for the president with the impeachment inquiry into donald trump's efforts to solicit ukrainian interference in the 2020 election. today two associates of rudy giuliani the president's shadow secretary of state when it comes to u.s./ukrainian relations were indicted. the "wall street journal" broke the news and reports, quote, the men were charged with four counts including conspiracy, falsification of records and lying to the fec about their political donations. according to the indictment that outlines a conspiracy to funnel a russian donor's money into u.s. elections. a former law enforcement official pointed out to me, quote, it shows the architect of their shadow foreign policy, rudy, was in bed with two guys who were actively breaking fec law, soliciting foreign money for u.s. campaigns, and lying about everything. sound familiar? end quote. the two men who were charged

today lunched with giuliani at the trump hotel in d.c. yesterday. that's according to the "wall street journal." they're already being compare p. they were arrested last night at dulles airport trying to leave the u.s. with one-way plane tickets and no known plans to return. the "new york times" reports the two indicted giuliani associates, quote, mr. parnas and mr. fruman have acted as emissaries for mr. giuliani as he has sought to uncover information. federal prosecutors spoke out this afternoon about the investigation and left the distinct impression that it could be sprawling and ongoing. >> these allegations are not about some technicality, a civil violation or an error on a form. this investigation is about corrupt behavior. deliberate law-breaking. the fbi takes the obligation to

tackle corruption seriously. >> we will not hesitate to investigate and prosecute those who engage in criminal conduct that draws into question the integrity of our political process. and i want to add that this investigation is continuing. >> on the intersection with the impeachment inquiry both men were scheduled to testify in the house impeachment investigation and have now been subpoenaed. today's indictment also connects the associates of rudy giuliani to efforts to remove the u.s. ambassador to ukraine, marie yovanovitch, an effort that according to the indictment, was, quote, at the request of one or more ukrainian government officials. of course donald trump did eventually order the ambassador's ouster, reportedly because she stood in the way of his efforts to pressure ukraine to investigate biden. her firing is now an essential flashpoint of the ukraine scandal. we should point out that yovanovitch is still as of this

year expected to testify in the impeachment probe tomorrow. that's despite the white house's vow to stonewall that investigation. that is where we start today with some of our favorite reporters and friends. frank figliuzzi former assistant director for counterintelligence at the fbi. "new york times" washington correspondent mike schmidt. former federal prosecutor glenn kirsch ner. and melanie zinona. let me start with you, frank figliuzzi. just go. >> well, when the u.s. attorney himself says the investigation is continuing, the investigation is continuing. when the indictment itself says that this conspiracy involved others known and unknown, there are others that are being investigated and likely may be charged. and i would warn all of these people including rudy giuliani that when i read this indictment and the level of detail and

specificity, i smell not only human informants, but i also smell a wire tap or some form of electronic surveillance. and that means it's going to be very hard for people like rudy giuliani to say i don't know anything, these guys were doing this without my knowledge, i don't get it. there's a congressman named here reportedly pete sessions. he and rudy both should be deeply concerned this afternoon. >> just slush that point out a little more. because you say once the fbi has probable cause to, they were likely listening to them with authorized, legally authorized wire taps. and if rudy is a co-conspirator they would have heard him too. is that your point? >> well, you've taken a logical step forward. i want to be clear that i don't have specific knowledge that there was a wire tap in this event. but i will tell you that typically when you see this

level of detail in the indictment and actual dates, times, quotes, you're looking at a combination of either a human source and/or legally authorized electronic surveillance of these two guys. is it likely then? perhaps that rudy or others would have been captured incidentally on such coverage? you bet. >> mike schmidt, you and your colleagues have reported on the effort that rudy was in the middle of to get the ukrainians to dig up dirt on joe biden. you and your colleagues have all right reported on the whistle-blower complaint that brought all of that to our attention. explain who marie yovanovitch is in that tale. and then take us through where she plays in today's indictments. >> well, she was the ambassador to kiev. and she had been removed, and there are some questions around why that happened. but i think we're sort of missing sort of the larger context here. giuliani was brought on by the

president to help get rid of the mueller investigation and the investigation into michael cohen. >> it was to move public opinion in the president's favor. now what happened was that giuliani was fairly successful. nothing came of those. the president did fine. he was sort of off free. but what happens is, is that giuliani had continued to try and clear the president's name. and with that continued other efforts, which we are learning about in connection with this today that have really undermined the president. so while giuliani really helped him on one hand, on another he kind of dragged the president into another scandal. >> that may end up getting him impeached. i mean, pull that thread a little further for us. this idea that giuliani was running a shadow foreign policy is tied with all sorts of legal exposure for giuliani who was paying him, who was he feeding back into? was pompeo running his ambassador through giuliani?

what are the parts of that story? >> i mean, it's important to know the context of this is that trump and giuliani were trying to -- >> mike, we are going to fix your microphone. i think we just lost you. glenn kirschner, could you pick up that thread for all of the exposure of rudy giuliani for running that campaign that mike schmidt described to i guess in giuliani's mind clear donald trump's name, probably a version of the story that only exists in rudy and donald trump's imagination. but he may have by taking on that effort by running this operation ukraine, he may get him impeached. >> yeah. and i'll tell you, giuliani is probably not going to get a whole lot of shut-eye tonight, nicole. because any time we -- i'm a former federal prosecutor, bring a conspiracy charge like this with multiple co-conspirators. i know the first thing i'm going to do and probably what i'm

going to be doing in combination with my law enforcement agents who have been working this case is to figure out where the weak spots are, what cooperating witnesses can we develop. and, you know, frumen and parnas are probably not going to enjoy being guests of the federal government in manhattan where i suspect they will be detained pending trial. you can bet there will be a full on push to try to get them to flip. and, you know, the natural person that they could flip on, it seems, is rudy giuliani. i couldn't help but chuckle when i saw in they were having lunch yesterday at a trump property with rudy giuliani. and because the take-down was already imminent at that point, i suspect they were under surveillance. i suspect they were perhaps even being listened in on by agents. you don't have a fourth amendment privacy interest in

your conversations in public places. so i agree with frank there was probably also title three wire taps up and running. giuliani may have a world of hurt coming at him as a result. >> mike schmidt, what is our latest understanding? has anyone heard from giuliani today? >> um, i believe we spoken to giuliani a few times today. i don't think we've gotten sort of a clear answer about how he sees this. he's sort of, you know, given us some different responses on different things. and we expect to hear more from him later today. it'll be interesting to see though going forward what his posture is on this. certainly for the president he took this perspective that he was going to throw everything against the wall to make it more confusing and difficult to understand. he did a lot of television. he did a lot of interviews with the press to try and move public opinion. this is a different type of animal. this is not about public

opinion. this is about criminal law. and it'll be, you know, i wait to see whether he rachets back this sort of aggressive nature that he has had that he believes has been very successful for the president. >> frank figliuzzi, i was just handed news that parnas and fruman, the giuliani associates indicted today appeared for their bond hearing. the judge granted their release pending $1 million each in bond. is that a lot? >> uh, they seem to have it. they have access to it. yes, it's a lot. i think that the judge had to weigh the facts that were staring the judge in the face which is these guys were headed to the airport with one-way tickets. so you can argue there's a flight risk and he had to kind of balance this out. so, yeah, i think the amount is a reflection of the gravity of the charges and who these two guys are. >> let's slow this down. there's so much in this. what they were doing as i

understand it -- first of all campaign finance violations, a conspiracy to defraud an electorate, is where donald trump is already an unindicted co-conspirator. he has already identified him in an illegal campaign finance scheme. >> involving his former lawyer. so this would be the second campaign finance conspiracy being prosecuted by sdny? >> yes, it would be. >> and again we have two people working for and with rudy funneling money from a russian. is that a coincidence? >> well, i don't know that it's a coincidence. i think it's one of the things to me that's most intriguing about all this. two of the sort of unknowns in these recent events are who is the source of the funds from russia, should it turn out to be someone like oleg darapaska. >> and rudy never really brought paul manafort out of it. >> but also one of his goals when rudy was digging in ukraine

was to try to clear manafort up. that was sort of the third leg of the stool as for why he was over there. i think the second thing is what was the conversation that rudy had with fruman and parnas before they decided to leave the country. were they wired when that conversation occurred? you know, when frank says rudy better be very careful, he's going to have to make sure that his stories line up with their stories and that it lines up with whatever federal agents heard when they were surveilling this team. i think two of the sort of interesting twin pillars here are on the one hand you have donald trump who still is not passing introduction to crime 101. you know, he picks up the phone himself to call the ukraine. richard nixon didn't walk over to watergate. >> and it was the day after the mueller report that he did that or the mueller hearing. >> the mueller hearing and then sort of the end of all that he digs himself into it the next day. they don't have enough intermaderies between trump.

and then they've got a personal attorney who is a graduate of the u.s. attorney's office in manhattan. who displays at least according by what i'm seeing in this indictment a real level of almost ignorance or a suspension of disbelief about what his former office would do with some of what he was engaged in and what they were seeing. and this is going to come back and haunt both of these men now. >> you know, there is a sense i think among some democrats that there was a sort of failure to launch after the mueller report came out. what do you detect from your sources on capitol hill about the speed with which they have adapted to the fast-moving changing fact-pattern in this scandal? >> it's completely different than what we've seen with the mueller report. with the mueller report they couldn't get information out. and just over the past few weeks think about all the evidence that has come out. we had the transcript of the president's call with ukraine. we've had the damning text messages between those diplomats that came out last week. we've had the whistle-blower

complaint with more whistle-blowers coming forward, and now we have an arrest in connection to the ukraine scandal. and in that indictment it says these associates were trying to influence politicians, they are trying to oust this ambassador, which then we know the president did end up doing. there are a lot of dots that still need to be connected but it is getting harder and harder for the white house to say there is nothing to see here. >> you know, that is an interesting sort of parallel, frank figliuzzi, to the operation that mike described, that rudy ran this sort of fog fch to muddy up the very opaque, very walled off investigation run by bob mueller and his deputies as opposed to this. this is almost like sticking a puppy cam on donald trump and his cohorts and all of their criminal conduct and broadcasting it for the world to see. does that make it easier or harder to investigate and prosecute them? >> well, i think it makes it easier, and, again, i am

impressed with the level of detail we are already getting. and keep in mind in an indictment you are putting in just the information you need to get the charges done. but there's much more to this. and, look, with regard to how this points to the president, the president's either approving rudy giuliani doing this working with these guys. we've got him in a phone call with the ukraine president saying i want you to talk to rudy about investigating biden. or he's looking the other way while rudy goes out and finds mercenaries to do the dirty deeds. i don't know which is worse. but he really can't plead ignorance in this. he can plead stupidity, but he can't plead ignorance. >> you reported at the beginning of the week. any such effort underway? are you picking up that they will seek to block the testimony of marie yovanovitch tomorrow? >> no. but as we have seen they have taken this posture but they are not going to cooperate. so it'd be interesting to see if they would actually let that go

forward. because they have basically said we are not going to help. we are not going to allow anything to go. i think the calculation on their part is basically that cooperating could hand over facts that they think could be bad for them. and not cooperating obstruction is better because it means that less facts will come out and they could sort of ball fall ba that. if they wrap that up into it, what's the difference, they haven't had to disclose new facts. >> that analysis suggests that all of these diplomats if asked how high up did the decision go to trade military aid for dirt on the bidens, that if that were a good story for donald trump or mike pompeo, there'd be cameras in these depositions. it suggests as mike said that the facts are more harmful for them than the image of stonewalling and impeachment

inquiry that now according to fox news poll has majority support from the public. >> yeah. and, you know, let's not forget that when bill taylor began to expressly out some of this information in text messages and sondland said, hey, hey, hey, let's not talk over text, it's been reported that sondland starts communicating with the president. what does that tell us about who's leading the charge about who is really the point person on this dirty deal with ukraine to withhold funds that have been allocated to ukraine for their own protection against russian aggression in exchange for possibly dirt, false dirt, phony dirt on joe biden? it sure seems like it's all working its way up to the president. i just hope, nicole, that we don't get so distracted now about, well, who is fruman and who is parnas, and will giuliani fall or what's going to happen

that we lose track of that transcript. not transcript, summary of that extraordinarily damaging phone call which sort of proves in a self-contained way the high crime and misdemeanor. >> all right, frank figliuzzi, i'll take glenn's note and read to you from that partial transcript released by the white house of donald trump's call of the ukrainian president where he specifically talks about the u.s. ambassador, marie yovanovitch, expected to testify tomorrow. donald trump says this on the july 25th call transcript. the former ambassador from the u.s., the woman? of course he says the woman was bad news and the people she was dealing with in the ukraine were bad news so i just want to let you know that. he later added she is going to go through some things. frank, just pull out for me like taffy the intersection of donald trump's not just greenlighting but perhaps even ordering her removal and the desire by the two indicted men who were fixers

for giuliani now charged with illegal campaign finance violations, also wanting her removed. is that a coincidence in your eyes? >> uh, no. i don't believe in coincidences. and i have to tell you when i hear the line she's going to go through some things, i can't help but recall some mob wires and drug wires where you hear guys saying some harm is going to come to her. that's what it sounds like. and it may have been meaning she is going to get canned. but, look, we've got the president saying to the ukraine president you got to talk to rudy giuliani. we've got reports that giuliani played a significant role in the termination or stepping down of our ambassador to the ukraine. now we have these two guys arrested at dulles airport. they're involved with rudy and trying to investigate biden and they are making payoffs funneling foreign money from a foreign national who appears to

be russian into the united states. so, this is all going to be connected. the dots are there. what i'm intrigued by and i'd be curious to hear glenn and others' opinions on this is the degree to which the attorney general. don't forget he's out there trying to muck up the origins of the special counsel investigation. he's been out there trying to foment that ridiculous notion that this is all about ukraine, that ukraine hacked our election, not russia. and, yet this arrest takes place. so i'm just fascinated by whether or not sdny and fbi briefed barr, we're taking them down now and the degree of this investigation will be allowed to continue. the role of the media and the role of whistle-blowers, when we say we feel helpless when, we say we don't think anything's getting done, we don't know what to do, don't discount the pressure that's placed on somebody like the attorney general when he gets called out

for what he's been doing and when he knows that whistle-blowers won't take it anymore. so that if he shut down the sdny case or said we are not arresting rudy's friends, there would be hell to pay. and i think the media and whistle-blowers have played a role in that. >> all right. we'll let glenn respond on the other side of this break. when we come back, today's high-profile arrests of two rudy associates with ties to ukraine are likely to make the politics of impeachment even more perilous for donald trump as a brand-new fox news poll shows a majority of americans support his impeachment and his removal from office. also ahead as u.s. allies come under attack from turkey, its leader, given the green light by donald trump will go to the region for a live report on the devastating impact of donald trump's abandonment of some of america's closest friends in a very dangerous part of the world. all of that coming up. up. along with support, chantix is proven to help you quit.

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breaking news in the just the last few minutes a new subpoena for rick perry, the latest trump administration official snared in the ukrainian scandal, the man trump tried to blame for the july 25th call at the center of his own impeachment. he's also conveniently expected to resign by the end of next month. that's according to reporting from politico that came just as ukraine scandal began to unfold. everyone is back. it's you and your colleagues who reported on perry's imminent resignation. take us through his role in the scandal. >> he is the latest trump administration official to be subpoenaed. we were just joking who's left that hasn't been subpoenaed at this point. >> they came up with ben carson. [ laughter ] >> so, energy secretary perry

here, he is someone who has asked trump to look into these gas companies in ukraine. so he again is involved in this scandal. he was not asked as far as we know to look into the biden campaign. but he again is part of the scandal. he went to the inauguration in place of pence. remember the president told vice president mike pence not to go to the inauguration earlier this year. perry went in his place instead. and also trump has said on a call last friday with house republicans that it was per aeye's idea to bring this up with the ukrainian president. so maybe trying to place some blame on here, trying to throw him under the bus a little bit. but since then perry has actually taken ownership and said, yeah, i asked them to look into this. >> mike schmidt, secretary perry, just the latest cabinet official to get swept up. we are keeping sort of an unofficial count here. attorney general william barr was named in the whistle-blower

complaint by that call that he released. secretary pompeo squarely in the center of this. mike pence yesterday dodging questions from our own reporter. this seems different from the mueller probe in another way which is that as president he risks ensnaring a whole lot of cabinet officials in this scandal. >> well, i mean, all sorts of aides had to go and meet with mueller and could've been easily, you know, gotten into a lot more trouble if things had gotten worse in the mueller investigation. but i guess what's different here is the interesting thing about perry is he kind of flew under the radar for the first few years of the administration. didn't do a lot of media. you didn't see him out there a lot. he wasn't one of the faces of the white house. ngs that he's been involved in. his contacts with trump. what was trump telling him to do? what did trump say to him about whether ukraine policy had to go through giuliani? what was the impression that the president gave them about the power giuliani had for the work that they were trying to do.

if you take sort of their perspective, these sort of diplomatic perspective of perry, they were trying to assuage trump and giuliani by trying to get ukraine to do the investigations. so what did those conversations look like? obviously perry could shed a whole lot of light on that. my guess is that we'll probably never hear from him though. >> mike schmidt, thank you for spending some time with us. frank figliuzzi, let me ask you to pick up on that thread. those set of questions seem like they could pertain to just about anybody subpoenaed. did donald trump tell you to run through rudy giuliani, whether or not you gave military aid, for example, if you're the pentagon or the secretary of state, did ruth bader ginsburg tell you it was conditioned on dirt on the bidens? i mean, it would seem that if they're innocent of the quid pro quo, which is the trump white house goal post. it's in the necessarily to prove a quid pro quo to be impeached. but even on the question on which they are proclaiming their innocence, it would seem like if

that were a true fact, there would be willingness to put all these witnesses forth to exonerate them. >> yeah. innocent people don't act like this. they don't resist and obstruct like this. i think perry could actually turn out to be a key to get us beyond giuliani. i see a scenario developing, as you set forth, where skrgiulian becomes the scape go. >> it's all his fault. he was out of control. i see perry as being able to tell us why he went to ukraine and not the vice president. what did he talk about with the vice president? what was the brief? why did he have to go? the vice president didn't have a cold or the flu. the vice president didn't go for a reason. and it seems to have been that they wanted it pressure ukraine that you're not getting a vice presidential visit from us until you do what we need you to do. and i think perry could be that guy who says, no, this isn't all about giuliani, the vp and the

president gave me a mandate and a briefing. >> you know, tim, there are -- and i take glenn kirschner's point about not overcomplicating this. this is a bumper sticker scandal. trump mobbed up foreign policy full stop. all these other stories are about people that participated in the conspiracy. and if the way the public was led to understand why mueller didn't charge a conspiracy with russia was because he couldn't suggest or he couldn't prove intent. it would seem that this conspiracy is playing out in full view. this was the brazen version, as you said, melanie, it took place the day after mueller testified. >> well, and i think as various layers of the onion are getting peeled back as we learn more with each day, it has gotten more complex. i think that glenn is right to worry that if it gets so complex, you may -- >> but nothing contradicts that fact deepens. these aren't competing story lines. >> and it's not deepening in random ways. i think the reason perry has been subpoenaed is for very

specific reasons. i think they want to ask him about his conversations with ukraine's president about attempts to get control of ukraine's natural gas company. he's already said that he went there to speak about that. he represented some of his own constituents as possible consultants to the ukraine government. we know that giuliani when he was back there and the months before trump first made that phone call when he was digging for dirt on biden simultaneously parnas and fruman themselves were trying to get a taste of the ukraine natural gas company, the biggest company in the country. >> but can we just stop? how crazy is it that while he was calling and asking for dirt to be manufactured on the bidens, he was involved in corrupting -- >> because the bidens were corrupt and the bidens were feeding at the trough of the state resources, and they themselves -- which they weren't doing, by the way, it was never proven. they were trying to lay a claim on the bidens that they themselves were engaging in, which was a corrupt act. they were using the power of the presidency, the power of their

constituents, the power possibly of perry's office to pressure the ukraine to give them a fema financial incentive to play ball with them. >> can you just weigh in on the profile of sort of a criminal conspiracy that projects onto others exactly what they are doing in realtime? >> yeah. we are seeing all the hallmarks of a conspiracy develop here. but here's the problem. without cooperation, without people coming forward and complying with subpoenas, we are going to have huge gaps, nicole. and that's what concerns me the most. and this can't get to the courts fast enough. the issue of complying with subpoenas. so now we are left with the court system which is fantastic and sdny which is great. but i'm not certain they've got the total picture without somebody coming forward, whether it's perry, which is unlikely,

or others coming forward and telling us where the pieces fit together. there is going to be gaps here. and i don't know how we get to filling those gaps. >> how would you do it if you were prosecuting this case? >> well, it's got to go beyond sdny. and i think it's got to involve the district of columbia. it's got to involve cooperators. that means cutting deals with folks. but we've seen what that looks like with people like manafort who actually lied while they were pretending to cooperate. so this is tough. we've got an a.g., don't forget an a.g. who is going to get briefed on all of this and perhaps tip off the white house as to what's going on. so the likelihood of successful wire taps might be compromised. this is why i keep coming back to impeachment as a moral imperative to send the signal that we aren't going tolerate

this anymore. >> frank figliuzzi, thank you for spending some time with us. after the break, a majority of americans want him removed from office. he's not going to like this. free shipping. you get everything you need for your home at a great price, the way it works best for you, i'll take that. wait honey, no. when you want it. you get a delivery experience you can always count on. you get your perfect find at a price to match, on your own schedule. you get fast and free shipping on the things that make your home feel like you. that's what you get when you've got wayfair. so shop now!

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- ( phone ringing ) - get details on this state program call or visit he can't take into account the interests of the country. he can't take into account the interests of the constitution. he can't take into account his duties. and he puts his self, his own above the country. what i don't understand is you've got all these people clearly shifting uncomfortably in their seats when they're faced with the things that donald trump says and does. it's clear that they are not sure which way to go. if you're not sure which way to go, why not just do the right thing? >> that was a rare interview from george conway raising the million dollar question emerging from the ukraine scandal, what will it take for republicans to get on the right side of

history. a question that must keep a lot of republicans up at night, especially today in the wake of new impeachment polling from trump's favorite network, fox news. it shows a record-breaking 51% of americans support donald trump's impeachment and removal from office. that includes a full 13% of republicans and more than two-thirds of independent voters as well as alarming stats within his own base. 12% of trumpers support impeachment. 38% of rural white voters and 57% of suburban women. the numbers quickly got enter the president's skin because he tweeted an attack on fox news. from the day i announced i was running for president, i have never had a good poll. whoever their pollster is, they suck. [ laughter ] i'm not reading the rest. let's just quit while we're ahead, folks. joining our conversation msnbc

news op ed contributor raol reyes. >> yeah. um. [ laughter ] so presidential. you know, and when you look at these numbers combined with the poll last week from quinnipiac, the further you look down into the numbers, they're even worse among different sub groups like the percentage of african-americans who want donald trump impeached and removed is in the 75 to 80% range for latinos. it's 65 to 68%. and i am just amazed at how quickly the question, just the polling has gone to do you support an impeachment inquiry to, you know, very lightning speed it seems to impeachment and removal. and i think people who are over say what 35, 40, they know, like, that the disruption, that would cause to the country and our political system. so just the idea that so many people so quickly are getting on board with the idea of removal, that is astonishing and i think

what should particularly worry the trump campaign is that 38% of rural whites who are now favoring impeachment and removal. that's a scary number. that's the base. those are the people he needs no matter what who up to now have stuck with him. >> you perplexed by the democrats' handling of the findings in the mueller report, which, you kn i was one of, i don't know, probably a few thousand people who read the whole thing cover to cover. but in hindsight, i see so clearly now why this is such a different endeavor. donald trump committed the crime in a transcript donald trump released. donald trump committed the crime again to give us an audio-visual version on the south lawn of the white house. donald trump is blocking all the witnesses to the crime from going before congress because donald trump is guilty. every piece of evidence that donald trump's white house has put out corroborates a whistle-blower account. >> right. >> not one fact is in dispute. people just have to decide if they want a president who can't

win all on his own and needs to strongarm and manipulate and basically blackmail an enemy of russia to win. >> right. democrats on capitol hill have said all along don't underestimate the ability of donald trump to self-impeach. that is what nancy pelosi said, and that is exactly what happened as we are mentioning the day after the mueller hearing where he felt exonerated is where he picked up the phone and called the ukrainian president. something else democrats have said is when nancy pelosi announces a formal inquiry, the public will follow. and we have seen that in the polling as you said it was remarkable how much it has picked up in such little time because they are seeing the headlines. they are following the lead of the democrats. and, look, those polls from fox news should definitely be alarming. but i do want to point out the one poll republicans always point out is trump's polls with republicans. he is still very popular with the base and his approval ratings actually haven't really changed much from the polling we've seen. it's still hovering in the low 40s. but i think until those numbers

start changing is when we could see a potential jail break in the gop. but until then that's why you haven't seen a lot of republicans come out yet. >> you know, and you knew him and his lawlessness before the country of the first people, you or donny or the rev to say he is not going to change. he is a 70-year-old man. he felt like the election basically was a seal of approval from the american public on everything. and it may not have been the case. what is your sense of what it's like for him right now to sort of wake up and see these polls from fox news? >> well, you know, i always love it when you read his tweets and it makes you laugh. i can watch you do that all day. >> i can't get through any of them though. >> it makes me sad to make you sad because i think we have to also accept the possibility here that trump doesn't get removed from office and then what happens if he gets re-elected, he's gotten through an investigation by a senior

veteran prosecutor. he's got everyone through an impeachment process. he is going to feel liberated to do whatever he wants. >> it's like ebola. nothing will kill him. >> he's a fundamentally lawless and corrupt individual in a very unique way. and he has no remorse or guilt about any of it. he's been doing this his whole life. he's not going to change. he's 73 and he's been this way for 70 years. so i think the question is what does the country do. i think one of the challenges of trump and trumpism and one of the things that's going to outlast his administration is an assault on facts, an assault on institutions, an assault on process and ethics. and if this impeachment ends up with mitch mcconnell in 15 minutes saying we're not going to adjudicate this. i think that's a very likely possibility. trump is going to feel very enabled if he gets into a second term to keep doing what he's been doing all along, which is

to abuse the powers of his office, feather his own nest financially, and divide the country by trafficking and conspiracy theory, racism, and division. >> you know, glenn kirschner, has sort of emerged as a sorkin-esque super hero sounding the alarm bells from the conservative movement. do you think his warnings in this podcast that we aired at the top of this block really is one of the first broadcast interviews he's done about his alarm about trump's conduct. >> you know, it's hard to say because nothing seems to have moved the needle yet, nicole, for the republicans in the senate. i mean, look, when it comes to trump, a cheater's going to cheat because he got away with it in 2016. i mean, he virtually said, hey, russia, if you're listening, help me unfairly win this election. and he hasn't been held

accountable for that. and i'll tell you what i find most curious. i don't want to jump ahead of the narrative. but this move with him pulling us out of syria and letting our allies sort of be led to the slaughter. i was an active duty army officer for more than six years. that is a special kind of sin when you walk away from your allies. that seems to have alienated so many of the republicans in the senate. and you would think the president would be trying to curry favor with them because they're all he's got as far as not being removed, assuming the house votes to impeach him. so, you know, i find his motivation in that, it really doesn't seem to be in his self-interest. there must be something even more dramatic pushing that decision. >> glenn gir aesh enter, it was a perfect setup to our next block. after the break it was only a matter of time donald trump puts in motion tragic consequences for america's closest allies in the fight against isis. we will go to the region for a

live report on the military operation that threatens to upend the war against isis and forever soil the american brand among our allies. that's next. that's next.

it's a stark display of donald trump's impoetence on the world stage. this was his statement yesterday on turkey's launch of a military attack against the kurds in northern syria. trump put this out. quote, the u.s. does not endorse this attack and has made it clear to turkey in this operation is a bad idea. turkey is committed to protecting civilians, protecting religious minorities including christians and ensuring no humanitarian crisis takes place. how did turkey respond to those words from donald trump? oh, here's how they responded by continuing its assault, pelting the region with artillery fire and literally doing nothing donald trump asked them to do. according to turkey defense ministry, by thursday morning it had conducted 181 air strikes in

the area. "washington post" writes it this way. quote, syrian residents thursday described scenes of mayhem as civilians fled clashes on the d agencies warned of a humanitarian crisis, saying that an estimated 450,000 people living within three miles of the syria/turkey border were at risk. this assault on the kurds could have even more frightening consequences as nbc news reports. quote, the military operation would vastly increase the threat to americans from islamic state militant group, which remains intent on attacking the west. that's according to current and former intelligence officials. the immediate concern officials say is what will happen with the 12,000 isis fighters currently being guarded, you guessed it, by the american-backed kurds we just betrayed. let's go to nbc news senior international correspondent, keir simmons, who's near the turkish/syrian border for us. take us there everything we're reading about, but not seeing

like you're seeing. what is happening? >> reporter: nicole, let me put it in terms that your viewers will immediately recognize. what i saw today was the second day of turkey's shock and awe campaign. i saw turkish artillery and planes bombarding the syrian kurdish areas just on the other side of the border. you know, we can wring our hands about how president trump has let down the kurds, america's allies, but the genie is out of the bottle. this now has a momentum. we did see some pushback from the kurds, mortars being fired. they did kill some people here on the turkish side. and actually, one mortar threw right over us, right over our team's head and landed in a field close by, which is a point of which we decided to move away from that place. but that is not the kind of retaliation that is, i think, going to have a huge impact. mortars aren't much against turkish f-16s. and to continue the analogy, i

think the real question comes when turkey properly moves a ground force into the area. they say they've taken 11 villages. that isn't much so far. as we know from history, it's the ground move that really tests the plan of any president. and in this case, president erdogan. >> keir, no country puts in place a military operation like what you just described in a nanosecond. is there any evidence other than the green light from donald trump in that call sunday night that put this calamity in motion, that you're witnessing now? >> reporter: that's such a great question. and you know, i think, i don't know, but i think that what we may be seeing is foreign governments figuring out president trump in a way they haven't been able to over recent years, and at times being able to figure out how to manipulate him. and potentially that's what we just saw turkey manage to do.

this is what turkey wants to achieve. they want to grab this 20-mile-wide stretch all along the syrian border, set up this buffer zone, as they've described it, push a huge number of syrian refugees back into that area, changing the demographic, and at the same time, push the kurds away, who they consider to be the enemy and then describe them as terrorists. the problem is, of course, and inevitably, plans don't run the way that presidents want them to. the problem is that if that all goes wrong, if there is a huge bloodbath, if the kurds really do resist, then what you have is potentially a mess. you have potentially a weakened president erdogan. you have an even more difficult situation in syria. and as you have already pointed out, you have an america that is seen to have let down one of his allies. and of course, we talk about this all the time, nicole, who's one of the president who is benefits from that?

president putin, of course, who has made many mistakes in the world, but one thing he's done very effectively to communicate to other governments that i will always stand by you, to communicate to other forces around the world, i will always stand by you. there's a huge danger for america being perceived in this region to have walked away from an ally, and you can't put that genie back in the bottle, no matter how this turkish enterprise plays out. >> twice you've said this about putting the genie back in the bottle. and my stomach clenches. what i heard from a former senior intelligence official this week is that america can't come back from this. what is the experience, what is the danger of our closest allies in that region, our closest -- the people fighting isis so we don't have to. what's happening to the kurds on the ground, keir? >> reporter: we don't know, honestly. i mean, they are kind of talking a good fight, but what's really happening across the border, it's tricky to perceive. you mentioned the thousands of people fleeing. of course, that's happening,

that's what civilians do in this situation. but, you know, it may be that the mainly kurdish forces that oppose turkish forces are backing away to some extent, recognizing that they simply can't take on the might of the turkish army. but to go back to the analogy that we began with again, you know, these things play out over not just these few days, but over weeks and months and years. and you know, how does turkey hold areas in this part of syria particularly where it's a kurdish majority. and what kind of reaction does it -- it's already getting condemnation around the world. does that condemnation grow louder? particularly if turkey has to be truly brutal in order to get its way. and in a sense, you can picture president erdogan and in many ways, he is backed into a corner already, economically here in turkey, politically weaker than he was. you know, so does erdogan find himself in a corner and having to be more and more oppressive in order to make this a success,

if you like. >> keir simmons, please stay safe, my friend. thank you for spending some time with us. we're going to sneak in our last break. we'll be right back. sneak in ot break. we'll be right back.

i don't know those gentlemen. >> you're in pictures with them. >> i have a picture with them because a picture with everybody. i have a picture with everybody here. but somebody said there may be a picture or something, at a fund-raiser or somewhere. but i have pictures with everybody. >> have you talked to them? >> i don't know if there's anybody i don't have pictures with. i don't know them. i don't know about them, i don't know what they do. i don't know, maybe they were clients of rudy. you would have to ask rudy.

i just don't know. >> oh, well, "ask rudy," that was first reaction from the president to today's breaking news, denying that he knew two giuliani associates we just had up on the screen, the picture of him standing next to one of them. my thanks to raul, tim, and melanie, most of all to you for watching. that does it for hour. i'm nicole wallace. "mtp daily" with chuck todd starts now. welcome to thursday, "meet the press daily," good evening. i'm chuck todd near washington where it's been another wild day of developments where part of the impeachment inquiry is now apparently a criminal case. two of rudy giuliani's associates who were helping him dig up dirt in ukraine for president trump have been arrest