. ukrainians would undoubtedly call, click, or visit a store today. die." because of donald trump. leading off our discussion tonight, democratic congressman peter welch of vermont, member on the house intelligence committee. he was in the room today during william taylor's deposition. also with us, democratic congressman andy levin of michigan.

he's a member of the house foreign affairs committee. he was also in the room today during william taylor's deposition. and with us is evelyn farkas. former secretary of defense in the obama administration. she served on the staff of the senate armed services committee for seven years and she also served on the staff of the house foreign affairs committee. she's an msnbc national security analyst. and we are going to break with protocol tonight because as in congressional hearings, we usually go by congressional seniority here, but i want to here's what republican senator mitt romney said on start with the freshman. i want to start with sunday night on axios on hbo representative andy levin because you said today when we about what he will be looking were just a couple hours into for when he is a juror in the this testimony that this was senate impeachment trial of donald trump. your -- how did you put it? >> i'd like to learn the full your worst day so far in service background of who all was in the house? involved in communications with >> i think the most disturbing ukraine. day, lawrence, i think is what i what was said to them. what the intent was on the part said. >> and what was it that you were of the president, the hearing that left you with that? >> well, i am really intent on administration with regards to honoring our process, and i ukraine. think it's a process that respects the dignity of our >> that's what ambassador taylor witnesses and so i'm not going

testified to today. to talk a lot about a lot of ambassador william taylor could detail about what was said, but be the witness who answers all you have a president of the united states who said in front those questions for mitt romney. joining us now, john heilemann, national affairs analyst for of the nation, now, with the nbc, nbc news and msnbc. co-host and executive producer of show time's "the circus." also with us, mark thompson, phone call notes, that he host of "make it plain." daily podcast. muscled a foreign leader to do mark, the day began with donald trump calling this process a favors for him about his own lynching. only lindsey graham agreeing political life here in the with him. what we saw in what william united states. taylor delivered in his opening statement was anything but a not the past, but the future. lynching. not when he was a candidate, but >> no, it wasn't a lynching at he's a sitting president of the all. united states trying to get a despicable term for him to favors about his re-election use. like he's channeling clarence thomas somehow. campaign and you've got his aside, though, we don't need to acting chief of staff saying explain the racial that aid was held up, vital insensitivity, but let's be military assistance, to an ally specific. under attack by russia was held he is about to undergo a trial. lynchings were not trials. up for these political reasons. people were executed summarily of course, he tried to walk it based upon allegations which he back, but today, many bricks wanted to do to the central park were added to the edifice of the five, now the exonerated five. so for him to say he's a victim case of -- for the impeachment of a lynching when he is in the of donald trump. process of a trial, witnesses in

and it's -- i mean, if you're a his administration are patriotic american, lawrence, testifying against him, it's patently absurd. it's got to be a sad day. look, you have been more i mean, i personally take no joy outspoken than anyone about how in this, but it was an ridiculous he is, and frankly, overwhelming day, and why? because somebody like bill taylor, an infantry officer in how stupid he is. vietnam, 101st airborne, who went on to serve the country from his days at west point for so it just doesn't work. a total of 50 years and he is being given a fair and due counting, lawrence, he doesn't process and he needs to go ahead care about democrats. and participate in it. and if there's any vindication, he doesn't care about put it on the table. republicans. we doubt there's any vindication he cares about the national whatsoever. security interests of the united >> john heilemann, when i was states and he reluctantly came hearing donald trump lead his back to serve in the country, as crowds and encourage them in their "lock her up" chants, i you mentioned, that he loved so never heard them chanting about much, ukraine, and he's watching her having a trial before they right in front of his eyes a locked her up. >> yeah, you know, lawrence, the president undermine the national recourse to a process argument security of the united states is always the recourse of for his own political end. scoundrels. so that's a really sad day. >> yeah. and it just confirms what the >> it's, you know, when the facts are against you you argue president, himself, has said. the law.

this case, you can't argue the >> congressman welch, did this law. testimony give in the clearest this isn't speaking a legal proceeding. possible terms yet the quid pro it's a political proceeding. quo that some republicans have we've heard people on this show and other shows point out that been claiming was not present? the way that impeachment works >> well, it did. is that the house side is basically designed to be like a grand jury process. i mean, you nailed it, really, it's about the collection of in your opening. facts. essentially, what ambassador in the same way that a grand jury operates largely in secret. taylor saw was that the policy all the facts and then it makes a charge and the charge are the that we've had in ukraine since articles of impeachment. if they are passed, you then end 1991, by the way, he was up in the united states senate appointed as ambassador by where you have a genuine trial president bush, where we had as and you have all the -- afforded a goal to help ukraine fight all of the kind of due process internal corruption and resist that someone would normally get in a criminal -- in a criminal external aggression and it was a trial. bipartisan policy with strong that's what donald trump is surely headed now. i think there's not been a support from republicans and democrats and republican and question for a while that donald democratic presidents. trump was going to get impeached he saw that unraveling is what in the house of representatives. obviously, conviction is still a that report says. large question, but if there was any question in anyone's mind now, this is a sordid mess, but before today about whether i want to go back to something donald trump is going to be andy said because this is really impeached in the house of a moment of grace. representatives, that question i mean, this man, ambassador has now been fully obliterated taylor, he started his public

service on the plains of west by the testimony that we learned point when he was a teenager and went to vietnam and he never about today. >> mark, there are two key stopped. witnesses now against donald he was dedicated to a career of competence and professionalism trump are so far donald trump in and the constitution. his own rough transcript his requirement to serve in this job was assurance that he would released by the white house of be able to promote that policy his phone call, those words of donald trump on that phone call, of bringing ukraine into the western family of democracies. and ambassador taylor today. and as the testimony evolved, as >> yeah. you saw that in the statement ambassador taylor, that's a that is reported, he came to see compelling witness. that there was actually a rogue policy that was completely and i'm grateful that there are some people, witnesses and outside of the state department channels and was intent on obviously those witnesses, accomplishing one thing, and advisers, and attorneys, with that was getting dirt on joe biden. the good sense to go down there and getting involved in domestic and tell the truth. politics. everybody doesn't have to go something that was obviously bad down with the ship. and i'm glad. for us but it's also very bad and it's chilling because we for the ukraine because the don't get that on the phone point that the ambassador made call. was the linchpin, the strategic what taylor said that there significance of ukraine, was needed to be a public announcement of this. now, we can infer that from the that they did have bipartisan phone call, but for him to

support and he feared that would actually know that and have been jeopardize that bipartisan told that and for it to have support. been documented, that makes it >> and evelyn, there's a very personal, briefly told but even worse. >> john, taylor's testimony said personal story in his opening there was actually a plan that statement today that i think the president had and others everyone in government service involved, sondland, to get the recognized. president of ukraine to go on he talks about being asked to go television in an interview -- and do this job in ukraine for >> right. what would now be the trump >> -- in a public interview as administration and he was very trump put it, put him in a public box. reluctant because of what he had seen of the chaos of president >> yep. trump. >> where he would say that they he was very reluctant of serving are investigating the bidens. a president who he had really no >> right. and, you know, look, taylor, of reason to have confidence in. course, in his conversations with the ukrainians thought that and there's a friend, unnamed was a bad idea and kind of friend, who says to him -- canceled them. >> right, he said a former not to want to do it. i think, you know, you -- it is mentor. extraordinary, lawrence, the key >> -- when you're asked to serve elements of this testimony that the country, it doesn't matter we learned today on both sides, who the president is in a the notion that it was explicit situation like this, and we are that everything, meaning the so lucky that that friend gave military aid, was contingent on him that advice in the moment when he needed it and in a everything on the other side, meaning you had to investigate moment where he says that his the bidens, you had to wife was opposed to him doing this. investigate 2016 corruption, and that not only you had to do it, >> yeah, there are a lot of good but you had to do it publicly. people, lawrence, i know them, that all that stuff was that who are serving, some even in political positions in this explicit in the conversation administration because they with sondland, is a really

think they can make a devastating piece of evidence difference. and i do think that although the i mean, fiona hill is another example. white house right now is i talked to her before she went in. fighting back and try to portray she is not a political person, taylor as a left-wing member of but she felt she could make a difference. the deep state, the notion that she could do good. this man who was -- whose resume and bill taylor, he knew the background. says that he was made ambassador i mean, you can tell from the to ukraine by george w. bush and testimony, he knew what happened to masha yovanovitch, maria was reappointed as ambassador yovanovitch, the ambassador effectively ambassador to preceding him. all these people are ukraine by mike pompeo, it is interconnected. he went in despite that probably going to be very hard, i think, for the president's political thinking he could help, again. operatives to paint this person >> congressman levin, i want to as some kind of a read a piece from the opening clinton/obama/sanders/warren left-wing trotsky-ite member of a coup deep state. it doesn't work with the man's statement about john bolton in resume. which ambassador taylor said >> let me get a quick exit question as we head to break. mark thompson, can william taylor's testimony flip some ambassador bolton opposed the call between president republican votes in the house of zelensky and president trump out representatives? of concern that it would be a >> yes, i think so, including disaster. with everything else what's going on in syria. so there you have john bolton let's not forget about fiona doesn't want president trump to hill's testimony. even get on the phone with the i think all of that is damning. this is pretty bad. president of ukraine, apparently >> and john heilemann, to the because he was afraid of exactly senate, to, for example, senator what did happen on that call. romney, did he get in william >> lawrence, i just want to taylor's testimony what he said he needs to see to make a decision here? stress here the importance of bipartisanship in foreign policy >> i think it's hard to imagine mitt romney does not already have what he needs to see. and the broad consensus we've i think he's going to want to

had in our country about the see that trial proceed. i think the question, lawrence, importance of ukraine in this continues to be where on the day after thanksgiving, if this neighbor of russia, and i have trial does begin the day after to say, personally on my part, i thanksgiving as mitch mcconnell has suggested it will or the am from -- i'm a kid from week after thanksgiving, what is berkeley, michigan. donald trump's approval rating with the general public, and i grew up with what is his approval rating with ukrainian-american kids. the republican party? that will tell you what the places like warren and sterling senate trial is going to look like politically and whether heights in my district are a big there are going be a few senate center of the ukrainian-american votes to remove him or maybe more. community. >> yeah, exactly. so this is really important to >> republican votes. republican votes. >> exactly who does mitch me personally and to my mcconnell really want to have as constituents. a nominee for president in his and i think what those comments party? >> correct. >> in the following year. you referenced reflect is that mark thompson, john heilemann, thank you for guiding us through this. any normal republican or when we come back, a member of congress who has known democratic foreign policy ambassador william taylor for 20 professional would say that it's years will join us. she'll give us her view of the tremendously in our interests to support the development of credibility contest now between william taylor and gordon ukraine as a democratic society, sondland. try to nurture this very delicate flower that's had a lot of trouble growing. a lot of corruption there. could we help this new performance comes in lots of flavors. administration in ukraine become a flourishing democracy? that's why bill taylor signed up for duty again. there's the amped-up, over-tuned, and then he went in and found feeding-frenzy-of sheet-metal-kind.

this sort of cancer growing there and that's what we're all and then there's performance that just leaves you feeling better as a result. seeing, not just from bill taylor's testimony, but from all of this growing body of evidence that's the kind lincoln's about. that the president had a whole ♪ rogue foreign policy going on run by his personal attorney and that, sadly, too many of our walkabout wednesdays are back! get a sirloin or chicken on the barbie, fries, and a draft beer or coca-cola - all for just $10.99. hurry in! wednesdays are for outback. outback steakhouse. aussie rules. wednesdays are for outback.

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her today and asked her for her reaction to reported testimony including text messages about what donald trump and rudy giuliani were trying to do to ukraine. >> reporter: what do you make of these incredulous text messages that have come out from him questioning the administration policy on ukraine from after he got back into the country? >> well, he walked into a rat's nest, and i think that -- and the rats there are very big. >> representative marcy kaptur is co-chair of the ukraine caucus in the house of representatives. she serves as chairwoman of the house appropriations subcommittee on energy which has jurisdiction over the department of energy, which, of course, is led by secretary rick perry. congresswoman, thank you very much for joining us tonight. >> thank you. >> i want to get your reaction to what we're learning today yl he definitely had a hand in some of this communication about

this. is that something he should be testifying to your committee about? >> he should. he should actually go before the intelligence committee because i can affirm that secretary perry load the delegation to president zelensky, the new president of ukraine, to his inaugural. when president trump refused to go. and in addition to that, his travel to ukraine probably more than any of the top administration officials in the trump administration. the secretary often would tell me that he was going, but quite frankly, he never reported back formally in his testimony before our committee as to what he had actually accomplished. now that i've heard his announcement that he's leaving, i'm saying to myself, oh, no, actly where he fast. went. who was meeting with him. or in adjacent countries such as poland.

some of the other names that are being mentioned, mr. sondland, mr. volker, to what extent was secretary perry a very important member of that triumvirate? >> william taylor and gordon sondland are in a credibility clash. william taylor saying gordon sondland repeatedly laid out the very explicit exchange donald trump had in mind, that an investigation of the bidens was what was necessary to get the aid delivered to ukraine and/or to get a meeting with donald trump. gordon sondland said, absolutely, and said that under oath that no such understanding existed, there was no quid pro co. what can we bring to our understanding of these two people as we evaluate their credibility? >> well, i have known ambassador william taylor, i calculated it,

27 years, from the fall of the soviet union, a system of governance completely antithetical to our own, all the way up to the present day when he came out of retirement to serve our country in an embattled country called ukraine where, which really is the scrimmage line for liberty on the vast european continent. the largest landmass nation in all of europe and the doorstep to liberty in russia someday, i hope. and i have watched him work as an ambassador but also as a military genius. he was in afghanistan, iraq. he had fought for our country in the 82nd airborne and 101st in vietnam. he's a west point graduate. he's a scholar. he was an assistant director at the institute of peace here in washington. and he came out of retirement. this man has given a half century of his life to this country. he is a true patriot. and i don't want to be too critical here, but i think i must, i cannot find a single

veteran in the trump family, and, indeed, the president, himself, chose not to enter the military when he was asked during the war in vietnam. so you have two very different individuals here. someone who has selflessly served his country and someone who appears to be using his position to advantage some of his own personal interests and, frankly, jeopardizing liberty in a most tender part of the world where russia has invaded ukraine. >> congresswoman marcy kaptur, thank you very much for joining us tonight. really appreciate it. >> thank you. and when we come back, did william taylor's testimony today move rudy giuliani closer to being indicted along with his friends and associates lev parnas and igor fruman who are already indicted and will actually be arraigned tomorrow? that's next.

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from the start, donald trump and his teammates have been looking for back channels. before donald trump was inaugurated, jared kushner was trying to setup a secret back channel to communicate with russia. one of the trump team members involved iptrying to setup that back channel to russia is now a

convicted felon, donald trump's first national security advisor, michael flynn. is rudy giuliani next? before ambassador william taylor testified today rudy giuliani was already under federal criminal investigation for his back channel dealings with ukraine along with two of his associates, lev parnas and igor fruman. lev and ignor will be arraigned tomorrow. they'll surely be studying the transcript of today's deposition with ambassador william taylor for more evidence of what rudy giuliani has been up to. we have access only to ambassador taylor's opening statement in what became ten hours of testimony. in that opening statement ambassador taylor said, the push to make president zelensky publicly commit to investigations of burisma and the uh-uh ledged interference in the 2016 election showed how the

official paolicy of the presidet of united states was undercut by the irregular efforts led by mr. giuliani. former prosecutor barbara mcquade is here to evaluate what the testimony could mean in the criminal investigation of rudy giuliani, an investigation peag conducted by the same u.s. attorneys office that rudy giuliani used to be in charge of when he was the u.s. attorney for the southern district of new york. that's next. r the southern distw york that's next. course i have- ever since i started renting from national. because national lets me lose the wait at the counter... ...and choose any car in the aisle. and i don't wait when i return, thanks to drop & go. at national, i can lose the wait...and keep it off. looking good, patrick. i know. (vo) go national. go like a pro.

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this is not just rogue giuliani self-dealing in ukraine. he's an agent of the president, the president is his client. anything rudy giuliani does is on behalf of the president, so rudy is president trump, president trump is rudy. >> joining our discussion now is barbara mcquade, the former u.s. attorney for the eastern district of michigan and an msnbc legal contributor and john heilemann is back with us. barbara, what happened to the criminal investigation of rudy giuliani today? >> well, i think it likely got stronger. i think that as you said if i was a prosecutor in the southern district of new york i'd want to get my hands on that transcript of what bill taylor had to say today. we got his opening statement 15 pages of where he talked about rudy giuliani being the leader of this alternative world of foreign policy that was going on at the same time leading the foreign policy in a very dark place to put together this quid pro quo, this idea that in

exchange for an investigation on biden and the 2016 election, president trump would release this aid. that could very well be a prescribery sche bribery scheme. i think a conspiracy to commit bribery is something very much on the table and something they'd be looking at today. i think they'd be scouring the many hours of deposition testimony for other leads and witnesses they can to about this. >> let's take a look at rudy giuliani's televised confession when asked the question, did you ask ukraine to investigate joe biden. >> did you ask the ukraine to investigate joe biden? >> no, actually i didn't. i asked the ukraine to investigate the allegations that there was interference in the election of 2016 by the

ukrainians for the benefit of hillary clinton -- >> so you did ask ukraine to look into joe biden? >> of course i did. >> to the point of what barbara was saying and eric swalwell before, i had been joking for a while rudy giuliani was donald trump's criminal lawyer except without the lawyer part. increasingly that seems to me it's not just a joke but true. we're going to see two of his associates hauled into court tomorrow, our friends lev and igor, who we met a couple of weeks ago. you've got connections increasingly ukrainian oligarchs and it is increasingly looking like a very cloudy scheme that involves an effort to both profiteer and profiteer off of election interference with rudy giuliani at the center of it. and i think everything that has happened, this testimony today obviously the most damning. but what we've seen over the course of the last week and a

half, and i think going forward we're going to find out more and more details to the extent of which rudy giuliani is at the center. the point swalwell well is very important. you will remember where you had the president basically saying all these guys were freelancing, i didn't know anything about this. that was reagan's defense. in this case it's impossible for rudy giuliani to freelance on donald trump's behalf. he's not in the government. the only connection he has through this is directly through the one principle in the government that he's serving, and that's donald trump. so that i think puts a lot of onus on rudy giuliani, and also on the connection between the president of the united states and this particular gentleman. >> barbara, eric swalwell was actually echoing a concept advanced in the nixon impeachment that the staff was acting on behalf of the president. so the president was by in effect guilty of all the things that the staff was also accused of. what do you make of the way eric swalwell just phrased it, that

it basically comes down to trump is giuliani and giuliani is trump in. >> yeah, i don't think the law or the house is going to be quite so aligned in saying that even if president trump didn't know what rudy giuliani was doing that they would hold him accountable. but nonetheless the sole reason rudy giuliani is engaging in these transactions is for the benefit of president trump. and if you look at what bill taylor said today, he puts president trump squarely in the middle of some of those conversations of asking president zelensky of ukraine to put him in a box, to make an announcement about investigations. and so, yes, rudy giuliani is acting as his agent in traveling, but president trump is very much involved according to bill taylor. >> barbara mcquade gets tonight's last word. thank you both for joining our discussion tonight. really appreciate it. tonight, a public servant for half a century, a veteran turned veteran diplomat, plainly

tells congress what he saw and what he walked into when he found rudy giuliani conducting foreign policy. where he encountered donald trump's demand that a foreign country investigate the bidens in return for money from the u.s. because of this man, this was a consequential day for this country. also tonight, the president invokes a painful term to talk about his own victimization. while it is a giant distraction, it is also a giant wound from our past. it doesn't happen often, but again today mitch mcconnell pushed back on the president. and another insi