folly: church processions, banned in nicaragua. the latest clampdown by president daniel ortega, as he seeks to prevent anti-government unrest. opposed by the u.s. and accused of human rights abuses, ortega has also moved closer to china and russia. so, what's next for nicaragua? this is "inside story." ♪ hello, and welcome to the program. i'm folly bah thibault. daniel ortega is one of latin america's great political

survivors. the leftist guerrilla leader who sees power after topping a right-wing u.s. regime in 1979 accepted defeating elections in 1990 but was voted back as president in 2006 and has been in the top job since after three further elections. during this time, he's been accused of increased repression and has been ostracized by the u.s. and its western allies. demonstrations which began five years ago marked the start of the crackdown on dissent. victoria gaytonby has the background. reporter: when president daniel ortega tried to cut welfare benefits to reduce deficit in 2018, people responded with anger and protests. the reforms were later dropped the demonstrations intensified into a movement against ortega and his government. in the months that followed, ortega ordered a crackdown targeting humans rights groups,

journalists, and activists. at least 300 nicaraguans were killed and tens of thousands were forced into exile. ortega faced widespread international condemnation. the un said there was evidence of extrajudicial killings, torture, and arbitrary detentions. the u.s. placed new assumptions on nicaragua -- new sanctions on nicaragua. today the u.s says he's a dictator. recently ortega formed closer ties with russia and china. he is called for the explosion of taiwan as an observer of the central american integration system and wants russia to join the block. >> the yankee military base called taiwan or taipei, that yankee military base must be withdrawn, expelled from the central american integration system. reporter: ortega accuses priests

of backing the 2018 process. -- protests. >> i can tell you faith is the last thing that we catholics are going to lose here in nicaragua. it is the last thing. if we carry it with us, we will be able to do anything. reporter: ortega's sandinistas socialist movement was supported by many on the left worldwide when it seized power from the u.s backed right-wing samosa in 1979. he retains a core of loyal support in the country from those revolutionary days but is accused by opponents of using repression to stay in power. folly: daniel ortega is now in the 17th year of his second stint as nicaragua's leader. this is his fourth consecutive term as president since 2007 despite leading an unpopular government. ortega came to power as a commander in the sandinista guerrilla movement which overthrew nicaragua's dictatorship in 1979. he became president in 1985.

in 1990, he lost power but he stood for and won the presidency in 2006 taking office in january of 2007. he's been president ever since. he's consolidated his control using force to silence dissent while elevating his wife and loyalists to high positions. poverty, natural disasters and the pandemic led to a mass exodus of people from nicaragua to the border with the u.s. for the past few years. ortega has been blamed for not doing enough to strengthen the economy. plenty to discuss with our guests. joining us from managua, ben norton, an investigative journalist and editor-in-chief of geopolitical economy report. a news website. astrid montealegre, a supervising attorney for the nicaraguan american human rights alliance in los angeles. and dan kovalik, a human rights lawyer and author of "nicaragua: a history of us intervention and resistance."

he is joining us from pittsburgh. thank you so much for joining us . a warm welcome to you all. if i could start with you in manaugua, ben, can you tell us the reality of the situation in the country today? what is happening? >> absolutely. we have to understand what's going on in nicaragua today and the historical context of latin america. for 200 years, this is the anniversary of the so-called monroe doctrine in which the united states has treated latin america as its proverbial backyard or joe biden recently said front yard but it shows this very arrogant mentality in which unfortunately washington has not tolerated many independent governments in the region, especially left-wing governments. cuba has been under sanctions, under a blockade for more than 60 years by the united states and every single year at the united nations the entire world

except the u.s. condemns that blockade. in the case of nicaragua, it is a very similar history. you mentioned some of that history including the u.s. support for the contras, these right-wing violent guerrillas that tried to overthrow the government in the 1980's. nicaragua is suffering under in the lateral -- under unilateral sanctions imposed by by the u.s. in violation of international law. the coup in 2019 in bolivia against the indigenous left-wing president eva morales, which was also backed by the trump administration was very similar to what was attempted here in nicaragua entity 18. unfortunately, there were hundreds of deaths. very tragic. but those were deaths on both sides. so when we talk about the deaths in 2018, we're also talking about sandanista activists and police officers who were killed in the case of a

very famous police officer named gabriel ruiz. there's a park here named after him. he was kidnapped and tortured and his body was set on fire by these right-wing insurgents in the coup attempt in 2018. unfortunately we never hear the names of those victims. it's portrayed as a one-sided crackdown on protests when in reality there were protests but there were also violent forces who were trying to overthrow the government. folly: but what is a reality of the situation in the country today in terms of the economy, human rights? you are in nicaragua, tell us about was happening and are there credible achievements the international community is being -- is not seeing and is ignoring perhaps? >> when we talk about the economy in nicaragua, we have to always consider that at least according to nominal gdp, this is the second poorest country in the western hemisphere after haiti. yet despite that, the social services of the sandinista government are pretty

incredible. i'm originally from the united states. i've lived here for several years. in the united states, there's no free universal health care and education. here despite the lack of resources, education is written into the constitution created since the sandinistas came back that education is a right. as well as all levels of health care. i have friends whose parents had cancer and they got cancer treatment for free. whereas in the united states which is very wealthy country the most common cause of bankruptcy is medical bills. in addition there are also significant social services right now. the sandinisa government is is spending large amounts of money with the support from its allies to build tens of thousands of public housing units to the poor and working people. nicaragua is also the safest country in the region. folly: sorry to interrupt you, ben, you paint a picture there

of what looks like a thriving nicaragua. but that does not explain why there is so many nicaraguans leaving the country. 180,000 crossed into the u.s. in the first 11 months of last year. i will come back to that in a moment. i will ask you why people that if things are not as bad as the western world is painting them, why are there nns leaving -- are there nicaraguans leaving? i want to bring dan and astrid into the conversation. ortega has claimed an attempted coup by foreign backers. is there any credibility to those claims? >> absolutely. in fact, the opposition was very vocal about what they wanted. when daniel ortega very quickly announced a peace dialogue to end the crisis, you

had leaders of the opposition including the catholic church calling for daniel ortega to immediately step down and this is a president daniel ortega who a few months before had an 80% approval rating. and they are calling for him to step down. they were very clear that that's what they wanted. and as ben noted you had at lease 22 police -- folly: you mean the americans? >> the opposition with the support of the united states. yes. in fact, the u.s., there was this interesting magazine, global reports, i think it was what it was called, that said that the u.s. helped incite the insurrection in 2018. the u.s. gave millions of dollars to these opposition groups and supported this pilot coup against the government and it should be noted by the

way -- i'm a practicing roman catholic, but the catholic church in nicaragua is incredibly reactionary, they were part of the coup. there were caches of arms found in various churches and various priests oversaw torture in the churches. i met one man who lost his arm after being tortured in the church that he attended. so this is not about repressing the church or oppressing civil institutions. this is about a coup attempt that was violent, that killed -- the statistic that i saw was something like 220 people died during the insurrection. it was found 50-50 on both sides. 22 police officers. and that created billions of dollars in property destruction. and damaged the economy which of course was followed by several rounds of economic

sanctions by the united states. which have done damage to the economy of nicaragua. folly: astrid, let me bring you into the conversation because you work with nicaraguans seeking asylum in the u.s. and their journey to a new life is often a very difficult one. talk to us about their experiences and what they tell you is driving them to leave the country. >> thank you very much for the opportunity. i'd like to mention that despite the allegations that there's been some sort of coup from the right, i must point out that many of the political prisoners that were recently released by the ortega regime were in fact members of the left-leaning ideological political party. mrs. which is not by any stretch of the imagination right or right-leaning. for one instance. for the second instance, in

terms of the social services that are available in nicaragua and respect for the rule of law, public education is a social service as well as health care. but i would like to venture into the quality of both. i lived in nicaragua and had my children and nicaragua and i understand the very limited quality both in social and educational services available from the government. also i'd like to point out that the sanctions are not unilateral. they are not only directed toward the government. they are actually directed towards specific people who have been accused by witnesses and victims in international tribunals for violations of human rights and for violations of their expressed right to travel freely within and outside of the country. they have been hundreds of formal state employees who have not been allowed the right

to leave the country simply for the fact that they are government employees. and i myself have encountered these people. on a daily basis. so i would like to know what is the justification that the "legitimate government" of nicaragua provides for having its own people held captive. folly: then ben, would you like to answer that? because i saw that you were disagreeing with what astrid said. what is the justification the government is giving for arresting all these people? >> there are several points that were very misleading. first of all the so-called mrs party previously known as the movement for the renovation of sandinistas has never been a left-wing party. it created in 1994 by the right wing split out of the party after 1990 and opposed

socialism. they immediately formed an alliance with the right wing in nicaragua including the oligarch eduardo montelegre. that's a completely false claim. second, the claim that the health and and education are of low quality is obsolete ridiculous. when you compare nicaragua to its neighbors, you can't compare it to the u.s. which is a country that became rich through wars and slavery and ethnic cleansing of indigenous people. compared to its neighbors, nicaragua's -- absolutely, nicaragua social services are better than a country like haiti or honduras. it is a preposterous comparison. >> what is driving people to leave then, ben? is it the fear of the ortega government or is it the economic situation of the country that's forcing people to leave? >> i have studied u.s. immigration statistics very closely, and the immigrant outflow out of nicaragua is very

recent. until a few years ago, the vast majority of immigrants from central america and were from honduras, guatemala, and el salvador. something changed recently about a year ago and that was that the u.s. government publicly said that people from nicaragua, cuba, and venezuela are welcome in the u.s. because the u.s. spokeswoman for the biden administration claimed that they were fleeing communism. >> they have increased expert and chilly since 2018. the numbers have not gone up from last year. i'm sorry ben that is clearly just untrue. these numbers have gone up since 2018 and the humanitarian parole was in direct response to those numbers. >> there was a slight increase after 2018 because there were people who were fleeing because again there was violence and instability fueled by the united states and other countries and the violent right-wing opposition but especially in the past year the number of

immigrants has significantly increased because of the saying publicly -- folly: ok, dan, please join us in the conversation. there's a lot of back-and-forth between ben and astrid. let me ask you, dan, you are human rights lawyer, what has changed since 2018? >> again what to change -- what did change after 2018 were several things. people were upset about the violence and instability over the summer. but also the economy was greatly hurt by the insurrection. which of course targeted the economy. the opposition set up all these tranches and barricades around the country. thousands were set up that underlined the economy, prevented commerce, even international commerce. there were truckers going from honduras to costa rica that were stuck in nicaragua.

that was intended to hurt the economy. it did. then the u.s. piled on with sanctions. so of course the economy -- >> the barricades were intended -- >> of course they were. >> -- who were hiding. without arms. >> may i say something? folly: go ahead, dan. you will get to respond, astrid. go ahead, dan. >> they were intended to hurt the economy. they have. of course this is a very typical tactic of blaming the victim. the u.s. imposes sanctions to hurt the economy and it hurts the economy and then the u.s. says, you have a troubled economy. meanwhile let me point out a couple of things -- you asked about some of the good things happening in nicaragua. the u.n. is ranked -- has ranked nicaragua the seventh highest country in terms of gender equality on earth. seventh. the u.s. and the u.k. are not even in the top 10 which is an incredible achievement.

ben mentioned nicaragua has historically been the second poorest country in latin america. in fact, it is now the third poorest. honduras is now the second. after the u.s.-backed who in 2009. -- coup in 2009. the u.s. is very happy to overthrow governments and install dictatorships like it did in honduras in 2009 and like it helped in peru this year. those countries are not isolated and i think that's very important to point out. folly: astrid, you can respond now, both ben and dan say the picture is not as bleak as the us and its western allies painted to be and that there have been some achievements under ortega. what do you say to that? >> if that were the case, we wouldn't be on the show today talking about the hundreds of thousands of nicaraguan exiles who have fled nicaragua not just to the u.s but europe

and costa rica and the rest of the world as well. also i would say that the economy and economics is no reason to turn a line to human rights. we're where we are today because of what the world has done in response to world war ii. there is no reason why we should turn a blind eye to human rights violations in the name of an economy. and yes nicaraguan people may very well be happy, that doesn't mean that they are not being abused by the government meant to protect them. folly: we have seen nicaragua increasingly turning to china and russia. lots of agreements with the chinese and the russians. what can ortega get out of of those relationships? >> i think it is fair to say that nicaragua was forced to return to china and russia because of u.s. economic sanctions. right? which have cut off international financing from

nicaragua. which by the way it was using for social programs. in fact the world bank and imf had applauded the sandinista government's use of ims -- of imf funds for those purposes. when you have to turn to other conversations, that is exactly what danny ortega has done and he is hoping he will get real development help from china and from russia, have new economic trading partners, and again maybe be able to wean nicaragua off the u.s. dollar which the u.s. uses to dominate other countries just like nicaragua. and this is happening around the world. the u.s. right now has about one third of the world's population under sanctions. given that and again all that is the u.s. is able to do through dollar dominance, through so-called dollar diplomacy, which goes back to president

william howard taft, and so countries like nicaragua have no choice but to seek trading partners outside the u.s. sphere of influence. but of course when they do that, then the u.s. blames them for doing it. again this is classic. this is exactly what happened during the country or we are of course nicaragua was forced to turn to the soviet union for help and the u.s. blames them for turning to the soviet union. folly: astrid, your thoughts about this? nicaragua and china signing a series of strategic agreements, trade programs and so on. how much of a concern is this to the u.s. and this is going to help nicaragua in any way you think? >> financially speaking in terms of economics, of course it makes total sense that nicaragua would reach out and diversify. in terms of making its economy sustainable. any country and every country should do that. we shouldn't rely on any other single soul partner -- sole partner.

however, allowing another country to have sovereignty within your territory and giving them access to specific territories that might give them an upper hand in terms of security measures or defense measures when talking to the u.s., now that is something else. when we are talking about if russia or china were to have sovereign territory within nicaragua, they are within missile range of the u.s. folly: ben? >> can i say something to that? first of all, there is no -- i haven't heard any question that they are going to give territory to russia and china. if they want a military alliance with those countries, they are free to do that. folly: they want a military alliance. >> the u.s. has military bases throughout latin america. numerous basis throughout latin america. why does the u.s. got the right

to do that and a country can't invite china or russia or any other country to have a military base if they wanted? not that i'm saying that's going to happen in nicaragua. >> but it's about national security. >> astrid, a country is allowed to do that. i'm sorry. i know you like the munro doctrine obviously since you are saying that they can partner with other countries, outside from the u.s., but that is not how sovereignty works. sovereignty means you can partner with whoever you want. and they are allowed to partner, even militarily. folly: ben, let me ask you about the partnership. >> the question was whether it was in the interest of the u.s. and what is implied for the u.s. [overlapping chatter] folly: ladies and gentlemen, please, let's try and keep things a bit more calm.

ben, let me ask you about the relationship with china and russia. astrid says if it helps nicaragua's economy, why not? but nicaragua needs to be careful about these strategic relationships. what are your thoughts about this? >> first of all, i want to stress that there has been absolutely no indication whatsoever that nicaragua has even for a second considered giving some of its territory to any foreign country. i should point out that actually the united states has militarily occupied nicaragua. the u.s. has militarily occupied nicaragua on three different occasions. this is complete protection. but in terms of china and russia, the relationship is a no-brainer. here's an example, this week while we're speaking the head of china's international development agency visited nicaragua and inaugurated a public housing community in which china is helping nicaragua build

12,000 public housing units for poor and working nicaraguans. the u.s. has the agency for international development which in the 1980s was used to send weapons to the contras on so-called humanitarian aid flights reported by the new york times. and since then usaid has given its so-called development funding to exclusively right-wing opposition organizations against the government. it is a no-brainer. china through its belt and road initiative which nicaragua is now part of is building infrastructure in many countries in the global south including public housing units for poor people and nicaragua and china are building an inter-oceanic canal to challenge the monopoly of the panama canal and that is going to bring a huge rise in economic growth to china and more international commerce. that is why it makes perfect sense for nicaragua to work with china and then of course their governments are both led by socialist parties, so there are ideological similarities.

but the idea that nicaragua is going to give up its territory is absurd considering that there is no indication of that whatsoever. and in honduras, nicaragua's northern neighbor, the largest u.s. military base in the americas is in honduras. the sotokano air base. folly: astrid, i'll give you the last word. ortega supporters have said all along that he has been sending up to bullying from the west and that he is actually a good thing for nicaragua. what would you respond to that and what is next for your country? >> i would respond that if that is the case and there is in fact the required support for the current government of nicaragua, then i would ask for an explanation as to why opposition leaders were incarcerated prior to the last elections in 2017, why nicaraguans have been

stripped of their nationality, and exiled to the united states. and i also would ask when and where are the proofs and evidence of this coup that allegedly took place in 2018 that justified the gross violation of human rights. what are those going to be presented to the world? folly: we will be but they are. thank you all so much for an interesting and heated discussion. it was very good to hear all three of you on this. dan, ben, and astrid, thank you very much once again for joining us. thank you as well for watching. you can watch this program any time by visiting our website, aljazeera.com. for further discussion, go to our facebook page. you can join the conversation on twitter. from me and the whole team here in doha, thanks for watching. bye for now.

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