>> schieffer: today on "face the nation," cain and gingrich. yes, cain and gingrich. the republican field is society but republican voters seem to be taking a second look. businessman herman cain has shot up and is now one of the frontrunners. >> this long shot may not be a long shot any longer. >> schieffer: and former speaker newt gingrich is also making some gains. >> the elite media said several weeks ago this was now a two-person race. and herman and i have decided that may be right but they had the wrong two people. >> schieffer: we will talk to both herman cain annuity gingrich and then get some analysis from michael gerson of the "washington post" and two members of our own cbs news political team: congressional correspondent nancy cordes and political

analyst john dickerson. it's all ahead on "face the nation." captioning sponsored by cbs from cbs news in washington, bob schieffer. >> schieffer: morning again. welcome to face the nation. in the studio with us today herman cain annuity gingrich. i want to ask both of you. you both spoke to the big conservative values conference last week. but the preacher who introduceded rick perry kind of stole all the headlines because he told reporters that more monism is a cult and that mitt romney is not a christian. mr. gingrich, should that be part of the discussion? >> no. i think that none of us should sit in judgment on somebody else's religion. i thought it was very unwise and very inappropriate. >> schieffer: do you think that mitt romney is a christian? >> i think he's a mormon and

they define themselves as a branch of christianity. >> schieffer: your thoughts? >> we're not running for theologian in chief. we're running for president of united states of america. while i believe that the american people want to know what are your values, what are your principles because your values and your principles may impact how you make decisions but not get into the specifics of your chosen religion. >> schieffer: do you think mormons are christians? >> i believe that they believe that they're christians based upon their definition but getting into whether or not they are more christian than another group i don't think that's relevant to this campaign. >> schieffer: all right. let's talk about something that i think both of you will agree is. there are thousands of protestors camped out on wall street and around the country. now mr. kane you suggested they might be there just because they're jealous of people who have good jobs. here's a little of what you said. >> and to be angry at somebody because they're successful is

anti-american in my opinion. secondly, this is a distraction from the failed policies of the obama administration. why be mad you don't have a job at bankers and wall street? they're the ones that create the jobs. >> schieffer: you said first that you think this is a distraction created to draw attention away? what proof do you have of that? >> the proof is quite simply the bankers and the people on wall street didn't write these failed policies of the obama administration. they didn't spend a trillion dollars that didn't work. the administration and the democrats spent a trillion dollars. they're not proposing another $450 billion. the administration is proposing another $450 billion wrapped in different rhetoric. so it's a distraction. so many people won't focus on the failed policies of this administration. >> schieffer: excuse me.

i don't want to interrupt. you're saying that piece these people all got together to draw attention away from barack obama. >> they were encouraged to get together. >> schieffer: who? >> we know that the unions and certain union-related organizations have been behind these protests that have gone on, on wall street and other parts around the country. it's coordinated to create a distraction so people won't focus on the failed policies of this administration. >> schieffer: why is that anti-american? >> it's anti-american because to protest wall street and the bangers is is saying that you're anti-capitalism. the free market system and capitalism are two of the things that have allowed this nation and this economy to become the biggest in the world. even though we have our challenges, i believe that the protests are more anti-capitalism and anti-free mark than anything else. >> schieffer: what's your take, mr. gingrich? >> the sad thing is is this a natural product of obama's class warfare. ronald reagan used to tell story about the british worker who stood by the road with his son and as a rolls royce went by he said some day we're

going to get that guy out of the car. and the american stood by the road as the cadillac went by and said some day you're going to buy that car. reagan represented the real american tradition which is you and your children have a chance to go out and work hard, the steve jobs' experience. you can create a better future. you can do something better. but we have had a strain of hostility to free enterprise. frankly a strain of hostility to classic america starting in our academic institutions and spreading across this country. i regard the wall street protest as a natural outcome of a bad education system, teaching them really dumb ideas. >> schieffer: well, do you agree with mr. cain who thinks they're just jealous of people who have good jobs? >> i'm not sure that the people actually protesting... look, there are aate low of people in america angry. i was with 35 realtors in south carolina on wednesday who are looking at a disaster in housing that they know that it's the dodd-frank bill. it's the obama administration. it's bernanke and geithner.

they're focusing their anger on the people who are causing them pain. they're not angry about other people being successful. they're angry about an obama administration stopping them from having a chance to be successful. >> schieffer: did you really mean that literally. you think they're just jealous? do you think that's the driving force? couldn't it also be that these people don't have a job? they don't know where to turn. they don't see any answers to the problems they have? and you think it comes down to jealousy? >> bob, yes, i do. >> schieffer: really? >> because it's class war warfare. some of them are there because they don't have a job, yes. but the fact of the matter is why aren't there jobs? go and picket the white house. demonstrate in front of the white house. the thing that this administration does not get is that the business sector is the engine of economic growth. that's key. they don't get that. so this president and administration wants to continue to try and spend our way to prosperity. part of it is jealousy. i stand by that. and here's why i don't have a lot of patience with that. my parents, they never played

the victim card. my parents never said we hope that the rich people lose something so we can get something. no, my dad's idea was i want to work hard enough so i can buy a cadillac not take somebody else's. and this is why i don't have a lot of patience for people who want to protest the success of somebody else. >> schieffer: all right. let's shift just a little bit. mr. gingrich, you got some attention yesterday when you lit in to the supreme court at the values conference. you basically said it should just be ignored on occasion and challenged on other occasions. you said that you would for one thing call judges before congress. is that what i understand? >> absolutely. >> schieffer: how in the world would you do that? they're in one branch of government. >> subpoena them. >> schieffer: one branch of government can't subpoena people in the other branches of the government. >> if that's true then the court can't say something to the congress either. can it? by your standards this supreme court cannot dictate to the president and cannot dictate

to congress but they do. and there are clear provisions in the constitution to rebalance it. there's a judge in san antonio who issued a ruling so anti-religious, so bigoted and so dictatorial on june 1 he should be called in front of the committee. they should ask him, what's your... by what right do you do dictate to the american people? >> schieffer: because it's a separate branch of government for one thing and the judge wouldn't have.... >> he would have to come if he's spped. that's my whole point. >> schieffer: could the congress also subpoena the president to come up there? >> of course. lincoln testified. >> schieffer: so did gerald ford but he did by agreement. >> by negotiation. but would have been subject to a subpoena depending on the circumstances is. the point is this, when you're actually making a more radical case than i am. you're suggesting that if the congress can't subpoena a judge, a judge could not issue an instruction to congress.

that the branches would be truly separate. that's not what happens today. today you have judges who are dictatorial and arrogant, who pretend that they are the dominant branch and who issue orders that clearly are against the constitution. >> schieffer: let me ask you one other thing that you said. you said in the gingrich administration you would just tell the national security officials to ignore the supreme court's recent rulings on national security. so which law is it? do you just follow only the laws you wish to follow under your doctrine? how does that work? >> you follow the law. in the cases i'm citing recently with hamden, you had the court overturning the congress and the president. and what i'm saying we have a precedent from jefferson, jackson, lincoln and franklin delano roosevelt. roosevelt of 1942 when we captured 14 german spies says to the attorney general, i will not honor a writ from the supreme court. you tell them not to issue one.

and i think the commander in chief has the power to do... the recent court decisions in which the court intervened in national security, they're taking on their shoulders defending america. they are totally unprepared to do it. it is unconstitutional. somebody should stand up to them and say no. >> schieffer: but what you're talking about here is just setting off a constitutional crisis. each and every time that you as president didn't agree with what the... some ruling from the court.... >> but the courts have created this crisis. the courts have again and again and again since 1958 asserted an ability to redefine america. i mean in the current court you have four conservatives, four liberals. you have justice kennedy as the one person.... >> schieffer: if the court could... if the president could ignore the supreme court, could he also ignore the congress which is another branch? >> he could and presidents can and do. >> schieffer: could the congress ignore the president. >> here's the consequence. the congress cuts off the money. there's a balance of power. the congress doesn't have to

pay for something. and if the president gets too far out of line they just won't give him the money. the president doesn't have to automatically do what congress wants. he can veto bills. he can interpret bills. the court is also subject. it is a balance of power. and people can go to newt.organ see the entire paper which backs this up which cites the dean of stanford law school. this is not a trivial argument but a fundamental question about the nature of the american constitution. >> schieffer: i want to talk to mr. cain about something. that is something that is fairly big change that you propose. your 9-9-9 tax plan. 9% across the board income tax. 9% corporate tax. a 9% sales tax. but one of the things that struck me about this, that's on new goods. if people buy something new they pay a 9% sales tax. >> yes. >> schieffer: but if they buy something used, they don't pay the sales tax. >> correct. >> schieffer: am i correct on that. >> you are absolutely correct. >> schieffer: let me ask you

this. what is that going to do to the car industry in this country which makes new cars? >> it's going to use up the existing used car inventory because there's a limited number. eventually ally people are going to start buying new cars. that's not a big negative. here's the main thing i want to make sure that i get across about the 999 plan. first we throw out the existing tax code. and then impose the 9% corporate tax, 9% personal income tax and the 9% sales tax. here are the big advantages. it provides certainty to the business sector. i have serveded on corporate boards for nearly 20 years before i ran... before i decided to run for president. we didn't sit around talking about how do we survive? not until recently. they want to grow. but they don't grow because we don't have certainty. one other point, bob, please. here's the other thing about 999. 999 will grow this economy. it's definitely going to create jobs. its revenue neutral. this means people that are

underemployed will be able to find a job that they are more qualified for. it also means that in those cases where people are low-wage earners, they can find a second job so it has growth opportunities as well as getting the lowest possible tax rate for everybody. >> schieffer: without going into all the details, i think i have to note there are some economists that say that is not correct. but let me just.... >> may i interrupt? they have changed our assumptions. that's why they say that it's not correct. >> schieffer: let me ask you one certainty is that poor people are going to have to pay more taxes. >> no. no. >> schieffer: they're not? >> let's start with the payroll tax. it's 15.3%. everybody pays that. so instead of paying 15.3% they're going to be paying 9%. that's a 6 percentage point difference. if you work that out for various income levels, they will have extra cash from that differential to pay the sales tax. >> schieffer: aren't poor

people also going to get to pay a tax on food and a tax on medicine? >> we all will. we all will. you have to work.... >> schieffer: do you think that's fair? >> yes because you give poor people more opportunity to stretch their dollar and leverage their income based upon their decisions whether to buy new or used goods. >> schieffer: all right. i have to end it right here. i could talk to the two of you all morning. you know, rick perry said he'd like a combination of the two of you. he thought that would make an interesting vice presidential mate on the ticket. >> the way perry described it, none of us wanted to comment on what rick was saying. >> politically that could work but the way he described it wasn't exactly the metaphor. >> schieffer: all right. thank you all. i hope you can both come back. back in a minute with a little analysis. ♪ [ male announcer ] each of these photos was taken

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michael gerson, a columnist for michael gerson, a columnist for the "washington post." we're also joined by two members of our cbs news political team -- congressional correspondent nancy cordes, political analyst john dickerson. john, let me just start with you. this whole business about judges make decisions congress doesn't like, so they haul them before a congressional committee. >> well, what speaker gingrich is talking about-- and this is true of a lot of his plans-- he comes to washington he wants to shake things up. this would start the new administration with a big constitutional crisis. this would be a big fight. you'd have both branches going after each other. and the country would likely look at that and say wait a minute, i thought we were trying to figure the jobs thing out. why are we having this huge fight?" he can test whether that would survive in the current system. but it's a big test to have right away when you're coming into office. >> schieffer: michael gerson, let me just ask you. can herman cain and this candidacy be for real? i don't think anybody anticipated that, in this point

we're still very early, that herman cain would be one of the leaders. >> i think you have to take seriously that this is just the latest of the boom candidacies. we had donald trump and we had michele bachmann and we had rick perry. and now, we have herman cain. now, he is a very engaging man. you look at that "values voters" summit, he came away and people were comparing him to reagan. his upbeat style. his optimism. he's a motivational speaker. but unlike reagan, he doesn't have governing experience. he doesn't really have a foreign policy background. so we are moving from a different stage now, where we've been in the debate stage of primary. and now we're going to move to the ground game advertising stage. that requires money. it requires organization. and that is going to be one of the major tests of the cain candidacy. on the ground in places like south carolina, he has a lot of enthusiasm but not much infrastructure. >> schieffer: because rick perry has raised a lot of money. mitt romney has raised a lot of money. he has not raised a lot of money.

i mean, he hardly has any organization. in iowa. >> that's one of his challenges is now to take this burst in popularity, turn it into fund raising. then actual, you know, ground game on the ground where you can win primaries and caucuses. that's a tough transition. >> and it's a big challenge because his campaign manager in iowa actually quit this summer. several other top advisors in iowa, as well. they said they didn't feel like he was serious about running in iowa. his communications director left this week. and cain says he wants to run his campaign like a start-up. but you can't run a start-up and try to compete with a corporate identity like "obama, inc." and so at some point if you are serious about running you do have to raise the money and camp out in iowa if you want to have a chance there. >> schieffer: the other person to talk about was the other person who was here, newt gingrich. he is also coming up in the polls after just a disastrous start to his campaign. all of his campaign workers quit because they, you know, thought

he wasn't serious. a lot of them went over to rick perry. >> exactly. >> schieffer: but let's talk about perry just a little bit. where is he now, john? >> he's had a rough couple of weeks. he had bad debate performances, and also on two issues-- on immigration and also on the vaccine in texas-- he gave conservatives pause. but as we mentioned he's got a lot of money. $17 million raised in 49 days. so that gives him a chance to say "i can spend some money working on getting my message which is there's a reason conservatives like me. if the race now is a question of romney versus the non-romney, and conservatives are trying to figure out who the non-romney is, perry can go to that group with a lot of money and organization and say, "remember, i'm the one who is one of you. i'm an evangelical. i have a lot of immigrations policies that you do like. don't just pay attention to the one that you don't like." he has a gut level connection. with mitt romney, the problem they used to say about bob dole, it was like kissing your sister. they weren't very excited in the republican field. mitt romney is like kissing a

mannequin of your sister for some republicans, and perry is connected at the gut level. people say he's speaking truth. "he's one like me." that connection can get over a lot of individual problems they may have with specific things. >> schieffer: what about romney? >> i think romney had a very good week this week. he's collected some of the major republican donors that were interested in christie. he had a presidential-looking launch. he benefits from the fragmentation in the field. the fact that these two men who were here today are rising is actually good for mitt romney. they divide the anti-romney vote. well... the bad news is that the good news for romney, well... the bad news is that the... a lot of people in party want somebody else. the good news is they haven't really found him yet. >> and i think that he's learned a lot from the last four years in that the best defense is a good offense. so if someone attacks his faith, he says, look, we all need to be

more civil and more inclusive of other religions. if someone attacks his positions and says he's a flip-flopper, then he points out his opponent's inconsistencies. i think he realized from the last campaign that you keep defending your positions and your faith, you look like you're on the ropes. >> and barack obama is his running mate. the president's approval ratings in the gallup poll the lowest of his presidency. mitt romney does the best in the head-to-head match-ups. he can say if you want to beat barack obama, i'm the one with the best chance to do it. >> schieffer: i wish we could continue this but we can't. thank you all. the clock ran out. i'll be back with the final thoughts in just a moment. look, every day we're using more and more energy.

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question, they know it and they don't like it. they think you're slick at best, evasive, even oily. bulletin number 2. no one ever got elected because people thought they were evasive. as a rule, i never ask the same question more than twice. i don't have to-- a non-answer becomes an answer. and it never reflects well on the non-answerer. which brings me to bulletin number 3. if you want to come on "face the nation" and look bad, be my guest. former georgia senator sam nunn was always my favorite "face the nation" guest because sometimes when i would invite him to be on the broadcast, he would just say, "thanks but i really have nothing to say this week." sam nunn was not just a fine senator; he also won every political race he ever entered. back in a moment. the road is not exactly a place of intelligence. highway maintenance is underfunded, costing drivers $67 billion a year,

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