the kurdish word for freedom. >> richard posted these photos on instagram of the baby and his mother, both healthy and safe in germany. the syrian war and the refugee crisis continues to be the most devastating story in the world. it's not one huge story. it's human survival and tragedy, one by one. the family is seeking asylum in germany. but they made it there, and the baby is in great health. if you're looking for a best new thing in the world today, i'll take that one. that does it for us. we will see you tomorrow. good evening, lawrence. >> we've been watching the debate, and we're going to do some early reactions to it. >> wonderful. >> thank you, rachel. >> thanks. the democratic presidential candidates have completed the first hour of their first debate in las vegas. the candidates clashed on gun control, foreign policy and what bernie sanders called the worst foreign policy mistake in history, the iraq war.

there was no discussion on e-mails and bernie sanders got the only standing ovation of the evening by saying clinton's e-mails should not be an issue in this campaign. joining us now, steve kornacki and columnist for the daily beast. and april ryan, the washington bureau chief for american urban radio networks. steve, your scorecard so far? >> it's a good night for hillary clinton. the one asterisk i put is it reminds me of a baseball series. the first hour of this debate be a home game for hillary clinton. they talked about guns, the issue with bernie sanders being most vulnerable. clinton came ready for an attack on sanders on the issue. she was backed up by martin o'malley. they went to foreign policy. there was a question about vladimir putin and russia, that bernie sanders was stumbling around. this is not the bernie sanders

people have come to know. just as we're coming on the air right now, the second hour of the debate beginning. i saw they were shifting to wall street. they were shifting to the idea of breaking up the big banks. this is much more bernie sanders home turf. maybe it'll be a sanders home game for the second half. my main take away is we're thinking of joe biden watching the debate, trying to figure out whether to get in the race. i don't think he watches the first however and says, yeah, there's room to go after hillary clinton here. >> yeah. in watching the first hour, it was -- i didn't miss joe biden. >> right. he really has to have an opening and a ground swell for him to get into this thing. the other thing to understand about this debate is it has competition on television. the two biggest media markets are -- have baseball. the mets versus the dodgers. men watch baseball. democrats watching the debate,

it could be more heavily waited to a win in viewers. who are much tougher on gun control than male democrats. hillary was scoring not just in the exchanges with sanders, but with the audience, which was women that she needs to hold and women who feel very strongly on gun issue. she scored points with them tonight. >> april, one of the questions from the audience was through facebook was, do black lives matter or do all lives matter? we saw bernie sanders answer, with black lives matter. >> yeah. that's a really big issue for all the candidates. we've seen recently that hillary clint clinton, as well as bernie sanders, have been talking to people in the black lives matter movement. it's a very big issue right now, particularly as we are dealing with criminal justice reform and community policing and training of police.

saying the accountability piece of the video tapes that we're seeing with eric garner and all these other people. freddie gray. all these people, walter scott. also, when they talked about black lives matter, i can't help but think about martin o'malley, talking about what he did in baltimore, and the issue of baltimore. that is all a part of the black lives matter issue, as well. freddie gray incident involving the police and the zero tolerance issue. i think black lives matter is a piece that's going to follow these candidates pretty much for the rest of this campaign season. it's a real, real big issue. >> bernie sanders had a lot of strong moments in this debate, including when they got into middle east earn policy, on syria. he said it is a quagmire in a quagmire. >> also, he had the line on the iraq war, calling out hillary clinton, anybody who voted for

the war. it was the greatest foreign policy mistake. what was interesting is we remember how vulnerable clinton was on the 2008 vote. the answer she has for it in the year 2015, is hey, remember the campaign against barack obama where he questioned my judgment on iraq, questioned my judgment on foreign policy? when that ended, he made me his secretary of state. he had enough confidence in my judgment, despite the vote in 2002, that he put me in charge of american foreign policy. that was an effective answer. think back to 2008, she didn't have the ability to give that answer. >> yeah. it was striking that she used barack obama as the human shield on the iraq question. >> i think it worked for her well, but i think there's also a sense in certain quarters of the democratic party that sanders and the other candidates, except for webb, are more liberal on foreign policy. for people who really focus on those issues, they remember not just the iraq vote, but that she

was pushing hard on libya and tried to blame it on the allies. she was really interested in getting the administration to intervene in libya. overall, people get a general impression of these debates, the specifics are less important. she is showing, once again, as she did in most of the debates in 2008, where she beat obama routinely in those debates, she's a very effective debater. she's poised. she has good coached answers. she had a one-word answer that worked well. do you want to respond on these e-mails? she just said, no. in a way, that worked for her. it didn't seem defensive, which has been her problem in other settings. >> yeah, this was a -- >> lincoln chafee was the only one saying something negative about the e-mails. basically saying, you should have a scandal free candidate. she was asked, did she want to respond to that. the no got a big cheer out of

the audience. one-word answer. >> right. >> on the gun issue, bernie sanders kept repeating that he's a senator from a rural state. he seemed -- it depends how you were hearing it, but it almost sounded like a much more elegant version of the clumsy mitt romney, i'm in politics for pete's sake, meaning, i'm from a rural state, what did you expect of me on gun control in the senate? >> well, he's basically saying there's game in there. one thing in particular that i picked out from his conversation or his speech on gun control issue, he did say that the nra gave him a d minus. he wanted people to understand that, yes, i am in this state where we use guns for game. and we have guns. at the same time, i go up against the nra. it was interesting to watch how he got in this back and forth with martin o'malley, the

governor of maryland, the then governor of maryland. martin o'malley was saying, you need to see maryland and how we deal with gun control. it was interesting to see bernie sanders basically dismissing and saying, you were never in congress. the crowd roared there. bernie sanders has points, and people have to take a more in-depth look. you can't get it all when people are going back and forth in the moment, the heated exchange. i think he made a key point to say the nra gave me a d minus. that lets people know he's not necessarily pro guns. >> i tweeted before the debate that the big question was who is going to be the first one to mention the word "socialist." i think most of my twitter followers got it right. it would be the moderators. it was almost the first word out of anderson cooper's mouth. it was the first question aimed at bernie sanders. his political history going back decades to his youth was very

much on the table tonight. anderson cooper composed on a republican attack ad against bernie sanders. he did not compose any republican attack ad against clinton or any of the other candidates. how did bernie sanders handle that first inning that was all about socialism? >> i thought he handled the question well, but what really i found interesting about the exchange was hillary clinton, as soon as sanders finished, she was ready to get into the discussion. she had a -- she was taking a shot at -- >> easy one for her to duck, by the way. >> she wanted this. >> yeah. >> she basically said, when she thinks of capitalism, she thinks of small businesses. she thinks of the greatest period of prosperity in this country's history. the post-war decades. she says basically, the goal of government and her goal in politics, sometimes needs to be to save capitalism from itself. the excesses of capitalism. basically, a defense of the capitalist system. it seemed like what she was

trying to do is draw contrast with bernie sanders and say, if you put him up, he's going to have to answer the question that anderson cooper just asked him in any debate and interview he's in. if you put me up, don't worry, i'm going to defend capitalism. >> the fact they're having a conversation about capitalism, i mean, this hasn't happened in this country in a very long time. hillary clinton is essentially taking what she called a new new deal approach. it's going way back to -- >> the new deal was declared to be socialism by all of its opponents. >> right. exactly. but she is -- >> and it was mostly socialism. >> she is willing under pressure from bernie sanders to go back to these very old be debates that new democrats, like her husband bill clinton, tried to get away from. you didn't see bill clinton in 1992 debating capitalism. saying we have to save capitalism from itself. she's, even though her positions

on middle class tax cut and higher taxes on the wealthy are pretty much the same as her husbands were in the 1990s, the rhetoric, the conversation, the fact that socialism and capitalism and the nature of our system is on the table is a very interesting intellectual development. it's not politically that significant, but interesting for those scoring at home. >> quick break here. thank you very much for joining us. coming up, one of the democratic candidates for president was not invited on to the debate stage tonight, but he will be invited on to this stage. professor lawrence will be joining us coming up. ♪ ♪ ♪

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insults women. that is unacceptable behavior. >> that was hillary clinton at a labor protest outside of a trump hotel in nevada last night. up next, trump has been tweeting the debate. he tweeted praise for one candidate on the stage tonight. guess which one?

i brought in some protein to get us moving. i'm new ensure active high protein. i help you recharge with nutritious energy and strength. i'll take that. yeeeeeah! new ensure active high protein. 16 grams of protein and 23 vitamins and minerals. ensure. take life in. what happens is a lot of the people have been tweeting, would you please tweet? i said, it's going to be a pretty boring debate, i think. we'll see. but i think it's going to be pretty boring. but so i've agreed that from 8:00 on, we're going to live tweet. >> here is a sample of donald

trump's boring tweets for tonight. putin is not feeling too nervous or scared. the trade deal is a disaster, she was always for it. can anyone imagine chafee as president? no way. he's also been retweeting fans of his saying, it's terrible without you up there, donald. he praised one of these candidates on the stage. do you know which one it is? >> bernie sanders. >> you have it right. >> he praised bernie sanders. good move to bernie sanders after bernie sanders said, let's remember where we were when bush left office. we were losing 800,000 jobs a month, and i know my republican friends seem to have some am nearby ya -- amnesia. cnn owns these clips, since they own the debate right now. we'll show them to you after the debate. big spreeurprise, bernie sander

gets the acknowledgment from trump. >> trump is obsessed with twitter. when the rest of us are -- >> to put it mildly. >> watching baseball or leading our lives, he's tweeting. he has two reasons to tweet favorably for bernie sanders. he believes he's going to be the republican nominee, and he knows that bernie sanders would be the easiest democratic nominee to beat. of course, he wants bernie sanders to win the nomination. he's going to try to pump him any way he can. he also is fighting jeb bush for the republican nomination, and so anybody who takes a shot at george w. bush, he'll tweet favorably about that person. he wants to remind republican party voters that jeb bush is connected to this disastrous war. i do think that it's a -- trump on that issue, not to talk about the republicans too much tonight, lawrence, but is a huge problem for jeb. the fact that he was against that war, which the beginning of

this campaign, most people didn't know what donald trump's position was on the iraq war, but he'll bring that up over and over again. between now and the final republican debate. it is a huge, huge problem for jeb bush. >> we're joined by the republican strategist and political analyst. steve, your scorecard so far on the debate? >> strong performances across the board from the democratic candidates on the stage. i think they are communicating effectively to a democratic audience out there. certainly, the case when you watch the debate, bernie sanders is for real. he'll have a impact in this democratic campaign. he'll win an early state or two. he'll accumulate delegates. one of the things that was most important about this debate from a political impact was the degree to which it was going to drive demand for a candidacy. i think it's too early to tell, to be able to analyze that.

but will joe biden will on the next debate stage? will there be a demand he get in after these performances? i don't think it's the case that you look and say, there's something missing. it's a terrible field. they're not effective communicators. but a high energy debate. >> if you're looking, if you're a voter who is looking for an alternative to hillary clinton or bernie sanders, because that's what the biden candidacy has to be, if you look at martin o'malley tonight, does he start to step into that role? >> i don't think he really does. he's a presentable candidate, and you can see him, you know, being a good candidate in future cycles. but hillary scored on him by saying, you endorsed me strongly. we're friends. why are you running? what are you bringing to the party? i don't think he had a very good answer. >> steve, what would be the

biden calculation? when you're scarie i staring at polls, are there too many things too far in the future? one thing is the head to head matchups a year from now against a republican. that happens to be the most encouraging element of all the polls for joe biden. he does better against every republican in the polls than any of the other democrats. is that the kind of thing the professionals stare at now and take to have real meaning? >> sure. but it's hypothetical. a lot of things have to happen in order to get to that point down the road. what is true though, i think, in joe biden's calculation, in that people understand washington, d.c., particularly people who have been around the national security establishment of the country. the republicans made a big mistake rhetorically about this investigation that trey gowdy is leading. at the end of the day, the fbi is investigating. multiple federal agencies. it is a serious inquiry, and there's a lot of unknowns

attached to that. one of the things that biden, i think, understands is the degree to which hillary clinton's credibility, her numbers, her trust numbers, have been decimated over these last months. she's always going to perform well on a partisan democratic debate audience, but in the real world, there are vulnerabilities that joe biden certainly looking at has every reason to believe, hey, can i get in there in the gap and take this nomination? it's difficult to argue that that's not a possibility. >> in republican news today, to put it mildly, republicans have been focusing on what happens after trump, hoping that after trump is sooner rather than later. it seems -- there is a report indicating that marco rubio is after trump. this is a massive amount of financing that instantly becomes available to marco rubio if true. what does that do to the standings after trump? >> well, stevens is better equipped to answer this

question, but if there is a sense that the game is moving to rubio, that could be a very significant deal, especially since he's been having a lot of trouble in raising money. that's been the big mark against him so far in the race. he hasn't done very well in that department. single-handedly erase some of the gap between him and jeb bush, he gets even more serious than he already is. there's already a lot of chatter that this nomination is going to end up being with rubio if he can continue to perform as well as he has been. >> april ryan, bernie sanders has pulled donald trump in the debate tonight, saying donald trump and his billionaire friends under my policies are going to pay a hell of a lot more in taxes today, taxes in the future, than they're paying today. donald trump would be, it seems, the perfect poster boy for

higher taxes in that debate room tonight. >> how about that? yes, he came out with that tax plan that basically would allow donald trump, speaking of, allow his friends, his wealthy friends in this country, to benefit. bernie sanders, i guess you can call him a socialist, is making no bones about the fact that he believes in the middle class and the average every day person. so there is a definite demarcation between trump and sanders when it comes to taxes. i find it interesting, talking about socialists and capitalists, i think that that whole conversation has been driven by the republican party. seeing the fact that many of the republicans don't want to have taxes, heavy taxes or any kind of what they consider an imbalance of taxes on the rich or the wealthy. therefore, the republicans are saying that, and the democrats are saying, wait a minute, let's take a step back and look at this and see who really is

hurting in america and who needs. i think that's where that came from. there's a demarcation line and that's the man trump likes, bernie sanders. >> steve, what's the best republican candidate strategy in reaction to this debate tonight? ignore it and pick something out of it to throw at hillary clinton? >> one of the things we don't talk enough about is the thread that connects bernie sanders voters to donald trump voters. it's a belief by both sets of voters, though they have different issues they project on to, that the system is not on the level. it's a rigged game. so when donald trump made the comment about bernie sanders talking about the financial collapse, one thing that republicans in washington do not understand emotionally is the degree to which this was the psychic event of a generation for working class americans, including many republican voters. millions of whom lost their homes. in the trump base, it's blue collar.

economically down scale. formerly middle class. these are people whose middle class jobs have been offshored, outsourced, sent overseas. the country has been dismantled. this is why washington republicans talk about free trade, free trade, free trade, and fair trade resonates. the trump position, exactly the same as the hillary clinton position. you see increasingly these left-right coalitions united on issues like trade because both sides have a similar voter cohort that they're speaking to on that. so with donald trump communicating to his voters, this is why he's against the interest in the poll and attacked john kasich and jeb bush for wall street tices. he's synced up with sanders at this populist anger that he's

directing at washington, d.c. it's a potent and powerful message. >> even if trump fades, bernie sanders fades, the result of this could be that the trade deal fails. that's a huge historic -- this is the biggest trade deal ever. sometimes when a trade deal happens to get mixed up in american domestic politics, it can be big, historic implications. much bigger than a debate. >> conservatives have been waiting for trump's demise. one thing is important to recognize -- >> they're not the only ones. >> he has been ahead for longer than there are days left to the first voting from today to iowa. there's no softening, no slowing down in sight at this moment in time. >> what are the odds against the nomination? >> right now, look, this isn't a difficult business. the person who gets the most votes and delegates wins. if the election were tomorrow, as it would have been the case over these last months, donald trump would be the republican

nominee. >> the problem is it's a popularity contest more than issue. >> he's in a better position, certainly, than any other candidate at this hour to be the nominee. it doesn't mean he will be. he's certainly better positioned than someone who is at 6% or 7% of the polls. >> april? >> it's more of a popularity contest instead of issue. tonight, we're seeing more issues out there on the table in this first democratic debate than we have in the past democratic debates. >> this has been all issues from start to finish. >> people want to hear the issues and you're hearing people talk about, they don't want troops on the ground right now in syria. you're hearing real substance versus the personality and back and forth. >> steve, april and jonathan, thank you. coming up next, professor lawrence lessig, running for the democratic presidential nomination. he didn't make it to the debate stage, but he will join me next. it's a fact. kind of like ordering wine equals pretending to know wine.

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the only democratic candidate for president not on the stage is professor lawrence lessig, who raised over $1 million from 10,000 donors but not raised his poll numbers enough to be included in the debate. professor lawrence lessig joins us now. professor lessig, there was a moment in the debate where bernie sanders talked about your campaign issue, which is campaign finance reform. you've said you want to get it -- you want to get in there

and fix campaign finance reform, and then the most controversial part of your candidacy and you will resign the presidency and hand it over to your vice president to take over from there. you're literally a single-issue candidate. listen to what bernie sanders said in the debate tonight. he said, as a result of this disastrous citizens united supreme court decision, our finance system is corrupt and undermining american democracy. millionaires are pouring sums of money into the political process to elect candidates that represent their interests, not the interests of working people. why isn't bernie sanders your candidate? >> well, i completely agree with that recognition, but what we don't have is any candidate explaining to the american people how we are going to fix this first. because all of the issues they're talking about -- and i was incredibly excited to listen to them talk about the issues that they were going to solve -- all of them are talking about fantasies unless we get a

democracy that works again. campaign finance is one incredibly important part of it, and i put forward a proposal for how we could, without the supreme court's cooperation, get a change in the way campaigns are funded. >> why can't bernie sanders do what you seau cay you can do? >> i'm not sure if he could or couldn't. what i'm sure of is he's not explaining how we do this first. >> how do you do it? >> what we do is create a campaign that explains in every single context why these issues, these ideas, these proposals to reform, require us first to get a congress that is not dependent on these funders. >> for this to work, you have to win not just the presidential election, you have to win the congressional election and win a bunch of house seats that -- where they disagree with this position now, and a bunch of senate seats where they disagree with that position now. >> lawrence, what we have to win is our democracy back.

what we have to win is a mandate strong enough to tell congress that their corrupted system has to change. because we will not be able to take on wall street as bernie so eloquently talked about tonight unless we have a system where congressmen don't raise the biggest contributors from wall street. we're not going to get a social security system that raises the taxes on the very rich when we have a system where the very rich are the most important funders of campaigns. all i'm trying to get these candidates to acknowledge, and literally not one of them made this point on that stage tonight, is that we won't get what they're fighting for until we the people get our democracy back. that's the critical question that's not -- >> if you were on the stage tonight, when this came up, you would have said, yes, i agree with all that, but you must also elect members of the

representatives who agree and senators who agree or we are powerless. >> that's exactly right. look. they talked about all these amazing things they were going to do and forgot the man in the middle. the man in the middle is congress. the most dysfunctional institution in our federal government right now. that institution is going to block all of these changes because it's not free to lead. that institution bends over backwards to make sure its funders are happy. they don't want to talk about it because they realize this is an impossibly difficult problem. it's not just the funding. the other part of my proposal for reform would change the gerrymandering system. so the politicians pick the voters instead of the voters picking the politicians. the system is dysfunctional and can't begin to address the is e issues america needs to be addressed. the issue not on the stage tonight is the issue i would put on every single question, which

is we need a congress that can function and we won't get it unless we change the basic way this democracy functions. >> your candidacy was written about in the "washington post" today and said this, can candidates who promise to vacate after one task or term should not be entrusted with it. they are the lamest of ducks before even taking flight. congress would frustrate them in the former and simply wait them out in the latter. >> yeah. it's a great point. it's the most difficult part of what i've been putting forward. i frankly believe we have to think a lot about whether this is a plausible part of the plan. look, everybody focuses on the resignation, but they're ignoring the fact that the resignation comes after we have achieved the most important democracy legislation in 50 years. the legislation that would make it possible, credible, to achieve what the amazing candidates are talking about. i want to focus on the problem

that was not mentioned on the stage tonight. that we don't have a congress that functions and begin to get people to talk about how we build the political mandate to change that fact. because if we don't, we're just playing fantasy politics. >> at this stage, is the biggest difference between you and bernie sanders on this the fact that bernie sanders rarely mentions the need to change congress and literally who they are in those jobs in order to achieve this change in citizens united? >> look, bernie sanders and i are very close on -- >> that's what i'm finding. >> here's the real difference, bernie sanders is not explaining to the american people why -- everything he's talking about depends on us fixing congress first. explaining how he is a day one reformer. in that reform, changing the way campaigns are funded on day one. look, he gave a total of 18 speeches in the united states congress talking about campaign finance reform. seven of them mentioned public

financing. four of those, the total discussion of public financing, was in the long run, we should get the public financing. what i want him to do is explain how the long run has to be tomorrow. we have got to get to a system where congress is not dependent on this tiny group of funders and, instead, is dependent on all of us so they can begin to address the problems all of us care about. >> lawrence lessig, thank you for joining us. >> thank you, lauren. coming e i -- lawrence. one of the nation's biggest sellers of guns linked to a crime, in a civil suit. that's coming up. you drop 40 grand on a new set of wheels, then... wham!

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today, a jury in milwaukee sided with two police officers who were shot in the face during a routine stop in 2009 and later sued the gun shop that sold the

gun. jurors found badgered guns, negligent and liable for the shooting, and awarded the officers $5 million. their lawyers argued the shop's negligence allowed the shooter to obtain a gun. surveillance video shows jacob collins buying a gun for the shooter, the 18-year-old, in a straw purchase. someone buys a gun, hands it off to the person who wanted the gun, so that person could avoid a background check. in this case, because burton was underage. wouldn't have passed the check. today's verdict is expected to be appealed and could go to the supreme court. joining us now, law professor at georgia state university college of law and the editor of suing the gun industry, a battle at the cross roads of gun control and mass torts. this is an extraordinary case. just to distinguish it for a lot

of people, people think federal law barred suing gun shops and manufacturers. describe what the federal law restricted and why it didn't apply to this case. >> 2005, congress passed and president bush signed the protection of lawful commerce in arms act, that granted immunity to gun sellers, both manufacturers and gun stores, for any liability that arises out of a shooting committed by a person who was a criminal who misuses the gun. there are a number of exceptions to that immunity. two of the exceptions are in place in this case. the first exception is where the gun seller knowingly violates a federal law. here, the knowing sale of a gun in a straw purchase would be a violation. the jury seemed to be convinced in this case that the gun store clerk had reason to know that this was an illegal straw purchase that was happening. the second is what's called negligent entrustment. that's the second type of exception to the immunity bill.

that's also something that the jury seemed to find in this case. those are two exceptions that were invoked by the plaintiffs. they seem to be accepted by the jury. for that reason, the immunity bill does not shield a gun store from liability in this case. >> this was a big issue in the presidential debate tonight. bernie sanders voted to provide that immunity when he was in the senate. hillary clinton voted against gun shops, manufacturers, having that immunity. what are the prospects for this case going forward? surely, there will be an appeal. >> there's certainly going to be an appeal. there will be a number of legal issues that come up about the interpretations that might be made of the exceptions. aside from the appeal and whether or not the verdict stands, there's an important question, which is, this verdict in favor of the plaintiffs may encourage other plafr plaintiff come forward in similar cases. since the immunity bill was passed in 2005, there's been a trickle of these lawsuits against the gun industry

pursuant to gun violence injuries. he may see a resurrection of this litigation phenomenon, where victims go after the sellers of the weapons, either in stores or the manufacturers themselves. >> timothy, thank you very much for joining us tonight. coming up, what should president obama do about the crisis in syria? vladimir putin spoke about it. special olympics has almost five million athletes in 170 countries. the microsoft cloud allows us to immediately be able to access information, wherever we are. information for an athlete's medical care, or information to track their personal best. with microsoft cloud, we save millions of man hours, and that's time that we can invest in our athletes and changing the world. at safelite, we know how busy life can be. these kids were headed to their first dance recital... ...when their windshield got cracked... ...but they couldn't miss the show. so dad went to the new safelite-dot-com.

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you said a year ago that the united states of america leads, we're the indispensable nation. mr. putin seems to be challenging that leadership. >> in what way? >> that was president obama speaking to steve on "60 minutes" about russia's involvement in syria. when pressed, president obama said this. >> when i came into office, ukraine was governed by a corrupt ruler who was a stooge of mr. putin. syria was russia's only ally in the region. today, rather than being able to count on their support and maintain the base they have in syria, which they've had for a long time, mr. putin now is devoting his own troops, his own military, just to barely hold together, by a thread, his sole

ally. >> today in moscow, vladimir putin complained about the united states refusing to coordinate with russian air strikes in syria. >> translator: at the military level, we asked them to give us the information regarding the targets. they believe are 100% belongings to terrorists. what we received as an answer is they won't do that. the second question was asked, please tell us which targets should not be attacked by us. no answer received. >> the "60 minutes" question of leadership, putin said, let me be clear, we're not going to get into debates about syria. there's only one leader in syria, which is the syrian people. joining us now is foreign affairs correspondent, and steve clemens. what do you make of putin's responses today? >> i think vladimir putin has a plan. he's had it for a long time, to demonstrate a muscularity around

the world. he's done it in ukraine, done it now in syria, other parts of the world. at least in the short term, you know, he's getting some progr s progress, at least in the perception of others. he may be drawn into a quagmire down the road, but now, he's getting credit for taking the action that many people think the united states won't do. >> let's listen to what josh earnest said about this at the white house today. >> i think the president was definitive in the news conference he did 10 or 12 days ago. he made clear the conflict in syria would not be a proxy war between the united states and russia. there is ample rhetoric we see from republican critics,ly goad president, to try to engage in a proxy war with russia. they say that because they think maybe that it makes them look tough. i think they'd have aticulatingd

be in the national security interest of the united states of america. >> your reactions? >> i think that it's exactly a proxy war. i think the islamic state has been the primary threat for both the u.s. being in syria and russia being in syria. then our sideshow. we need to get transparency here. it's pretty obvious that turkey, saudi arabia and the u.s. have been supporting rebels that are anti-assad. it's pretty obvious that putin is now in syria to prop up assad. we need to come to a common agreement. the u.s. needs to be clear and transparent of what the objectives are in syria, as do the russians. i don't think it'll happen. until it happens, there is going to be miscommunication. whether it be from the air power perspective or from the ground forces perspective. >> let's listen to more about what the president said on "60 minutes."

>> one of the challenge s i've had throughout this heartbreaking situation inside of syria is that you'll have people insist that, you know, all you have to do is send in a few truckloads full of arms and people are ready to fight. then when you start a training program and it doesn't work, people say, well, why didn't it work? or if it had started three months earlier, it would have worked. in a situation that's has volatile, with as many players as there are inside of syria, there aren't any silver bullets. >> steve clemens, no silver bullets, no good choices. >> i think the president describes it absolutely right. it's a civil war within a country with a proxy conflict on top of it. the mistake barack obama made is saying that bashar al assad had to go, creating a conflict over those words and creating a sense of vacuum of american leadership and decision on this that other nations have taken advantage of. everything obama said was

absolutely correct, but this notion that we were engaged in some sort of wishful regime change without doing much to accomplish that has left open an opportunity for many other players. >> the presidential debate tonight, bernie sanders called it a quagmire in a quagmire. basically supported the president's approach. >> it is a quagmire within a quagmire. air strikes alone won't do the job. if the islamic state is the true threat, is the true target, you do need a ground force. there is a logical ground force on the ground that doesn't have the aspiration to topple assad that wants to take isis head on. that's the kurds. i kind an ally like the syrian kurds hasn't been seized on earlier by the united states and other things have. for me, again, it goes back to this transparency and what the true objectives are in syria. that needs to be thrashed out between putin and the administration. until that happens, then we are going to have these issues until the macro sort of perspectives

are aligned. >> steve, does the administration see the syrian kurds as a match for the islamic state there? >> i think they've said now that the suspension of the train and equip program is one of the allies will be a number of sunni groups, but then the backbone would be the syrian kurdish troops that have been there. before the refugee crisis, there were 3 million curds inside syria. it's a lesser number now. i don't think they alone are enough to take on isis, but it could be a key part of it. the problem is, the more successful they become, the more problematic other sunni fears that the kurds will take territory and essentially push sunnis out happens. so it's almost as if -- when you ally with any dimension of a group there, you alienate another part of it. until we get something that brings the groups together, as opposed to allowing them to fight for their own interests, things will remain in a knot. >> sorry, lawrence.

quickly, there's a dichotomy here, as well. you have turkey and by supporting the syrian kurds, it's good evening. i'm chris matthews live on the spin room. that's what they call it, at the win hotel on the loss is strip. the side of the first-ever democratic debate. we have reaction from the candidates come all the since it he spin. after midnight east coast