've got a spike in temperature. so save the day... don't worry, i got this... oh yeah, i see your spaceship's broken. with xlte on largest, most reliable network. get 50% off smartphones like the new lg g3. this morning, my question. why does it take nearly two years to get an immigration court ruling? plus, what it means to live in a war zone. and how the browning of america could reshape the electoral map. but, first, today's headlines. 100 years in the making. good morning, i'm melissa harris-perry. it's the middle of summer. a time when many of us hope to enjoy warm weather and maybe lazy hours with friends and family or a good book and a cold drink. we might even choose not to tune

in to the news for a few days. but this week was one when the news demanded our attention because suddenly the conseque e consequences of long simmering global tensions became very real. with the death toll there reaching more than 300 and the shocking downing of malaysian airlines flight 17, with that, the world called us out of our summer in attention with grim and bloody realities. when hundreds are dying and many are children we cannot simply pretend we don't notice. these events require us to pay attention. you might say we were dragged out of a self-imposed isolation and back into the middle of world events. it is not entirely unlike what happened the same month 100 years ago. in july, 1914, austria, hungary declared war on serbia, declaring the first world war. the united states had resolved our own wrenching civil war 50 years prior. we had shown little taste for

international engagement. then 100 years ago this month the start of world war ii radically entered the world and america's place in it. 16 million people lost their lives. four empyres collapsed and the victorious powers divided despite its enormous toll, this proved not to be the war to end all wars. in fact, world war ii and the national boundaries in its wake touched off a century of global conflict. america roared into the 1920s, even as european devastation sewed seeds that were harvested within a decade as the great depression and ultimately as world war ii. in dividing the ottoman empire made promises to palestinians and jewish settlers promises that even a century later continue to stir unrest in the middle east. while our country toyed with receding from global engagement, the world war one reality ended the practical possibility of

american isolationism. as woodrow wilson said in 1918, it's not too much to say. we saved the world and i do not intend to let the europeans forget it. laid a foundation on which the economic power of the united states is now built. world war i also caused a seismic shift. then the russian civil war and ultimately to the soviet union and to its status as the imperial super power counterpoint to the united states. the united states and soviet union managed strategic alliance throughout the second world war but the tensions and goals meant that the frost of the cold war hardened the ground between us and them before the ink on world war ii treaties was even dry. the decades of cold war shaped america's understanding of ourself. led us into war in both korea and vietnam. defined and divided the world and even brought the world to the very edge of global.

it just as suddenly seemed to be over. american president ronald reagan demanded that mr. gorbachev tear down this wall and by 1990 the berline wall was down. people and goods began to cross borders and seemed impossible only a few years earlier. by the end of 1991, the soviet union itself was over. american eyes we were the victors. we were the only super power left in the world. in less than 100 short years, we'd won. but the limitations of our standing in the world, the constraints on our super power became painfully clear this week. a civilian aircraft with 298 people onboard was shot out of the sky on thursday. 298 lives lost. our government clearly believes it was the work of ukrainian separatists, separatists who, for months, had the support and the weapons the russian government who have recently been taking credit for shooting military aircraft out of the

sky. we sent our ambassador to the united nations to make the case that russia is ultimately eto blame for the deaths of those 298 people. >> this appalling attack occurred in the context of a crisis that has been fueled by russian support for separatests for arms, weapons and training and by the russian failure to follow through on its commitments. this war can be ended, russia can end this war, russia must end this war. >> and much of european history, the violent deaths of 298 civilians, most of them europeans europea europeans in such a public way may be the spark that sent fire lead to war, but now, almost exactly 100 years since we began our ascendants to the world's only super pow, the landscape is different. the united states is laying the blame for 298 civilian deaths at the feet of russia. we are doing so in front of the entire world.

we are doing so after warning president putin, again and again not to take another step as he sees crimia from a sovereign nation and supported separatists in that nation and thumb his nose and are left making an impassioned, but toothless plea for action. without the ability to credibly threaten military action, without the assurance that we can rally allies even when they have sustained such staggering losses with the foe we thought we bankuiguished. it doesn't feel particularly super. joining me now hillary professor that school of international service at american university and author of the book "going to terrain." colonel jack jacobs nbc military analysts. adrian senior fellow at the atlantic council's program on transatlantic relations. professor of politics at princeton university and authors

of "empires and citizens." what did i get wrong? >> well, the one thing you got wrong, which is part of the problem is that in the consequence of the first world war, one empire did not collapse. the russian empire, in a sense, was reconstituted now found by an ideology as opposed to orthodox christianity. >> that becomes the imperial power in the world. >> it becomes a -- it persists and has a series of multi-ethnic problems and one of the biggest problems that russia, that the soviet union confronts is the nonrussian nationalities which eventually in 1991 through after a period of ferment began to unravel. all this is relatively peacefully handled. few hundred lives are lost and struggles, there is a pretty violent struggle in the caucuses

between armenia and some killings in the baltics. but pretty much for the collapse of a multi-national state, it's pretty peaceful. you have general acceptance for the russian lead for about a decade of this state of affairs. and then you have other separatist movements occurring in russia which bring forward much more, i would say nationalistic relations meaning the chet chnya crisis and the return of the security forces back into the elite, back into the leadership of the country. the kgb leader and mr. putin comes in is implanted after a political leader boris yeltsin and he begins to move gradually to consolidate power and he has a different vision. he has a vision that that ten years is an anomaly and he wants some way of bringing gathering, first economically and maybe

through military packs and maybe through the re-creation of a unitary state. i think we're dealing with mr. gorbachev. currently not knowing which of those various options he wants. he's testing, he's probing what he can get away with. >> so what you've done there is to flush out that complexity eand the wall came down and then it was over, right? but i guess i'm also wondering. have i overstated the case that we're toothless in our plea here to the u.n.? do we, in fact, have more power than i'm feeling like we have on this day? >> well, we do continue to have an incredible amount of power. we are still the world's, at this point, world's most important and most consequential power and what i would also say is missing from the narrative between world war i and world war ii and the current day. the pursuit of absolute dominance and the defeat of other powers that are natural powers in the world, regardless

of whether it's putin or somebody else, that pursuit by a power of absolute dominance to defeat that other power is disastrous. whether it's nazi, germany, or any other case. regardless of the demonization going on about putin, not to say that i think he's a great guy, but this propensity to demonize him in a defeatist attitude that they have been defeated and the united states will and will remain the absolute power is something that is so dangerous for ourselves. it has led to the erosion of american power which then equates to weakness because people then see. you invaded iraq and you couldn't do anything. you destroyed afghanistan and couldn't do anything and same thing with syria. what are you going to do with ukraine? >> and, so, i want to play on that notion of the check that you can't check in part, colonel. even as i was writing and thinking and even as i was reading in those moments, i know it can sound like what i'm doing there is beating the drum beat of war and say unless we go to

war against mr. putin and unless we bring military action and it does feel like there is something about the fact that that is entirely off the table, but maybe i'm overstating that, as well. it just feels like there is both no taste for it in a way that then allows a power like mr. putin in this case to behave in ways that 100 years ago may not have accepted. >> i don't think you're going too far. matter of fact, i would take it a step further. not only do we ehave the political will to use the military instrument of power, i don't think we have the political will to use any instrument of power either. take a look at the use of our economic instrument. president of the united states says, we're really going to go after these guys, we're going to go after russia and we're really going to squeeze them economically. it's another round of sanctions. if you take a look at what the sanctions are, who they're affecting and how much of the russian economy it is affecting,

you realize a lot of it is just rhetoric and you mention the whole idea of getting the europeans who actually suffered as a result of that, if you take a look at the exchanges and dutch social media about what's going on. how the dutch ought to respond with people beating the drums. we need to do something about russia. you get quite a few people responding by saying, you know, we get most of our natural gas from russia and winter's coming. you're not going to get a response from us. you're not going to get a response from people who are directly affected by this. i don't think you're going overboard. >> everybody stick with me. we have so much more on this. when we come back, the latest from ukraine and the scene of the downed malaysian airline flight 17, it's up next. because we like giving you power, but we also like giving you fuel efficiency. like the sporty jetta. and the turbocharged passat tdi® clean diesel.

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i want to bring you the latest on the downing of malaysia airlines flight 17 that killed 298 people onboard on thursday. the plane was shot over the sky as it traveled over the part of ukraine. investigators have been hindered by armed separatists that crash site who have reportedly moving evidence away from the area, including one of the plane's black box recorders. european leaders have demanded that russia push the rebels to step aside and allow the investigators to work. and this morning u.s. secretary of state john kerry spoke with nbc's david gregory on "meet the press" to all but put the blame at russia's feet. >> a stacking up of evidence here that russia needs to help account for. we are not drawing the final conclusion here, but there is a lot that points at the need for russia to be responsible. we must have unfedered access. and the lack of access, the lack of access, david, makes its own

statement about culpability and responsibility. >> nbc has more from ukraine and filed this report. >> this is a section of the plane's tail behind me. pieces all across the countryside. what is stunning is that we are able to stand here and i never experienced anything like this and we were able today to walk through the wreckage efebtively with bits of the plane on either side of us admittedly those areas were coordened off because further down is the heart of the crash. a whole field of scorched earth and pieces of the engine, what look like the fuseloge. we are told the bodies that have been found have been removed from here. they are still in the hands of the russian supporting separatists militia who control this region. now, we're told that they have

taken them to a refrigerated train car nearby. the question is, when will they be moved on and where will they go to? relatives around the world waiting to get their loved ones back. another question, how will investigators be able to get here to begin looking for clues and establish exactly what happened. remember, melissa, this is a war zone. you have heard the sound of artillery and it is possible that the ever-moving front in this battle will move across this site making it much more dangerous than it is now and that is what investigators will be having to consider while they try to plan to come and carry out this air accident investigation. melissa? >> that was keir simmons reporting from ukraine. we have much more still to come this morning. up next, the case for keeping your weapons at home. when the pressure's on...

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rhetoric around the downing malaysian airlines flight 17 was that the weapon was used to shoot it down including the united states has been making the case that the plane was likely shot down by ukrainian separatists with a weapon supplied by agents of the russian government. >> we know that they are heavily armed and that they are trained and we know that that's not an accident. that is happening because of russian support. a group of separatists can't shoot down military transport planes or they claim shoot down fighter jets without sophisticated equipment and sophisticated training. that is coming from russia. >> so, for me, listening to our president and our secretary of state and ambassador to the u.n. make this claim, i get why but it also, my first thought was, do you know how many people we have armed. we being the united states. many of whom are now opponents, but who at the time we understand as allies, how far

back does culpability reach? if, in fact, it's just about having armed someone? >> well, it can drag on. the effect of that can drag on and the u.s. now finds itself in a situation where if it basically allows itself, you know, what extent is it going to tip the balance where it's in a full fledge confrontation with russia. obviously, the u.s. is trying to avoid that. >> the freedom fighters in afghanistan against the soviets and they, surprise, surprise came back here on 9/11 and took it. the basis is dangerous for the united states. it's not about protecting putin. >> right -- >> we have taken down a civilian airliner before. we have covered up, we have blocked international investigation and covered up, lied about and decorated the commanding officers in charge. the problem here is not what putin or russia may or may not have done. we need to get out of the

international business of being police, finder of fact, trier and executioner. >> that doesn't work and it diminishes and hurts. >> the argument that you've just made is the same, is an argument for mr. putin. why what mr. putin doing is extremely dangerous for him. he is arming irregular forces. he is raising expectations. >> let russian powers suffer because of this. as an american i do want to see the divide of american power. >> if you look and you read the debate that has been going on in russia, there has been a comeback by what we would call the pragmatic and business elite which is very concerned already about the dangers of foreign direct investment and the decline of the russian stock market and the potential of energy. >> part of, i mean, this is a reality even for the men and women who serve on the ground.

so, we were going back and looking at images of donald rumsfeld with saddam hussein at one point because at one point we understand saddam hussein as an ally to the american interests and then later it becomes the central concern to remove him from power. many of the producers who work on my show are quite young and we have a whole learning session of iran contra and what all those aspects were and yet because they are farther back in time we don't think of our nation as culpable and responsible for the horrors that emerge despite the fact that weaponry training and sort of cover, political cover were given to these things. >> everybody makes political decisions in the moment and they don't think, they don't roll the tape forward. you know, when you're on wall street and you make a decision to make an investment, for example, in theory before you sign the check, you're supposed to ask the question, what can go wrong? and we would expect people on the west wing of the white house to do exactly the same thing. but nobody does that to any

greater extent. you mention saddam hussein, the most surprise person in the universe when we went into iraq was saddam hussein to say, wait a minute, i'm your guy. i'm trying to keep the iranians at bay and you're invading me. every decision we make we do in the moment and the consequences, the unintended consequences we never really think of. >> but i wonder, does that change that american world -- so, if we are saying that as a super power, the nature of power is different in this new world, if it's not going to be military, should it also not be a sort of framed morality that is, in fact, not quite sustainable? >> we should use the international institutions that we wrote. that we created. we should use them. we should push for an impartial investigation and then stand back. >> stick with us, you may have heard today was supposed to be very, very big day on the calendar. major international news, not about ukraine or russia or israelis or palestinians but another major international news

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try fixodent plus gum care. it helps stop denture movement and prevents gum irritation. fixodent. and forget it. after a decade long stand deoff between iran and today was supposed to be the day that an agreement between iran and six of the world's most powerful nation put that question to rest. the talks between iraq and the six nations, including the united states, were to culminated for iran to put long-term restrictions in exchange for the lifting of sanctions against iran. yesterday all seven countries released a joint statement announcing that the one agreement they had reached at the end of the talks was on the need for more talking. citing significant gaps on some core issues, diplomats decided on a four-month extension and a new deadline of november 24th. the stealemate in negotiations

which would have been the biggest headline out of the middle east today has taken a back seat to the continuing escalation of violence in gaza. tank shells from the army that began last night and continue under to the morning sent thousands fleeing from their homes and killed at least 60 palestinian people. today, both sides consented to a two-hour humanitarian cease-fire requested by the red cross to allow medics to treat injured palestinians but fighting began less than an hour after an agreement on the temporary truce when losing combat operations after being shot at by hamas. the latest reports we have indicate both sides may be trying again with a two-hour extension of the original cease-fire agreement. we'll have the latest on the israeli/palestinian conflict in just a moment. but first i want to go to kristen welker. let me ask you about that nuclear arms deal with iran. the administration agreed to the extension, but how much hope is there now that any deal could be

reached? >> you recall when president obama said these talks first started a 50/50 chance they could get a broader deal done. the administration says, look, it was worth extending these talks because they have seen progress. they argue that iran has capped part of its nuclear stockpile. they say that it has most importantly allowed some international inspectors to view its nuclear program but senior administration officials say there's still large gaps and that is why it was worth it to give this four-month extension. to give you a sense of those gaps, melissa, you recall last week that david gregory spoke with iran's foreign minister that says iran sees no advantage to developing a nuclear weapon. those met with fierce criticism here on both sides of the aisle.

lawmakers who said that was just a ridiculous notion. that gives you a sense of just how far apart all of these sides are. not surprisingly, the president did get some criticism, particularly, from conservatives who say that this deal shouldn't have been extended. chairman ed royce said this. he said, "it looks like the iranians want extra time with a good cop/bad cop routine." calling for stiffer sanctions and looking forward a little bit, a lot of pressure on the administration to either get a deal done by that november deadline or to different sanctions if that doesn't happen. melissa? >> thank you so much for joining us this morning. >> absolutely. i want to bring us back into this conversation and go to precisely what kristen was talking about there. let's play a little bit of that "meet the press" moment where there was an attempt by the iranian and foreign minister to shift the paradigm on what iran might want relative to nuclear weapons. let's take a listen.

>> i do not believe that you need this mentality that you feel it doesn't make anybody safe. have they made pakistan safe? israel safe? have they made the united states safe? have they made russia safe? all these countries are susceptible and no amount of military power makes you safe. so, we need to live in a different paradigm and that's what we are calling for. >> here he is calling for a different conception of what power even is and constitutes and we just heard from kristen welker that was met with fierce criticism. >> it is very alarming. the idea there is if iran has a nuclear weapon it's not going to shift and not a game changer in the region and, of course, a nuclear iran would very much be a game changer in the region. not only for u.s. strategic interest, but also for the gulf countries and then also israel. so, this is a big concern. so these talks i think have produced some results, not the results that we want. otherwise, i don't think they would have been extended for another four months. the fact that the extension has

been accompanied by defreezing some of the assets that the u.s. has frozen is also a promising sign, perhaps a positive sign and the u.s. administration is really hoping that by the november deadline see the agreement, at least the party should be closer together on this. >> let me give you one brief statistic that will tell you how far we are apart. we want iran to have no more than 5,000 high-speed gas cen r centerfuges. >> the point is completely right. we are fundamentally completely far apart. because of the changing nature and because the united states so desperately wants to accept iran as a power because we can't overthrow it, they have changed the whole vocabulary. it's not 200,000, what they're talking about separative work units because this is what

they're going to roll out over the next four months. we're not talking about se centrifuges. if we could swallow it independent civil -- >> i have to say, as i was listening to that "meet the press" interview this is why i should not be sentenced to be a diplomat. i was buying what he was selling. i appreciated the notion of a new paradigm of what constitutes power. >> you know, i was in the bush administration, i served both administrati administrations. i had had to resign and one of the issues was over iran. the bush administration was getting ready, had plans to bomb iran. in 2007, the cia was so disturbed by that that for the first time ever they made public their consensus view that iran was not building nuclear weapons and that stopped the bush administration dead in its

tracks. from 2007 until today, there has never been any real accusation from the u.s. government itself that they're building nuclear weapons. the idea that they want nuclear weapons is something that we have created to try to use to undermine them. >> we'll shift our focus. when we come back we'll talk about a specific way of thinking about conflict, when we return. woooo. i know what you're thinking. you're thinking beneful. [announcer]and why wouldn't he be? beneful has wholesome grains,real beef,even accents of spinach,carrots and peas.

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playing there. in fact, just minutes before we entered the hotel returning back to our hotel, i stopped and started playing with these little boys in front of our hotel kicking the soccer ball around. we went our separate ways and minutes later we heard these explosions. turned out the boys that we were speaking to right before we went inside were those very same kids that were killed. >> the grief of the palestinian mother reacting to the news that her son was one of the boys who was killed lays bear the toll of the war, not only on the lives of those lost, but also those who are left to live through it. joining me from gaza ahman. very nice to see you. tell me the latest on what you've been seeing in terms of this question of the experience. >> melissa, right now the situation has been focused on the eastern part of the gaza strip. it is this scene of some of the most intense fighting since the israeli ground invasion began and, obviously, as there always

is, there are two sides of the developments that happened today. according to israeli sources, part of the ground invasion that was unfolding as it has over the past several days involved heavy fighting and we understand from israeli sources there was an attack on an entry point by some of the israeli forces that entered in the eastern part of the gaza strip. and it was there that the israeli military suffered casualties and catastrophic attack on one of their vehicles right there. the israelis sent in more reinforcements that led to heavy bombardment of the eastern strip. as a result of that shelling, there was a spike in the casualties today. according to palestinian medical sources, at least 60 people, including women and children killed alone today making it one of the deadliest days so far for palestinians in gaza. now, we had a chance to go to the morgue a few hours ago in this humanitarian cease-fire that the israelis allowed palestinian paramedics and residents of the area to go into

that neighborhood, recover some of the bodies that were killed in the fighting to recover some of the injured and recover some of those trapped and not able to get to medical facilities and some were evacuated during the cease-fire and at the scene of that morgue, it was a very chaotic scene and very emotional and a lot of tension, if you will, as families were identifying bodies. some of them collapsing in grief after realizing they were the relatives that had had been killed in the fighting and you can probably hear off in the distance some of that soft shelling. that is the sound of israeli artillery and air strikes continuing to bombard the gaza strip, melissa. >> thank you for your reporting. stay safe. joining me now from gaza is someone who lives with the reality of war every day. lara is a palestinian journalist, translator and freelance photographer who lives in the center of gaza city and she joins me this morning via skype. very nice to see you this morning.

>> can you repeat, please. >> lara, are you able to hear me? >> yes, i can hear you now. >> tell me, what is it we need to know that the world needs to know about the daily experience you're living with in gaza? >> we are experiencing that every day and every night. we cannot sleep well at night. we are stuck in our homes i can't count them to now because they are a lot. most of the buildings now and i can hear some shelling now in the eastern gaza strip. we are doing live stream now from our apartment. we are living at the 1th floor now and we ecan see the north and the south of gaza strip. we cannot just get out from our home. there's no people in the streets and there's no work, no schools

and not even markets and some of the buildings have no water until now. >> for so many of us, the death of children has been part of the hardest reality to cope with. for children who are living through the circumstances you just discussed, how are parent talking to them about it? how are they managing it? >> during the bombing i just hear the screaming of the children are screaming and crying around the area and a lot of the children now are afraid and they have some psychological impacts now. they just cannot sleep like any normal child at night. they cannot just go and play like any normal child also. also, i think that it's hard for them to see or to know that some other children and civilian

children were killed like them. so, i think they are afraid and they just didn't know what they are going to do. i think that their parents are very afraid about them. they just cannot. they hold them in their arms and just try to get the fear out from them. but they cannot because the bombing is still going and going. >> lara, thank you so much for joining us and thank you for the live stream that allows all of us to see what you are seeing. thank you. when we come back, i'm going to bring my panel back in and i want to talk to my friend and colleague amaney of this question of the lived experience and if anything justifies this kind of war. to get your fiber. try phillips fiber good gummies. they're delicious and an excellent source of fiber to help support regularity. mmmm. these are good! the tasty side of fiber.

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population is under rocket fire and they have to be in bomb shelters within 60 to 90 seconds. so, i'm not just talking about new york, new york, washington, chicago, detroit, san francisco, miami, you name it. that's impossible. you can't live like that. that was israely prime minister netanyahu with wolf blitzer this morning. there we have the prime minister of israel talking about the lived experience and we talked about folks with lived experience in gaza. seems like such madness this is causing so much fear for so many. >> really senseless and shameful what's happening here. this bombing of civilian areas in gaza as a deterrent to hamas is not going to yield any results. we know this, this is just the killing of innocent children on the ground. just really has to stop. the fact that there is no outcry from the world community.

the u.s., europe, united nations has been really set on this is shocking. it's sending the message that palestinian life does not matter. that palestinians have no, they have no other alternative to resort to because the world community does not take them serious. we know, melissa, we know hamas is engaged in cease-fires with israel. this is not the status quo and there have been moments of peace and calm between israel and hamas. the question, the real issue, the core issue that nobody is talking about is that gaza has been undersiege, especially since the departure. there was a tunnel industry that had brought in some revenue to gaza, but since the departure, the tunnels have all been but destroyed and there is no revenue, no economic growth. people are devastated. positive r poverished. >> the response over the last week, week and a half from israel we bombed civilian

targets because hamas uses civilians to hide their weaponry and the resistance. >> so then we just go in and we kill children because of that. i mean, we either, you either think of a strategic way of removing hamas that is not about dropping bombs on children. i mean, this is in complete violation of every international law, human rights conventions and so forth. you just don't drop bombs on civilian populations. yes, hamas is striking bombs at israel, but we know that a military resolution is not going to come about this. there needs to be a political solution. >> let's listen to secretary of state john kerry talking about this latter part that you just said what else is israel meant to do but this. then i'll come to you hillary. >> israel has been under attack by rockets. i don't think any nation in the world would sit there while rockets are bombarding it and you know that there are tunnels from which terrorists have come,

you know, jumping up in the dead of night. some with handcuffs and with tranquillizer drugs on them in an obvious effort to try to kidnap people and then hold them for ransom. the fact is, that is, that is unacceptable by any standard anywhere in the world. and israel has every right in the world to defend itself. >> colonel jacobs? >> i don't disagree. i do agree a military solution, there isn't going to be military. trying to solve political problems by military means whether you're israel or you're hamas is not going to work. will never work. >> but there is a legal solution that we have repeatedly blocked the united nations and that is to allow a state of palestine to sign up to adhere to the international criminal court. samantha power our ambassador there has made it her number one priority every month to meet with institutional institutions and block the entry to the state of palestinian to get legal protection. legal protection would constrain

israeli power and that's why we oppose it. but it would also constrain hamas. that's why it's an equitable, legal, durable solution. but we have continued to block it. >> that, the one state with only one-state solution. >> that notion that the u.s. is the primary actor here. clearly, an important actor. but i'm wondering if there is a way u.s. involvement. part of what you were saying was that you feel there hasn't been sufficient outcry and part of what we hear is that for hamas there is a strategic interest in generating more human suffering in order to create the international -- i'm suggesting that this is, this is what we hear. that strategic interest is and what we hear often from those on the sort of official side of israel is, yes, this seems like this horror, but we are not alone in generating this horror. >> let's look back. you have the gaza strip. it's home to 1.8 million palestinians. it so happens that hamas rules

the gaza strip. gaza is not going to go away. it was elected. whether or not it still enjoys the same levels of popularity. but it's there. gaza has been completely shut off from the rest of the world. nothing goes really into gaza. people can't leave gaza. people are just basically imprisoned on that strip of land. you have to give the people of gaza the right to life. that's for where the premise starts from. there should be an immediate cease-fire but after the cease-fire the people of gaza need to be able to have a dignified life and they need to be protected and they can't be basically held hostage by israel, day in and day out and now egypt and then the united states needs to play a more honest role in securing an outcome that is going to give the palestinians the right to live. >> is that possible? >> no. it's not possible. i do like the idea of multi-national involvement. that's the only way that people with any capability.

>> any time they go to the united nations, the u.s. blocks it. multi-national efforts to resolve this. the world opinion is far more favorable. the u.s. exercises its veto day in and day out at the u.n. to block palestinians from having a decent standard of living. >> well, it's going to require. if you want a multi-national solution to this problem, it's going to require people not just the united states, but other nations involved and they do not -- >> most of the world comes down on the side of this humanitarian crisis cannot persist. >> a body of international that came out of world war ii and came out of the persecution of the jewish people. there is a body of international law that was institute and that was created with the u.s. hand, with europeans. so this would never happen to another people again. they are a protected civilian population under occupation. that's the law. the united states should get out of the way. >> hillary mannleverett. coming up next, the latest on the downing of malaysian

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today his doctor has him on a bayer aspirin regimen to help reduce the risk of another one. if you've had a heart attack be sure to talk to your doctor before you begin an aspirin regimen. welcome back i'm melissa harris perry. the plane allegedly shot down by the surface to air missile on thursday. that missile reportedly fired from an area of ukraine controlled by pro-russian separatists according to the u.s. government. the attack took the lives of the 298 passengers and staff onboard. global forces have spent the past three days working to determine who is at fault, the russian and ukrainian governments have denied involvement in the downing of the plane, as have separatists in ukraine. this morning the leader of the separatists say that they have control of the plane's black box and plan to turn it over to international civilian aviation officials.

earlier this morning, the ukrainian national security and defense council spokesman had accused the separatists of hiding evidence of a russian missile. he also said that russia placed troops and heavy weaponry along the border. the military of transport expressed concern of the integrity of the crash site being compromised. >> interfering with the scene of the crash undermining itself. any action that prevent us from learning the truth about what happened to mh17 and failure to stop such interference would be a betrayal of the life that we lost. >> this morning, the u.s. secretary of state john kerry appeared on nbc "meet the press" and continue to build the pressure on vladimir putin. >> it is clear that russia supports the separatists, supplies the separatists, encourages the separatists and trains the separatists and

russia needs to step up and make a difference here. >> let's go live now to moscow and nbc news correspondent jim mu seeda. jim, what is the response in moscow to the statements coming from the united states and else where around the world? clearing assigning this culpability to putin and his cabinet. >> yes, that's right. well, putin has publicly blamed ukraine already. he did that on friday for the tragedy because, basically, the ukrainian army he said broke the cease-fire and then there wouldn't be, there wouldn't have been this tragedy if there had been a cease-fire. now, he wouldn't comment, he said he would not comment on that, again, on the investigation until there were some results. and he stuck pretty much to that. the kremlin has gone silent since friday on the malaysia air crash. it did say yesterday, however, that it was adding 12 americans to its own travel ban list in

retaliation, the kremlin said for the latest round of u.s. sanctions imposed on russia last week. but other government officials, mu li melissa, have stepped up. there has been a lot of social media expression of a generalized anger here felt by russians against what one official calls the west geopolitical frenzy. what they see as an indictment of putin and russia before any investigation of the facts has even begun. one of putin's closest advisors tweeted yesterday that the u.s. was "acting like a bad surgeon who cuts deeper and then sews things up sloppily so that it hurts even longer." that pretty much reflects what russians have been telling us today. we spoke to a whole array of russians in the streets. they feel the same, the same thing that they simply wouldn't trust anything that the ukrainian military or the

ukrainian government says just as the ukrainians shouldn't or wouldn't expect to believe anything they see on russian state tv. that's because there is a deep seeded propaganda war being fought out here parallel to the real war in ukraine. now, all the russians we spoke with today said they support putin, but that they would reconsider that if he was found even partially guilty by an independent inquiry. they all said western headlines like putin's victims or putin's missile are just wrong. they said they thought that was extremely over the top, emotional and very unhelpful. melis melissa, back to you. >> jim maceda in moscow, thank you for your continued reporting. >> joining me at the table, senior fellow at the at lntic council program on transatlantic relations. i want to play for you something that happened on this show yesterday. the former u.s. ambassador to ukraine. i asked him about how this might

inflame or reduce tensions within ukraine itself and this was the response. >> there is no internal conflict in ukraine. what you have right now is not a civil war as your correspondent in moscow said. what you have is an irregular war led by russia against ukraine. >> there is no ukraine civil war is what he said. give me your assessment of that. >> that is absolutely true. if you look at the composition of the fighting forces and if you look at the leadership, the top people of the self-proclaimed and that's people's republic. one guy was living in russia until a couple months ago and then moved to crimia and then was redeployed in ukraine. that's the prime minister that we saw on an earlier segment. the guy who is taking, blamed for the shooting down of the plane, resigned his commission on march 31st and three days

later he appears with a large military force of special forces, commandos and moves in to take over a key small city in the eastern, eastern ukraine. they just brought in a guy to head their security structures. he was working for 20 years in the russian onclave. the enclave that russia created where he ran an institution called the kgb. they didn't even change the name. there is a lot of evidence that the real sort of strategy, the tactics and the operational work is being led by russian operatives. sure, there is a lot of people in eastern ukraine who was disgruntled with the government in kiev. but none of them, most of them were not inclined to go to war. they were organizing protests, takeovers of government buildings and doing civic resistance. >> a critique of one's government without -- >> it was a pretty active critique. the point is, putin saw this as a signal that eastern ukraine is

right for also breaking away. he miscalculated and i think some of these russian operatives have given interviews where they sort of, they have been very open in saying, we're having a hard time recruiting people. they're paying people fairly large amounts of money to join these irregular forces and the total amount of people who are fighting are about 12,000 to 14,000 in the surgeoncy of eastern ukraine and about a third have come across the border from russia. >> now we're in a circumstance where the loss of responsibility of the russian-led ukrainian separatists and the ukrainian government when it happens over their land space or over putin's government. what are the destabilizing possibilities given that we are talking now about civilians who were innocent, who were killed, who were talking about their remains potentially being moved by these rebels. how fast could they, when i'm

watching someone from malaysia and something happen in ukraine, it feels global in its capacity to destabilize. >> look, i think in some sense it could be a stabilizing factor. mr. putin was running a clandescent operation. moving a material and men across the borders supplying weapons. he has said to have removed some of those weapons. those weapons that took down the plane and similar anti-aircraft weapons have been moved back to the russian side of the border. so, the scrutiny, international scrutiny, international pressure and the change in the balance of whether you're going to use sanctions. nobody in the west is going be ready to militarily intervene. the one issue, will ukraine be given lethal weapons to beef up its military forces. but the -- >> over and against putin. >> over and against the insurgents. the ukrainians are very aware of

the military power of russia. russia has very substantial military power. the only issue is can they create a sort of a deterrent and i think that mr. putin had a different end game. he thought it was going to be easy. he thought it was going to be like crimea. one or two people were killed in crimea and he took over a population of 2.5 million. he thought it might be a bit more messy. n now not only messy involving europe and asia and i think it's an opportunity for him to, i'm glad in a sense that jim maceda reported that in russia putin has been silent for the last couple days. it means that he's not putting himself into a box and i actually do think that this is a make or break moment. it allows putin to walk this back to say that there is a distance between some of these guys to sort of blame them for this, if it is putin thput prov it or it ups the ante.

if he's all in with them, then i think the world becomes more dangerous. also just all the isscrutiny creates a better opportunity to maybe look for a standdown. >> and a quiet putin might mean one that is considered taking a different path. that would be interesting to see. thank you so much for being here this morning. when we come back, we'll talk about the messiness of big stories here at home. can you pick me up at 6:30? ah... (boy) i'm here! i'm here! (cop) too late. i was gone for five minutes! ugh! move it. you're killing me. you know what, dad? i'm good. (dad) it may be quite a while before he's ready, but our subaru legacy will be waiting for him. (vo) the longest-lasting midsize sedan in its class. introducing the all-new subaru legacy. it's not just a sedan. it's a subaru. go ahead, run in the halls, put your feet on the furniture, jump on the bed. the rules can wait, it's time to play freely,

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a change is coming to america. a change that may reconfigure who we are and how we see ourselves. america is browning. in 2008, the pew research center projected that by 2050, america will no longer have any single racial group that constitutes a majority. in other words, pew projected in a few short decades white people

will be a minority within the united states. that means that by 2050, the latino share of the u.s. population could reach as high as 29%, african-americans at 13% and asian americans up to 9%. that would equal a grand total of 51%. no longer a minority. pew's numbers and their timeline are not hard fact certainties but projections based on immigration patterns, birth rates and current global and national trends, but they point to a likely outcome. an america that is increasingly characterized by citizens who are not white. data released in the conversation about them became robust just as the presidential campaign of a young senator from chicago was hitting its stride. as a result, the election of america's first black president became tied with a conversation about the browning of america and that means this story is not just about demographics. this story is about politics. and the politics of the browning america have become both more

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a record 11.2 million latino voters turned out in 2012, but that is just a hint of a power of latino voters. by the middle of the century, latinos in the u.s. would make up 29% of the population. look at the power of latino vote in key political states right now. 14% of active registered voters in florida are latino. 26% of eligible voters in texas are latino. the same holds for california where 26% of eligible voters are latino. the political calculus is clear, to be a viable, national candidate for office and to be a viable candidate even at the local level, you must be able to appeal to latino voters. but by no means are latino voters a singular political

block or focused on any issue. immigration, in other words, is not the whole story. right now in los angeles, the annual conference of the national council is taking place and larassa the largest civil rights and advocacy organization in the country and, yes, immigration is a topic, but, so, too, are a vast array of other issues. issues ranging from fair housing, health and wellness and, of course, electrical politics. want to know what america is going to care about today and tomorrow and what political leaders are going to need to address? larassa is a good place to start. joining me at the table, attorney and nbc news contributor. christina author of "the trouble with unity." latino politics and the creation of identity and jane-jun political professor and author of "politics of belonging, race, immigration and public opinion." also joining us from the national conference in los

angeles is clarissa martinez and civic engagement for the national council, so nice to have you this morning. >> good morning. >> so, what is on the agenda heading into the mid-term election cycle? >> concerned about the economy, particularly about good jobs that allow them to support their family. education is a big issue, as well. the other bread and butter issues that consider any other red blooded american. the discussion from immigration. the reality is that immigration is a defining issue and a proxy that allows our economy to see how politicians are talking about our community because they've melded in that way in the political arena. >> that's a useful idea there. this notion of a proxy issue

which may not be the central or key or even most important issue and somehow gives insight into whether or not a politician is sort of on our side or not. talk to me about how that works and sort of what counts as those proxies or those key words or those sort of behaviors and policies that you're looking towards. >> well, there's a couple of things. immigration as a policy issue is very important and, particularly, when the debate around immigration started getting very toxic. whenever it does that, our community feels the backlash regardless of immigration status. 70% are united states citizens but whenever there is a toxic debate on immigration, we all feel the treatment because many of us are made to feel suspect in our communities. so, that's how we look at the debate. in addition, over 60% of latinos know somebody who is undocumented. therefore, the ebb and flow on

the debate on what we are doing to make sure we have effective immigration policies are also very deeply. >> i want to come to my panel. i want to ask you, in part, as we're looking towards a political reality, which latino voters are increasingly critical, how do you manage to not simply have elected officials and politicians who perform a certain kind of practices towards, in order to attract latino voters but acchal more substantively engage with latino communities? >> i think it's difficult right now because as clarris mentioned it does cloud out many other issues. to jump back for a while before the immigration debate really heated up in 2006, 2007, the latino community was really quite divided on that issue, much like the rest of the country. that all changed with all the republican rhetoric, the conservative rhetoric and i think we're seeing some of that right now with this crisis on the border because people might be surprised to know that the

pew polling shows that, again, the latino community, they don't all think these child migrants should stay. half think they should go back. watch what happens from now as the conservatives ramp up the anti-immigrant talk and it could well change that calculus again. >> this is such an important point. when we look at the internal politics within aphroacon american communities, we see a lot of rhetoric and anxiety and concern about welfare or about food stamps and all. but as soon as it turns into a toxic political debate in which welfare and blackness get connected, boy, then attitudes shift in part because there is that pushback. is that the same kind of thing we're talking about here? >> definitely. when you have that coated language and all of a sudden you have a sense of collective assault. i think that has happened. happened around the issue of gender and reproductive rights. a huge amount of diversity among women and when you start attacking them in that way. one of the really interesting issues and i always feel i wish

we would say more often, latino communities. it's plural. pluralizing it doesn't take away from the fact that there is this massive assault and the other thing that is interesting here, we talked about latinos versus latino voters. latino voters have citizenship. all latino voters are citizens. it's incredibly powerful for some folks and increedably meaningful and they're co-workers, family members are undocumented and for other people, it's an issue somewhat far away and watching on television and have a variety of political opinions about it and i think we forget about that when we talk about latinos. we have to talk about the difference with citizenship. >> the point christina just made on the kind of pluralizing not on community, but communities and how particularly for a civil rights organization like la raza you do the work of acknowledging the distinction in latino identities as you are attempting to doing some unifying political

work. >> yeah, this is one of those interesting things. i think often there is a tendency to try to fit people in a box, right? and with latinos, that gets a lot complicated because we are a mixture of all the people of the americas. we can be black, we can be white, we can be native americans. so, it gets a little complicated. the reality is that for us as a national organization, we work on issues on which there is a lot of consensus in our community that they need to be addressed. and, so, there is either empathy or direct or direct identification with those issues. again, we know that the economy is a big issue, good jobs. good education. and it makes sense, right? people want to make sure they have a job to provide for their family and a good education system that will allow their kids to do better what they did. where immigration comes in is that it starts affecting everybody, regardless of

immigration status. we saw that in arizona where latinos started saying if people get an equal treatment, i'm going to get that treatment because people just immediately assume that i'm undocumented by being latino. >> have a great rest of your conference and thank you for joining us. >> thank you. up next, we're going to talk about the long history of fear mongrg and immigration and bring in some more voices. everything life throws my way. except for frown lines. those i'm throwing back. olay total effects nourishing vitamins and seven beautiful benefits in one. for younger-looking skin. olay. your best beautiful. i will never choose between uv protection and beauty again. new olay total effects now with spf 30. uva/uvb protection and anti-aging in one. youthful skin with a mission. olay. your best beautiful. so, what'd you think of the house? did you see the school rating? oh, you're right. hey, babe, i got to go.

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immigration debate has become so heated that the current refugee crisis at the border has become insneered in the rhetoric and taking two separate issues and into one of much of the public's mind. two weeks ago mayor alan long scored hundreds of residents to protest and block the federal government's effort to drop off refugee kids at the border patrol station for processing. similar to protests over

immigration reform like the one in lansing, michigan. the refugee crisis at the border is more that we know about those fleeing persecution than what it is about undocumented immigration. a cingsingular fear the misinformation around the people involved continues to grow. public safety to public health, but that's not anything new. the irish, they were falsely charged with bringing cholera with them when they came in the 1960. in 1900 put into quarantine for bubonic plague. this week in slate jamelle reminded us of long history of scare mongring citing one of the most recent examples. from republican congressman retired doctor to the cdc alleging "reports of illegal migrants carrying deadly diseases such as the swine flu,

and the ebola virus which there are zero reported cases in the americas stemming from the west africa outbreak." jane, okay. so you suggest in your text that the issue of immigration isn't so much about immigration as it is about these notions of belonging and race and identity and difference. is that what is going on here when you're making a claim that people without documentation are carrying ebola. >> well, a lot of reasons why people would want it, rational reasons they would want to give for why people would want to be excluded. that they don't belong here. there have to be rational reasons that politicians and elites and for that matter just the ordinary guy for why we ought to exclude people. >> there are reasons. but that's not what's happening in this particular debate. >> when you think about americans, when you close your eyes and think, who is an

american? who pops into your head? >> the concept of american and the development of citizenship has always resolved around the category of whiteness. all exclusions to citizenship in the united states and belonging for that matter have been based firmly in a racial prerequisite which, earlier on in the history of the united states was explicit, it is not as explicit today. you can't say after the 1965 immigration and nationality act which creates a much different set of preference categories and you wouldn't say the same thing in 1924 we didn't want irish and jews and the point is now that we try to create sets and ways and arguments for why people want to be excluded we can't say race based any more. >> interesting that you say that. that ought to generate a set of, certainly strategic allies, for

example, we treat african-americans and latinos on questions of immigration and yet what we often see is tensions at exactly those places where coalition politics might otherwise happen. i want to play some sound that came out of, again, this question of the refugee children crossing the border. a city in texas, sheila jackson lee, the congressman who was there. they were going to open a school to house the refugee children. this is an african-american mom in the district and her anger about that. >> these immigrants don't have no where to go so you're going to come over here to our neighborhood and open the school up for them, really? is that right? does anybody think that's right? >> what is going to keep them from escaping here and moving around? houston and around trinity garden and what is going to keep them behind this gate? security, really? they can't even control the border. >> that moment of wanting to keep people back and literally

say, we need to build a gate and a border and you closed our school, right? you closed our school and you've taken our public resources and now is there a hope for coalition politics in the context of all of this angst about belonging? >> i think there is. when you are underserving and exploiting certain communities and then they see another community also experiencing resource allocations, of course you're going to get bitterness and frustration and it's going it be aimed at the people below rather than the power above. that is one of the things that good coalition politics has to wrestle with. the other thing that is interesting we talk about whiteness and different populations can attach to. i think what's really scary right now is the way the right is exploiting anti-immigrant sentiment among african-americans as the same time they're exploiting anti-black racism among latinos. both populations can pick up on and deploy and can leverage and that's when it gets really troubling, right?

that's when you have to find a way to escape that. >> one of the key moments of me of sort of watching that play out and the discourse of whiteness that could be appropriated by black and brown bodies when after 9/11 when suddenly it shifted to go to muslims who were racially white and suddenly black folks were white. because of their christian/american identity in this way that was sometimes very troubling. >> what we're seeing right now in the broader picture is the reemergence of immigration as a wedge issue. you know, the definition of us and them, as you mentioned, it can shift and right now there are the anti-immigration reform politicians who are very, very, i would say successfully capitalizing on this border crisis to bring forth, again, a lot of those arguments that we really haven't seen since 2006, 2007 and we're hearing terms like, again, invasion, we're hearing talks about diseases, illegal aliens. that type of language hasn't

been in the discussion for a while and it is taking a toll because we're starting, majority of the country still supports immigration. >> i want to play a little bit of sound. we're getting close. i do want to play so that it's not just like you saying we're hearing this kind of thing. i will play a little bit of sound and then we'll go out. this is a u.s. congressman basically making a claim about public safety relative to undocumented immigrants. >> they've committed at least 7,695 sexual assaults. you want to talk about a war on women? this administration will not defend the women of america from criminal aliens. >> i just wanted you to know that that happened. when we come back, did you know there is a national association of immigration judges? well, there is and they have a president.

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57,000 children, that is the number of uncompanied minors who tried to enter the united states since last october with an estimated 90,000 expected by september. these children are put into custody and are afforded full court proceedings, so while the humanitarian crisis at the border has had its impact on federal agents, local communities and volunteer relief agencies also bearing an added stress is the legal system. new data show immigration courts are extremely backlogged. more than 375,000 immigration cases are already pending in u.s. immigration courts and 42,000 of those cases involve juveniles. that's why $62 million of president obama's $3.7 billion congressional request is for the department of justice. for additional immigration judges and legal representation for the children crossing the border. that brings us to the republicans blocking that money.

as mother jones reported last week the courts were overwhelmed even before the children began showing up, in large part, because the republicans unwillingness to fund and staff them like other federal courts. joining us now from san francisco is judge danna lee marks who is president of the national association of immigration judges. so nice to have you. >> thank you so much for the invitation. the court is described as a kind of legal cinderella. why is that? >> we call ourselves the legal cinderellas because we're often the forgotten piece of the equation when it comes to immigration law enforcement. we got about 2% of the budget allocations that have gone towards the overall enforcement system and, yet, we are charged with providing due process to the individuals who come before us. so, it's a very difficult situation. >> judge, i was reading some of the documents that you sent and at one point read that the

number, the average number of days that a case is pending is 578 before a decision is reached. is that a human rights issue? >> it's very interesting because a lot of people are cynical and think that someone who is here undocumented is going to want to delay in their court proceedings. but in actuality, the majority of the cases that are prejudice by the long delays in the immigration court system are the cases of individuals who are ultimately going to be granted some form of benefit or relief under our immigration laws. so, it has the opposite effect to what you would have hoped. the good cases suffer and it's the weak cases that benefit. >> it's not extent to civil cases. that means that some young people who are showing up before the courts, in fact, do not have attorneys. as a judge, how do you

adjudicate a case when there is no attorney and there is a child, a juvenile who, for example, may not even speak english? >> it is very, very difficult. it's true that the immigration proceedings are considered civil in nature. that means someone is not entitled to an attorney at government expense. they can pay for their own attorney. they can seek volunteer attorneys to represent them. but nationwide 40% of the proceedings that come before an immigration judge are without any attorney to represent them. cases come before us in 260 different languages. we use foreign language interpreters. only 17% of the cases which are before the court are in english. now, that sounds complicated enough but add to that complexity the issue of a minor child, perhaps unaccompanied. then it's extremely difficult because the judge has the

responsibility of explaining to someone what their rights are. what their potential remedies are and to make sure that that person understands sufficiently to be able to provide the information needed to the judge in order to make a fair decision. those are the kinds of proceedings that need to go slowly and deliberately, not faster. >> now, what you've described is already a pretty daunting reality. but then add to that, i just don't want my viewers to not know this that you're dealing with massive hardware failures on your computer systems that took the courts offline for five weeks back in april. that as judges, you fail to have something that almost every other judge has, which includes the capacity to hold people in contempt of your court, meaning you have less control and authority over your own courtroom. what kinds of resources both financial and apparently new laptops and, you know, in terms of sort of your authority do you need in order to make this a

fairer and more reasonable immigration process? >> there is a long list that the national association of immigration judges has put together and advocated before congress. the first thing we need are judicial law clerks. those are trained attorneys who help judges. the district courts, for example, usually have three to four attorney employees that help every judge. the immigration courts have one judicial law clerk shared between three or four different judges. so, i joke that i have one quarter of a law clerk's time. we need to have modernized equipment and we need to have more security. we need to have real-time transcripts of our proceedings. i mean, there is a host of technological things, but, most of all, in this crisis situation, iner ereorder to giv process we need more judges as well as more judicial law clerks

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>> i believe that we will one day have to answer for our actions and our inactions. my faith teaches that if a stranger dwells with you in your land, you shall not mistreat him. but rather love him as yourself for you were strangers in the land of egypt. >> the governor of massachusetts duval patrick talking about his decision to welcome some of the undocumented refugee children to his state. well, as i was listening to kind of the emotion of the governor in that context, you were telling a kind of, you painted a chilling picture during the commercial break of 10 year olds in immigration court.

>> right. not unusual. in fact, i believe it was last year the "new york times" had a big story about someone testifying in immigration court and telling a story to a judge to an interpreter, he was 6 and interpreter, he was 6. that is not uncommon. as the judge pointed out, part of the problem is, we just don't have enough immigration judges because many of the republicans in congress see them as somehow being potential advocates for immigrants. but the other part of the problem is for the immigration system, we believe about 15 million, i believe for legal representation for these children at the border and we need it to be both for an effective system. we need more judges but we also need more access to legal representation for many of these young people, these kids. >> so jane, maybe i'm being a little optimistic and naive. but for me f. we could reframe

the immigration story, instead of it being what the texas representative was saying about the scary illegals coming to attack your children, we have 6-year-olds sitting on phone books trying to talk to a judge in a language that is not their native tongue. are we able to see the humanity of the children of people who are racially, nationally, ethnically different from us? >> the united states has a refugee policy, a long-standing one. for example, between -- before world war ii, we systematically denied admission and refugees who were fleeing the holocaust and german occupation at that time. what cannot happen in the process is trying to understand who we are as a nation because who we are as a nation is very

much defined just as governor nor patrick noted. who is it that should belong? who is it -- who are we as a nation to say, you can come in and you can't. why do we justify this? much of it has to come from not just ordinary people who have the ability to be impacted, to understand, to recognize their own immigrant history and how this creates a nation of immigrants that we are but also the political leadership on both sides of the aisle to recognize what it is about us as a country that welcomes outsiders to become insiders. >> judge, i want to come to you on this because part of what i'm hearing on the table is about the value of deliberation and it's something that i heard you say before the break, that actually taking more time rather than less time may be the value. is there a way that we can communicate that effectively to our political leaders, that everyone wants to work on and solve this crisis but to do so

shouldn't be about moving up the timeline but create more resources for deliberation? >> the immigration judges have long felt that immigration court reform should be the bipartisan sweet spot of the whole immigration debate. the reason being, if you add more resources to the immigration court system, then we are going to go more quickly, more efficiently, which is going to be favorable to those who believe in enforcement first. but at the same fintime, we're going to be ard toing more due process and that, of course, is important to those advocating on behalf of the immigrants before us. so the immigration judges believe that structural reform is necessary and we need resources and in the long run, we believe that immigration courts should be taken out of the department of justice, which is a law enforcement agency and to assure neutrality and

transparency so they feel confident that it's afforded to those coming before us, we should be reconstituted as an article 1 court and being that we have more independence and judicial neutrality, hopeful three would mean that we have sufficient resources to get the job that we are being assigned done in a way that allows america to show its best face of justice to the noncitizens who come before us. because it's often the obama face of the american government that they see, and that's important, too. >> we only have 30 seconds, christina. but that bipartisan immigration sweet spot seems to be a shrinking, teeny, tiny dot at this point. >> very teeny tiny. >> is there anyplace that you think still exists for optimism for getting immigration reform done? >> with the republican party the way they are right now and the

democratic party struggling with its own, i'm not sure. what you need is leadership and arguments. we do too much too fast and we do the wrong things fast and the wrong things slow. like, i think we really need to think more about -- also, we should talk more about the li s limits of migration. we need to talk about global capit capitalism and how these things began and we don't tend to have that conversation. >> you know, my new colleague here on msnbc, judge in san francisco, thank you so much for the clarity of your voice on these issues. i'd also like to thank my guests for being here. raul, jane, john, i want to encourage everyone to visit msnbc.com to take a look at the digital program called nerding out. you're going to see my guest today, raul reyes hosting the legal history that impacted the

very discussion that we are, in fact, having today about the unaccompanied minors coming across the border. go online and nerd it out. also, one note of nerd news, our inde intern, d.j., he is leaving us today. bye summer nerd d.j. just want to wish him well. that's our show for few day. i'll see you saturday at 10:00 a.m. eastern and right now it's time for a preview of ""weekends with alex witt." new questions about the unguarded crash site of malaysian flight mh-17. why have almost 100 others not been found. heartbreaking stories about the victims who perished and the lives they led. solutions at a major conference for the thousands of children caught at the border. and remembered beloved tv and film actor james garner.

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lost and found. a strange scene at the mh-17 crash. a critical item discovered among the debris. but some of the bodies are gone. a cease-fire that should have lasted for hours ends abruptly. excessive force? a deadly ending after police try to make an arrest. take a look. >> don't touch me. [ bleep ]. >> i can't breathe. i can't breathe. >> the story behind this is dent in new york. family reaction and a view of a former law enforcement officer, what should have happened