>> this is special coverage of night two of the debate we just witnessed in destroit. before we continue with our friends and family here in the room, i'm told chris matthews has the current mayor of new york alongside him. >> i have bill de blasio with me. there's a real new york city issue. with the police department. castro the former hud secretary. talked about the police officer who had garner in the choke hold. he knew what he was doing. he was killing eric garner. this was his statement about a criminal charge. should he have gotten involved in making an accusation of murder? >> the bottom line is --

>> let's go to the core point. eric garner should be alive. there needs to be justice. there hasn't been for fife years. we'll have justice in new york city. >> getting involved in a criminal matter with your police force. >> he was aiming in the wrong direction. the question is why did the justice department in five years not act. i asked joe biden that question. he deny answer. he was for two and a half years the second most important person in the administration. when they failed and hold for them. they could bring higher charges. i wish he would just answer that straight up. that was a frustration. the vice president had a chance to set the roar straight. >> castro saying ta police officer shouldn't be on the force and you should do something about it. >> we have to understand the due process and i believe it is going to yield justice. i do. it will be very soon.

>> would you question the degree of guilt of police officer. >> something horrible happened it shouldn't have happened. we believe in due process for everyone. it's concluding right now. it will be an answer once and for tall. it will be a fair and just answer. >> do you believe the obama administration was fair and just for the federal government? >> i don't buy the analysis people were attacking the obama administration. we were asking the vice president about his role. >> deportation. normal process of ice. don't they normally perform that role? >> absolutely. the question was did they do too many in the wrong way. it was a valid issue. i think it would have been better if the vice president answered the issue. i don't feel he did. why do we have primaries. we need to sort it out. let's have the fight in the family. and who will be the nominee better be ready for trump.

a low down dirty player. i didn't feel the vice president on several matters was forthcoming. >> do you think it was clear in deciding where the democratic party should go further progressive or left or center left? i thought it was a good balance tonight. was it resolved? should with go with obamacare for life for all? should we go it decriminalization crossing the border and profound progressive decisions or compromise. >> it's a great question. it wasn't resolved. if we don't have a clear progressive message if we're not populous. we'll lose just like we did in 2016. i talk about taxes on the wealthy. i don't know anything that matters more than seeing the wealthy pay their fair share in taxes. that will move people in michigan and ohio and pennsylvania. that's something they can relate to. go to tax the hell.com. >> people know where you stand.

>> all right. the tallest person in the race for president. what you make of na. >> they were attacking -- they spent time doing that. if you're a democratic candidate for president and spend your precious time on the stage attacking the former president. you're not making progress. we have had the two nights now. i think last night we saw a couple of people especially warren. who are very good at explaining policy. command of every detail and good as explaining the impact of policy and everything. i thought we got much less of that. tonight. but we got more of the sizzle. more of the the leadership question that we talk about.

a chance to evaluate the people as potential presidents. and to that end i think joe biden did certainly did much better than the first debate. he didn't seem ancient. he didn't seem out of it. he fumbled a few facts. he said 3 trillion when he meant 30 trillion. biden always did that. he did that when he was a young senator. and he was more fluid in his discourse. and he got in a couple of good zingers and so i think it was a all in all a good night for him. even though he spent it under attack. >> it's in the nature of the democratic party to be self-critical because it is

always trying to move forward on social policy. which the republican party is not. always thinking of social policy from new angles and always trying to move forward on social sensitivity. on issues leek racism and feminism. so if for example, marriage equality had come up tonight, and someone pointed out obama was once opposed to marriage equality. i would not taek that as an attack on obama. i would take it as an expression of the way thinking in the democratic party is constantly moving forward. you can look back two years and four years and say i think we should do it this way instead of that way. and i now want to do it this way. because we did it that way. castro said something about learning from the mistakes. he was part of in the past. and i think there's an easy over reaction to the idea that obama

is being attacked. i don't think he felt like he was. he knows what that is. they did lose focus once again on donald trump. not in the closing statement. which is interesting. the opening statements kp closing are the two things they prepared. they have a minute for each. in those things they never attacked anybody else in the stage. but in the cnn design of game show of i'm going to raise something that this one said two years ago. and get you to fight with that person. they fell into it. they didn't step above it. most of them. most of the time. and that is a formatt mistake. that they really should have thought through. and once again the proof that there is not now and hasn't been for a long time, anyone who you would call a leader of the democratic party. if the democratic party had a leader, after last night, the ten people tonight would have

all been sat in the room tonight and they would have said remember you're running against trump and remember that one of these people at least one is going to be on the ticket. that you'll be either on or campaigning for. and don't say anything that makes it difficult for you to campaign for this ticket when you have to campaign for the ticket. that discipline wasn't there. i don't think any of them crossed that line. john delaney can campaign for tukt. they can still campaign for the ticket or join the ticket. they're not at the spot. they're veering towards it. without the concentration on trump. >> something else you're allowed to bring in note papers. you can take notes. during the course of the debate. you can't bring in your phone. gabbard enbarked on a multi-count specific attack on kamala harris. that means she came in from the

wings. with that fresh and over the course of the evening or several minutes, put down those points in her handwriting. to then be able to refer to them during the attack on kamala harris. just so you know, the forethought that has to go into a multi-prong attack on one of your fellow democrats. with that, to steve on the battle. some have put it for the heart and soul of the party going forward. >> the question you're talking about it. one of the questions raised by the what you saw tonight how much room is there room for democrats to be critical of obama in this primary. especially trying to take down joe biden. we can put some numbers. first of all this is probably won't surprise you. among democrats, obama is as close to universally popular as you can find. 97% favorable rating.

3% unfavorable. let's stipulate there are no democrats out there who do not have a very high opinion of obama personal le. that said, this is where there's a challenge for some of the candidates who want to go after his record and the biden record. it's this. ask this question. this is a recent poll about a month ago. of democratic voters. do you want to return the country the way it was under obama pretrump or advance a more progressive agenda than under obama. there's about an everyone split. 53% say a more progressive agenda. than under obama. there's room in some ways to say he had had the best of intentions. he did the best with what he could have had. the administration fell short or with circumstances fell short. there maybe a way for the democratic candidates to do it. we talk in particular importance

of african american voerts on this question. the opinion is different. return the country to the way it was. close to 60% of african american democrats saying yes. we have talked about this too. who is joe biden strongest with among democratics? black voters. >> do you want to win in 2020 or die trying. much more on that later. tonight we did see a little bit of history from the stage. first mention of a specific household cleaning product. it came from the senator from new york. gillibrand. here it is. >> the first thing i will do when i'm president is clor ox the oval office. >> huge response from the audience. it's on the board. the senator standing by. >> why would you want to bleach the white house? >> i was talking about the oval office. >> that's because?

say it. there's something unclean about the president. >> yes. he's degrading. not just the country. degrading the democracy. >> let's talk about the vice president and his record. tonight it was like everyone was jumping on this one guy. that was coming and there it was. you were talking about him and your dislike for him or critique was new. because you campaigned together in syracuse. then somebody jumped on your side. i think it was cory. >> kamala. >> and said he also change pd his position on hyde. amendment. talk about that. what's fair play for the vice president? >> the reason why i brought up this op-ed he wrote is because he said stark words. that increasing the ability for middle class women to work outside the home would lead to the deterioration of the family. and said that they were avoiding responsibility. and i worked outside the home as

a member of congress. i had my second son. for good affordable day care i couldn't have done that job. is he saying i'm a bad mother? that's not good for my community? or i'm somehow avoiding responsibility or harming the family? the reason why it's relevant today. >> i personally know how good you are. you're racing home for your kids after work. i'm amazed at what you do. you serve and raise the money for president. deal with the family. accept the responsibility of being the main breadwinner and care giver. it's all true. >> the reason why i brought it up. president trump degrades and devalues women. particularly of color every day. our nominees -- not just to the families and communities. which they are. also to our economy and the workplace. most women have to work. four out of ten are working are the primary wage earners.

i wanted him to explain what he meant. if he doesn't believe it now. fine. >> he did say about people who made over 100,000. >> his bill was 30,000. >> he didn't want to have a -- it's not about the money. it's about the value statement. a woman working outside the home was not responsible. sfwl. >> your point was you should still get the break on taxes. >> or not say you're not for it. >> he was old school. >> and so far out of touch for what america's women need today. they need a champion. for equal pay and national paid leave. a champion to value them and i just want to give him the opportunity to tell us whether he still believed that. that was really stark language to me. >> good research. >> thank you so much.

>> thank you. obviously the skrum moved on between the two of them. i don't know who walked in the spin room. someone big obviously. looking forward to this next conversation. this man is beyond a never trumper. he's among the best known michiganers alive today. with us from michigan. the documentary film maker. michael moor. knowing you were coming on today i have been so curious as to what you made of the last two nights. i don't know if you heard, i said a national democrat said tonight having watched this attack on the front runner, i hope they know what they're doing. >> yeah, i watched and listened and i have listened over the last 24 hours. let me say in the midwest, and i

don't think people understand. a lot of democrats don't understand a lot of people in the leadership don't understand. this isn't 1980. this discussion of reagan democrats and the sort of working class, you talk about the working class like it's lunch bucket joe. the working class the majority if the country are women. you you're talking about young people. 18 to 35. they make the least amount of money. you talk about working class talking about people of color. they make the least amount of money. that's who the working class is. somehow when we have the discussions on the shows, we talk about well we have to not get too far to the left. or get progressive. we'll lose the white working class vote. well, i don't know maybe that was true 30 years ago. it's not true. nearly 70% of the elect or the next year eligible voters in the

country 70% are going to be women, people of color, or young people between ages of 18 and 35. or combination of the three. that is america. in 2019. 2020. not this kind of conversation we're having about how we better stay moderate. we don't want to lose who? two-thirds of the white men who voted for trump. news later. they're not coming. news alert. some will come. trump got 8 million people who voted for obama. once or twice. voted for trump. there's a chance. maybe a million of them. might come back. guess what, trump only won by 77,000 votes combined votes between wisconsin, michigan and pennsylvania. we don't need a million. we need 77,000. i think we can find them with that 70% majority. all the public opinion polls show and i watched steve.

i have studied him. >> he's smiling. >> the proof is there. that the majority of americans support a raise in the minimum wage. the majority of americans believe in the equal rights amendment for women. against mass incarceration. do not want to put people in prison pr marijuana. the whole list of issues the majority of americans take the lob ral progressive position. they will come out if they're inspired to vote. for the candidate that's going to side with them. this discussion that we're having seems to be less about that. and more about the mythical voter that we don't want to lose in the democratic party. they have been lost. we can get some of them back. we don't really need them. a ann richard i met her.

the former governor of texas. the fact that is rarely repeated. no democrat other than twice since world war ii. only twice has the democrat who ran for president and won got the white male vote. twice. one with johnson in 64. a year after kennedy fts killed and clinton's second election. so that means john f. kennedy lost the white male vote. clinton lost in the first election. barack lost it both times. let's stop talking about getting this middle class in midwestern middle america. quit talking about it like it it's like. we have to get the middle americans in the field of dreams in the corn field. it's not that anymore. the working class is women. people of color. and young people.

and this whole discussion about they're not attacking obama. i think warren staid. the good thing about liberals and democrats is this self-analysis and willing to be critical to improve ourselves. if you're going back to obama in 2008, since 2008 that's ten almost eleven years ago. when he won. since that moment, nearly 40 million people went from being 17 years old to 18. four million every year become adults become voters. you have 40 million people in this ten to eleven year period who weren't voters at that time. but became voters during those years from then until now. they don't know what you're talking about when you talk about this michigan reagan democrat. all this stuff. i remember my parents friends talking about it.

waxing and coolage. we were like what? be quiet the beatles are on ed sullivan. let's get young people, women and people of color. for one-third of the white guys who voted for hilary. last time. good on you. come on back and bring a couple buld dis. who mistakeingly voted for trump. that's all we have to do. the worst thing to do is moderate to go to the center. and to think that's how we'll win. this is how we'll lose. if we don't run a street fighter somebody who will inspire people to come out and vote. we're going to lose again. i think nobody listened last time when i said this, that trump was going to win. michigan and wisconsin and pennsylvania. and i don't want to say it out load. i don't want it to happen. people watching this now know it

already did happen once. it can happen again. it will happen again if we don't run a beloved american. not an inside the belt way type person but somebody a street fighter and fight for that 70% majority. that's going to take us back into the white house. >> okay. that's where we have you. because to the audience michael moor will stay with us. and yes, i'm thinking what you're thinking. do you have a name for us? don't say it now. i'm coming back at you. right after this. castro standing by with chris matthews. >> thank you. congressman, secretary. let me talk about your main argument. people come to the country. talk about that. that came up in another way

today. book it seemed like he was saying the republicans say do it based on merit. immigration. opposed to people comes from this hemisphere. what's your value on that. you pushed for that beyond your candidacy to putting it in the platform in 2020. that we decriminalize boerd crossing? >> that's the right thing to do. what i said tonight is that look, one of us learned the lesson of the past. and some of those lessons are that you can't deport your way to the negotiating table with mitch mcconnell and the republicans. doesn't matter how cruel you are or how many you deport these right-wingers, that's never going to be enough for them. we can't wait like we did in '09 and 2010 for immigration reform. and if we want to guarantee that little children will no longer be separated from their parents we need to repeal that law. now, it was also pointed out that look, that doesn't mean that if somebody crosses the border there aren't

consequences. there still are legal consequences. that's a civil action. >> to be blunt about it, if you crossed the border under your provision, getting rid of that criminal code, what would happen if you crossed into the united states illegally without documentation? what would happen under civil law? >> what happens right now for a lot of folks is you're still part of a court process. >> can you be picked up? >> of course. picked up, processed. i would not -- >> can you be arrested? >> i would -- yeah, you're held. you know, and processed. however, i would end this detention and those children in the detention centers i would find them a loving home because a lot of them have family members who are already here and there are sponsors that also take some in. i would put my resources there instead of these terrible detention facilities where people are sleeping on the floors, with no toothbrush, no soap, oftentimes they're hungry. but this is part of a bigger plan too. right? look, we have to do a 21st century marshall plan for

central america so that people can -- >> what about vice president biden? is he culpable for those deportations under the obama administration? >> well, he never answered the question. you know? he didn't answer the question did he ever speak to the president, did he ever say anything during that time when i was mayor of san antonio i was critical about that in 2014 and before that. and during the administration i had those conversations. when i got to the administration was after they had done daca and as they were doing daca the administration was getting better and deportations were glowing down. but the vice president was never clear about any role he had to play there. >> you made a very interesting point. i just want to end with this. you said the attempt to convince mitch mcconnell this past administration was serious about illegal immigration, they deported a lot people and that was supposed to show their good faith. right? and you said that didn't work with mcconnell. >> that's right. you can't deport your way to the negotiating table. and if i'm president i'm going

to immediately move to reform our immigration laws, to fix our broken legal immigration system and the rest. >> and you want it in the platform. >> i do of course. >> thank you so much. mr. secretary, thank you for joining us. thank you. brian? >> chris matthews thanks. we've got a lot to do here. we're going to take a break to do it. our live continuous coverage continues right on the other side. here, it all starts with a simple...

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there was nothing done for the entire eight years he was mayor. there was nothing done to deal with the police department that was corrupt. why did you announce in the first day a zero tolerance policy of stop and frisk and hire giuliani's guy in 2007 when i was trying to get rid of the crack cocaine -- >> mr. vice president, there's a saying in my community. you're dipping into kool-aid and

you don't even know the flavor. you need to come to the city 6 of newark and see the reforms we put in place. the new jersey aclu has said that i embraced reforms not just in action but in deed. sir, you are trying to shift the view from what you created. there are people right now in prison for life for drug offenses because you stood up and used that tough on crime phony rhetoric that got a lot of people elected but destroyed communities like mine. this isn't about the past, sir. this is about the present right now. >> it was that kind of night for joe biden. he had some outgoing shells loaded but he took more incoming fire from his nine colleagues on the stage. steve kornacki has some numbers of note before we go back to in no particular order chris matthews and michael moore and members of our panel. steve? >> yeah, i wanted to follow up on that conversation you were having in the last block there.

because this strategic debate that's going on in the democratic party right now, how to win in 2020, how to beat trump, do you go after the sort of reagan democrats that michael moore was talking about, do you not go after them, do you go after this group, we have some numbers here i think can add some context to this. one takeaway on this is multiple things can be true at the same time. and here's what i mean. look at it this way. this is one of the most recent polls that actually shows joe biden leading donald trump nationally not just leading him, leading him by ten points. now take a look at where biden -- one of the reasons biden's able to do that. these are white voters with no degree, white college non-voters. biden's losing by double digits. almost certain certainly if biden's nominated he's going to lose this group of voters by double digits. and what michael moore is saying is absolutely right. that's basically true of any democrat running for the foreseeable future. but here's the key. you don't have to win white voters with no degree to win the election. you just don't have to do as bad as democrats did in 2016.

this 39% that joe biden is registering with non-college whites, when barack obama won he was in the mid to high 30s. hillary clinton was in the high 20s. the difference between being in the high 20s and the high 30s with non-college white could be the difference between winning and logs an election. i'll go one further. you noticed non-college white men. no way is this going to be a democratic constituency in 2020. biden losing by nearly 20 points. but again, when barack obama was re-elected his number with this group was 33%. very close to what you're seeing biden get here. in 2016 hillary clinton's number, 23%. so again, you can lose and you can get blown out with these two groups of voters here. that's going to be true of any democrat. but there are a lot of voters who still fit this criteria. and if you just don't lose as badly as democrats did in 2016 that can make all the difference in those three states. >> thank you, steve kornacki. we'll get reaction from among others michael moore and the former member of the u.s. senate

sitting beside me in just a moment. but first to chris matthews. and chris, i say this. van jones in the pregame show on cnn tonight went all in, went heavy for your next guest. >> thank you. well, that's cnn, isn't it? let me go to andrew yang here. you know, i've followed politics a long time, and you're not the new kid on the block when it comes to ideas. george mcgovern was going to give people $1,000 a year. you're going to give 1,000 a month. how do you differ? because it didn't work. >> i agree with you this idea's been with us for a long time. it was championed in the '70s. it passed the u.s. house of representatives twice under nixon. and alaska's had a dividend in effect for almost 40 years and they love it. >> how is the family assistance plan? >> yeah, the family assistance plan and the petroleum dividend in alaska. and what i'm saying to the american people is technology's the oil of the 21st century and what they're doing for the people of alaska with oil money

we can do for everyone in the country with technology money. >> but that's royalty money, basically. that's sharing the royalty, the mineral wealth of alaska. what are we sharing with the $1,000? >> in many places we're sharing our own data. but if you give the american people a tiny slice of every facebook ad, every google search, every amazon sale, and every robot truck model eventually we can generate hundreds of billions of dollars to create a dividend for ourselves. and in the absence of this kind of move more and more americans are going to get left behind because artificial intelligence -- >> why not 10k a month? i'm being serious. it's an attractive idea to get something, especially when you don't understand any chance of making money in this society except minimum wage. of course people would like 1,000 a month, that's 12k a year. why not 24 a year? >> it's right below the u.s. poverty line. it's not going to distort labor markets because people are going to still want to work and need to work but it's going to be enough to be a game changer for

millions of american families. and tough two adults in a household it would be enough that maybe one of you ends up staying home with a child or some other form of work. to me $1,000 a month is a sweet spot. but it's an economy that's going to have to work for us in the 21st century. >> if you can't win this nomination, can't win this presidential election and you're an underdog, would you like to see that in the platform? >> oh, yeah. >> in other words, that would be your legacy. >> if i could help eradicate poverty in this country, which is completely unnecessary by the numbers. >> thank you. >> we're a 20 trillion -- >> everybody understands when you stand. it's very well done. thank you so much. >> it's great to be here. >> back to you, brian. a candidate who was understood as much as the guy who used to say the rent's too damn high. 1,000 a month is very recognizable. >> and i remember mcgovern before that. chris matthews, andrew yang. we're not supposed to mention was not wearing a tie to a debate tonight.

so joy, a lot has transpired since last we spoke. we should air some of our laundry to the audience. joy has to host starting at -- >> 12-something. >> 12-something a.m. so we're going to lose joy for preparation for her broadcast. before we do i wanted to hear you out on all that's transpired. >> just a couple of things. i think on the question of president obama i was saying sort of to steve kornacki on the other side -- >> we all do. >> i don't think joe biden gave a masterful performance tonight but i think because he was sentient, because he defended himself and the record under president obama -- now, his previous record i can't speak for, the crime bill, et cetera, hurts him long term, especially with younger black voters. i think with older african-americans who are his base. i think people will double down on him. >> you heard a moment that explains this. >> yeah. i think when he was having this debate with kamala harris after jake tapper set up this kamala versus biden food fight at the top of the debate, as he was defending the affordable care

act what i heard was let's save and protect obamacare and add the public option, which i think for his base, for african-americans, old african-americans is going to sound like a defense of president obama. it was odd he didn't use obama's name because he usually uses it so much. i think that was one thing. i think the second thing is this tension between progressives and kind of the more middle of the party really has been there since president obama was there. there was a lot of that tension over a lot of his policies including over health care. i mean, there was a point at which democrats were very much against the affordable care act because it wasn't medicare for all. this debate is happening, it's kind of been a pent-up debate since president obama was there that's spilling out. but again, i think for the person that is running against donald trump the job in my view is not to prove that you have a slightly better health care idea than kamala harris or elizabeth warren. it's going to be to demonstrate to the public, as michael moore said, to the people who are

troubled by donald trump, just how much of a system failure this presidency has been for them. just how much donald trump has failed them. how much he's failed to do anything for them he's done for the super wealthy, and to tell people how much he's failed them and what you're going to do to make things better. that's your job. and so i think it's great for democrats to have this debate. i think lawrence is absolutely right. this debate is not necessarily an attack on president obama. but obama isn't the point. and i hope at some points democrats get to the point, which is that the man in the white house is their opponent and they're going to have to convince people that he is enough of a threat to their own future that they need to line up in and 77,500 more of them need to vote in those three states. >> joy reid, who is one half of the harvard wing of the -- >> oh, the mud slinging has begun. >> how she is able to speak that way and prepare for a broadcast. thank you for being here. chris matthews joined by the

former mayor of the city the locals spell as n-o-r-k, newark, new jersey. >> and a rhodes scholar. >> and a jersey boy. >> thank you. you said something that mystified me tonight. you said basically this fight over health care is very non-helpful. you thought the differences are not important. not important enough to fight over. >> well, first of all i think the differences are very important. we have a savagely broken system. as i said, we're going to be spending 20% of our gdp on health care, which means that one out of every five dollars spent in our economy is going to be spent on a broken system and we -- >> what was your point about the fight? you said we shouldn't be fighting. >> well, i'm saying that we shouldn't fall into the republican trap of trying to divide us against each other in a way that's not constructive or productive. everybody feels an urgency in in our party, not theirs. theirs is the party trying to take away health care. they literally have a legal case in texas right now that cannot only take away affordable care

act but deny people preexisting conditions. let's focus on we need find common cause when it comes to driving to our goal that i hope most americans believe in, that in this country health care -- >> much like kamala harris, your colleague in the senate, you went from let's not have a food fight to jumping the vice president. >> no. >> you both did the same thing. you softened him up and then you jumped him. okay. now, you said a legitimate issue, deportation. you said you can't marry obama basically, mr. vice president, without defending his deportation decision. his record. did he defend it today? did he get back to what he did in terms of counseling the president at the time? >> i think he needs to speak more candidly about his record, and i'm sure he'll have opportunities and will be called upon that because there are a lot of people, a lost folks who really felt that some of the problems in the immigration system could have been dealt with a much, much better way. he's going to have to answer for his record. that's what we're all -- >> julian castro pointed out i

thought ons honestly tonight and very intelligently, sophisticatedly. he said what they were trying to do -- and you remember this, what obama and biden were trying to do is say okay, democrats aren't trusted on stopping illegal entry into the country so, we're going to show that we're serious so that we can get a deal. and he said it didn't work. >> i think what we saw with deportations going radically up was the wrong way to deal with the problem, and i think -- >> they were trying to do it to show they were making a good effort to the republicans, right? that's why they did it. >> i don't know what their reasons were. i just know it wasn't the right way to go. and i know frankly looking -- having been in the senate, and remember i got there right after a bipartisan deal which senator bennett was right to take credit for. of eight came together and found a way forward. there was a deal in the senate that passed. it couldn't get through the house. what we're seeing from this president is tantamount to moral vandalism and actually making us less safe. >> let's talk about safe.

back in new york in the '80s it was tough. there was problems. you could go in the subway and smelt pee to be blunt about it. it was a big police property in new york. there was no law and order. people didn't want to walk around the streets of new york at night. wasn't that what happened in terms of this tough criminalization, this tough incarceration policy to get tough? wasn't that a reflection of the times? and now we have better times in the street. new york's a safe city in many ways. >> there's nothing that can justify taking someone and saying you have two drug crimes, you get a third you're going to die in prison. >> how about a pusher? why do we want to be light on a pusher? >> let me tell you. >> drug pushing is what gets people hooked. >> yeah, but a life sentence? for selling drugs? >> addiction can be a life sentence. >> but look who's targeted. >> pushers were targeted. >> no, sir, they were -- sir, there's no difference between blacks and whites for selling drugs. did you know that? but the overall majority, if you're black and doing it you're almost four times more likely.

the guys selling drugs at stanford they don't get sting operations, don't get incarcerated. now literally two of the last three presidents admitted to doing not marijuana, serious drugs. and they got to be presidents of the united states because they're people of privilege. but you have kids right now wallowing in prison for doing things the last two of the three presidents admitted. and why? because they're poor and because they're black and brown. these criminal -- >> and biden should be judged on that today? >> i think that when you brag all the way up to 2015, call these bills your bills, he said, his words, not mine, every crime bill major and minor since 1970s has had my name on it -- now, by the way, i think he should call out that he was wrong. but he hasn't even done that. he hasn't admitted from three strikes you're out to -- >> if he doesn't believe he's wrong should he be even considered for president? >> i don't think at a time that we have a republican and democratic consensus -- i partnered with mike lee saying these sentences are dead wrong. if the vice president of the united states can't say i was

wrong on stuff that now represented in a bill that i got passed in the united states senate to start reversing the damage that is a serious problem and he will have a tough time -- >> last question. you're a man of compassion. how long can you stay in this race before you have to decide to run for re-election? >> i can do both. new jersey passed -- >> you can do both. >> i can do both. >> you're going to do that? >> well, i hope that actually i won't have to because i will be the nominee of this party. >> thank you. >> thank you very much. >> i've been arguing you've been underestimated. so we'll see -- >> did i show that tonight? >> i think you showed something really good. don't ask me. brian, i'm being asked to be a -- >> you're the pundit here. >> chris matthews. i couldn't help but notice michael bennet off your shoulder. chris has nominees stacked up like jets over laguardia. a break for us. and when we come back, robert costa will join us. michael moore is still sitting in traverse city, michigan. he owes us a nominee. and we have other friends, relatives and guests standing

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mr. president, this is america. and we are strong and great because of this diversity, mr. president. not in spite of it, mr. president. so mr. president, let's get something straight.

we love it. we are not leaving it. we are here to stay. and we're certainly not going to leave it to you. >> joe biden. his closing argument tonight, which mirrored the statement he delivered on videotape from his delaware home when he got into this race. you know how social media loves drinking games. if you had malarkey tonight, you did well. if you had "here's the deal," you had at least six or seven sips of your favorite beverage. but enough of that. robert costa happens to be standing by for us. he also happens to be national political reporter for the "washington post," moderator of "washington week" on pbs, and we're proud to say a frequent guest on "the 11th hour" around here. so bob, if you're in the biden camp, other than saying what the hell just happened. what's your response to tonight?

>> checking in with top sources close to vice president biden, top democratic donors in the country had one question heading into tonight's debate. would biden survive? every other rival coming at him on the iraq war vote. on trade. could he emerge unscathed? he did battered and bruised but he survived. the texts coming in he is carrying on. he embraced the obama mantle and remains for now the front runner. >> democrats secure in their title of maintaining the world's largest circular firing squad? >> you see candidates saying biden is vulnerable. booker had a strong night. they expect him to get a bump. he played the role harris played in the first round. the biden foil. really challenging mr. biden on

his criminal justice record. and the 1994 crime bill. >> bob, over night i said at the start of the broadcast. social media has a funny way of leveling out and finding its own favorite. there's no consequences of course. it can be someone from the political margin. often someone actually at the end of the stage. miss williamson had a moment when we woke up this morning. do you think there will be such a moment for a guy other than one of mention we haven't heard his voice tonight. on this broadcast. that's jay inslee. >> jay inslee has a candidacy that's founded on the challenge of climate change. his collage now is a politician is can he expand his appeal. he's going to the core democratic voter and saying the field isn't talking about climate change enough and comes from a different part of the country.

like bennett and klobuchar. not from the coast. he's from washington. not the east coast or california. you have him trying to mount a critique of his own party in the focus on climate change. it's a crowded space. mayor de blasio trying to come in and be the group on the left along with warren and sanders to compete. and be the progressive favorite. >> always such a pleasure. having you ask your reporting after an event like this. thank you for maging the effort to join us. and we note that we have a new friend at the table. joining lt conversation. chief public affairs officer for move on and alum of the obama campaign and white house. join me in looking up at the monitor and so you see wheal share this, inslee is miked up and ready fo go on. to say you are the only thing standing between our audience and jay inslee.

as an alumni of the obama years it must have been shocking to hear him under attack tonight. at a democratic event. >> last night we saw a debate on policy. tonight what we saw was the candidates using the prime time debate stage to unload their opposition book. research book on each other. and they did not prosecute the case against donald trump enough. or at all. it was odd at times to hear president obama was being more attacked than trump. i just don't think that strategy will work. president obama is the most popular politician probably in the world. as well as michelle obama. exactly. so here's the thing. what we're going to see the folks at the top tier will not move much. middle tier won't move much. lower tier probably saw the last

time on the debate stage tonight. they won't make it to houston and make the criteria of polling and funding. ip don't think the debate is going to change much. i don't think we'll see much movement in polling until september. until the narrowing of the field happens. the september debate and closer to the iowa caucus. >> if unless told otherwise. let's go to chris in the spin room. with former governor inslee. >> thank you. i thought it was amazing a couple of things you did. you took on biden. he was getting hit from every direction. you hit him from a sweet direction. iraq war. you were in the house at the time. what your feeling about people who supported the war in iraq? >> listen, this is a judgment. i have judgment to understand there was monkey business going on with george bush. and i listened to the vice president. >> did you believe the crap they were selling.

>> this was a plot to drag us into a war. and it should have been obvious to anyone. i was one of the first -- >> do you believe biden said it was about weapon of mass destruction? it was never about that. >> here's what i don't understand. he said i only sort of voted for inspectors. everyone knew george bush wanted a war. >> he pulled out the inspectors. >> i don't understand the explanation. and this is an important issue now. >> is he lying? >> no, i don't. >> why did he support the war. public pressure? contributor? >> when the war drums are beating, when terrorism is creating great fear, and you have a master manipulator like dick cheney willing to say anything kp lie. >> he lied. nuclear we weres. >> weapons. >> it's difficult to stand

against that. >> cory booker used a bad word tonight. you said we have a white nationalist in the white house. explain. >> yes. this is a president who has built his political fortune on white nationalism. that is a strong statement. you have to go back to the beginning of his entire political existence. a lie appealing to white nationalists about obama not being born in the united states. this is a guy who has done this every single day of his career. there's nowhere to conclusion you can make. what i'm really disappointed about is all the republicans who look themselves in the mirror and haven't called out trump. thars disgusting chlts. >> you're great. high points tonight. >> i appreciate it. >> thank you. a break for us. we'll crown the top of the hour

when we come back. three minutes fl resuming our conversation with michael moor. he owes us an answer.

we all use our phones differently. i can manage the time they spend on their phone,

who they're texting with, all of that. it's a win for all of us. (vo) the network more people rely on, gives you more. like plans families can mix and match, including the new just kids plan. that's verizon. >> we all watched his testimony, i read the record, there are ten clear incidents of obstruction of justice by this president and he needs to be held accountable. >> if mitch mcconnell is the one that lets him off the hook, we'll be able to say, well, sure, they impeached him in the house, but his friend mitch let him off the hook. >> i want to make sure whatever we do doesn't end up with an acquittal by mitch mcconnell in the senate, which it should bely would, and president trump would be running, saying that he had been acquitted by the united states congress. >> we're now into midnight

thursday morning. our post-debate coverage continues. welcome back to it. steve kornacki is at the big board. steve, you are a man of numbers. i'll name one i thought we were going to hear. 179. that is the number of federal judges this president has had confirmed under the watchful eye of majority leader mitch mcconnell. >> yeah, look, they stayed away from that, and another thing they stayed away from, too, we've had two sets of debates right now, and i think there's one match-up that just about everybody watching these would like to see now, and that's elizabeth warren on the same stage with joe biden. you've talked about how a lot of candidates are probably not going to make the cut for the next debate, so, that match-up is probably coming in the next debate. and just one thing to keep an eye on, they could not represent more polar opposite constituencies right now within the democratic party. here's what i mean. take a look at joe biden's

support. let's just go right along the ideological spectrum. most recent polling among folks that call themselves very lib ram. biden is running at 21%. work our way back towards the center of the spectrum. liberal, jumps up to 29%. folks that are slightly liberal, biden's into the 30s. folks that call themselves moderates, a third, a quarter to a third of the democratic party, there's joe biden running at 41%. so, his support basically doubles as you move to the middle of the spectrum. he's probably going to end up on the stage with elizabeth warren, we'll see how that works out. elizabeth warren, she is getting blown out by 32 points among moderate voters compared to biden. work your way to the left, she's leading him when it comes to very liberal voters. this is -- what a match-up. you saw the issues that were raised.

you saw biden tonight when it came to medicare for all, going at it on the stage. you saw warren last night going at it on the stage on that question. what happens when those two candidates finally meet each other on the stage and these two coalitions go at each other? that's what i'm looking forward to coming out of these two nights. >> steve, thank you. back out to traverse city, michigan, michael moore has been waiting for us to return to him. michael, you have two tasks. comment on the tom friedman theory to democrats, you say you want a revolution, that's great. if you want to win this presidential election, that's something entirely. second question to you is, you owe us a name. a nominee. a winning person, who you promised. >> all right, talking about tom friedman's a waste of time, so, i'll move onto the second part, with all due respect, of course. because actually only a revolution, at this point, is going to defeat donald j. trump. only people rising up and doing

the work that needs to be done is going to remove him from office. our side needs to treat trump seriously. he's not a joke anymore. he's the real deal. and he humiliated all of us by losing the election and then being given the keys to the oval office. i don't know how to do that. if i wanted to do that right now, i wouldn't -- how would i go about losing and then having the white house? to answer the second part of your question, the democrats, to win, i mean, i have my three-point plan if you want to hear it. the dnc won't listen to it, but maybe you will, brian. >> i know it involves ballot niche tichs in all the states. >> it does. it does. and i so appreciate you having me on, though you mentioned you have the two harvard people there with joy and lawrence. msnbc, the whole night, is all ivy league -- >> i'm university of missouri. >> i'm a noncollege white.

>> that's what i was going to say. >> university of michigan, michael. >> yes, yes, i know -- yes, but only brian and i are the ones with a high school education, because brian doesn't have a degree. >> thank you for pointing that out. >> and neither do i. yes, but you are good company. you're with me, all right? >> just a couple of older noncollege whites. >> that -- yes. you did go to community college, brookdale community college. >> well, bless you for that, yes. and for everyone that ever tried to attend, thank you. >> yes, i am the -- i am the trump demographic, i'm an angry white guy over the age of 50 with a high school education. so -- here's how -- here's how to defeat trump. number one, people turned out in record numbers last november to put the democrats back in the house. if they don't do anything, if they don't make it worth the while of all the people that sat it out in '16 but came in '18 to vote, they may not show up next year, so, the democrats have to

do something and what they have to do is, they have to impeach this president. they can't sit around and say, oh, yeah, but why should we do that, you know end the senate isn't going to have a trial -- well, as i said on seth meyers last week, the detroit tigers don't get to say, we don't want to go to new york and play the yankees, we're just going to lose. no, you have to go to new york and play the yankees. and the house has to do its job, so that there's a historical record. that's number one. number two. ballot initiatives. as you said, this is how we did it in michigan in november. we -- we got a ballot proposal passed to legalize marijuana, that doubled the youth vote from the last off-year election and we had a ballot initiative that passed that made it illegal to gerrymander or to do voter suppression. that brought out a large african-american community -- at the voting booth, so -- we then, that caused michigan to go back into the blue category, all four top offices in the state capital, governor, lieutenant

governor, attorney general and secretary of state are all democrats now. and we removed two republicans in suburban detroit, white suburban detroit and replaced them with two democratic women. so, that's what we have to do this time. in the swing states, you must have ballot proposals to bring out the base. raise the minimum wage, pass the equal rights amendment for women, the ones we did in michigan. free college. all those things are going to bring out the base if you have them as ballot proposals. and number three, we have to have a candidate who is beloved by the american people and who is outside the political inner circle, somebody who is not a po politician, somebody who is going to win. in my humble opinion, four of these candidates running could beat trump. bernie, biden, kamala harris and elizabeth warren. they could beat him. but hillary beat him. it's not enough just to beat trump. the only way to remove trump is to crush trump. and that's the question that has

to be asked. who can crush trump? who is the street fighter? we saw it in bernie last night. who is the street fighter that can crush trump? and frankly, i think there's a person that could do this, if the election were held today, there is one person that would crush trump -- and she hasn't announced yet. and her last name rhymes with obama. in fact, it is obama. michelle obama. everybody watching this right now knows she is a beloved american and she would go in there and she would beat him, she would beat him in the debates, he wouldn't be able to bully her, he wouldn't be able to nickname her and she is beloved, all -- just go to c-span and follow her book tour across the country. she's playing 15,000-seat arenas in the midwest. they have to turn people away. she takes the stage and she's so powerful and so good. you just look at that and you think, of course, she could win. but everyone's now saying, well, of course she's not going to run.

well, has anyone asked her? i think -- if she were asked -- look. we're sorry about this, we have to come back to you, you have to go back to the white house. your country needs up. if asked to serve, i believe she would serve. if you were asked to serve or i were, whatever our skill set is, wouldn't we do that? i think she would do that. i think they would win, she would crush him. it has to be a crush, though, not just beat him. we are going to lose this if we run the same way we did last time. god bless hillary. the democrat next year is going to beat him by 5 million popular votes and could still lose the electoral college. we have to make sure that doesn't happen. >> michael moore, a guy who went on bill maher's show, notably, famously, rather shaken and said he thought the election might be going the other way. and so, as a result, when

michael moore speaks about such things, more people than usual listen. michael, thank you very much for coming on. we really appreciate you joining us. >> thank you for hearing my voice. and thank you. >> all right, karine, let's remember in the former first lady, you get complimentary degrees from princeton and harvard law school. >> right, true. >> so, more schooling and more life experience than would be average. >> yeah but michelle obama's not going to run for president. i think she basically has said that multiple times. >> and she's been asked. >> and she's been asked multiple times. >> senator, you seem very confident in that. >> i'm very confident in that. >> she's not going to do that. look, i -- she is beloved, michael moore is absolutely right. she would be a fantastic president, but this is not her role to play. she does not want it. and it's not going to happen. >> i think there's polling showing she is the most admired person -- >> yep. >> period. >> period. >> in the world. >> not among first ladies -- >> in the world. >> period.

and he's right about the 15,000-seat -- her book tour was just amazing. >> in fact, the president is under an immense amount of pressure, because his book's coming out and, you know, now -- >> president obama. >> yes. president obama. not president trump. president obama is under immense amount of pressure because his book tour is coming and i think there might be a little family thing there, who is going to outperform on the book tour, because michelle has set the bar very high. >> very high. >> senator, i have to say, all this talk, it's been a good little bit since we last spoke here in front of all of friends, all this talk about working class, midwesterners, the path forward for your party. how does your party do it? because tonight, for those who are worried about solidarity and singling from the same him nall, is not a good look. >> well, we have to remember, we have a unifying force that is more powerful than any unifying force the democratic party has

ever had. donald trump. we've never had a unifying force like that. so, while it makes me nervous and makes me want to turn down the volume when they are going after each other, i do think we'll be okay. i think it is interesting, the health care dilemma. i get what michael moore is saying, but margins matter. when i won the u.s. senate seat in missouri, i lost rural missouri by 120,000 votes. when i lost it, i lost by 400,000 votes. and hillary lost rural missouri by 700,000 votes. and a lot of those people are working people. they are -- they are white women, they are not, i mean, the thing about rural america now is a lot of the people are no longer working on farms. >> right. >> they're doing small businesses, because the farms have been so concentrated with all the large agri-business conglomerates. so, i think you have to do it all. we have to make sure that we are

talking about health care in a way that seems realistic to people. going after pharmaceutical companies, one thing i really noticed tonight, nobody mentioned pre-existing conditions. that was the number one issue in 2018 -- >> when somebody said, 100 million people with pre-existing conditions, was vice president biden. >> but that was the number one issue. all those seats we won in those suburban areas, it was about protection for pre-existing conditions. that's what obamacare gave this country. and joe biden probably needs to turn up the heat a little bit on being the protector and the defender of obamacare, but adding that public option. that's where we're going to get to the sweep spot. >> when you say the party has to do both things, i mean, it does have to try to appeal to those obama/trump voters. but it really has to get the base out. i mean, it has to -- >> no question.

>> boost african-american turnout in milwaukee, detroit, philadelphia in the last election, by, you know, 77,000 votes. >> yeah. >> that happened in missouri, too. >> to win. so that -- you've got to get that obama coalition excited again. >> lawrence, let me put this to you in the form of a question but let me sharpen it on the way in, and that is, talk about what michael moore just talked about and the path back for the democrats, but also, what is sometimes chris matthews' withering criticism of this party in that it is to nantucket, it is to l.a. and bethesda, it's too coastal. and so, tonight shouldn't be the first mention of long haul truck drivers in a democratic debate in a good long while, but it was. take out -- take out their role in the u.s. economy and it's a disaster. >> well, long haul truck drivers

are the people who need a guaranteed health care system for them. >> yep. >> their employment is so erratic. the benefits that they get vary from company to company. a lot of them don't work for companies, a lot of them are independents. and so, those are exactly the type of people that are going to want to listen to what you have to say about what can you guarantee me? what can you guarantee me between jobs? and so, the democrats are speaking to that. if you look at the polling on issues, the democratic party's list of issues that they are most concerned about have majority support, significant majority support, right across the board. and so, i know, you know, it's an easy thing to say, that these candidates aren't speaking to iowa or they're not speaking to -- well, it -- they may not be speaking directly in language that is tailored to those localities, but they are talking about issues that work there, as well as california and new york.

i mean, california is our biggest agricultural state. you don't get to be a senator from california and not know an awful lot about agriculture. we haven't even heard kamala harris talk about that for a moment. she can, when that day comes, and i'm sure she does when she's in iowa. so, i don't worry about the democrats eye agenda. i have to say, having sat through more senate hearings than i can remember, more senate floor debates than i can remember, what i saw tonight was just what i would call a democratic senate debate. that's the range of opinion within the democratic party, and that, by the way, is how obamacare got passed. there were 100 democrats in the house of representatives who said, i cannot vote for the public option in obamacare, and that's why it's not in there. and the liberal from san francisco, nancy pelosi, ripped it out in order to get those votes, make it happen and, so, that's the range of opinion in

the democratic party. and so, now the range includes variations on medicare for all. along with obamacare-plus. and that's just normal democratic party debating. it's -- >> it's good stuff. >> let's talk about, for a moment, the state of michigan. it is many things. it is a beautiful state, it is a state that was part of the thriving economic engine of this country. michigan lifted so many families into the american middle class by a good union wage making the cars that filled our brand new interstate highway system. michigan has fallen on some hard times in the industrialized corridors. among those cities, flint, michigan, which, sadly, spent way too much time in the national spotlight because of a crisis over water cleanliness. it was said again in last night's debate, it wouldn't happen in grosspoint, the very swish suburb of detroit, but it

happened in flint, michigan. so, we think more than most about the folks in flint, michigan. our own tremain lee spent time tonight at a watch party with folks in flint, michigan. tremain, good evening. welcome, thank you for your work and tell us what you learned. >> thank you very much, brian. i was listening to the conversation about the idea of the coast and appealing to mid western hard-working voters, and so many people here in flint, i feel like they have been forgotten and overlooked, but they are hard-working people who understand better than most the confluence of politics, race and poverty. and while they feel good that there are a big number of democrats coming out to make the case on why they should be president, they are simply tired of hearing the talk, they want action. take a listen to some of the things some of these folks had to say. >> right now, i don't think that anything is going really in depth enough to really push

people one way or another. right now, i think politics for the last five years has just been just flash and bang. we're not trying to educate the populous or the voters. >> i keep hearing the media say joe biden, joe biden, but i don't think they're coming to our community, because i haven't -- i respect that he was the vice president under president obama, but i wasn't really aware of that criminal justice. >> i'm hearing them kind of, you know, pick at each other, you know, on trying to prove points that really don't matter, just to make somebody look bad, you know, try to demonize your opponent, that's the oldest trick in the book. i like yang. i haven't heard him, tonight was my first night, but he stood out the most to me, because he was know what he was talking about and he wasn't just talking. booker, i liked booker. >> these are thoughtful, these are thoughtful, practical, pragmatic voters who more than anything want these people, these democratic candidates, to

cut to the chase. i'm really just getting to the meat of the issues that concern them. it's nice to be in detroit, but when you come to a community like flint, and one gentleman said, you know what, health care is important, education is important, but if my belly isn't full and my children are still hungry, what good is any of it, right? it's easy to talk about white working class voters, but there are black people all across this country, you talk about industry being the bedrock of the middle class, let's not forget what michigan did to draw folks from the south, fleeing the violence and racism and inadequate opportunities in the jim crow south to places like michigan, so much of that has faded away, but the people here want someone to address their concerns and so far, few candidates, they say, are addressing those concerns. >> trymaine lee, very thoughtful. the people of flint, michigan,

have something else, as well. they have been lied to by their government, while we all watched, in public, famously, to their health detriment over these last few years. so, they have reason and cause to ask more questions than usual about the folks lined up in front of them wanting their votes. another break for us. when we come back, chris matthews and kamala harris. >> the policies of this administration have been facilitated by laws on the books that allow them to be incarcerated as those they've committed crimes. these chur children have not committed crimes and should not be treated like criminals.

welcome back. we've officially reached the shank of the evening. 12:24 a.m. eastern time on this second of two detroit debate nights. all along, chris matthews has been asking the candidates to join him.

he now has the junior senator from california, chris matthews with kamala harris. >> let me ask you about the hyde amendment. you believe vice president biden changed his position for political reasons? >> i mean, i don't know what else to think. he accused kirsten gill will brand, he accuses others of changing their opinion because they're running for office, and on the issue -- he can't -- he can't call for somebody one thing and then not admit to the other. and the fact is that on the issue of the hyde amendment, for decades he took one position and now running this time for president -- >> you believe he's pro choice? >> if he says he is, i believe him, but i also know his track record on the issue of the hyde amendment, which was what? it was about denying and restricting access for poor women to have reproductive health care. and also, in the case of rape and incest and i personally prosecuted those cases. >> is this a character issue for

you? >> it's an issue of where do you stand on a basic issue about women's health, and, you know, especially at this date and time, in 2019, where we have states, state legislatures like alabama and georgia, possibly, and missouri, passing legislation that will essentially deny women access to reproductive health, we need to have a president what the unambiguous in their support for a women to have access. it's one thing to say pro choice, it's another thing to support laws that actually don't allow women to have access to reproductive choice. >> you've had some fundamental differences with the former vice president. how do you resolve these in terms of a party platform? platforms still matter. >> oh, i agree. >> how do you do that? >> we're all going to come together. i have no question about that.

and, because there is no question to me that our common values are so much more strong than those issues that might divide us. and one thing i am certain of is that the democrats on this stage are united in knowing that donald trump must be defeated. and that he is not in the best interest of our nation, the security of our nation or the progress of our nation. >> is he a racist? >> yes, he is. >> define that. >> well, let's look at his conduct. he has been -- and consistently, from day one, making statements that are about, you know, s-hole countries, speaking of african nations, speaking of places like baltimore where communities of color live and basically suggesting that no human would or should live there. speaking of women of color who are serving in the united states congress and telling them to go back where they came from. one of his first acts as president was to pass a muslim ban targeting people based on

their faith. and on and on and on. there is no question -- speaking that people are equal on both sides? and here is the thing, chris. he has used the power of the office of the president of the united states to use this kind of language. it's one thing if you're talking about somebody on the schoolyard. it's another thing when you're talking about the president of the united states. the microphone that is held by the president of the united states must always be used in a way that is about lifting people up and finding the commonalities between us and talking about that and encouraging americans, to see those things we have in common. instead of what he has done, which is continually try to sow hate and division among us. it is making us weak. it will make us weak as we go forward, unless we get this guy out of office. i plan to be the next president of the united states and i'm going to tell you how i'll use that microphone. it will be about lifting people

up and saying, hey, guys, the vast majority of us have so much more in common than what separates us and that is the strength of who we are as a nation. >> you spoke in the last debate about being 6 years old. a lot of people can remember few things when they're that young. do you feel that he's one of those voices on the schoolyard? is he like those kids that were troubling on race? >> well, he's -- look, he's a bully and he picks on people he believes to be vulnerable. he picks on people that he perceives to be weak. he picks on people who are in need of help, often desperate for help. and those are all signs of not only somebody who is a bully, but somebody who is a coward, especially when in this same person he's constantly embracing the so-called strongmen. so, instead of believing and trusting in the american intelligence community, he prefers to rely on the word of

the russian president on the fact of russia's interference in the election of the president of the united states, instead of relying on the american intelligence community on the issue of an american student who was tortured and later died, he prefers to take the word of a north korean dictator, instead of trusting the american intelligence community on a journalist that was assassinated, he takes the word of a saudi prince. >> people use that godzilla number on you and comes up looming behind you during a presidential debate and you felt his presence behind you, what would you do? >> stay tuned. >> thank you. >> keep watching. >> chris matthews with kamala harris, whose last instruction, keep watching, we pass along to you. and again, to prove our theory that if you want to seem smarter, ask a whole bunch of smart people to sit really close to you around a table. our thanks to our friends here at the table.

eugene robinson, claire mccaskill, karine jean-pierre, lawrence o'donnell, along with steve kornacki, chris matthews, trymaine lee, robert costa, michael moore. there are other, but too little time. our thanks to all. thank you so much for joining us. joy reed now picks up our live coverage of tonight's democratic debate. joy, take it away. >> thank you, brian. please do get some sleep. >> we will. >> all right, thank you. and good evening, i am joy reed. it was fight night in detroit. the second democratic debate was full of pointed attacks from the ten candidates on stage. almost no one escaped unscathed, but the biggest targets were the front-runners, former vice president joe biden and senator kamala harris. here is how the evening started. >> go easy on me, kid. >> you good? >> doing good. >> but the gloves came off right after that, as joe biden accused kamala harris of peddling double talk on the central campaign issue on health care, and harris defending her new health care plan.

>> senator's had several plans so far, and any time someone items you you're going to get something good in ten years, you should wonder why it takes ten years. this is the single most important issue facing the public. and to be very blunt and to be very straightforward, you can't be beat trump with double talk on this plan. >> vice president biden, you are just simply inaccurate in what you are describing. the reality is that our plan will bring health care to all americans under a medicare for all system. your plan, by contrast, leaves out almost 10 million americans. so, i think that you should really think about what you're saying, but be reflective and understand that the people of america want access to health care. >> the attacks did not stop there. joe biden came prepared to defend his record this time around and to go on offense. biden took some swings at senator cory booker on criminal justice reform and booker hit

back. >> in 2007, you became mayor and you had a police department that was -- you went out and you hired rudy giuliani's guy and engaged in stop and frisk. you had 75% of those stops reviewed as illegal. >> mr. vice president, there's a saying in my community, you're dipping into kool-aid and you don't even know the flavor. you need to come to the city of newark and see the reforms we put in place. the new jersey head of the aclu said i embraced reforms, not just in action, but in deed. sir, you are trying to shift the view from what you created. >> some of the most striking and potentially damaging attacks on the front-runners came from the candidates who had the least to lose. those polling at the bottom of the pack. >> senator harris says she's proud of her record as a prosecutor and that she'll be a prosecutor president, but i'm deeply concerned about this record. there are too many examples to cite, but she put over 1,500 people in jail for marijuana violations and then latched about it when she was asked if she smoked marijuana. >> as elected attorney general

of california, i did the work of significantly reforming the criminal justice system of a state of 40 million people, which became a national model for the work that needs to be done. and i am proud of that work. >> he wrote an op-ed was that he believed that women working outside the home would, quote, create the deterioration of family. i just want to know what he meant when he said that. >> that was a long time ago, and here's what it was about. it would have given people making today $100,000 a year a tax break for child care. i did not want that. i wanted the child care to go to people making less than $100,000. >> leading off our discussion tonight, our jason johns and jonathan alter. tiffany cross, cofounder and managing editor of "the beat d.c. "and david jollie. okay, jason, your thoughts on the debate tonight.

>> like i said, it was -- it was a photo negative of last night. last night, the two front-runners basically teamed up, mr. and mrs. smith and beat down everybody else. tonight, the two front-runners really fumbled and gave a lot of second-tier candidates the opportunities to take pot shots. cory booker looks like the coolest guy on the stage. joe biden gave that to him. tulsi gabbard, who is polling lower than donald trump in her own liberal state, got in the best hits on kamala harris. i think this was a failure of the two front-runners to establish themselves. castro, booker and kirsten jilly brand got like tonight. >> and interesting she got in those hits without ever being asked about syria. the only thing people know about her, other than the russian media really likes her -- they didn't ask her anything. nothing relevant to her. jonathan, your thoughts?

>> so, in primary politics, expectations are absolutely critical and we're going to see that even more when the voting begins. so, what happened tonight is the bar was really low for joe biden and he got over it. he showed up and he's still standing. he's not on the canvas. >> that's really low. >> he showed up more than actual actually literally showing up. he didn't do anything tonight to jeopardize his position as the front-runner. that doesn't mean he's on his way to the nomination, but he's still the front-runner. the status quo holds. in the reverse, kamala harris has the sky high expectations after she won the last debate -- she didn't perform that well. so, her stock is not plummeting, but it's stable or headed down. and booker, nobody was expecting anything of him, so, when he had a good night, he's up. >> interesting. all right, miss tiffany. >> well -- i think, look, for

the smart people sitting around this table, that, you know, maybe we think the two quote unquote front-runners fumbled, but i think if we look at this as the average american who is consuming the minutia of this stuff every day and this is the first time getting to know these candidates, when you have the wonky conversations on health care, the exchange between senator harris and biden on that, yeah, we can pick that apart, but for the average person that doesn't really know that, it really looked like she understand her policy, she was ready for her punches and she was hitting back. i do think your point, jason -- >> i didn't record this. >> it's being recorded, don't worry. >> i do think, yeah, that there were some moments where kamala harris -- she had to know that she was going to get attacked on her prosecutorial record and i don't think she's ever really been prepared to tell that narrative, quite honestly.

the american people have a short attention span. the voting electorate will forgive you. they just need you to bring them along and tell them a story. chef hasn't done that yet. unfortunately, the person who threw the punch is a bad puncher. you're going to take a hard pass on assad's cheerleading squad who is going to question your record on anything. it was a fair message, it was coming from the wrong mes sjenger. >> kamala harris hit her in a post-interview, as being an apologist for assad, it would have been good to do it on stage. but no one did it. >> she's at 0%. >> i know, punching way down. >> we love to do our wwrd, what would republicans do, but republicans do politics really were. you were a republican. >> i was. >> from your point of view, who did well? >> for purposes tonight, i'm going to vote against donald trump, so, i'm not -- >> you're already persuaded. >> yeah, i already am.

i had a very different take on this. they were each playing to different expectations coming out of miami, right? joe biden had to establish that he could throw some punches. he came ready with opposition research, he came ready, frankly, on policy. he credited some of his peers up there on the difference between immigrants seeking asylum and those are who actually come without an asylum claim. he corrected a policy there. but generally speaking, what i saw -- last night, we saw this debate over progressivism and moderate, i made the point here, it's a proguessive party, go all in, it's a progressive party. tonight, what we saw, because everybody came playing to higher expectations, they had their opposition research, they were taking swings, i saw fighters up there. i actually left encouraged. i know a lot of democrats are saying, oh, it was a circular firing squad, yes, but we needed to see them in the moment be able to go toe to toe, because what i saw tonight were candidates that could take on donald trump. >> okay. but you -- you saw that, like you said, you're persuaded. i didn't hear people taking on donald trump. what i was waiting for was a message from these candidates about why donald trump should not be president -- this is a

re-elect. and so, you have to hit the incumbent. very few people did that. >> i think joe biden did that best. when he said, look, four years is an anomaly. eight years of this guy, our country is screwed. i thought, this is -- this is actually one of the best arguments that any democrat can make. we can't let this guy on. >> that's right. >> if you think this is a problem, i'm the one that can solve it. if i can't do it, certainly no one else on this stage can. >> kamala harris, in her closing remarks, was outstanding, as well. can you make that argument when the debate you're actually having is the minutia of your particular health care plan. >> this was my problem with both of these debates, is that it was like they were arguing about stuff that's not really very relevant to the viewers. >> prompted, by the way, by the way the questions were done. >> yes. a lot of viewers are republicans and independents. they needed to prosecute trump in these debates, show who brings the best chops to

actually summarize the case against trump. except at the very end, in their summations, they weren't doing. that they were off on these tangents. they weren't on job one. >> i think they were operating from the perspective that most of the people in the democratic base and even -- they know what a travesty this is -- >> that's the wrong assumption. >> for people who are still on the fence about that, that's not who they should waste their time going after. they should talk about policies and speak to the american people, not to the people who are like -- it depends on who they put up. i might still vote for trump. >> the number one thing, the data always shows, is democrats want the person that can beat donald trump. >> right. >> nobody watching tonight needed to be convinced that donald trump needs to be beaten. they didn't have to see -- >> but you do need to -- i disagree in a sense. >> who is the best prosecuting attorney? >> yes. >> my point is, you can only take on the people you are on stage with to demonstrate your chops and your ability to go toe to toe with somebody like donald

trump. i think we saw a lot of candidates tonight that proved they could do that. >> i completely agree. i saw four people tonight, shockingly. you never would have thought cory booker, carlton banks -- >> why he got to be carlton banks? >> i'm just saying. he did it. he was great at it. we knew that harris could do it, we knew joe biden could do it. the democrats demonstrated tonight, there's greater depth here than we thought of the number of people who can prosecute this case. >> let me play one sound bite. this is sound bite one, let's see if we have time to play it. this is biden hitting harris on her health care plan. >> this idea is a bunch of mularkey, what we're talking about here. the fact of the matter is -- the fact of the matter is that there will be a deductible, it will be a deductible in their paycheck. bernie acknowledges it. $30 trillion has to ultimately be paid, and i don't know what math you do in new york, i don't know what math you do in

california, but i tell you, that's a lot of money. and there will be a deductible, the deductible will be all of your paycheck. >> maybe it's a benefit that basically joe biden previewed what the republican message is going to be about any of the democrats if they want medicare for all, flight because that is going to be the argument, it's going to be out of your paycheck, $30 trillion, we don't know if that's the right number, but that will stick with people, that amount of money. >> it will, but in a climate where republicans have lost all conviction and credible on fiscal responsibility, so, the notion of how things get paid for really doesn't matter. look, the next democratic president will have an opportunity and i believe can secure a public option. and as the party -- go ahead and adopt medicare for all. that's where the party wants to go. i'm not suggesting that i would give advice to where the heart and soul of the party is, but in terms of the raw politics, except the incrementalism of saying, a public option is next, and that's what we're going to do. and credit to bernie and elizabeth warren who were saying this years ago, that is now very viable politically.

you can win voters -- >> public option, but -- >> that's biden's idea. >> everybody's for a public option, but the idea of medicare for all, getting rid of private insurance, think about, in your area of florida, like, a retired union worker who has got great health care from -- >> a retired union worker in his demographic is a republican. our panelists are staying with us. >> none of them are going to vote for the democrat. >> coming up, president obama was mentioned a lot tonight. one of the former president's top campaign advisers joins me next.

the person that's ebb joying this debate most right now is donald trump, as we pit democrats against each other while he is working right now to take away american's health care.

this pitting against progressives against moderates saying one is unrealistic and the other doesn't care enough, that, to me, is dividing our party and demoralizing us in the face of the real enemy here. >> that was a bit of a clarifying moment in a debate with a lot of back and forth between the candidates. i'm joined now by someone with some experience running a democratic presidential campaign, jim messina is the ceo of the messina group and he was the deputy chief of staff for president obama from 2009 to 2011 and campaign manager for president obama in 2012. jim, good to talk to you, man. so, let's get your assessment of the debate. did you see anybody out there that had the kind of magic that your former bossman did? >> yeah, look, i think you saw a few good things. cory booker had a very big night, i thought. i thought the vice president did what he needed to do, which was a little more sturdy of a performance and sit on his lead. and then i think you saw kamala harris for the first time kind of take some friendly fire and, you know, and get to see what a real front-runner sort of feels

like. so, i thought it was an interesting night. i don't think any of the other candidates really moved here, with the possible exception of julian castro, who probably booked his night into a second debate. >> so, let's talk about biden for just a moment, because, you know, the benefit of biden, obviously, is that he was president obama's vice president, which has a lot of voters sort of adhere to him because of that. the downside of biden is that unlike barack obama, when he ran for president, he has a very, very, very lengthy record to pick apart in the case of president obama, you know, he was attacked for his thin record, but they also didn't have anything on him, so, they started making stuff up, like he was born in another country. is biden hamstrung by people being able to go back and find a 1980 op-ed he wrote about marriage or the crime bill, which was another thing he got hit on tonight? >> no, i don't think he's hamstrung. it just makes it even more important that he continues to lay out a vision of where he wants to take the country.

and, you know, stay on the offense here and not just be on the defense. let's be very clear. if you look at his numbers right now, he has the two things that every democrat would want, which is support of older democratic voters, who we know are going to vote, and he's getting over 50% of the african-american vote. so, he's going to stay very close to president obama in his legacy to keep the latter and very focused on an economic vision to keep the former. now, everyone's got to come get him. he's just got to hold what he's got while everyone else has to come get him. >> let's talk about kamala harris real quick. i remember, a couple years ago people saying she was the next barack obama. she had the x-factor that barack obama had in a lot of ways. she took a lot of hits, and it was set up by the moderator, who decided to make them fight, you know, from the time the bell rang, but how do you think she did? >> yeah, the moderator basically threw red meat in there and say, let's have a fight. she was clearly the winner of the first debate. everyone sort of coming back. the vice president was not going

to let her do what she did the first time. she got some friendly fire from tulsi and other folks, as well. and i think was a little unsteady. i think she took a couple shots and didn't seem to be as good as i've seen her in the past. that said, if you just play the electoral map out, i think she's clearly going to be one of the two, three, four people that are going to be in this thingthe whole way. i think the map sents up very well for her and i continue to think she'll have momentum, it just wasn't her best night. >> let's play the moment when tulsi gabbard hit her. take a listen. >> you got a little bit of a taste tonight of what it's like to be a front-runner with people on either side of you coming after you. were you surprised to find your record in california as much of a target as it was, particularly from congresswoman gabbard? >> listen, of course, you said it. being a front-runner means that you're going to take incoming from everybody who is trying to make the next debate stage, but you know, as it relates to congresswoman gabbard, you know, it's -- that criticism is coming

from someone who has been an apologist for assad, who is a human rights abuser and by all accounts a war criminal. she has been an apologist for he who has exterminated the people of his country, like they cockroaches, she refuses to call him a war criminal. so, you know, i can only take so seriously the criticism coming from her, because frankly, her perspective on many issues is in question. >> so, that was actually harris talking with our reporter after the debate. should she have done that right at the time she was being hit by tulsi gabbard? >> absolutely. that would have been a great moment. moment she had to know was coming from somebody, and especially tulsi, because tulsi had been kind of telegraphing it for the last week. and so, that would have been an amazing moment in that debate. it would have kind of, you know, been the kind of counterpunch a front-runner has to do. you saw the vice president be ready for a couple of the attacks that were coming

tonight, in a way that he wasn't the first time. and she'll figure this out, you know, president obama said to me in 2008, you know, took him almost a year to figure out how to really run for president. it is seriously hard, and these debates are difficult. and so, she'll figure it out. i don't think she had a bad night by any stretch of the imagination. and i continue to think she's a front runner. but i watched both that interview and i watched the interview with chris matthews and she was so much better afterwards, and she'll figure it out. >> yeah, and lastly, cory booker and julian castro, they had two good debates apiece. what would you advise to them? >> i thought cory had the great night. he's the happy warrior that i always thought he could be. he found his ground tonight. he seemed much more comfortable. he seemed positive, when folks are going back and forth and showing a little bit of anger, he just kept that smile on his face, and, you know, a little bit of a shades of obama.

not in the same class, but you know, clearly was going for that, and i think did that really well. julian had his second good debate, and he's so close to qualifying for the next round, and you've heard me say this before, if you're not on the september stage, you are out of this presidential race. you will have no oxygen. your money will dry up and you'll be gone. so, he had to have a big night tonight. and i think he might have had the night he needed to get to both of the hurdles he needs to get into the houston debate. >> yeah, and i'm quite sure a lot of people would like to see that next debate allow elizabeth warren and joe biden to be on the same stage. i think that would be, you know, and fewer other people around, you know, maybe six instead of 20. jim, thank you very much. really appreciate you. coming up, our coverage continues at the top of the hour with a big look at who came out on top. >> this president always likes to take credit, like he did this. we've now had about 105 straight months of positive job grout, the longest streak in american

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♪ hello. i'm joy reid. welcome to the post debate coverage of the second night of the democratic debates in detroit, michigan in a night of big attacks, one of the targets wasn't anyone on stage. of course, it wasn't donald trump. the attacks started right out of the gate from one of the front runners, vice president joe biden. >> and mr. president, this is america. and we are strong and great because of this diversity, mr. president.

not -- not in spite of it, mr. president. so mr. president, let's get something straight. we love it. we are not leaving it. we are here to stay and we're certainly not going to leave it to you. >> i mean, it was donald trump. even as the candidates had contentious arguments over race, nearly every candidate was in agreement on the president's stance on race in america. >> first of all, the president's racist rhetoric should be enough grounds for everybody in this country to vote him out of office. that one thing alone should be enough. >> the president is a racist. and that was just one more example of it. we know that whether it's baltimore or cities like detroit, they have their tremendously rich in history and culture and also in possibility. >> we can no longer allow a white nationalist to be in the white house, number one and number tw -- number two, we have

to make america what it's always been, a place of refuge. >> senator kamala harris, senator cory booker and normer hud secretary julian castro agreed there was plenty of evidence to pursue impeachment proceedings against trump. >> i believe that we in the united states congress should start impeachment proceedings immediately. the politics of this be damned. when we look back in history at what happened when had a president of the united states started acing more like a authoritarian leader, the question is what we will we have done. >> we watched the testimony. i read the report. there are ten clear incidents of obstruction of justice by this president and he needs to be held accountable. i've seen people go to prison for far less. >> there are ten different instances where this president obstructed justice or taechted to obstruct justice. i believe they should go forward with impeachment proceedings. >> the debate started with an

attack on president trump and ended with one courtesy of senator harris. >> we have a predator living in the white house. i'm going to tell you something, donald trump has predatory nature and predatory instincts. and the thing about predators is this. by their very nature, they prey on people they perceive to be weak. they prey on people they perceive to be vulnerable. they prey on people who are in need of help, often desperate for help. and predators are cowards. >> joining our discussion now are jason johnson, root.org and professor of politics, jonathan alter, columnist for "the daily beast" and analyst, tiffany cross, manager of the beat d.c., david jolly, a little and nissan maria your bina. you watched from the debate

hall, maria. how did it get over? did you get a sense from the people you watched with that donald trump was given enough of the business for their liking? yeah, so tonight i thought there were a ton of fireworks sitting in the hall myself and watching reaction from the audience. we kicked off early on with two demonstrations one against police accountability and one on immigration. i think it's important that yes, folks really made the contrast against trump. what voters want to see is also a vision forward, just being better than trump is not enough. it was important that folks distinguished themselves on a much more like exciting and bold vision beyond just being better than trump. >> you're talking about, there were two eruptions of demonstrations. one was actually during cory booker's opening but it was actually against new york mayor deblasio. it was specifically related to officer pantaleo. they want him fired essentially

even though the justice department of the current president let him off the hook for killing eric garner. that's what that was about and it erupted twice during the opening. what did you make of deblasio? deblasio was on the attack. the recipient of those attacks was on the attack against joe biden. >> he wasn't who stood out. really tonight who had a standout night were backer and secretary castro. our indivisible flash poll will come out in the morning. we're seeing senator book ser at the top of the list for best performance tonight. again, he really had to make the case tonight to stand out. and to already make a splash and he did that. i want to note i think it was really important that it's not just the job of candidates of color to make the case about race in america and race in the presidential primary but it is really important their personal

pain, their proximity to pain is informing their solutions and hair vision. you saw senators booker and other folks of color frankly on that stage make the case in a way that was animating for all primary voters tonight. >> tiffany, that is a huge difference between this debate and the debate last night. this is a debate with people of color in it. >> this looks like the face of america. last night didn't. that the didn't mean that issues from race didn't come up last night. that's an important point. i have to give a shoutout to the senator gillibrand. she said listen, i can talk to some of these white suburban women and tell them why their whiteness is a privilege and why they don't have to fear for their sons. that was a great point. the other guys made a great point too, too that this has to animate voters. we can start from the perspective that everybody understands that donald trump is a racist and a white supremacist. we're not trying to convince anybody of that point. it is important to talk about a

path forward. hoom, i don't think there was enough conversation about that tonight. education is a huge issue. you're right there in detroit. this is betsy devos's backyard, secretary of education who has been a travesty in that state and now in the federal government. this is something a lot of families across the country care about. we didn't hear a lot on that tonight. the whole let's start a fight and it really the moderators it was like kamala, he was talking about your mama yesterday. what do you think about that? that's not helpful and it's challenging when people are trying to get a sound bite and go viral when you're singing for your supper because you you have a clapping audience and not offering people meat to the bone. i look forward to the debate went no audience. >> and by the way, the debate was in detroit. not that far from flint. you didn't hear about environmental racism. >> when they got into the question, i agree with tiffany. we were talking about education. only bennett talked about

education. he said education is a big issue. i was surprised you were in detroit and there were so few detroit oriented responses. cory booker said the reason we lost michigan is because of voter suppression. i was surprised how few times they seemed to recognize where they were and why that should matter. if you've got an audience, you should play off that audience. did was a mistake on the part of a lot of the candidates. gillibrand did a good job. it also spoke to this idea we do have to talk about the 53%, all the white women in america who voted for trump. she made a compelling argument. that's one even though i doubt she will be on the ticket, 80s an argument democrats have to make. joe biden has to make that argument to white women and talk about privilege. i was impresses at both their racial discussion but their inability 0 talk about michigan in michigan was shocking. > all politics is a local. >> democrats must have it back. flint didn't come up.

these spec issues didn't come up. it seems like it would be easy to limit the audience. >> reinvesting in the cities. they should have a plan for that and there was very little talk about climate change. jay inslee keeps trying to bring it up. everybody should be talking about that. instead we've had five hours of debate about let's ditch obamacare and do something else. like this is one issue of 20 important issues that immigration and health care have had a disproportionate amount of attention. i think impeachment was underplayed. >> absolutely. >> castro had a great line against bennett where bennett said no, they shouldn't impeach because mitch mcconnell is going to not do it in the senate and then trump will say see, i got acquitted in the senate. castro said if they don't impeach, trump will say even the democrats weren't willing do say

that i was guilty which now everybody should focus on that because the burden really is on those democrats. otherwise, trump will make that argument. >> absolutely. on this issue of race, it's viewed by a lot off the political pundit to kracy, it's a killer for democrats. the more they talk about issues involving race and the more they talk about, there was an obsession in both debates are you going to have open boarders. it feels like even in the democratic debate there's the us versus them setting up. people don't want them here. >> the xenophobia that the republican party under trump continues to peddle is an issue that has to be dealt with. we can't overlook the context of tonight's debate given the last three weeks of donald trump escalating racism. as we talked last night, it's easy to say it's racist and easy to call out racism and necessary to do so. we're looking for a candidate that can speak to the unsetting talk about florida white voters.

will they, works white voters in florida in your old district vote against him specifically because he's racist? >> only if a convincing leader shows them why they need to. and what we saw tonight was in addition to calling trump's behavior racist, you did see joe biden try to speak to who we are as a nation whether he went straight to camera. you saw cory booker, yes, call it racist but spoke to who we are. frankly, michael bennett gave a compelling opening statement when he saw the sign that said love it or leave it and it was on a church sign. you saw gillibrand try do it. the nation needs a leader that can defend communities of color against racism but can bring white america along to understand the subtlety at times of the racism that is different than the overt racism. that's a leadership quality.

i believe a leader can convince enough americans to follow that path. >> do they need to be convinced? what needs to happen for white voters? it's really hard for i think america and americans to acknowledge that this is a racist country. it was found bd on racism. what needs to happen? let me say, when we put this it out white america sometimes, there is a misunderstanding that you can be okay with racism and not be called a racist. for people across the country, it's hard to take that. >> the key to the answer to your question is that there are a lot of white americans who don't want to think of themselves as racist. >> i agree. >> this is why a lot of them voted for obama. they were like, i'm going to

show. >> they liked the feeling. > that i'm not a racist. if they can be convinced that even if you are not a racist, if you vote for a racist, it's giving aid and comfort to racists. >> i agree with you. that takes too much time. name one person. america who not vote for trump because he's a racist because he was a racist when he got elected. that's never be a problem. there's not anybody who was surprised by who he is now. >> he's been worse than they expected. >> he's a worse racist. >> okay, wait a minute. we're going to have everybody hold so i can let maria urbina have the last word on this or just your final thoughts. i'm losing you. >> i want to put this in context a little bit. i think secretary castro did a really good job of addressing this. he's taking us forward on immigration. i know folks think that we're overplaying our hand on immigration but i reject that, one, because we have no choice against donald trump. he's going to continue to weaponize this in the midterms and it did didn't work. it's important that folks are able to reject we can't grow our

coles if we're not speaking about race and immigration. we think it will gin up young people and people of color and women. so i just want to put that in the context and show that secretary castro was really clear tonight that this is going to be a winning issue if we're not afraid of it. >> maria, thank you very much. coming up, the democratic debates include a lot of policy ideas. we have ezra klein here to respond next. ideas. >> we need to do the opposite of much what of what we're doing right now and the opposite of donald trump is an asian man who likes math. hobbs & shaw.

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this idea is a bunch of malarky what we're talking about here. the fact of the matter is, the fact of the matter is, that there will be a deductible. it will be a deductible in your paycheck. bernie acknowledges it. $30 trillion. has to ultimately be paid. i don't know what math you do in new york, i don't know what math you do in california, but i tell you, that's a lot of money. and there will be a deductible. it will be out of your paycheck because that's what will be required. >> the democratic presidential candidates clashed in a heated debate over a top issue for democratic vote in other words 2020, health care. for more on the policy hot spots from the debates we're joined by ezra clirngs editor at large of voxx and host of the ez tra

cline show. good to talk to you. been too long. your top five hot spots from both nights. >> all five in a row, huh. >> give me one at a time. you can give them to me one at a time. >> i want to start with one that people don't give attention to. on night one, pete buttigieg gave a great answer during the gun control debate and he said we keep having the same debate over and over again and he said this is still the same debate. then he said people laugh at me when i talk about doing things like changing the supreme court or getting rid of the electoral college but if you don't do anything structurally, you'll never pass these policies. he mentioned giving statehood to d.c. jay inslee mentioned getting rid of the filibuster. there are 100 policy ideas on the table but if democrats don't do something about the structure of the senate, about the fact that the geographic deck is stacked against them over and over and over again and about the fact increasingly activist supreme court making rulings making it harder for democrats

to get it done, nothing will be done. >> the reality is that i've had the opportunity to ask vice president biden this question and not sure what the answer is you know, when you ask some of these candidates what you do if mitch mcconnell is majority leader or even minority leader which he was able to still wield a lot of power. people say it will be a different world. that sounds liking what president obama thought. >> if mr. mcconnell is majority leader, they don't have a good answer. because there isn't a good answer. if he's majority leader you're not getting any real legislation through the senate. if democrats come out with 51 or 52 votes in the senate, there's a fair amount they can do. if they don't find some other way around the filibuster they're they're going to be ham strung.

>> we've got to talk about the health care. i counted 39 minutes on health care the first debate and 40 minutes tonight. so that's a lot. they spent a lot of time arguing back and forth on the minutia here. was there any clarity in the 80 minutes of debate over two nights? >> yes, maybe. the way i cut it is this. you have bernie sanders and elizabeth warren are doing an excellent job at defending an unpopular part of a big policy. they both signed on to medicare for all bill. sanders wrote it. it abolishes private insurance. that will take that policy from polling at 71% to polling down at 41% and it will increase middle class taxes. it does have popular price. people like the idea of expanding medicare. they don't like the idea what they currently have will be taken away from them by the government. harris trying to split the difference a couple days ago. she did a quite job poor job defending it. with she builds a public insurance system with a highly

regulated private option within it. it does mean people would lose their employer based health care they have now. the strange thing they did in order to keep the cost down so they don't have to increase middle class taxes is put it on a ten-year trigger. it doesn't phase in for ten years. they're getting the worst of both worlds. the benefits are too remote to understand and they're being deceptive with the financing. then you have the set of policies joe biden has one, but all the other candidates have them. they're all quite to the left of obamacare. very big public insurance options, they would cut costs in many ways and create a much better system but they're not truly universal. they don't disrupt the system that much and don't require huge amounts of financing so you don't have to increase middle class taxes. it's interesting to see how defensive they were on night one with sanders and warren compared to the bigger medicare for all

plan. an interesting die nam where the folks with the popular plans seem on the defensive about them. >> give us another one. structural reform, health care, what else? >> i think it was important tonight when jay inslee said that climate is a context in which all other policy are taking place. we tend to think a lot about the siloing of different policies. we'll say there's health care or talk about gun control. there are some things that aren't a policy. they are an ecosystem. they're the environment in which other policies are taking place. climate is one of them. if we don't do something about climate change, it will transform our economy through disasters and other things, transform cities, where people live. it's going to transform foreign policy by creating more refugees and destabilizing countries. that's a small list of what it

will do to say nothing of the incredibly dramatic and devastating possible effects of it. i don't think most of the candidates did a great job talking about this. ince lee is way ahead of them on this. he's done a great job laying out a pour or five-part policy series that really is -- he's the first one to put the policy flesh what the green new deal would look like. he's been -- he's not the most care ris mastic is in the field. >> it's simple. understand why he's running. there was also a long debate on immigration. how useful do you think it was? because this was framed by the questioners as do you want open borders or not. did we get much out of that? >> the moderates have been trying to pick at every point of controversy for the democrats. we mainly had an immigration debate. it was a debate about decriminalizing unauthorized border crossing and giving health care to undocument the immigrants. these are extremely unpopular

policies. there are broader policies in the field. there's a lot democrats would do to take away the worst of what donald trump has done. interesting ideas out there, warren has one, castro another that would increase legal migration which is important. it's a huge advantage for america so many people want to come here, live here, work here. but the fact they keep getting caught and largely due to moderation on this incredibly unpopular corner of the plan and the fact they've embraced it which the democratic party would not have done was striking. joe biden has not embrace this had speaks to the way he's running towards the general and feels a lot more secure in his standing among the democratic electorate. >> if you want to talk policy, ezra klein is the man to call. appreciate you staying up to talk to us tonight. >> thank you. >> up next, the focus on race and criminal justice in tonight's debate.

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tonight democratic presidential candidates faced off on the issues of criminal

justice and race. in a series of sharp exchanges. senator cory booker and vice president joe biden clashed over each other's approach to criminal justice reform. >> we should change the way we look at prisons. right now we're in a situation where when someone is convicted of a drug crime, they end up going to jail into prison. they should be going to rehabilitation. they shouldn't be going to prison. >> this is a crisis in our country because we have treated issues of race and poverty, mental health and addiction with locking people up and not lifting them up. and mr. vice president has said that since the 1970s, every major crime, every crime bill major and minor has had his name on it. sir, those are your words, not mine. >> julian castro was the first candidate to bring up the death of eric garner after protesters interrupted the debate with cheers of fire pantaleo. >> officer pantaleo used a choke

held that was prohibited by nypd for seven seconds, 11 different times eric garner said that he couldn't breathe. he knew what he was doing, that he was killing eric garner andity, he has not been brought to justice. that police officer should be off the street. >> kirsten gillibrand said it was the responsibility of white candidates to address racial issues and the effects of white privilege. >> as a white woman of privilege who is a u.s. senator running for president of the united states it is also my responsibility to lift up the voices that aren't being listened to. i can talk to the white woman that voted for trump and explain what white privilege is. when their son is walking down the streets wearing a hoodie, his whiteness is what protects him from not being shot. >> senator kamala harris called out the trump administration for treating families and children attempting to cross the southern border like criminals. >> the policies of this

administration have been facilitated by laws on the books that allowed them to be inincarcerated as though they've committed crimes. these children have not committed crimes and noud not be treated like criminals. >> our panel is back with us after the break. termites.

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i speak for just about everyone watching when i say i would trust anyone on this stage much more than i would trust our current president on matters of criminal justice. >> joining are the discussion issia nearby alcindor, news analyst. all right, what are the campaigns saying? who thinks that they cleared the bar? and in your view who, did? >> it's not surprising that each candidate in each campaign is trying to claim victory here.

i think unlike last night where we saw bernie sanders and warren come out fighting and be a duo that rose above the other candidates, tonight you had a series of candidates having big moments. be a referee and say we just should focus on president trump and turned around quickly and focused on biden saying your criminal justice policies are the reason why we have criminal incarceration. you saw biden going after senator harris about health care and her criminal justice background. tulsi gabbard not too many people were working on or thought she was going to have a breakout moment went for the jugular with senator harris and articulated her record as a prosecutor. then you had senator harris, a lot of the time she was on her heels trying to defend her

health care policy. she was trying to defend her status as a prosecutor. and the voters i've been talking to here in ohio say that they're really focused on the president's rhetoric. they're scared this is making their communities more dangerous. they want to hear democrats talking plainly about issues of race. we saw that tonight multiple times. >> and you know, jason, you were nodding about the kamala harris challenge. >> yeah. >> that has been something that's been brewing for a while but she didn't seem prepared for it. >> and what made it worse is what we were talking about, the clip where she had something to say afterwards. if you have a clapback in the forest and no one hears it was it a clapback? if it's 20 minutes later that means your come staff gave you something after you left so you could have something to say. she's got to be prepared in the moment to have an answer. the lack of detroit sort of commentary. we've all seen is the story this week, a 9-year-old black kid was almost going to be prosecuted for hitting somebody in the head with a dodgeball. harris could have jumped on that and saying this is what we're talking about. i would stop this sort of thing. that's the thing i expected them to talk about in criminal justice.

make it detroit specific. harris needs to do that. all she's going to get dinged with it you threw black men in jail and we don't trust. >> you on the race issue, there are two different ways to run a presidential campaign. one is to go for moderate white voters and say we're going to stick with the economy and jobs and the way donald trump has hurt farmers, stile steelworkers, go that way. other way is to go hard on his racism on the things he's done to black people the way he speaks about black people which could hurt with you group flub one. i'll start with you on this. if your view, as our persuadable voter, if you do thing 2 and you really talk about race in a -- we talked about this on the break, do you wind up losing white voters who tune that out? >> again, i'm persuaded. but if we're talking about the persuadable voters, sadly 2020 is not going to heal the nation regardless of who the candidates are. donald trump will continue to expose pedal racism and it will

work with a large constituency. the democratic candidate naturally will speak back to it. there was a moment with cam ma layer ris today on the economy on what you just mentioned when he said donald trump lied to you all of these things. she was speaking to white working class votes are and ag workers but at the end of the day, leaders either set the narrative or follow the narrative. and what we need in a president as a nation is somebody that'sing to lead the narrative and inspire. there were white republican voters who did vote for barack obama specifically because they were ready to see the nation move forward.

we're not going to heal. can we get past where we are right now under the leadership of a democratic nominee? i'm hopeful we can and refuse to accept america where we can't. >> if the candidate does thing 2, right, where they talk about race, where they don't talk about race and try to go for the first set of votes are do they wind up losing? because you need to get african-american turnout over 50%. hillary clinton got 58. >> the second you flirt with the megacrowd you're going to lose your base. that is always a mistake. i understand what you both are saying. i respectfully disagree with your perspective. nobody was duped in 2016. he kicked off his campaign with racism. for decades he had been an outright racist. this is not the first time the country has had a white supremacist in the white house or dealing with racial division. this is as american as apple pie and existed since the founding

of the country. for the first time, there's a new generation of people demanding a reckoning for the centuries of white supremacy they felt oppressed by. when you have a candidate come along who cannot acknowledge that, cannot speak to that, wants to kind of excuse people for voting that make them feel it's okay you did that, we want to welcome you back, those people are more woke than nostalgic for the obama era and want you to go hard or go home, those are the base. they actually outnumber the persuadable votes are that democrats flirt with. >> you're saying you can't walk and chew gum at the same time. >> no, i'm not. >> the you can be very, very strong in condemning racism. you said that i agree that racism is as american as apple pie. we have never in recent times had a president liking this. george wallace, the did i have nition of racist, when he became a candidate for president in 1968, 1972, and 1976, he ran three times. when he went nash, he wasn't nearly as racist as trump in his rhetoric because he realized pooh -- >> there was no twitter then. or 24 hour news networks. >> there was embarrassing. there are a lot of white people if this man's awful racism can are put in their face, they will be embarrassed by it. >> there's two things about this.

a lot of this is rhetorical and that's the failing of biden or the other people. when we were talking about the attack on the squad, i kept saying he attacked the heartland. you can talk about it race anally. this lady is from michigan this person is from minnesota. you can talk about brown people, black people and white people and bring the people together. >> the michigan congresswoman not mentioned at all. >> yamiche talking to democrats in democratic official land, which way do they want to go? are they concerned the nominee will talk in a direct way about race and turn off white voters or are they concerned that the candidate won't talk enough about donald trump's excesses when it comes to open racism? you've experienced it as a journalist and they won't mention that and then they'll lose?

>> the democratic officials that i've been talking to say that democrats need to recognize most democratic presidents have never won the white vote. there have been very rare cases lyndon johnson, clinton in his second term. for the most part, democrats haven't been able to win white men in this country for a long time. they're very worried that people are not going to go after the people who feel scared in this country. i think what i've taken away from my reporting in missouri and ohio is people viscerally feel like their children and their parents and their families are under attack in this country and that the president's making that situation worse. i was just talking with people getting screamed go back to their country on their streets in dayton, ohio. this isn't just the president kind of making feel worried. it's people having to deal with

it in local communities. i've been talking to trump supporters excited by the president's rhetoric. they're not saying i'm embarrassed. they saying we like he's telling people to go back to their countries.llworried. >> yeah, and i can tell you tim wise who helped run the campaigns or worked on the campaigns against david duke twice said it very clearly you've got make that danger clear. that's the only way you can win in the eyes of tim wise. great talking to you. coming up, candidates attacking candidates. is that what voters want to hear? we'll talk about it next. >> conversely if mitch mcconnell lets him off the hook, we'll be able to say sure, they impeached him but his friend mitch mcconnell moscow mitch let him off the hook. it's show time.

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for wifi with super powers, get xfinity xfi. and go see, fast & furious presents, hobbs & shaw. august 2. okay. our panel is back with us. hey there, over there, you have to wait. i'm going to the lady first. it's 1:467 in the morning. my patience is low. we're having a great debate off camera which way the democrats have to go in order to win. >> i understand what you're saying. i understand your point but i

think there is some daring, we were talking about senator amy klobuchar when she said listen, i know there are some of you who voted for trump. you're not racist. i think there are people across this country who say what? you can't talk to them and talk to me. you cannot appeal and flirt with the maga crowd and expecting to turn around and come back to me. no one was duped in 2016. we knew exactly who this candidate was. so to excuse these voters and somehow say we have to extend ourselves to them to win, even when you look at the data, that is not the margin that wins elections. still the media and certain outlets treat people like they're viable candidates even though they have zippy chance winning the. >> i'm not saying klobuchar. >> no, an example of somebody if we can win red states. >> those people in maga hats are irredeemable. the people she was addressing are the white women in the suburbs who got the house back

for the democrats. >> the white women got the house back? >> i'm saying in those swing areas if you look at a lot of those districts where you had moderate democrats who won, nancy pelosi talks about why she's against impeachment, obviously there were a lot of african-americans who turned out in 2018 also. but a lot of white women in the suburbs who had voted for trump. >> 53% voted for trump and 49% remained loyal during the midterms. i can't credit them with anything. we can't credit white women with giving the democrats back the house. >> let jason break the tie. >> presidential election year, that's not going to be the issue. in a presidential election year, have you many white women in america who see donald trump as the strong white man who they support and believe will look out for them against an increasing world of lgbtq people and people coming across the border.

that's what he represents. that is an emotional visceral response. there ain't nobody on this stage tonight who is going to convince those women that anybody will come to their defense more than donald trump. they're not changing their mind, not being affected. >> let's go to wwrd. >> i'll give you two very quick truisms. one, it is hard to win back a voter by telling them they were wrong. you can make the moral decision not to try to win them back based on this issue. the second is, democrats could nominate mickie mouse and we know barack obama is going to spend 30 days crisscrossing this nation telling african-american voters you have to turn out in a way that put me over the finish line. whoever the nominee is going to have the support of the most popular democratic president. >> question on president obama. tonight, his record was a bit on the table. my theory is that joe biden goes up with black voters after

tonight because even though he stumbled, he stood on the stage and appeared to be the defender of barack obama. >> he puts on his obama mask every time and dances around in political black face. that's fine. i don't think that's going to be effective at the end of the day. biden will do great with black vote ares because oiled black people like him and know his name but not young people. those are the margins that will win you michigan, wisconsin and pennsylvania. >> you think black voters will not come out to vote for bide. >> and if they don't have a brown person on this ticket, they're going to lose. and it's got to be a -- >> i don't think. >> let me give you a piece of data. i looked it up quickly thanks to steve kornacki. joe biden's favorability with 65-year-old and older african-americans 5%. his fafability or the people choosing him among 178 to 29-year-olds, 29%. more from this panel.

we'll get their final thoughts after the break. here you go little guy.

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let's be clear about this. we are the democrats. we are not about trying to take away health care from anyone. that's what the republicans are trying to do. and we should stop using republican talking points in order to talk with each other about how to best provide that health care. >> my panel is back with me. that was the winner of tonight's debate. she won overall. talk about the next debate. is it cruel of me that thinks there needs to be a serious cut down. >> it's going to happen. >> biden can booker, buttigieg, beto, bernie and elizabeth warren have qualified. castro and an-drew yang and the polling amy klobuchar. is there any reason why we need debates with the candidates who are not -- you are the only elected official here at the table. >> imagine what the nation would have seen tonight if everybody was on stage if you had warren

and sanders in the mix tonight. there's an inability to team up on biden in houston. there were about 20 seconds tonight where gillibrand was hitting him on working moms and immediately harris hit him on the hyde amendment. they had him in a corner. >> the candidates viable. one of the frustrations of these debates is that you're seeing a lot of people that you can't you're asking people about foreign policy it's unlikely they'll run america's foreign policy. we need to b.e.t. let warren and biden and harris and other candidates go at it. >> and have them compete on issues. they can all talk about health care till the cows come home but we haven't heard them all talk about race or have to answer those difficult questions. i think it will be interesting once this field cuts down, will people like bernie and warren ho haven't been inclined to attack a lot, will they be willing to do that or just stake out their claim? at some point, someone has to draw blood. the only person that's done that

is harris. i look forward to seeing these people when it's hunger games and your name goes up on the screen. who is willing to strike first. >> i'm not sure that will necessarily escalate in predictable ways. they all understand job one is beating trump and know there's a line they can't cross. >> they don't want to the damage each other. >> you lose yourself if you hit too hard in this kind of environment. ronald reagan 11th commandment, don't criticize another democrat. you have to be careful. >> you don't want to serve him too many -- we saw with hillary clinton that when bernie sanders served up red meat on her, he used his rhetoric against hillary clinton. you don't want to serve up too much red meat to him. >> i agree. can i say though quickly. >> i'd like to see somebody

participate in the deebs that we haven't seen yet. that is a black woman moderator. okay? i mean, honestly, tonight senator cory booker said black women are the most active voters and loyal, and yet time and again, we haven't seen a black woman be part of the discussion. >> abc i believe is the next debate. robin roberts. >> hbcu, at texas southern. they're going to look ridiculous. not just black woman. a single woman of color to participate in the debates. it's very frustrating. >>s a historical. carol simpson. >> exactly. >> i would like to see a governor in the finals tooince lee. >> we'll put one in. let one in. we're not being real generous tonight. thanks to jason johnson, jonathan alter, tiffany cross, david jolly. thank you so much. our coverage continues with brian williams right now. with b. >> the first thing that i want to do when i'm president is i'm

going 20 clorox the oval office. >> it was nice two of the second democratic debate. all eyes on former vice president joe biden. he appeared caught off guard in the first debate but appeared prepped to fend off attacks. >> and the fed cuts the reserve for the first time. >> wealthy sex offender appears in court after reportedly being found injured in his jail cell last week. >> good morning, everyone, it is thursday, august 1. i'm