key to what exactly rudy giuliani was doing in ukraine to dig up dirt on the bidens. and we're learning details about the men in ukraine who may have played a role in the oust of maria yovanovitch. we'll have reaction from the top democrat on the senate relations committee. jeff, i want to start with you on capitol hill quickly because you are staking out where we believe the ambassador may arrive. what are you seeing and what are you hearing? >> reporter: hallie, we're keeping our heads on swivels because we do expect her to show up within minutes. we have not seen the former ambassador arrive here, but i can tell you that preparations are under way for this deposition to be carried out in the basement of the house in the secure area where the house intelligence committee does a lot of its work. our team has seen the relevant members go into the room. we've seen ambassador

yovanovitch's lawyer walk in. when this deposition starts up, and we expect that it will at this point, lawmakers have a lot of questions. they want to know what yovanovitch knows about this influenc we know from the evidence that exists in the public record that she is one of the former state department officials who raised a lot of concerns about the work that giuliani was doing outside of official state department channels. that is precisely what led to her ouster. giuliani sent a pact of misinformation to the state department which house investigators have now released to the press. president trump referred to her as bad news before recalling her from her post in the ukraine. she spent the last several months here teaching at georgetown. she's still a state department foreign service officer. when she shows up here, there's a big question as to whether or not she's doing it with the approval of the state department. because earlier this morning we learned that ambassador gordon sondland, the ambassador to the eu, had been blocked, of course his testimony and his turning

over documents had been blocked by the state cancellation. his legal team sent us a statement that reads as such. he says after consultation with committee staff his testimony is now scheduled for thursday, october 17th. notwithstanding the state department's current direction not to testify, ambassador sondland will honor the commit's subpoena and he looks forward to testifying on thursday. he makes clear, though, that the documents, that the evidence he has on his personal devices that these commits want to see. he says that's a different issue. he says he's turned it over to the state department and it's their call how they handle it. that's not under his control, hallie. >> jeff, when we say that she could be arriving any minute, that's not tv speak? she literally could be showing up during your live shot here? >> reporter: no, and if i look distracted, it's because i'm looking around for her in particular. >> you do your thing. i want to go over to hans nichols. hans, because this is such a fast-moving morning, i've been looking at my emails and as we were coming on the air and i was reading at the top of the show i saw that you sent out a note

about the trump administration and your reporting and what you're hearing this morning from white house officials. are they going to block her or not? >> reporter: there are two things going on. number one, they don't know, there just as alert to what's happening on capitol hill as jeff is, because certain white house officials that i've been talking to don't actually know if she is going to appear. so it is a test case in that sense. >> the expectations are as we heard from jeff, seems like everybody thinks she's going to show at so point based on all the signals we've been getting from our sources. >> reporter: but from your reporting, the white house doesn't actually know if she will. that's an indication that potentially the lines of commune kag indication have broken down between yovanovitch. remember, she is still a state department official and should be answering to the president of the united states, according to the white house. the other side of this story is the white house maintains that they still have the ability to block testimony of any state department official if a state department attorney is not present.

now, the crucial question then becomes they can maintain that, but what are they actually doing to plan it, to implement, to potentially prevent these individuals from testifying. because it's clear from schiff's side that there will not be a state department attorney present. so if you see yovanovitch walking in preparing to testify, that's an indication she's breaking ranks not just with the state department, not just with the white house, but casting a doubt over this entire ability of the white house to control who is testifying on capitol hill. >> i'm going to do the annoying thing and ask both of you, hans and jeff, to stay in front of your cameras. jeff especially as we wait to see if ambassador yovanovitch shows up. again, we thought that maybe at this point she would have walked in by now. we are going to keep the live shot up but i want to bring in a couple of folks who are experts in this. two former administration officials, evelyn farkas is an msnbc national security analyst who worked with the ambassador. we're also joined by matt

bennett who knows this issue inside and out. evelyn, to you first, you know her and you've worked with ambassador yovanovitch. what insights could you share in how she may be getting ready to move forward? >> everything i know about her tells me that this woman is going to want to tell congress everything she knows. she was deeply wronged by this administration in trying to fulfill her duties. she's a solid, straight arrow. not a flashy person at all. foreign service officer. that also means she has the backing of the institution. i'm not talking about the secretary. i'm talking about the foreign service. they have their own association, their own union, if you will. she's definitely, i can imagine, getting a lot of advice internally from state department lawyers, because of how they've been treating her all along. and i'm sure she has her own private attorneys or private advisers, but she's going to want to speak. so it will be interesting to see what she does.

>> we are hearing now from devin nunez, the ranking member on the house intelligence committee, saying he does not know if she is going to show up. that's what his statement is publicly. i want to blowup your spot a little bit, matt. because when hans was sharing his reporting from the white house about their view on being able to block her testimony, you started shaking your head immediately. why? >> it can be overstated how insane this is. they are just making things up as they go along. the white house issued an incredible eight-page letter the other day completely made up. none of it based on any legal history or law. if you look at the last impeachment, and i was in the white house for it, we didn't do this kind of thing. when subpoenas went out, they were honored. we worked with -- >> the white house would make the argument that that's because there was a full vote on opening the impeachment inquiry in the house. >> also completely made up. that is a totally irrelevant -- >> the argument?

>> the argument is made up. who cares if there's a vote? in the house the majority rules, the majority makes the rules. that's by the way how it's going to work in the senate if it goes over there for a trial. mitch mcconnell will be in charge. that is how the system is set up. >> i want to break away from this live shot for a moment. on the politics, something interesting happened this morning, maryland governor larry hogan has come out in favor of this impeachment inquiry. he's a republican who has been on the sidelines so far. i want to play for you what he had to say this morning. watch. >> i think we do need an inquiry because we've got to get to the bottom of it. i'm not ready to say i support impeachment and the removal of the president. but i think we have to have an impeachment inquiry. but i'm very concerned about can we have a fair and objective one. and i'm not sure we can in this democratic congress. >> i mean, that's about as far as any republican official has gone so far.

it is disappointing, to say the least, that you're not seeing more republicans step up and say what we saw in the transcript that the white house released was itself prima facia conduct that is impeachable. they could impeach just on that. they don't even need any witnesses. >> we talked a little bit to evelyn about ambassador gordon sondland, the ambassador to the eu bade on our reporting in the last 45 minutes or so has indicated in kind of weird language, but it seems like he's going to defy the state department and show up next week for a deposition. he of course is somebody who was interacting with officials in ukraine, was part of those text messages revealed by a different diplomat where after bill taylor said i think it's crazy to withhold assistance, said the president has been crystal clear to quid pro quos of any kind. i suggest we stop the back and forth by text after speaking with president trump. how important is it to hear from him? >> this guy sondland, he's the

fixer. he's the guy that the white house and probably secretary pompeo -- >> although we don't know what the interactions have been with secretary pompeo. >> i'm reading a little between the lines. but he is a guy who is trusted by pompeo. because even in the message he sends back to the current ambassador in ukraine, he says if you have a problem with this, check with s. s is secretary, secretary pompeo. so he's doing everything with the knowledge, he seems to indicate, of secretary pompeo for president trump, working this deal with the ukrainians. i think we really have to go back again to this point that my colleague here made, you know, about what's going on here. because the american people need to really step back and understand that what the president was doing with giuliani and these ukrainians and trying to get yovanovitch, the ambassador of ukraine out of the way, was to get foreigners to give dirt to americans. to get foreign interference when the clintons got some money from

the taiwanese, they had to immediately return it in the '90s. you probably remember that. so it's not okay for foreigners to be mucking about with americans in our election. >> you're setting us up nicely for the next piece of the discussion, i hope you didn't have coffee or break fast plans. i'm going to ask you to hang out a little bit longer until we see potentially ambassador yovanovitch walk in the doors that we've been showing you live. again, our teams are blanketing capitol hill to see if she is going to show up and what she may say if and when she does. you can see congressman mark meadows walking in. a top republican and top ally of the president. seems like not even members of congress at this point know if she is going to show up or not. he is not talking to the camera. it sound like he's saying he may come back there. we talked about how the former ambassador, yovanovitch, is also mentioned in the indictment of these two associates of rudy

giuliani. basically they're giuliani's inside men in ukraine. they were arrested at dulles airport with one-way tickets out of the country and both of them were seen here with giuliani in a video posted in september of last year. nbc has not confirmed when this video you're looking at was shot. they're also charged with violating campaign finance laws by trying to funnel foreign money into u.s. politics. the charges were filed by prosecutors in the southern district of new york which rudy giuliani used to head up. ken delainy is here with us. as we wait for the potential arrival of yovanovitch, talk about how she is connected to the indictment for the two giuliani fixers, you could call them? >> according to our reporting, these two men were telling people in ukraine that they had political clout with the trump administration and that they were pressing for the removal of this ambassador because they said she was disparaging trump

and because she was opposing their business interests. an american gas executive who does business in ukraine dale perry tell us that he got wind and was disturbed because he knew the ambassador to be a good public servant. in the indictment filed yesterday, prosecutors allege that these men contributed a lot of money to an unnamed congressman that we've identified as retired pete sessions and that they were pressing sessions to help them get rid of this ambassador. and sessions ultimately -- >> i'm sorry, we've got to go to jeff bennett here. >> reporter: what message do you hope to share with the house investigators today, ma'am? will you be represented by state department counsel or are you here alone? >> and that of course is the ambassador yovanovitch walking in now to the capitol. jeff bennett trying to get her to answer some questions.

she clearly is not going to be doing that. i think we're about to be able to cut to another camera shot of her walking in through the inside of the building. this is significant, because up until this exact second, we did not know if the former ambassador to ukraine was going to show up for this private, closed-door deposition with house investigators. you can see her i think walking in. significant, because again, lawmakers want to know what yovanovitch knows about rudy giuliani's dealings in ukraine, whose order he was in ukraine on as he was trying to dig up dirt on joe biden. we're going to keep the shot up. i want to bring back in evelyn farkas, who knows ambassador yovanovitch, worked with her from her time in the previous administration. i can imagine, evelyn, it's not a surprise to you based on our conversation earlier in the show, that she has now appeared. you said she wants to talk? >> she wants to talk.

she really is somebody who believes in the oath that she took to the constitution. that means she's a representative not just -- not of a particular president, but of the united states, the president of the united states, our government, our people. this is a very serious person. >> jeff bennett, i think is still with us. i don't know if you're still plugged in. i know you were trying to get the ambassador to answer some questions for you. she has now entered the building. the last time -- how long do we expect this to go? i know the deposition last week was hours and hours and hours. is there any expectation that we have here? >> reporter: this is an all-day affair here, hallie. and here's the thing that people should know about yovanovitch. and you might have already said this. forgive me, i wasn't listening to all of the programming. this is a woman who has spent 30 years at the state department cullty vating her career. we don't know whether or not she is testifying, appearing here with the approval of the state department. if she is not, that would suggest to me that she is

risking a lot. not just her government pension and all of that if she would have to leave her post or faces any sort of repercussions for testifying here today. but she is not like gordon sondland, who remember had no diplomatic experience and got that post as an ambassador to the eu largely because he donated a million dollars to donald trump's inauguration through a number of llcs that he set up. so when gordon sondland says he's going to testify next week despite the vow from the white house not to cooperate with this inquiry, that is a very different position that he's in than the one that yovanovitch is in as a career diplomat. so we do expect the relevant house leadership, adam schiff is there obviously. you've got republicans in leadership positions on these commits. we do expect them to come and talk to us reporters at various points throughout the day as they've done with different depositions. i think it's important that people know that her appearance

here today is certainly a decision she does not make lightly. and if she's doing it without the express support of the state department, she is certainly risking a lot. >> hans, you are at the white house. and i know that you have been talking to officials who are waiting to see exactly what we had just been waiting to see, which was the arrival or not of the ambassador. we now know she's obviously in the building. >> she arrived and we don't know if she'll talk. in some ways they are flying just as blind as we are. they're trying to figure out whether or not their entire strategy, which is to prevent state department officials from talking without an attorney present, if that will hold today. and it's important if it hold today because it's a test case for all of the other not just state, think of defense, think of all the subpoenas and depositions that are out there. >> department of energy people, for example. >> this is the test case. we will see whether or not she actually speaks. she's arrived, she's appearing. whether or not she speaks

without an attorney present is the crucial question. and i suspect it's going to be an all-day affair but i suspect we'll have an answer to that pretty quickly. if she declines to talk, that will start leaking out pretty quickly. republicans may be quick to claim that this means the president's strategy is holding. we could know within the hour whether or not she's sitting for a long deposition or staying mum. >> these are staffers who will be conducting the deposition, but lawmakers are able to be in the room. we saw mark meadows walk in. we know that devin nunez is in washington, or at least at the studio. as we take a look now at the door entryway there to see who else may be going in and out of that room. matt, your thoughts here? >> it is really hard to overstate how dangerous it is for the white house to be saying that these people shouldn't testify, shouldn't testify without a lawyer present. normally when you ask for a lawyer to be present, that's to protect you, the witness. this is to protect them.

there is no precedent in our history for this. congress has the absolute right to conduct this inquiry. they absolutely have the right to subpoena these witnesses. they have been told by the white house that they're simply not going to cooperate and they have been given no legal reason for that. the white house sometimes uses this executive privilege claim but there's no claim of executive privilege with the ambassador. she didn't have conversations about this with the president. this is just a pure power play by the white house to try to get their people to stay silent. i'm also kind of skeptical about the thing around gordon sondland, because the reporting this morning was that trump allies want him to testify. they may be playing a game now where they say they don't want him to testify because he is clearly a trump guy. he gave a lot of money and he's politically connected. >> you are taking a look on the left side of your screen of what we like to call the live shot tour of the capitol hill campus with our various cameras that are flooding the capitol here.

we're keeping an eye on that. jeff bennett, i think you are probably trying to run into the building now. if you can bear with me and talk with me while you're on the move. feel free to tell me you've got to go. but talk a little bit about the idea -- >> reporter: now that she's in the room, i'm all yours. >> that's good to know. i hope you're not busy for the next 40 minutes. when you look at what she may say, let's come back to the idea of why she is so important to lawmakers. there have been allegations of now former congressman pete sessions, who was we believe the congressman mentioned in the indictment of the two giuliani associates we've been talking about where he claims he heard she had been making disparaging marks about the president, the administration. ostensibly that was part of the reasoning of why she was yanked out of ukraine. what more are you tell us about that? >> reporter: the dots that

yovanovitch can connect have to do with the how and the why. how rudy giuliani was running the traps there in eastern europe outside of the normal diplomatic channels, and precisely why he was doing it. those were the questions that she raced and that's precisely why rudy giuliani sought to smear her. that's actually backed up by documentation in the whistle-blower complaint in part, but also in the packet of disinformation that giuliani sent to the state department that the ig then turned over to house investigators. so that really is what these commit staffers are going to press her about. >> we've got you jeff, we've got hans at the white house. we've got our team of reporters and analysts covering this thing. ambassador maria yovanovitch is inside the room. we don't know yet if she is going to be answering questions from the staffers in that private deposition. i expect that our reporting team will have more information on that as the morning develops and as this hour develops. we're going to stay on that. we have to share with you some

different breaking news now. it is a major ruling in a case involving president trump's financial records and it appears to be a win for house democrats. nbc ne nbc news justice correspondent, pete williams, can you talk to us about the ruling? >> this is a two to one ruling by a three-judge panel of the washington dv court of appeals in favor of the house committee on oversight and reform. this is the committee that in april sent a subpoena to a accounting firm of donald trump asking for some financial records and this followed michael cohen's testimony that said the president would inflate his net worth when he was trying to get favorable consideration for building projects and would underestimate it when he was trying to make insurance claims or other financial trans actions and that he wasn't fully

reporting all the payments that he made involving the hush money payment. so the house committee subpoenaed records from donald trump's accounting firm, and the firm said well, i'm sorry, we can't do that. and this went to court. the house committee won in the trial court and then trump's lawyers appealed it to the dc court of appeals, which today ruled again in the committee's favor. now, the argument against releasing these records by president trump's lawyers was that the only time that congress has the right of access to these documents is for legislative purposes, and this sort of a hunt that the committee was on, trump's lawyers said didn't satisfy that criteria. but today in this two to one ruling the court said yes it does. trump's lawyers can try to appeal to the supreme court or try to get an injunction, a stay on the judge's order to try to stop this.

but for now it's another victory for the house democrats in this continuing series of lawsuits that are now working their way through the courts. both on access to testimony from trump administration officials and access to financial documents related to the president. >> pete, forgive me if this is an obvious question, but the supreme court, is that where this would go next? is that the next step if the president's attorneys choose to escalate this? >> they have a choice. if she choose to appeal, they can go to the full washington, d.c. court of appeals. the way it works in federal court when you appeal, it always goes to a three-judcourt. that is one option is to go to the full panel. and then the other option is to go to the supreme court and lawyers often decide where are their best options, where are they more likely to prevail. the trump administration has had some success in getting stays on lower court orders from the supreme court. the supreme court doesn't

usually like to do that, but they've had some success. and i would predict that's probably what they'll try. >> nbc's pete williams. thank you very much for bringing us breaking news. as soon as we hit a commercial break i will text the president's attorneys and see how they plan to respond. our team is working on that. also checking in on a response, i want to bring in the top democrat on the foreign relations committee. bob menendez. are you for being on the show. >> good to be with you. >> we want to talk to you about syria. i have to start with the series of developments that we have heard this morning. let me start with what we just heard from pete williams, what appears to be a win for democrats in getting the president's financial records. are you confident that democrats will prevail if this were to go to the supreme court? >> they should. at the end of the day this is a fundamental test of our constitution. it's clear in my mind also as a member of the senate finance committee that access to these

documents is totally a legitimate request of the congress. and so they should prevail at the end of the day. the president is not above the law, including getting access in this regard to his tax returns. >> we about ten minutes ago on this show watched live as ambassador maria yovanovitch, the former u.s. ambassador to ukraine appeared on capitol hill for a closed-door deposition with house democratic staffers, house investigator staffers on both sides actually. you and your democratic colleagues, you want to hear from the ambassador as well. tell me why. what are you hoping to learn from her? >> well, first of all, maria yovanovitch is one of the most highly respected ambassadors we have in the career foreign service. i sat as the former chairman of the senate foreign relations committee in some of her hearings when she was nominated to different posts. she is extraordinary. and i don't know whether the state department tried to impede

her or not, but i'm not surprised that regardless of what may have happened behind-the-scenes that she is there testifying. that is the nature and character of her. she is an example of our foreign service, which secretary pompeo should be defending. what we want to hear is, first of all, why was she ousted well before her time was due? what was the request, i understand that she insisted that mr. giuliani make any requests of the ukrainian government to come to the embassy, not to be a lone ranger outside of the department's parameters and the ambassador in charge, which was her at the time. i would like to know what took place not only in that regard, but her conversations at the state department. this is why all of the senate democrats on the foreign relations committee have sent a letter to chairman rich asking him for hearings that includes her testimony. >> have you heard back? do you expect that will happen, senator? >> well, for both the chairman,

as well as republicans in the house and the senate, this is a moment in which they must decide to be patriots and not partisans. the president is the greatest threat to the constitution of the united states since it was written. madison, washington, franklin have to be turning over in their graves. and if our institutions are to stand the test, that means that people, regardless of their party affiliation, have to put country first above their partisan needs. so this is i hope the chairman will answer the call. i don't know how all of these issues, dealing with foreign policy, from syria to what happened in ukraine, to rudy giuliani acting as a private citizen, but seeming like he was the de facto ambassador, what did the state department know, what did secretary pompeo know? these all affect foreign policy questions beyond that.

>> based on what you have seen and the evidence in front of you, would you vote to impeach the president if those articles came to the senate floor? >> let me just say that if the house of representatives ultimately votes and passes articles of impeachment, then the senate will act as a jury. and as such, it will hear all the testimony to back up those articles of impeachment. so i'm not going to prejudge what the ultimate decision will be. but i am going to give it the very serious process that is necessary, because this is a moment of constitutional crisis, i believe, that the president has taken us to. and so i'll reserve my judgment until that time. >> senator, i think you know that as part of my day job i cover the white house for nbc news. i was on the south lawn with president trump yesterday when he laid out several options, as he called them, for how to respond to this turkish military operation that is now in day three in syria. the president talked about maybe sending troops to turkey, maybe

mediating a deal between the turks and kurds, possibly tough sanctions. of the three popoptions, are anf them realistic? would you support any of them? >> first of all, we largely had an agreement. that's what this buffer zone was all about. and it was working well. all of our military tell us it was working well. the president has committed in my view one of the most significant national security blunders in what he's done here. at the end of the day, the kurds were in the midst of fighting alongside with us, and more importantly, many times ahead of us, on a counter-isis efforts. they have detained and are overseeing over 10,000 isis fighters that are in jails. they are now withdrawing from that because they have to defend themselves because president trump allowed them to be attacked. the only people winning in this regard is putin, erdogan, and we also created an enormous

challenge to israel because iran wants a land bridge that ultimately can attack israel and the syria part of this that we were in crow yateates an openin them to do exactly that. not to mention that globally we are sending a message don't fight with and alongside the united states, because when they're finished with you they'll let you die on the battlefield. >> one of the things the president mentioned was sanctions. as you know some of your colleagues, senator graham and van holland were introducing a sanctions package against turkey. does that go far enough? >> i'm always willing to consider sanctions, but what the president needs to do is change course. he needs to reverse and stop the security blunder that has so many dimensions. already, according to the defense departments intel, inspector general analysis, up to 14 to 18,000 isis fighters apart from the 10,000 that have been jailed. unleash the 10,000 and you have

isis recreated. an enormous challenge to our interests. and i would rather fight them there than fight them here on american soil. >> senator bob menendez, i appreciate you being back on the show. >> thank you. >> we have more to come, because the president is signaling now just this hour some optimism for these trade talks with china going down in washington. and you know what, the markets are reacting as we speak. we're taking you to the trade talks live when we get back. the way you triumph over adversity. and live your lives. that's why we redesigned humira. we wanted to make the experience better for you. now there's less pain immediately following injection. we've reduced the size of the needle and removed the citrate buffers. and it has the same effectiveness you know and trust. humira citrate-free is here.

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take it seriously. exclusive to share with you on what might end up being a blockbuster week on capitol hill. house democrats scheduling 11 depositions and document deadlines over the next five days as part of their impeachment inquiry. the calendar is packed. it includes ousted state department officials, trump associates, staffers, including one of the guys we've been talking about, ambassador gordon sondland. also, look at the start of the week. if you look at monday, former nfc official fiona hill, she is the former aide to russia, and this is going to be critical. why? because hill, according to sources, apparently is ready to give an eye-opening account of how the white house tried to pursue a shadow policy on

ukraine. hill's appearance is already making the west wing anxious while congress is seeing if they'll let her testify at all or try to invoke executive privilege. i want to bring josh ledderman in and ken dilanian. josh, let me start with you here. talk a little bit about what fiona hill plans on telling congress and why this is significant. >> it is significant and a source that's close to her and knowledgeable about her testimony, tells nbc news that she plans to testify that ambassador sondland and rudy giuliani basically pulled an end-run around the white house, her and other senior officials, like former national security adviser john bolton to run their own shadow foreign policy on ukraine. that there's a typical custom way that people are supposed to interact with the president as far as foreign policy, and they basically circumvented that and were running their own show.

this is significant for several reasons and we expect that fiona hill, when she testifies next week, we know that officials in the white house and those close to trump are pretty upset and concerned about what she has to say. not only because she's not someone that was viewed as a trump loyalist, she's someone that had worked in government before, has broader loyalties than just to the president. but also because she had a front-row seat for the entirety of the trump administration to everything they were doing, not only in ukraine, but also on russia. >> she is somebody who has bein in some of the discussions. what is the likelihood the white house is going to try to stop her? >> she expect that the white house will probably try to block her from testifying. it's unclear whether that will be successful because she's a former official. she doesn't work for the government anymore. she can try to assert executive privilege. the laws is pretty murky as far as whether privilege can be

asserted over former officials and it's possible that she may end up testifying under subpoena from congress, which would give her a little bit more cover to basically ignore an instruction from the white house not to testify. >> ken, give us the broader view here, because i think for a lot of folks when we pull up the calendar of who is testifying, getting deposed, it's a lot of names, it's a lot of diplomats and a lot of information. the key thing seems to be these are people who have insight potentially on what rudy giuliani was doing when he was trying to dig up dirt, and who told him to do that. is that fair? >> yeah, and i think it's pretty clear who told him to do it, the president of the united states. we know from the call with the ukrainian president that donald trump was not hiding his ambitions with regard to ukraine. he wanted them to investigate his political opponents. and that's what's at the heart of all of this. that's why these witnesses like fiona hill are so important. when we talk about the policy, the question becomes to what

end? what was the purpose of the shadow policy? we already know from the text messages we've seen that the purpose was to pressure ukraine to investigate the bidens and to investigate other aspects of the 2016 election that donald trump was interested in. that was in fact a condition of good relations with donald trump. and to do that, we bypassed the normal diplomatic processes, the normal experts, and the white house should be terrified of the testimony of fiona hill. she not only knows about the ukraine stuff, she knows a lot of things about conversations with putin, about what trump told the russians in the oval office. she's a native of england, a joint uk, us citizen, who became a russia hawk over the years and has been working behind-the-scenes to sort of steer the trump administration to get tough on russia, even as donald trump has been soft on putin. she's been negotiating that behind the scenes. rudy giuliani and these character parnas and fruman who have been indicted, they were all doing this in the service of donald trump's ambition to get

dirt on his opponents from a foreign government. >> ken dilanian, i appreciate that. josh, excellent reporting. you can check it out at nbc news.com. thanks to the both of you. there is more breaking news not just here in washington, but also on washington street. they were going to show you the big board. that's our friend over at cnbc who is standing in front of where the china trade talks are happening. that is the reason, kayla, where the markets seem to be responding positively. fair to say based on your reporting inside the room that things seem to be going well so far? >> not just my reporting. according to the president, who despite being about 100 yards away, continues to executive produce these talks from just across the street, tweeting earlier this morning that talks are going better and that the relationship is warmer than it's been in the recent past. he's trying to juice the market and build expectations that there's some positive momentum and development later today. people i talked to who are close

to the talks are reluctant to say exactly what form this will take, whether it will be an agreement to package a deal. some of the nomenclature that's being tossed around, that's call them action items. a few of the things that are being discussed are potential waivers for u.s. companies to do business with huawei, which had previously been banned on national security grounds. potential purchases by china of more u.s. agriculture, potential opening of more industries to u.s. and foreign companies in china. removing a requirement that a chinese investor has to buy into those companies in order for them to operate there. and then there's the potential for an october 15th tariff escalation to go away. those are the things that are on the table right now. but of course everyone is reluctant to say exactly what the president will do. but in the words, hallie, of one white house staffer, we need this right now given everything else going on in washington. >> does it seem to you then that they're on track for a bigger deal or a smaller scale one?

>> well, the president wants to have his cake and eat it, too. he wants to be able to show that they're making progress in the near term, have the stock market go up, erase some of the losses that we've seen in recent months when these talks have gn poorly. he also wants to be able to show to the democratic field who says that president trump is right to be tough, but perhaps not tough enough to say we're going to keep the pressure on, and we're going to keep the talks ongoing. they won't really be able to get the big picture concessions out of a day like today. so that will be the president trying to say we won this part, but of course the war is still being fought even though they won the battle. >> kayla, out there in front of the nstr. thank you for being with us with developing news. we have more to come on this show, including the joe biden/donald trump back and forth getting intensely personal at least from the president's end. highlights from his rally, and

new reporting on how joe biden's campaign plans to respond. plus, did you know this, nobel peace prize has been awarded to the prime minister who helped end his country's war, the conflict between the two nations killed more than 80,000 people during two years of violence. the prize comes as the 43-year-old faces pressure to uphold the sweeping freedoms he introduced when he took office a year and a half ago. bunch of moy switching your boat insurance to geico. it was easy. folks, can it get any better than this? is that what i think it is? that is an armada of tiny sushi boats. awesome! i forgot to pack lunch. you had one job... chopsticks wasabi and soy! comin' in a little hot. it only gets better when you switch and save with geico.

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if you thought the 2020 presidential race wasn't getting personal enough, you must have missed the president's rally overnight where president trump took it there against joe biden and his family. >> joe's son hunter got thrown out of the navy and then he became a genius on wall street in about two days. hunter, you're a loser, your father was never considered smart. he was only a good vice president because he understood how to kiss barack obama's ass. >> president trump not just getting personal, but continue to spread exaggerated misleading claims. we have new reporting on the

biden campaign. peter alexander is over at the white house. mike, tell us what you're hearing from your sources inside biden world. >> reporter: hallie, what i'm hearing is this what they saw in terms of the split screen, this contrast between the president and their view increasingly unnerved and unhinged as he's feeling the weight of the pressure of this investigation on capitol hill and now legal troubles closing in on his lawyer, rudy giuliani, versus the statesman like way that you see the former vice president talking about the issues that matter to voters. this is a point biden made in a tweet directed at the president. he said while he was at the forum in los angeles yesterday talking about the fundamental dignity that all americans deserve, the president is, as he put it, showing little respect he has for anyone else. america is so much stronger than your weakness. now, hallie, it's also interesting we talked the other day about the speech the vice president gave in new hampshire, much more direct taking on the president on these issues. we tend to get even more insight

into his thinking at these fundraisers and we do have access to them. we know from a poller who was there when he spoke to donors last night, even using more pointed language than biden has in the past. calling rudy giuliani, for instance, a thug. saying that in terms of the president that he is -- his policy on immigration in particular is soulless and he concluded with these remarks at this fundraiser last night. he said the president is the most dishan raonorable presiden history, and he picked the wrong guy to fight with because i'm going to beat him like a drum. >> he also said the president is as close to soulless as you can get in the fundraiser? >> he was talking about his immigration policy specifically there. >> peter, you had the opportunity to watch every minute of the donald trump rally overnight as you were getting ready for the "today" show this morning. he was, as we saw, extremely fired up. and by the way, he's got another

rally tonight in louisiana, perhaps the encore, if you will. >> an important vote of who will be the state's governor there. this hold on. this was remarkable -- perhaps at there point no longer he markable to see the president do something like this. he went for more than an hour and 40 minutes. he attacked on such personal terms, not just joe biden but lisson hunter biden. he also made news in that he went after the somali-american population there in the minnesota, minneapolis community. of course, ilhan omar, the congresswoman from pliminneapol. they have the largest somali immigrant population in the country there. the president ranking as described by the council for islamic american relations

posting a statement, they described it as a, quote, racist rant. they are condemning those words by the president of the united states tonight, this morning. obviously that is striking. given the fact that even as he was launching his campaign, the president was attacking immigrants from mexico and he initially enforced or said he would enforce a ban on muslims trying to enter the united states as well. >> peter alexander, mike memoli, thank you very much. we have more news to bring you. an independent investigative panel is saying the faa did not properly review a key part of boeing's 737 max jet. that's the plane grounded for months. the new report is set to be revealed today with the technical reboard calling for changes in how the faa approves planes for flight in the future. tom, put this in plain english. it seems this is a pretty scathing report from these regulators? >> absolutely. nbc news has reviewed an adva e

advanced copy of this report. it says boeing failed to fully disclose to the faa details about the anti-stall system suspected of contributing to those two fatal crashes overseas, and it says -- listen to this -- the faa did not understand the system, and its engineers may not have even had the expertise to review the system. sources tell me the funds will serve as a serious wake-up call at the faa. at boeing field outside seattle, brand new 737 maxes sit wing tip to wing tip, the worldwide fleet grounded since march as an international investigative group focused on how the faa certified the max before two fatal crashes. today it's expected to conclude that the faa relied too heavily on boeing to self-certify its own planes. congress long ago ordered the faa to work with boeing on certification to save money and time. the new faa chief, steve dixon. >> is it possible that too much authority was delegated to

boeing? >> it's possible. we'll have to see. i haven't made a decision on that yet. i want to make sure i don't have my thumb on the scale. >> reporter: with the max grounded, the southwest airlines pilots union sued boeing for $115 million in lost wages saying boeing's claim was that the max was just like previous 737 models wasn't true. boeing's representations caused southwest pilots to assume that the aircraft was safe. those representations proved to be false. boeing says the suit is without merit. the ntsb has already found that the pilots of the doomed max flights were likely overwhelmed with alerts and alarms, unable to prioritize which to handle first. >> pull up. pull up. >> reporter: crash investigators call it alert overload. boeing used veteran test pilots to determine how they would respond in an emergency. but the ntsb wants everyday

airline pilots from all over the world in simulator testing. boeing is now reviewing that process. >> we want the pilots to make sure that they're focusing on those things that will keep the airplane safe and not those things that will distract you and kill you. >> you do anticipate making changes at the faa certification process? >> i think that's likely. but again, we'll have to see. >> sources tell us the faa is unlikely to approve the max for flight until early december at the earliest. american, southwest and now united all say they're keeping this out of their fleets until january at the earliest. boeing telling nbc news it looks forward to reviewing these findings from the report today. it says this self-certification process has dramatically improved safety over the decades. hallie. >> tom costello, thank you very much for being with us. we have more to get to, including in our next hour, taking you back to capitol hill where you watched live as the former u.s. ambassador to

ukraine walked in, testifying right now behind closed doors. we have details on who might be in the room and how long it will last. we'll be right back with what our sources are saying.l be rig our sources ar e saying ♪ no matter when you retire, ensure you still have income every month of your retirement, guaranteed. see how lincoln can help. we're oscar mayer deli fresh your very first sandwich,m... your mammoth masterpiece. and...whatever this was. because we make our meat with the good of the deli and no artificial preservatives. make every sandwich count with oscar mayer deli fresh. with moderate to severe ulcerative colitis or crohn's, your plans can change in minutes. your head wants to do one thing, but your gut says, "not today." if your current treatment isn't working, ask your doctor about entyvio. entyvio acts specifically in the gi tract to prevent an excess of white blood cells from entering and causing damaging inflammation. entyvio has helped many patients

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he was a senior advisor to secretary of state pompeo. part of his job was sort of to take the temperature of the building, of the rank and file, and morale is very low right now, really because of this ukraine impeachment scandal. the fact he's resigning right now has got to be worrisome for pompeo and for the administration. >> do we know when this resignation is effective, dan? >> supposedly it's today. that's what officials are saying. he's going to be issuing an announcement. whenever you lose a career diplomat like that at a moment of crisis, that's a problem. there's been an exodus of career experienced diplomats out of the state department. >> all of it against a backdrop, as you point out, of the standoff, if you will, between congress, between the trump administration including these diplomats, one of whom arrived today on capitol hill. dan deluce, great to have you on

the show. thanks to all of you for watching this hour of msnbc live. ayman mohyeldin has to work it out in new york. you have a lot on your plate. >> i don't know where we're beginning the show, where we planned earlier this morning and where we are now. we're going to roll with it. >> good look. >> good morning everyone. i'm ayman mohyeldin in for craig melvin at msnbc headquarters in new york. the key players to watch this the ukraine impeachment investigation, right now one is behind closed doors on capitol hill. a second says he is ready to do the same, despite the white house's efforts to try and block both of them. we have a great group of experts and reporters to lay out why their testimony is so critical in all of there. plus president trump in his element in front of a crowd and swiping at his enemies, hitting joe biden the hardest, as you can imagine. today we've got how joe biden is trying to fight back. we're following breaking news in california. thousands of families forced to leav