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donald trump agree to two presidential debates. the candidates defy tradition with new rules after chaos four years ago. this morning, how the history of candidate clashes led to big changes. reaction from democratic senator chris van hollen and a former top advisor to mike pence and our "powerhouse roundtable." under fire. >> this is taking down the supreme court. >> martha: a photo shows a stop the steal symbol outside justice alito's home days after the january 6th insurrection. the supreme court weighs immunity for trump's actions. we will discuss the fallout with pierre thomas and jodi kantor who broke the story. russia moves in on ukraine's second largest city. ukrainian troops struggle to repel the latest advance.

>> it's difficult. brigades are not totally equipped. james longman is in the war zone. reaction from former top u.s. diplomat victor yeah nuland. >> announcer: from abc news, that's "this week." >> martha: good morning. welcome to "this week." make my day. those were joe biden's fighting words there week proposing go live debates with former president donald trump. hours later, it was set. abc will hold a september 10th debate. and next month, on june 27th, cnn will hold biden and trump in the earliest general election debate in history. the candidates jettisoned the commission on presidential debates, which organized presidential face-offs since 1988. instead, agreeing to rules that would cut off mikes when it is not the candidate's turn and

ruling out a live audience. biden's unprecedented and unexpected debate proposal comes as new swing state polling out this week paints a gloomy picture for his re-election. can the early debates shift the race? we will dive into all of that this morning. first, a look at the tradition that began in 1960. >> richard nixon and senator john kennedy. >> martha: it was the first televised debate with no live audience but nearly 70 million americans watching richard nixon sweat and the handsome young john kennedy likely sealing his narrow victory. fast forward to 1984, to 73-year-old ronald reagan who was then the oldest candidate in history, tackling his age head on. >> i will not make age an issue of this campaign. i am not going to exploit for

political purposes my opponent's youth and inexperience. >> martha: if anyone doubted that debate answers can make or break presidential campaigns, remember this. michael dukakis' robotic answer to what was an emotional question. >> governor, if kitty were raped and murdered, would you favor a death penalty for the killer? >> no, i don't. you know i oppose the death penalty during all of my life. >> martha: you don't just have to watch your words. there was george h.w. bush checking his watch. and vice president al gore's exasperated sighs. welcome to the first and only -- i moderated the vice presidential debate in 2012 between paul ryan and joe biden. is he wrong? >> he is wrong.

>> how is that? >> you can cut tax rates and preserve these important preferences for middle class taxpayers. >> not mathematically possible. >> it is. it's been done before. it's what we are proposing. >> it has never been done. >> it's been done a couple of times. jack kennedy lowered -- >> now you are jack kennedy. >> martha: it was feisty yet civil. my, how things have changed. >> a nasty woman. >> martha: enter donald trump. i co-moderated one of the debates between donald trump and hillary clinton. it was to say the least challenging. thank you very much. we will move on. >> she went over a minute over. you don't stop her. when i go one second over, it's -- >> martha: you had many answers. that was nothing compared to 2020 when trump and biden's debate spiraled out of control. >> i won't answer that question. >> will you shut up?

>> martha: endless interruptions to name calling. >> wait a minute. you get the final word. >> it's hard to get any word in with this clown. excuse me, this person. >> it's a very important -- >> try to be honest. >> he stood up. >> the answer is no. >> he threatened ukraine. >> sir, sir, that is -- >> that is not true. >> stop. >> you are going to -- gentlemen! >> martha: the final debate, both men seeming to have learned a lesson, showing more restraint. but it was 12 days before the election and more than 48 million americans had already cast their ballot. i'm joined by senator chris van hollen. great to have you on set this morning. the campaign has talked about wanting to do these debates

early because so many people vote early as we just pointed out in that piece. does this give biden a chance to change the narrative, given his polling numbers? >> first of all, it's good to be with you. i'm glad now we have debates that work better for the american people. these debates will take place before millions of people have voted. they are designed to focus on serious issues rather than create a circus atmosphere. in june, when the first debate will be, it will give the president, yes, an opportunity to really frame the choice that's before the american people. the sooner we begin to frame that choice, the better. >> martha: they cut off mikes. you said an advantage for the american people. they cut off if the candidates aren't speaking. it's one on one. no live audience. that seems to be advantage biden since former president trump loves the live audience. >> it's an advantage to the american people. they want them focused on the

issues. what donald trump likes is a carnival-like atmosphere. he is more of an entertainer than a debater on the issues. this helps the american people crystallize the choice. >> martha: president trump started trashing joe biden, calling for a drug test, saying that president biden was high during the state of the union. we're not exactly talking about policy yet. what are your expectations of these debates? >> we know donald trump. you mentioned the drug testing. he was the birther candidate. he is not focused on issues that are important to the american people. he wants to create this atmosphere of a circus-like entertainment. the choice will be very clear. you have joe biden. he grew up in scranton,

pennsylvania. he fights for the middle class. he believes in the dignity of work and decency. donald trump, agent of chaos, somebody running for revenge and somebody who just said to oil company executives the other day, give me $1 billion for my campaign, i will give you everything you want. >> martha: donald trump thinks there's an advantage or he wouldn't have accepted. what do you think he gains? he can talk to his base. does it attract independent voters? >> look, donald trump believes that by sort of creating this atmosphere of chaos, entertainment -- we saw him yesterday with the nra promising the gun lobby everything they wanted. saying he was proud of the fact he didn't take action after kids were gunned down. the trump campaign will have to answer what they want out of this debate. >> martha: let's talk about the american public is concerned about joe biden's age as well. i know you will say donald trump is almost that age.

can you honestly say you don't have any concerns about joe biden that night in these debates? >> i do not. it's not about the age. it's what they will do for the american people. donald trump is about revenge and the past. joe biden is about fighting for the american people and putting forward an agenda for the future. >> martha: let's put campaigning aside for a moment. i know in the 2012 debate, which i moderated, you played the part of paul ryan in rehearsals. what did you learn about joe biden's process for these debates? >> the challenge is always to boil down a huge amount of issues into a short amount of time. joe biden likes to explain things. he likes to talk about his record.

in a debate, you have to crystallize that. again, the choice is so clear this time between joe biden, somebody who is protecting democracy, and donald trump, who wants to trash it. >> martha: no way you are putting campaigning aside. president biden was exasperated at one point. they were different debates. the first was chaos. the second calmed down. he was calling trump a clown, saying shut up. would you advise him not to do that? >> i don't know i would. you have to show the human side. i remember in the vice presidential debate you moderated, there were times joe biden did things that we had not gone over in prep. at one point responded to paul ryan, that's a bunch of malarkey. you have to show who you are. when donald trump is being a complete jerk, then i can

understand the president of the united states responding and letting him know that's what he thinks. >> martha: former president trump accepted the invitation. he wants to do more, including telemundo, hispanic audience. would you advise him to do more, president biden? >> i think we nailed down two debates, rather than getting into a debate about debates. telemundo can partner with other -- abc or cnn as part of that night. look, donald trump likes to talk trash. he always says he wants to do something and then doesn't. i don't know if he will testify at his trial in new york this week where he says he wants to get on the stand. the good news for the american people is that we have now locked down two debates. >> martha: let's look at the polling. the battleground polls show he is down by 12 in nevada, 7 in michigan, 7 in arizona, 3 in

pennsylvania, the only state where he had an edge is wisconsin. how do you turn that around? >> you and i have been following politics for a long time. it will go up and down. the short answer is to begin to frame the choice for the american people. it's very good news the first debate is in june. >> martha: we will look forward to that. thanks for joining us this morning. >> good to be with you. >> martha: i'm joined by marc lotter. good morning to you. former president trump quickly agreed to all the terms the biden campaign laid out. in his speech at the nra, which we talked about, he was complaining about everything, trashing joe biden, calling for drug tests. is that the right approach in your view? >> i think the choice is clear in this election. i think people will see it on

that debate stage in june. for donald trump, i think it's basically a strategy of reality and real life. the reality is that people are struggling in real life to pay for groceries and gas. the open border problem, crime, the wars around the world. a policy put forth by donald trump has a secure border, economic success. joe biden, more of the same. the american people don't like it. >> martha: the co-chair of the commission on presidential debate says trump's decision to agree to the conditions that the biden campaign wanted could end up being one of the greatest blunders of the entire election cycle. someone described it to him as political malpractice. your response? >> absolutely not. this is going to be a choice between two candidates. it's great to see them both on the stage.

i think the american people need to see donald trump and joe biden side by side. this is not a joe biden that can shield himself with staff or take the short stairs or use a teleprompter. this is live recall. donald trump gets up there two or three times a week and talks for 90 minutes. this is going to be a challenge for president biden. >> martha: you heard senator van hollen talk about a circus atmosphere. we have seen that in the past. we saw that in 2020. i moderated a debate. it's a different kind of debate. will he stick to policies instead of outbursts? >> i think he will. he wins with the policies. i think the american people know that they were better off, things were more affordable and the border was secure when donald trump was in the white

house. many want it back. which is what -- >> martha: i want to put campaigning aside for a minute. let's talk about what i ask about. those outbursts, this is very different dealing with donald trump. would you advise him, if you were advising, to stop that, to stop the circus-like atmosphere, to stop attacking the moderators, the format? >> since the mikes will be closed, it looks like it's just the candidate themselves answering the questions and responding to each other. i think that format takes care of itself. when donald trump sticks to the policies, i think there's a stark difference between these two candidates. >> martha: i want to talk about polls from the past debates. cnn poll conducted after the general election debates in 2020 found that more voters who watched thought biden had won. of course, he won in 2020 as well. this could be seen as precarious for donald trump. >> i think it's the reverse. i think this is a hail mary for

joe biden. i think they know they are losing. the people disagree and disapprove of joe biden's handling of just about every single issue across the board. i think this is their shot, this is their hail mary to try to change the narrative. i think in a way, they are setting up joe biden to possibly fail if he doesn't do well in the june debate. what's that say moving forward? will they try to remove him and change horses in august? >> martha: right now, polls show that donald trump is ahead of biden in battleground states. why does he believe this is in his best interest? he didn't do any primary debate. why do these? >> i think what you want to see and i think what the trump campaign wants to see is a direct comparison between donald trump and a clearly not up for primetime joe biden. he struggles with answering questions. he gets facts wrong about the economy in an interview last

week with cnn. he makes up stories about his uncle being eaten by cannibals. if you have 90 seconds to answer and joe biden is struggling for his words or the facts, that's a problem for joe biden. it will be on display for the american people. >> martha: thanks for joining us. we will all be watching those debates. we will tackle the uproar over an upside down flag at justice alito's home. we are back in two minutes. wo m. dude, what're you doing? i'm protecting my car. that's too much work. weathertech is so much easier... laser-measured floorliners up here, seat protector and cargoliner back there... nice! out here, side window deflectors... and mud flaps... and the bumpstep, to keep the bumper dent-free. cool! it's the best protection for your vehicle, new or pre-owned. great. but where do i---?

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jodi kantor and pierre thomas. alito claims this happened because his wife was in some sort of dispute with neighbors. explain that. >> well, let's take this from the point of view, first of all, of the neighbors. also the people back at the court who heard about it shortly after it happened. it's just after january 6th, 2021. it's just before president biden's inauguration. people are seeing this upside down american flag outside the justice's home. this at the time is really a stop the steal symbol. people have this kind of, what the heck reaction on a lot of levels. first of all, as everybody

knows, federal judges are just not supposed to make political displays. it's a pretty bedrock rule. second of all, they are looking and saying, wait a second. is justice alito an insurrectionist? does he oppose the peaceful transfer of power? that's really how the questions started. i learned about it -- i was able to document it very recently. i think the question now that it leads to is, justice alito has this long story about a fight that his wife was in with a neighbor, that he is using to explain it. of course, it raises bigger questions about judicial bias, especially at a time when the court is still contemplating january 6th questions. >> martha: it happened a long time ago. is it surprising it took so long to come out? >> perhaps. believe me, i was only able to really confirm this information very recently.

we got it in the paper pretty fast after that. i don't know the full explanation. i will say two things. not everybody saw it. you would think now with this being news, everybody did. but it was up for a few days. you would have to sort of pause for a second and say, hey, that's upside down. then the second thing is that people on this block are nervous. i can tell you, there have been a lot of protesters on the block. people -- some people on the block favor that. some people on the block are upset about that. i think there's collective worry on this block that it is going to turn into a circus and to some degree has. >> martha: pierre, talk about the symbolism a little more. this is the second supreme court justice's spouse who had an issue about stop the steal. this is different. ginni thomas, clarence thomas,

she was posting on the facebook page, this is her. this is a flag flown at his house. >> make no mistake, this inverted or upside down flag has become a symbol of election deniers and stop the steal supporters, including some who attacked the capitol on january 6. that's a fact. it's interesting and critics say people who use the flag in this way are at odds with federal law. there's something called the flag code, federal flag code. it says basically that it calls for respect for the flag and states flatly, no disrespect shall be shown to the flag of the united states of america. the flag should never be displayed with the union down except as a signal of distress or in extreme danger of life or property. no penalties for this. no criminal enforcement. but this is a very serious issue.

>> martha: on the point of ginni thomas, second supreme court justice, but this is different. >> ginni thomas had great misgivings and took actions regarding what she thought was a stolen election from donald trump. this involves a supreme court justice where the justice department has two cases before the supreme court, one involving presidential immunity, another involving whether they applied a federal statute too broadly with january 6 suspects. doj wants the court to have blinders on. they are concerned, very concerned. there's little they can do about it. they declined to comment because they are at the mercy of the court. >> martha: elaborate on the cases before the court but also the difference between the ginni thomas and this case. >> sure.

right now, the court is deciding two essential questions about january 6th. one is about a law that rioters and former president trump could potentially be bound by. what is the nature of this law? does it apply to this situation? the more immediate one is to what degree president trump has immunity for his actions on january 6th. these are climactic questions. they will shape the history of january 6th and how we remember it. the level of accountability that former president trump has. they are going to have a lot of impact on the next presidential election, because polls are showing that former president trump is viewed differently, whether he is convicted or not. the court was already almost in an impossible situation with these cases, because the nation is so politically divided, and

trust is dropping so much, that it was going to be very difficult to get really broad faith in whatever they decide. now that one of the justices has flown this flag at his home, even if his wife is the one who put it up, and also as you say, virginia thomas, the wife of clarence thomas, was actually involved in the stop of steal efforts, and yet justice thomas has not fully recused himself from the cases, these questions of trust and acceptance and legitimacy, i think, are going to be on people's minds in a few weeks when these opinions come out. >> martha: they will be. thanks to both of you. appreciate your time. up next, as russia advances on ukraine's second largest city, we will have a report from the ground. a former top state department official breaks down the war effort as that stalled u.s. aid makes its way to ukraine. so, i didn't think i needed swiffer.

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bet against ukraine, don't. it would be a big mistake. i have every confidence that together we will get through these difficult moments and together help build a country that's free, prosperous, that's secure, that writes its own future. >> martha: that was secretary of state antony blinken on a visit to ukraine showing his support for the nation as russian forces are now threatening the major city of kharkiv. can recently approved u.s. aid to ukraine get there in time to stop russia's advances? abc's james longman has the latest from ukraine. >> reporter: kharkiv is ukraine's second largest city. it feels like russia's number one target. a strike on this neighborhood not far from the city center injured five people saturday, among them two children. we have been in kharkiv a few days.

every day we hear missile and drone attacks coming in on the city. this hit a few hours ago. we heard it hit. got investigators here on site. the house ruined. you can see the crater in the garden. to the north of the city, a battle is raging. a week into russia's major incursion, at least 12 towns and villages swallowed up by their advance. more than 8,000 have fled. among them this 78-year-old woman. what's happening is she's desperate to go home. she keeps repeating it. she's crying. perhaps she hasn't understood is that it's not a place she can ever go back to. ukraine says they have stabilized the situation. i spoke exclusively with the battalion commander responsible for the defense. the aid shortage made a difference. we have a saying, the sweat of the artillerymen saves the blood of the infantrymen. when there's only sweat and no shells, more of my men die.

the commander seems pleased at the chance to strike into russia. the first time in my life, he says, i can shoot into the territory of the russian federation. speaking in china, vladimir putin wants to create a buffer zone to stop ukrainian forces from being able to launch those attacks. putin's visit to beijing to meet with xi jinping further cementing that alliance as the west stands behind ukraine. president zelenskyy told me the stalled u.s. aid package held them back and that two patriot systems would be enough to protect kharkiv. >> if we are speaking about this region, russian can't occupy this if two patriots will stay in this region. just two systems. >> reporter: americans are worried about how much money is being spent in ukraine. what's your message? >> all this money, we don't get any money. all this money, it goes to the factories in the united states. then the factory gives jobs to americans. then weapons go to us.

>> reporter: the only issue more critical than the weapons and ammunition shortage is manpower. that's why this week, a new law came into affect in ukraine which lowers the age of men drafted into the army from 27 to 25. >> martha: thanks to james. i'm joined by victoria nuland. good morning to you. these are the largest gains we have seen in russia as james just explained. president zelenskyy directly blaming the delay of foreign aid. can they turn this around? >> i think they can certainly turn this around. the six-month delay made a difference. the frontline needs the artillery we are sending. they need more air defenses. they need to be able to stop these russian attacks that are coming from bases inside russia. i think there's also a question of whether we, the united states and our allies should give them

more help in hitting russian bases, which we have not been willing to do. >> martha: do you think they should? >> i think if the attacks are coming directly from over the line in russia, that those bases ought to be fair game, whether they are where missiles are being launched from or where they are where troops are being supplied from. i think it's time for that. russia has obviously escalated this war, including as you said at the beginning, attacking russia's second city, kharkiv, which is not on the frontlines and trying to decimate it without ever having to put a boot on the ground. i think it's time to give the ukrainians more help hitting these bases inside russia. >> martha: one of the reasons the administration hesitated is because they believe it will escalate things further, pull the u.s. in. why do you think that's a good idea? >> because it's russia that's escalated the war. russia learned how to pull

forces back out of the range where we have allowed ukraine to use our weapons and get our support. they are getting a direct advantage in this war from our hesitation. they have escalated massively. they have flattened a third of kharkiv without ever having to get on the ground there. it's time to stop that and help ukraine push them back. >> martha: you have dealt with vladimir putin over multiple administrations. when you look at what's happened here and what he is doing, just tell us what you think he is up to, besides the obvious. what mistakes we have made with vladimir putin. >> clearly, at this point in his life, vladimir putin has decided that his legacy is based on restoring at least the soviet union, if not a larger empire for russia. he is defining greatness for russia in territorial terms rather than economic or

political power. he is willing to sacrifice the future not only of ukraine and his relationship with the rest of the world but of the russian people for this crazy imperial ambition. i think the covid period when he was in isolation made him more paranoid. if i had to look at one mistake we made, i think we underestimated what he was willing to do to get to this place that he wanted to get to for russia, which is territorial and not political or economic. >> martha: secretary blinken's trip to ukraine certainly sent a message the u.s. is supporting him. what would you say to those republicans who are still concerned about aid going there? or those americans who say, look, we have problems at home, why do we need this? >> obviously, we have problems at home. we need to support our domestic front and our international

front. this is about more than ukraine and more than vladimir putin. first of all, if ukraine cannot survive and thrive, putin will not stop there. he will walk towards nato. we will have a much larger war. because he will know that he can. we will become directly involved. also, if you don't stop putin here, a guy who has bitten off a piece of a smaller country that was not doing anything to hurt him, then it sends a message to autocrats everywhere that it's free game to invade your neighbor, et cetera. that will send a message in asia, to iran, all around the world. if the united states wants to lead in this world, if we want to maintain the free and open democratic order that served us so well, we have got to protect it abroad so that we can stay safe at home. to remind the vast majority of this aid for ukraine is coming right back to u.s. defense industry to build those weapons,

for us to replace the ones we send to ukraine. it provides good jobs in more than 30 states. >> martha: nato is considering sending trainers to ukraine. the u.s. has said no to that. is that the right move? >> you know, we do a huge amount of training for ukrainians in nato territory, in poland and germany and other parts of the alliance. it's hard for ukrainians to come out and come off the front to train. but i worry that nato training bases inside ukraine will become a target for vladimir putin. it does directly implicate nato on the ground, which could, as you worried about earlier, escalate the war in a different direction and cause putin to think that nato territory might be fair game for him. i think it still makes most sense to do most of the training outside of ukraine. to give advice inside ukraine as the ukrainians ask for it and

need it. >> martha: thanks for joining us this morning. it's great to see you. coming up, the "powerhouse roundtable" takes on the trump trial and the latest in the 2024 race. we'll be right back. takes on t trump trial and the latest in the 2024 race. we'll be right back. be that dif. (fisher investments) we are. we have a team of specialists not only in investing, but also also in financial and estate planning and more. (other money manager) your clients rely on you for all that? (fisher investments) yes. and as a fiduciary, we always put their interests first. (other money manager) but you still sell commission -based products, right? (fisher investments) no. we have a simple management fee structured so we do better when our clients do better. (other money manager) huh, we're more different than i thought! (fisher investments) at fisher investments, we're clearly different. can neuriva support your brain health? mary, janet, hey!! (thinking: eddie, no frasier, frank... frank?) fred! how are you?! fred... fuel up to 7 brain health indicators, including your memory. join the neuriva brain health challenge. with cascade platinum plus,

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getting out, campaigning and talking to the american people about the issues that matter to them. >> martha: top trump supporters and vp hopefuls joining the parade of gop supporters at the trump trial this week. let's bring in donna brazile, sarah isgur, asma khalid and david sanger. i want to start with you. we went from not knowing if there would be any debates to two debates. this is upending tradition. >> it is. first, ending the role of the commission on presidential debates. second, having the candidates work it out between themselves. i think the big question is, is this going to be a contained debate like the better ones that you showed at the beginning of the show?

in the ideal, we are back to the nixon/kennedy era where there was actual real discussion of speaking of new cold wars, the old cold war and strategic advantage for the united states versus its adversaries and real domestic issues. the debates have been straight downhill with occasional bumps ever since. it's going to be a real challenge to keep these on. when you think about it, if these debates go well, the moderators will force a discussion of how each candidate views democracy, how they view the importance of, say, climate change. i think we know that from the different policies. mostly, i think if we get a view of what the role of the united states is in the world, something that believe it or not has not been debated or discussed by these candidates once in the midst of the divisions we have seen. >> martha: the biden campaign is

holding firm the president will only debate twice. donald trump is offering more debates with telemundo, vice presidential debate with hbcu. >> that's right. i think what donald trump is trying to do is goad biden into participating in additional debates, specifically because they say that -- this is true, biden does have weaknesses when you look at certain minority communities. joe biden and his campaign made it clear the debate about debates is over. they want to keep this limited. they don't want to have a live audience for folks to cheer or jeer. they really want the debates to occur before early voting begins. we know early voting will begin as early as september in many states. >> martha: what do you think about the conditions of the debate? >> believe it or not, this probably helps donald trump. he may not like his mike cut off. to force him into a more disciplined debate environment will probably help him. it will empower the moderators.

it will make it watchable. the debates were unwatchable in 2020. they kept talking over each other. i have no idea what they were trying to talk about. then the debate didn't matter at all. there's actually a chance, if the mikes get cut off and we hear what they say, the moderator is in charge, that this could matter. >> martha: what do you think about the conditions? >> i think it helps the american people to separate substance from the superficial. to have two candidates stand with moderators is a better opportunity to learn about the issues that you highlighted and to get the audience out of it. i have no problem with the audience participation. but this is a serious moment for the country and for the world. i think what the president outlined and his campaign chair outlined, it's good. donald trump accepted. let's get it on. >> martha: these are two candidates who everybody is very

familiar with. you heard marc lotter and senator van hollen. was joe biden right to want this now and donald trump as well? >> he has two or three reasons. first of all, he has to get past this age debate that keeps coming back. he was on a little roll from doing well in the state of the union. >> martha: senator van hollen brought up. but you never know. >> you never know. but he has to give that a shot. secondly, by doing them this early, he has an opportunity to begin to affect those independents. this is a battle that's going to be fought among an incredibly narrow group of undecideds, in the united states. that's the group he has to go appeal to. >> i think he does need to energize his base. i think there are two things he needs to do. by doing this early, there's a sense that he does need to mobilize voters.

>> martha: which he has been trying to do. >> black voters. there are key parts of the coalition that helped elect joe biden that are seeming to have some softness in terms of his re-election. the biden campaign says voters are not tuning in. they want it to be a choice, not a referendum. the debates attempt to crystallize that. >> martha: despite how much trump has complained about being in court this week, it seems like weeks and weeks and weeks, it really doesn't seem to have hurt him. this week, of course, he had the campaign come to him. he had numerous people, jd vance, others supporting him. >> it was a spectacle. bottom line, it's true that joe biden has to work a little harder to capture the coalition that put him into the white house in 2020. he received 95% of the black women who turned out to vote, 87% of black men.

he noted this election is going to hinge on a strong, enthusiastic turnout. that's what he is doing. he has been to every battleground state. donald trump is in a courthouse trying to defend his lifestyle. >> look where the poll numbers are. >> we are in june. >> martha: stick with the court for a minute. the defense signaled it will wrap up next week. how did michael cohen do in your view? >> a few weeks ago i said i thought it was more likely than not that trump would be convicted. a huge problem for a presidential candidate to be convicted right before an election, maybe it's a close election, and have that overturned on appeal, something we saw with ted stevens during his senate race, i am not sure that the prosecution has come

close to meeting the burden. they had to prove business records were false, trump did it fraudulently and knew they were false and they have not shown much evidence that donald trump knew and that if he knew, he did it to conceal some other crime. i am not at all convinced that we're not headed towards an acquittal, hung jury. if that's the case, watch what happens to the polls then. >> martha: either way, does it affect the election at all? >> does it affect the election? i don't know what affects the election at this point. the challenge is that many voters still don't seem entirely convinced that this election will be a rematch between joe biden and donald trump. is this really going to be the nominee? to go back to the debates, that allows the contrast, the reality to set in for many that these are your options. if you want to vote, you have to

decide. >> it's up to biden to trigger trump. that's been the strategy all along. you saw even when he was calling him sleepy don the other day for falling asleep in the trial. they are doing everything they can to set trump off knowing that their best move right now is to make trump appear to be not ready to go back. >> martha: president biden formally exerted executive privilege over the audio of his interview with robert hur. the transcript is released. audio hasn't. >> this was a strange decision. if you are going to declare executive privilege, it seems strange to declare it only over the audio but not over the actual text, which tells people what it was that was said. clearly, it was done because they fear that trump and his allies will use that tape selectively and pick out little bits and pieces. i haven't quite seen a claim of

executive privilege like this. >> martha: let's go to capitol hill. or maybe not. let's go to capitol hill. what happened this week? house republicans moved to hold merrick garland in contempt over this. then this happened. >> i think your fake eyelashes are messing up -- >> hold on. >> how dare you attack the physical appearance of another person. >> are your feelings hurt? >> oh, girl, baby girl. >> really? >> you are not recognized. >> calm down. please calm down. >> don't tell me to calm down because y'all talk noise. >> you are out of control. >> martha: the speaker said that was not a good look. underplaying that. i might have said something different. how about you? >> as a former hill staffer intern, it was embarrassing. i have no words to say that could bring any light on that

situation. only to say this, when you are dealing with someone like marjorie taylor greene, who loves the camera, who loves to fund-raise off of every spoken word, this is what happens. my advice to my side of the aisle, don't take the bait. >> martha: they took the bait. david, i want to talk about the trip made by vladimir putin to china. you are writing about new cold war. what did that tell you? clearly, they are getting closer together, which is not good news for the u.s. >> a central theme in the book, in the old cold war we had one major adversary. it was mostly a military conflict with the soviet union. we now have china and russia building this partnership. i wouldn't call it a real alliance. one of our central strategic challenges is to figure out how to get in the way of that or you

are going to have a world in which there is a united states, nato and its western allies, and we are back to a china/russia/iran/north korea alternative. that's a scary picture. >> martha: it is when we have watched. everybody think the debates will happen? >> yes. >> i think so. >> martha: we will end on that note. we will be right back.

that's all for us today.

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