♪ >> announcer: from 30 rockefeller plaza in new york, it's "late night with seth meyers." tonight -- john goodman, star of "westworld," actor jeffrey wright, host of "the new york times" podcast "caliphate," rukmini callimachi, featuring the 8g band with aaron spears. ♪ [ cheers and applause ] ladies and gentlemen, seth meyers. >> seth: good evening. i'm seth meyers. this is "late night." how is everybody doing tonight? [ cheers and applause ] that's fantastic to hear. in that case, let's get to the news. in an interview with the "washington post," rudy giuliani said that he feels pretty good about his recent media appearances because, quote,

"everybody's reacting to us now." [ laughter ] yes, they are. yes, they are. and this is their reaction. [ laughter ] [ cheers and applause ] that's right, rudy giuliani said that he feels pretty good about his recent media appearances and believes it all worked out. what? i've seen men on "to catch a predator" with better media appearances. i mean, hey, at least i was wearing a nice shirt, right? [ light laughter ] when asked yesterday if president trump's attorney made hush money agreements with other women besides stormy daniels, rudy giuliani said, quote, "i have no knowledge of that, but i would think if it was necessary, yes." [ laughter ] although some women -- some women are staying silent for free. [ laughter ] [ cheers and applause ] first lady melania trump today unveiled her former childhood education platform called, be best.

said children, me try. [ laughter and applause ] according to reports people close to senator john mccain have told the white house that mccain does not want president trump to attend his funeral. you know it's bad when you're afraid someone's presence will bum people out at your funeral. [ laughter and applause ] a new study suggests that netflix is killing couple's sex lives because they're watching tv late at night in bed. oh, that's no what's killing it, said dj khaled's wife. [ laughter and applause ] the white house announced friday, that dr. oz will serve on president trump's council on sports fitness and nutrition. this after trump was turned down by doctors phil, dre, no, doom, strange, j., and zhivago. [ laughter ] [ cheers and applause ]

a chipotle store this weekend threw a burrito themed baby shower for a couple who had given birth to their child in the restaurant's parking lot. even cooler, they swaddled the baby. [ laughter ] and finally a colorado woman has been charged with destruction of property after she allegedly blew up a microwave in a 7-eleven store while trying to heat up a container full of urine before a drug test. or as it's known at 7-eleven, the number three. ladies and gentlemen we have a fantastic show for you tonight. [ cheers and applause ] he is one of the stars of "roseanne" on abc, our good friend john goodman is back on the show! [ cheers and applause ] he's a fantastic actor, starring in a fantastic show, "westworld" on hbo, jeffrey wright is joining us tonight. [ cheers and applause ]

and she is the creator of a fantastic new podcast "caliphate." rukmini callimachi is here. it's gonna be a great show. [ cheers and applause ] before we get to that, it's been five days since rudy giuliani went on tv and revealed that president trump lied about paying hush money to stormy daniels. and they still don't have their stories straight. for more on this, it's time for "a closer look." ♪ [ cheers and applause ] >> seth: trump's story about paying hush money to a porn star has taken more twists and turns than, well, a porn star. [ laughter ] as you may recall, the president originally insisted that he had nothing to do with the payment, didn't know anything about the payment, and didn't know where his lawyer michael cohen got the money to make the payment. while cohen himself claimed he never told trump about the payment and trump never reimbursed him. then trump hired count chocula's bookie as his lawyer, and he went on tv and completely blew up that story. giuliani told everyone that

trump had reimbursed cohen for that payment and that donald trump did know what it was for. and then the next day trump himself tweeted that cohen had received a monthly retainer from which he entered into, through reimbursement, a nondisclosure agreement with daniels. so that's where things stood as of thursday. then for some reason, trump talked to reporters on friday and tried to walk back rudy's comments which he had already confirmed with his own tweets by claiming rudy didn't know what he was talking about. >> i'll tell you what. rudy is a great guy, but he just started a day ago. but he really has his heart into it. he's working hard. he's learning the subject matter. he started yesterday. he'll get his facts straight. he's a great guy. >> seth: yeah. [ laughter ] give the kid a break. he's only 73 going on nosferatu. [ laughter ] [ cheers and applause ]

he's a former mayor and u.s. attorney who's now the lawyer for the president of the united states and trump talks about him like he's a trainee at chipotle. [ laughter ] excuse me my burrito fell apart. i'm sorry. he just started yesterday. he's a great guy. rudy, you gotta tuck the tortilla! i'm sorry. he'll learn. he's a great guy. [ cheers and applause ] so rudy -- rudy in an attempt to get trump off the hook for possibly violating campaign finance law revealed that trump had lied, which trump confirmed through his tweets and then tried to unconfirm the next day. of course, this is a no-win situation for trump. either he admits that he lied or says his lawyer is lying. which might be why trump tried to claim that it was other people who were getting the facts wrong without actually mentioning any of those other people by name. >> virtually everything he said, has been said incorrectly and it's been said wrong or it's been covered wrong by the press. it's actually very simple. it's actually very simple.

but there has been a lot of misinformation. really people wanting to say -- and i say, you know what, learn before you speak. it's a lot easier. >> seth: learn? [ laughter ] learn before you speak? you should learn to speak before you speak. [ laughter ] seriously, if it's so simple, then why don't you just explain it? trump's only move when he lies is to lie so confidently that you'll think you're crazy. [ light laughter ] he even walks up to reporters like a guy who's about to lie. okay, okay, okay. [ laughter ] i can explain. trump then stopped by the gaggle of reporters again and tried to claim that he actually hadn't lied about the stormy daniels payment when he said on air force one last month that he didn't know anything about it. >> when will you change you story on stormy daniels? >> we're not changing any stories. >> you said on air force one that -- >> excuse me. you have to -- >> about the payment. >> excuse me. you take a look at what i said. you go back and take a look. you'll see what i said. >> you said no when i asked if

you knew about the payment. >> excuse me. excuse me. you go take a look at what we said. >> seth: okay. let's all go take a look at what he said. [ laughter ] >> did you know about the $130,000 payment to stormy daniels? >> no. >> why did michael cohen make this if there was -- >> you'll have to ask michael cohen. michael is my attorney. and you'll have to ask michael. >> do you know where he got the money to make that payment? >> no, i don't know. >> seth: so either he was lying then or he's lying now or that's really alec baldwin on the plane. [ cheers and applause ] also is it me or does trump always seem to say stuff that's incriminating while there's an engine running behind him? [ laughter ] trump's only going to agree to an interview with robert mueller if they do it on a runway at la guardia. so then vladimir putin said -- [ airplane engine noise ]

oh, so maybe that is collusion. that might be collusion then. [ cheers and applause ] so trump's official story now is that his lawyer got his facts wrong because it was his first day on the job. but hey, at least now we know rudy giuliani doesn't know what he's talking about and should not be trusted. i assume the trump administration's next step was to make sure he never went on tv again. >> joining me now, attorney for president trump and former mayor of new york city rudy giuliani. did you misspeak or did people not interpret what you were saying? were you talking about the facts or were you talking about the law? >> i was talking about the law and the conclusion. the facts -- the facts -- i'm still learning. this is, you know, 1.2 million documents. i've been in the case for two weeks. virtually one day in comparison to other people. so i'm not an expert on the facts yet. i'm getting there. but i am an expert on the law. >> seth: what are you talking about?

[ laughter ] trump's going to be the first client who pleads insanity on behalf of his lawyer. [ laughter ] you have to throw this case out of court. the guy's a loon. on saturday giuliani also whined about what he claimed was the comparatively soft treatment that hillary clinton got, but did it in a way that if i were his client would not exactly inspire confidence in his legal acumen. >> when you juxtapose that against the so called investigation of hillary clinton where she was basically given a warning. she deletes, she -- >> nice, nice, nice. poor little hillary, we've got to be nice to her. >> seth: sorry is he -- did he just pet his own hand? [ laughter ] rudy giuliani is like a bond villain who can't afford a real cat. [ laughter ] or he had a cat. i mean -- [ cheers and applause ] he probably had a cat and the cat was like, this guy's crazy, i'm out of here. good-bye. [ laughter ] go to law school. and if you thought it would be

difficult for giuliani to make things worse, he somehow found a way by waking up on sunday and doing yet another tv interview, this time on abc. where he again seemed at a loss to reconcile his account with the various lies trump has told. for example, last week giuliani told buzzfeed that cohen had complained to some people after the 2016 election that he'd not been fully paid by trump. at some point cohen met with trump and told him of his complaint. giuliani said that trump told cohen we'll cover your expenses. and agreed to pay him $35,000 a month out of his personal funds over the course of a year-long period that began in the first few months of 2017. so the president was secretly reimbursing his lawyer for a hush payment to a porn star while he was in office. because that's what you want the president focusing on. mr. president the generals think we should bomb syria. wait a minute. is syria the blond? i liked her. i liked her. [ laughter and applause ] i understand these things have to happen. so giuliani's comments made it

very clear that trump was aware of the arrangement and agreed to pay cohen back over the course of 2017, which means his comments last month on air force one when he claimed he had no idea about the payment were clearly a lie. and yet when giuliani was asked on sunday how his buzzfeed comments square with trump's comments, he stammered his way through an unconvincing answer. >> so the president did know about this after the campaign. >> can't say that. i mean at some point, yes. but it could have been recently, it could have been a while back. those are the facts that we're still -- working on and that, you know, maybe in a little bit of dispute. this is more rumor than it is anything else. >> that what's you said. you said that to buzzfeed. >> but here's the -- yeah. i mean that's one of the possibilities and one of the rumors. the reality is -- >> you stated it as fact. >> well, maybe i did. but, right now i'm at the point where i'm learning. and i can only -- i can't prove that. i can just say it's rumor. i can prove it's rumor, but i can't prove it's fact. [ laughter ] >> seth: man, you guys, this burrito is really falling apart.

rudy. rudy, why do you have guacamole all over your face? in fact giuliani could not seem to stop himself from blurting out embarrassing and potentially incriminating claims about the case. for example he again repeated his argument that even if the money was campaign related, it didn't violate campaign finance law. and mentioned that he himself has also made similar arrangements for his clients. >> this was for another purpose, to protect him, to protect his family. it may have involved the campaign. doesn't matter. and it would have been done under any other circumstances if there was no campaign. >> if that's the case then why wasn't -- >> and i can prove that it has been done -- on numerous times not necessarily with president trump, but with many other people that i and other lawyers have represented. >> seth: i'm sorry, i just need to point something out. what's with the diamond encrusted pinkie rink? are you trying to look like a mob lawyer? [ light laughter ] i'm surprised he didn't do the interview in a velour track suit. [ laughter ] if you don't want people to think you're evil, don't look like you're trying to collect all six infinity stones.

one of the biggest revelations from giuliani in this interview was the admission that cohen might have also paid hush money to other women on trump's behalf. giuliani was trying to claim that, because this was a standard operating procedure for trump and cohen, it didn't count as a campaign finance violation. and in the process he said this. >> i did make clear -- and i don't know what they are yet. i will know. there were other things involved that had nothing to do with stormy daniels. in other words, other amounts of money. this was not uncommon for him to do that. if i were him and i were the president's lawyer and i had done this in the past and it had worked out in the past, i would not go to him and bother him two weeks before the election with this thing. >> you said he -- this is a regular arrangement he had with michael cohen. so did michael cohen make payments to other women for the president? >> i have no knowledge of that, but i would think if it was necessary, yes. >> seth: oh my god, rudy, what is wrong with you? [ light laughter ] it's almost like he challenged himself to confess to at least one crime per interview.

[ laughter ] soon he's just going to start cold calling tv shows to tell them about illegal stuff trump did. hello caller, you're on qvc. when trump was a real estate developer, he took kickbacks from the mob! also, how much is that pinkie ring? when this episode should make blindingly obvious as if it hadn't already been obvious for years since he first claimed that president obama wasn't born here, is that trump and his inner circle are serial habitual liars. they lie constantly. and they do it on purpose. this particular case is as clear cut as you can possibly get. the media needs to just call these what they are, lies. if not, you're just doing this to trump. >> nice, nice, nice. [ laughter ] >> seth: this has been "a closer look." ♪ [ cheers and applause ] we'll be right back with john goodman, everybody! [ cheers and applause ] ♪ >> announcer: for more of seth's "closer look's" be sure to subscribe to "late night" on

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♪ [ cheers and applause ] >> seth: welcome back, everybody. please give it up for the 8g band right over there! [ cheers and applause ] also sitting in with us this week, he's an incredible drummer whose played for the house band on "american idol," usher, and currently ariana grande whose new album "sweetener" will drop later this summer. for more information be sure to follow him on instagram. aaron spears is here, everybody.

[ cheers and applause ] thanks for being here, aaron. >> thank you, man. thanks so much. >> seth: our first guest tonight is an emmy and golden globe winning actor you know from such films as "the big lebowski" and "the artist." he reprises his role as dan conner in the revival of the hit series, "roseanne" which airs tuesday nighton abc. let's take a look. >> my knee is killing me and a nch of my pain p this thing was like half full. how many did you take? >> just a couple for my back. are you sure you didn't take more than you thought? >> if i was taking a handful of these pills, i'd be in a way better mood. have you noticed me in a way better mood, dan? >> the only thing i've noticed is that i love you more every day, sir. >> seth: please welcome back to the show john goodman, everybody. [ cheers and applause ] ♪

♪ ♪ >> seth: welcome back. >> thank you. thanks for having me. >> seth: it's always so great to see you. congratulations on the return of "roseanne." >> thank you very much. >> seth: this must be beyond your wildest dreams. even the fact that it came together in the first place. >> it was a gift. and i'm treating it as such. i'm very grateful to be back there, as opposed to last time, i was rehearsing and -- it was remarkable how it came together. i was on sara gilbert's talk show "the talk." >> seth: yes. >> in case there's any confusion. and we did a little "roseanne"-ish sketch at the top of it. and during the show she asked me if i would be interested in a reunion show or something like that -- a clip show, i don't know. i said, yeah, in a heartbeat.

and she called roseanne, said i was interested. and three weeks later we had a deal with the american broadcasting company. >> seth: that's crazy. >> also known as abc. [ light laughter ] you've always been a formal -- you always speak about networks very formally. >> the dumont network. [ light laughter ] >> seth: it's funny -- obviously you and roseanne have this chemistry. it's incredibly well honed. i remember this year at the golden globes you guys came out and presented together. >> yeah. >> seth: and i was rehearsing earlier in the day and for people who don't know. they just have extras do the lines. so, i was watching and it was like a three line exchange between you and roseanne. but i watched two extras do it and i was like this isn't funny at all. and then you and roseanne came out and said the exact same thing and it just crushed. >> they gave me a punch line that didn't work -- >> seth: oh, yeah? [ light laughter ] >> and she saved my bacon. >> seth: oh well that's -- >> yeah, she -- >> seth: i think that when you have a partner in comedy like that -- >> yeah. >> seth: there's a lot of bacon saving. >> oh, thank you. >> seth: you brought back the whole cast, you even brought back both beckys. was that a fun thing to have to figure out the math of that?

>> yeah, it was amazing. yeah, i couldn't recognize them apart. which one is which? yeah, they fit her in. she may even be coming back, i don't know, doing something. it's just so bizarre to walk onto that set for the first time. everything is reproduced exactly. and i got chills. it's not deja vu. but it's something spookier. i think laurie metcalf calls it a wormhole. >> seth: a wormhole, that makes sense. so, you said reproduced. it's not the original set? >> no. they had to get stuff off of ebay i believe that was ours. >> seth: oh, really? [ laughter and applause ] >> the rumor that i've been spreading is that the smithsonian institution owns the couch and they wouldn't rent it back to us cheaply. [ light laughter ] >> seth: right. >> but that's not true. >> seth: but it's a good rumor. >> print the legend. >> seth: yeah, absolutely print the legend. >> cheap bastards. i don't want to tell you about the government. let me tell you about the government. they're bad!

>> seth: well, there's the show of course is a lot now about the government. not as much as i feel like it's maybe getting ink for. roseanne is a trump supporter. laurie is a hillary, a left wing supporter. did you know going into the season what the stories were going to be about? >> i didn't care. >> seth: yeah that -- [ laughter ] >> which is pretty much the way i went through the last nine years of the show. seth:ell. >> i don't care. >> seth: the other thing thai think that helps is dan doesn't seem to care. >> nah. >> seth: it's basically, he's along for the ride as well. >> he's out in the garage drinking quite a bit of beer. >> seth: yeah. >> and -- have to deal with that sometime. >> seth: but he looks very svelte. >> thank you. >> seth: so, new dan looks very svelte. you've done him a great favor. >> new light beer. [ cheers and applause ] >> seth: yeah. >> well, since he died of a heart attack, i thought it might be nice to lose a little weight. >> seth: that's true. [ light laughter ] >> seth: we met at a heart attack factory, "snl." >> yeah. >> seth: and when you hosted in 2001. and you went back recently to play rex tillerson. there you go, sadly --

[ cheers and applause ] he was not long for the administration, though. this will not be a gravy train for you. >> no. >> seth: he's already done. >> the rich -- the fine paychecks -- the fat paychecks you get off being an extra on "snl." >> seth: when you played -- that's true. of course during the lewinsky scandal you played linda tripp famously. >> yeah. >> seth: how many times do you think you played her over the course of -- >> i thought one too many. but apparently they liked it. >> seth: they kept bringing you back. >> so they kept writing little capers for me. i just thought it was because i looked cute in a dress. >> seth: you did. i think everybody -- did you -- [ cheers and applause ] is there anyone in the administration now that tillerson's out is there anyone that you would like to play? >> yeah. i want to be the thug that threatened stormy daniels in the parking lot. >> seth: oh, yeah. [ laughter ] >> i want to be that guy. there's a lot of ways you can go with that.

>> seth: yeah. >> you know. you can get like the rudy giuliani thing, which is like second rate tom hagen. >> seth: yeah, well, that's the thing. because of what we're seeing as far as the aptitude of everybody in this administration, he might not have been an effective thug. like, he might have been like maybe less thuggish than a normal guy. >> yeah. >> seth: he might have gone up to her and been like, "excuse me, are you stormy daniels." >> before you sign this, could you do me a favor, just lay off trump? i love your work. [ laughter ] >> seth: the last time you hosted that i was there, i wrote a sketch and you were so wonderful. it did not go to air. >> no. >> seth: it was a hard cut between dress and air. >> yeah. >> seth: it was a scene where you worked at a novelty toy factory. you were the boss. and there you are. >> you know why the bit died? >> seth: why? >> that mustache. >> seth: yeah, you think? and the thing was there were break away chairs. it was a novelty toy store so

all the chairs were break away. >> yeah. >> seth: and bobby moynihan was your employee and you kept giving him bad news and every time he sat down, the chair would break. [ laughter ] >> no, try this one. no, this is good. >> seth: do you remember ken aymong, who is the producer there? >> yeah, yeah, kenny. >> seth: so, kenny, i remember when we did it. he -- kenny's the guy who's in charge of the budget each week. and he goes, "pally this sketch better work because these chairs cost a fortune." [ light laughter ] >> did he use the term "pally?" >> seth: he did use the term pally. that is a catchphrase of ken aymong. but you gave it your all. i take full responsibility. >> i thought it was a great bit. the audience, not so much. >> seth: no, and it was -- >> i think they were taking a dinner break at the time. i don't know. >> seth: and you've hosted enough to know that wasn't like a maybe either or. like, it was a minute into that sketch i think everybody involved knew, okay -- >> it's one of those sketches if you're doing it with will ferrell he'd step on the gas. not only are we going to crash, we're going to spread this thing over three acres. >> seth: yeah. [ light laughter ] >> so, that used to be fun, like, bombing in a sketch with

him. >> seth: oh, yeah. >> yeah, 'cause it was -- he just -- [ engine revving ] well that, back when i had a desk at "snl," like there was a -- you'd go on the server and watch old sketches. and we never watched things that went well. we were always like, did you hear the one about where will bombed so bad nobody in the audience made a sound and he just like, took the longest pauses. it was like [ bleep ] you ass[ bleep ] you're staying here all night. [ laughter ] always so great to see you. >> it was awesome. >> seth: thanks for everything. john goodman, everybody! [ cheers and applause ] "roseanne" airs tuesday nights on abc. we'll be right back with jeffrey wright, everybody. [ cheers and applause ] ♪ kyle: mom! mom! kyle, we talked about this. there's no monsters. but you said they'd be watching us all the time. no, no. no, honey, we meant that progressive would be protecting us 24/7. we just bundled home and auto and saved money. that's nothing to be afraid of. -but -- -good night, kyle. [ switch clicks, door closes ] ♪

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♪ [ cheers and applause ] >> seth: our next guest is an emmy and tony award winning actor you know from his work on "boardwalk empire," "the hunger games" franchise and "angels in the america." he's currently starring in hbo's award winning series "westworld." let's take a look. >> you and charlie have quite a lot in common, you know. you both see it so clearly. the beauty of it, the

possibility of it. so many people have stopped seeing it all together. >> seth: please welcome to the show jeffrey wright, everyone! [ cheers and applause ] ♪ ♪ >> seth: welcome to the show. >> thank you, man. thanks for having me. >> seth: i want to talk about "westworld," a show that i love. but i want to talk about "angels in america" first. just reopened here on broadway. >> yes. >> jimmy: i was lucky enough in 1993 to see your production of "angels in america." here's a -- a twenty years ago jeffrey wright. look at that guy right there. >> 25. [ cheers and applause ] [ laughter ] >> seth: have you seen it yet? >> i haven't. how old were you then? >> seth: i was 20, yeah.

>> crazy. so was i. >> seth: yeah -- i will say, i'm not lying. i did have that hair. [ laughter ] a very similar 1993 hair. >> i once did as well. yeah. i haven't seen it. i was going to go see it with my kids when it opened. and last minute they ended up going off on spring break with their mom. so i went down to puerto rico and surfed instead. >> seth: that seems like a perfectly nice thing to do. >> yeah. >> seth: have you ever gone to see a role you've played before? is it a weird thing to do? >> i have. i've never seen "angels in america" though. i did it a year and a half on broadway and i've never seen the show. i'm really, you know, like terribly looking forward to see it. it's probably -- in "westworld" we talk about cornerstones. for me in my career, "angels in america" is a cornerstone. it's that thing that kind of represents the center of your psyche. you know, it's one of the greatest pieces of writing that i've ever had the opportunity to work on, including shakespea. and it's incredibly relevant now

in a way that's unexpected. you know, back when we did it, the aids crisis was still pretty hot. you know, we had people in the audience who were sick from of the disease. and sick from the disease rather. and to see them there, to see their stories validated, was incredibly powerful. but it's also a story about the politics of that lacks compassion and the politics of hypocrisy. and so sadly -- >> seth: depressingly, yeah. >> sadly it's still depressingly relevant now. >> seth: you mentioned you went surfing. is that something you do a lot? >> i try. >> seth: do you ever surf here in new york? >> i do, i do. >> seth: you can surf in new york. i feel like people were laughing -- >> come on, come on. you go to rockaways or long beach. the thing is you know, the winters here are pretty tough. >> seth: yeah. >> i've been out there in the snow. >> seth: and you just wet suit it out. >> yeah you wet suit it out. it's not so much the water. it's getting out. you know you take and you're like half naked. it's 20 degrees outside.

you're driving back and you're soaking wet truck. and it's just not the most comfortable thing. you wear the hood, the booties and all that. i did take the hood off in the water one time. >> seth: mistake? >> it was a sunny day. you know -- i thought it was in the 30s, 40s. i took the hood off. i dipped my head into the water and you ever had an ice cream headache? >> seth: yeah. [ light laughter ] >> this was like that only the ice cream was like sledge hammer flavored and i was being smashed -- my skull was being smashed at all angles. i wrote a note in the sand -- i got out of the water, wrote a note in the sand, never do that again. >> seth: that's helpful. so "westworld" not only is this a wonderful show, it is a show that there are many fan theories. >> yes. >> seth: and i assume that when a fan runs into somebody who's actually a part of the show, they want to ask you about it constantly. is that -- you actually had a moment during a protest. >> yeah they try to pull it out of ya. but yeah, this was right after the election. i joined, you know, that representative group of our

democracy that charged up to troll tower. [ cheers and applause ] to express our discontent, our outrage. big crowd getting a little weird on the edges, you know. but we're unified and there were cops there, you know, mostly good. you know, some getting a little frayed themselves. so it was a little tense. and in the midst of all this, this cop leaned over to me and said, "hey, are there multiple timelines or what's going on? i was like, "you know, 'westworld.' bring it in." [ laughter ] yeah. [ applause ] >> seth: i want to ask about this movie you have coming out called "o.g." >> yes. >> seth: so you actually shot this film inside a maximum security prison in indiana. >> we did. >> seth: and you used actual guards and actual inmates >> correct. >> correct. >> seth: this actor is a current

inmate. >> that's a young man named theodus carter. he's currently serving 65 years in pendleton correctional facility in indiana. i guess theodus about 36 years old now. we shot the film a couple years ago. and -- you know, he's a guy who said when we worked on this thing, he said i never had an opportunity like this before in my life. and if i had an opportunity like this maybe i wouldn't be where i am today. but he gives a tremendous moving performance. and -- i look at him and i look at the work that we did together and the work he does in this film and i ask myself, what happened that led a guy who could have been so much more into a place that he is now. and i think that's what we try to examine in the film. we work with guys. there was an extra who was on death row for seven years. another guy is in for life and so on. these guys, the running story, i

think, is that a lot of them never really had a chance. almost to a man, they come from drug addicted parents. mom who abandoned them, on the streets by 10 or 11 and then by 16 or 17, chaos. and so what we try to do is humanize them through the story and ask ourselves who they are, not oversimplify them. and we don't as well we don't want to diminish the fact that they did some pretty serious crimes, very serious crimes. and great damage to some individuals and families and communities. at the same time, if we're going to understand them, if we're going to try to prevent another generation from coming behind them, we can't simplify them. we've got to humanize them and learn as much as we can so that we can create better policy that makes our country safer, less violent and less incarcerated. i think every politician -- [ cheers and applause ] it was -- it was a huge education for me being on the inside for six weeks, 13 hours a day.

i think every politician in america should go to prison. >> seth: that's a good idea. >> some of them might. >> seth: some might stick around. they might stick around maybe. >> learn something, learn something -- >> seth: hey thanks so much for being here. it's always a pleasure to see you. >> thank you seth, real -- >> seth: jeffrey wright, everybody. "westworld" airs sunday nights at 9:00 p.m. on hbo. we'll be right back with more "late night." ♪ i'm captain obvious and hotels.com

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♪ [ cheers and applause ] >> seth: our next guest is a "new york times" foreign correspondent. she hosts the riveting new podcast "caliphate." please welcome to the show rukmini callimachi! [ applause ] ♪ ♪ >> seth: welcome, rukmini! >> thank you for having me, seth. >> seth: so we're three episodes i believe into your podcast, "caliphate." this is inspired by your reporting that you've done on isis over the years. >> it's actually my factual reporting, i hope. >> seth: oh factual okay good. [ light laughter ] i hope so too. but you -- this is very interesting because one of the -- you talk about this in

the first episode. one of the major breakthroughs you've made in your reporting is going through the trash, be al qaeda trash or isis trash. and places like mali and iraq. >> yes. >> seth: what is it that you found from going through the garbage of these organizations? >> well imagine if i came to your house and i interviewed your neighbors about you. if they're like my neighbors they probably never see -- >> seth: i would like you not to do that. [ light laughter ] >> yeah, exactly. no, i'm planning to go and deliver a cake to my neighbors or like banana bread so that i at least i can plant a story. god forbid anybody has to interview my neighbors. >> seth: oh i see. you want to do something nice to your neighbors and kids. >> i want to do something very nice for my neighbors because we always do this as reporters is go to the neighbors. and the neighbors know nothing right about people. compare that to me going into your house and going through your bank statement, going through your diary, looking at your bookshelf and understanding what you read. i think it's a much more intimate look at a human being's life, the documents they leave behind, the objects they leave behind, then what we usually do. which is interview people about people.

>> seth: and do you think they were aware when they left these places? because in a lot of the times, obviously they don't have a great amount of time to think or pack when you're isis leaving. that's when you say the hardest thing about being in isis, no time to pack. [ light laughter ] do you think they were aware they left behind a trove of documents that could be very useful to a reporter? >> you know, when i was in mali, i definitely in one of the most important buildings, i found a big pile of papers, i think papers, outside that had been burnt. i saw just the charred you know ruins of it. and people who were around there said that they saw them coming out with files and burning them. so you do assume that they've destroyed perhaps the most incriminating stuff. but they were trying to run a state. and the bureaucracy that came with that was just enormous. and so they don't have time to destroy everything. and what they leave behind is in my opinion very telling. >> seth: another way you do your reporting and you actually interact with members of isis is you go on chatrooms. >> yes. >> seth: how did that first start and how do you begin a conversation with someone from isis in a chatroom?

>> it's start -- [ light laughter ] fair question. it started for me in 2012-2013. that was the moment when -- it was also the moment when twitter was exploding and there was a golden moment for i would say a year and a half, two years when these guys were out there. they were all over twitter. they were all over facebook. they were on tumblr, instagram. and you could dm them. and start a conversation with them. most of them did not want to speak to me so most of these conversations would end with them insulting me in some manner. or them trying to convert me. they're very intent on trying to convert me from my religion to theirs. but once in a while, you get through and you start having an interesting conversation, you know human being to human being with them. and i have found those to be very revealing. so once they left twitter, twitter started to crack down on them in 2014, 2015. they moved to something called telegram. there it's much more difficult because these are secret chat

rooms. now so you have to be invited by somebody that's on the inside. the code to get into these rooms is this long, you know, chain of gibberish. you can't guess it. on twitter i could guess who they were. in theses rooms you have to be invited by somebody who is on the inside. i was invited by some of them at the beginning. those people are no longer alive or whatever. and i'm now inside the chatrooms and i spend a lot of my waking hours just trying to stay inside these chat rooms because they're being suspended every day. >> seth: and now, are the people from isis now aware enough of your work to know that you're in their chatroom? >> yes. they called me a spy. they called me -- they have a bunch of names for me. kafira, which is the female of kafir meaning infidel. >> seth: okay, that's nice. it sounds nice. [ light laughter ] >> yeah, exactly. and then another name they have for me is oinkmini fatmachi. i'm sorry to laugh. [ laughter ] >> seth: fantastic! that's what isis is terrible at names. >> my first name is rukmini so oinkmini, like a pig. and my last name is callimachi so it's fatmachi.

i'm sorry to laugh. [ laughter ] so i started to feel like i'm in a room, you know, with like some of the mean girls from high school. >> seth: yeah. it's weird that i'm surprised that isis can be cruel. i'm like, isis! [ laughter ] i'm very disappointed in you, isis. >> exactly. i'm being fat shamed by a terrorist group. [ laughter ] >> seth: it really leads to a fantastic reporting. and i highly recommend everyone not only read your work, but listening to it is incredibly engaging and the people you talk to are very engaging. you, obviously there's a danger inherent to it beyond being trolled in a chat room. do you ever take that into account? do family members of yours ever take that into account? >> so the fbi has come to see me and my editors three times now. and i think it was 2015, 2016, 2017. these are pretty scary encounters where the fbi calls the office and says we need to see you immediately. there's what we believe is a targeted real threat against you.

the first time they came to see me, it was a targeted threat against me, which you would expect, and my husband, who is not a public figure. we did a little bit of research and we figured out that it was a member of isis who had infiltrated my facebook account. infiltrated is a bit too harsh. she had created a facebook profile that was not hers, had friended me and i had, you know, naively allowed her in as a friend. and she had then gone into my personal -- you know -- into my personal photo albums and started taking pictures of my husband and my family and sharing personal information about me online, right. so i ran home and told my husband, you and i are both, you know, the subject of these targeted threats because of facebook. and he spent all night trying to figure out his facebook settings, you know, to try to like secure them. and then he finally just unfriended me on facebook. [ laughter ] [ applause ] >> seth: i mean, if there was ever a time to do it. because i will say, my wife, i

don't like all her friends, but none of them are in isis. [ light laughter ] hey, thank you so much for being here. i really appreciate it. >> thank you, seth. >> seth: great to meet you in person. rukmini callimachi, everybody. you can find "caliphate" wherever you get your podcasts. we'll be right back. [ applause ] ♪ it's definitely namasteible, and perfect on the wayible. whether it's all for the winible...

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♪ >> announcer: this week on "late night with seth meyers."

michelle wolf, tracee ellis ross, michael shannon, and chat and music from, jessie ware, head over to itunes to subscribe to the "late night with seth meyers" podcast. you'll get "a closer look" and more downloaded right to your phone. ♪

[ cheers and applause ] >> seth: my thanks to john goodman, jeffrey wright, rukmini callimachi, everybody! aaron spears and of course the 8g band. stay tuned for carson daly. see you tomorrow! [ cheers and applause ] ♪ ♪ ♪ >> carson: good evening, and welcome to "last call." i'm carson daly, and this is tonight's show coming to you