gb news. >> hello. good evening. it's me, jacob rees—mogg , on state of the jacob rees—mogg, on state of the nation. tonight, after my suggestion of a tory reform electoral pact which could save our chances at the next election, one nigel farage has suggested i'm a dreamer , but suggested i'm a dreamer, but live tonight i will be conducting negotiations with the man himself. the uk, southern ireland migration row continues as it emerges. the uk took 50 migrants back from ireland only months before saying we wouldn't be taking any. and the government is set to warn schools that they must not teach children that they can change their gender in a long overdue guidance against gender ideology in our schools . plus, a us in our schools. plus, a us government agency has condemned the united kingdom for religious discrimination after the arrest of a lady who silently prayed near an abortion clinic. and that very lady will join me live in the studio state of the nafion in the studio state of the nation starts now.

and i'll be joined by a particularly high powered panel this evening. the former adviser to boris johnson, lord ranger and the historian and broadcaster tessa dunlop. as always , as you know, i want to always, as you know, i want to hear from you. it's a crucial part of the programme . email me part of the programme. email me mailmogg@gbnews.com. but now it's what you've all been waiting for. the news bulletin with tatiana sanchez . with tatiana sanchez. >> jacob. thank you. the top stories this hour. slovakia's prime minister is in a critical condition and is still undergoing surgery after he was shot following a government meeting in handlova, outside the capital bratislava . officials capital bratislava. officials could be seen bundling robert ipso into a car shortly after the attacker shot five shots in the attacker shot five shots in the assassination attempt. mr feet.so was airlifted to hospital . one man feet.so was airlifted to hospital. one man has been detained by authorities. mr

feet.so one power for a fourth time last october and is implemented more pro—russian policies. he's pledged to stop military support for ukraine and threaten to veto the country's membership in nato. slovakia's interior minister says they believe the attacker had political motivation . new political motivation. new proposals could see schools in england banned from teaching students about gender identity . students about gender identity. vie. the government's review would also see all sex education halted for children under the age of nine. the prime minister ordered the review last year amid concerns some children were being exposed to inappropriate content, reports suggest parents will be provided samples of sex education content before lessons take place . emergency measures take place. emergency measures are now in place across england to deal with overcrowded prisons. it means defendants in police custody will remain there and will not be transferred to courts for bail hearings. the labour leader used today's prime minister's questions to reference a report saying high

risk prisoners are being let out up to 70 days early without sufficient planning , police sufficient planning, police could make more use of existing stop and search powers as part of new measures to tackle knife crime. the searches were curbed. a decade ago by then home secretary theresa may, after it was found minorities were being disproportionately targeted . disproportionately targeted. £55 disproportionately targeted. £35 million will disproportionately targeted. £3.5 million will be invested into developing new technology, which could help police detect suspects carrying knives by scanning them from a distance , scanning them from a distance, and more food parcels were handed out over the past year than ever before. the trussell trust says it donated more than 3 million emergency packages in the year to the end of march , as the year to the end of march, as the year to the end of march, as the cost of living puts more households under strain . more households under strain. more than a million of those were for children, and the overall total has almost doubled in just five years. the trust is calling on the government to tackle long term deficiencies in the welfare system . and for the latest

system. and for the latest stories, you can sign up to gb news alerts by scanning the qr code on your screen . or you can code on your screen. or you can go to gb news. common alerts now it's back to . jacob. it's back to. jacob. >> welcome back to state of the nafion >> welcome back to state of the nation . my suggestion of a tory nation. my suggestion of a tory reform electoral pact is picking up a little bit of steam. here's a reminder of what i had to say last night. help of nigel farage in a conservative government as a conservative minister, with bofis a conservative minister, with boris johnson probably returning as foreign secretary and welcoming the likes of ben habib and richard tice into our party, as well as pursuing genuinely conservative policies, winning the next election suddenly becomes within reach. well, this was the response of the policing minister, chris philp, when asked about my suggestion. >> i didn't see that suggestion from from jacob, who the prime minister brings into the government is up to him. my job is to is to fight crime and

support the police, and that's what i'm busy doing. >> but it didn't take long. rather bizarrely, for the liberal democrats to call for my suspension from the conservative party while calling for a strategy to help my party win the next election would constitute grounds for suspension isn't entirely clear. probably the lib dems are frit, to use lady thatcher's word of so powerful and electoral force, but without indulging in the electoral woes of the lib dems any further, i would like to reassert my suggestion that this plan is the clearest road map to an electoral victory for toryism. the reform uk electoral contract is fundamentally conservative. it appeals to conservative. it appeals to conservative voters and members, and there is an overlap which suggests that we ought to be working together. top of reform's priorities cutting government waste, slashing net migration, stopping the boats and boosting the economy. these are all policies that belong in the conservative party. if the parties remain separate, this could hand a victory to labour on a plate. and although there are some matters between reform

and the conservatives on which we disagree, not many actually all political parties are coalitions. and there's far more on which we do agree, including, i would hope, a desire to keep the socialists out of power. a labour government would do the opposite of what the electorate wants. its popularity in the polls is a sign of a desire for change, not support for its policies. labour would not stop the boats. its plan is a non plan that was recently revealed to be a copy of what the government has already doing. it would not cut mass migration. indeed, mass migration derives from new labour's ideology. labour would surrender sovereignty to the office of budget responsibility. we could practice, say goodbye to the prospect of tax cuts or meaningfully endeavouring to grow the economy. it would double down on the lunacy of net zero, spending an extra £100 billion on decarbonising the grid by 2030, just to make us cold and poor. it would have even more wokery, as it's pledged to expand the equality act with a new race equality act. all of the problems we see

in modern britain mass migration, small boats, public sector, wokery, esg, economic stagnation, statism, the list goes on would be increased by socialism and this needs to be stopped. so the answer is for the conservatives and reform to reunite the tory family. now here's what nigel said last night when he was asked about it by patrick christys we say. >> but, jacob, we're a bit of supertramp, their top track is called dreamer , and it's just called dreamer, and it's just not. it'sjust called dreamer, and it's just not. it's just not going to happen because rishi is not bold and he has no leadership whatsoever. this will not happen. even though jacob thinks it's a frightfully good idea. >> well, i will do my best to have dreams, but i know little about vagrancy . but politicians about vagrancy. but politicians need to have dreams for a greater, better, more successful country. one of the things that's so dispiriting about modern politics is the lack of a dream, a vision , a foresight for dream, a vision, a foresight for where our nation should go . and

where our nation should go. and i want that to be a conservative vision, not a managerial vision. as ever. let me know your thoughts. mar—a—lago gb news. com i'm joined now by the man himself . com i'm joined now by the man himself. soon i hope to be a conservative member of parliament and cabinet minister, the one and only nigel farage. >> jacob. thank you. well for both of us and particularly for you , this has never actually you, this has never actually been about office. >> it's about ideas and it's about how you make this country as strong as it deserves to be. >> yes, i was, i never entered politics for a career . far from politics for a career. far from it. i gave a career up to do politics indeed, as you did in many ways. look, i've said for years that jacob rees—mogg and i should be in the same party. it's always seemed ridiculous to me that we were in different political parties, because you and i think alike on many, not everything, but many, many issues. and fundamentally, you know, we're patriotic. we believe in borders. we believe in sovereignty. we believe in the little man and woman being given half a chance to go out

and create businesses and do their own thing. so we're at one on this. the problem here is twofold. firstly, i, i think you underestimate the level of contempt that is felt for the conservative party especially post 2019. it is a sense of betrayal. and the big one is immigration. the the, the sheer scale of change that is happening in our communities. you think blair was bad.7 try this for size. try this for size. the conservative party allowed more people to settle in this country in 2022 and 2023 than came from 1066 to 2010. >> i know it was 1.4 million net in two years. it is an astonishing no gross 2.7, but okay, but net 1.4. >> remember, net is a lot of british people retiring to spain or moving abroad. >> it's also students going home and things like that. >> but the numbers are stunning. i agree, the numbers are stunning, and i think that

brexit voters, and particularly the ukip type brexit voters who for the first time in their lives voted conservative in 2019, they feel an absolute sense of betrayal. that's the first problem that makes any pact of any kind unlikely to win it. you know, if it was possible , it might mitigate the level of disaster. but the other problem is this i can sit and chat with you about these things and i you know, i've got other friends on your wing of the conservative party who we campaign with in brexit and everything else. you are jacob. not amongst the members, not amongst the voters, but within the parliamentary party. you are outnumbered three or 4 to 1. you do not represent the centre of gravity of the current conservative parliamentary party, the thing that seems to me to mitigate against all of this is that if you were to be a leading figure within the conservative party, there would be absolute reassurance that at last we were serious about migration . you serious about migration. you could not be in a conservative cabinet that wasn't doing it properly, unless we were

continuing the con on the british people. but then you wouldn't do it.7 no, i wouldn't do it. that in terms of the parliamentary party, dare i say that most members of parliament, of all parties actually want to win their seat at the next election? i think the number who are, avowedly pro—european and resent the brexit result is actually quite small and that if the prime minister were to take a lead on this now, that may be a lead on this now, that may be a big if there is a real opportunity because it's where the nation is. you see, you said we should both be in the same party. and i think if we were both in the same party, what we are offering to the electorate is what a plurality of voters want. it would win a majority. well, the difference would then be implemented. >> the difference is i'm in a party, albeit honorary president, that i agree with. you're in a party that you disagree with. >> well, i agree with all the members of the concerned. >> but you disagree with policies elements you disagree with net zero. you disagree with what they've done on legal migration. >> you disagree with legal

migration, i'm glad to say, is being changed. and we are getting that under control. >> absolutely no evidence to support that whatsoever. there has been i've been hearing this for the last two years, but i think some of the changes last yean think some of the changes last year, the boats are still coming. the boats are up 20% this year so far. >> absolutely. accept that, in terms of net zero, we've got to delay net zero indefinitely. it is a failed policy. jacob. >> jacob, that's your view. >> jacob, that's your view. >> absolutely right. but it's an increasing view amongst conservative because it's not working. and the conservative party, how would you sum up the last 14 years of conservative government. >> you know, marks out of ten. what would you say, jake? >> well, there are different penods >> well, there are different periods and different bits, but we got the referendum to leave the european union. the biggest, not something the conservatives wanted to do. >> they were forced to do it from the outside. >> the conservative members and voters wanted it though. yeah. and you see, i think it's trusting the people. is the heart of the politics, the new and i represent that. the combined wisdom of the electorate is greater than that of whitehall and of the palace of whitehall and of the palace of westminster. the people wanted brexit. and actually, for

all sorts of criticisms, you would like to make of him, david cameron gave us the referendum. he was willing to trust the people. >> he may have hated the result scared out of his life of what ukip was doing to his vote. he was scared of defections happening. he didn't want to do it. he never wanted to do it, and then we had a period where your party gave us a prime minister that frankly, wilfully tried to vandalise it. i mean, you've got to accept, jacob, that the record is just there are problems with the apart from brexit, apart from brexit, there are definitely problems with brexit. what is your record in 14? >> well, i think ian duncan smith did a great deal with reform of welfare. and i think that michael gove's reforms of education, which are still yielding fruit 14 years on, were tremendously important. so there are big things that have been done. are big things that have been done . employment is higher than done. employment is higher than it's ever been. pretty much . it's ever been. pretty much. >> so are people opting out of employment and living on benefits? that's absolutely right. there's no that is that is no. that is no point. you and i arguing about policy. >> but we want we want to change that. >> my point is this. my point is

this a prime minister in rishi sunak, perfectly decent man, intelligent man, a man that puts bnngs intelligent man, a man that puts brings back david cameron. what? as foreign secretary is not even going to contemplate talking to richard tice , what would it take richard tice, what would it take for you to come back to the tory party a tory party, a tory? >> so we want the same thing a tory party, not a not the old school tory party but the radical new form of conservatism that embraces people from all classes yields the promises of brexit and, and, and actually gives the people of this country half a chance and is unashamed about about putting the british people before international agreements. >> yes. >> yes. >> and is proud of our history of course, all of those things. >> and i think we're miles away from that at this moment in time, you say, i think the majority of conservative members are there, the majority of conservative voters. >> oh, i agree, and we just need i agree coalition together, you know. and it has i came to your conference, i came to your conference. you were mobbed. >> you know, i was mobbed by my conservative activists, donors, members. but most of your most

of your colleagues walked past me and turn their heads to the side. >> well, i certainly didn't. we're almost there. we are getting we are getting a huge progress being made with me and nigel negotiating how to get a tory party. that is as tory as can be.i tory party. that is as tory as can be. i will be continuing the discussion regarding my proposals for a tory reform electoral pact a little later. plus, could we finally be seeing an end to gender ideology in schools

? well, i'm still jacob rees—mogg, as you probably know by now. and joining me to react to my proposal is a former labour spokesman and political commentator, james mathewson, as well as my panel, former adviser to boris johnson, lord ranger and the historian and broadcaster tessa dunlop, james, thank you very much for coming in. this would terrify the labour party, wouldn't it? >> i think terrify is a strong

word , and i think some might word, and i think some might even be inspired, perhaps by the conversation you just had with nigel farage, because it didn't show much agreement . i would say show much agreement. i would say the one thing i would say that was if i can, you know , be be was if i can, you know, be be bold for a moment, jacob, is that it almost looked like nigel held all the cards. and i think from a labour perspective that's a very, very positive thing. >> but labour's been moving as far and as fast to the right as it can, even taking their old natalie elphicke into its fold. if we actually took the ground where voters are and the popular policies that reform and the conservatives agree on, labour would suddenly find a very different game , there would it different game, there would it would be a challenge. >> i think you're absolutely right. and this is why the natalie elphicke care situation is concerned many people, because the other conversation with somebody today in parliament who said that the smarter thing would have been to say behind the scenes, come on in, we'll have you and then at the last minute say no, the values we don't agree. and that's the political games that should have been played or that they hope should have been played because so many people

now have to defend natalie elphicke and they're automatically aligned with her, and they're finding that quite difficult. >> but it's interesting because it's reminded all political parties are coalitions and therefore if you wish to win elections, you have to unite your side of politics in one party, recognising that that is a coalition. if you divide it, as labour found with the sdp, you're out of for office a long time. >> yeah, this is the concern and the coalition for labour is in so many different directions. you've got a north—south divide, you've got scotland which doesn't even come into it. you know, before you consider that, because they can't, they can't get that majority without those seats. so they've got the snp battle up there. and then of course they've got the battle of left right. they've got israel, they've got palestine, they've got all these different issues to try and hold that coalition together. and of course they'll be very nervous about that at the moment. but i don't think if i could be bold, you do be bold. your proposal will frighten them any more than that already frightened. right. >> well, let me bring my panel in. but let's first of all see that the prime minister approved this suggestion a few months ago when he was talking to our very

own christopher hope. >> nigel farage is wandering around your conference first time in decades. would you have him back as a member of the tory party? no. >> the tory party is a very broad church, right? i welcome lots of people who want to subscribe to our ideals, to our values. right. >> so, rishi sunak is happy with this. so we can have him have him in. well as you just heard the prime minister say, we welcome anyone who prescribes to our values. and i think there's the sense of what is it that bnngs the sense of what is it that brings someone like nigel farage into the tory party >> it's not the tory party moving towards nigel farage. and i think that's the big difference that we have to understand, jacob. and i'd say , understand, jacob. and i'd say, you know, because we heard there, nigel, that very interesting conversation that you both had and within a couple of minutes you were disagreeing because, look , no one can take because, look, no one can take away from nigel farage has been away from nigel farage has been a very effective politician , a a very effective politician, a maverick, a person who is disagreeing on values. >> were we were disagreeing on the track record of the conservative government yes. and some of his criticisms are quite

valid that we did brexit in spite of the conservative officialdom, even though all our members were desperate for brexit, or the vast majority of them. yes. >> but the point of being in the party is you're a team player and you have to take the rough with the smooth and the challenges that we face. but you are quite rightly putting back to him the immense reforms that have been made in welfare. the work that's been done on the economy, the high level of employment, all of the wins that the conservative party, the government has been living in. well, the, the, the, the government has done so here we have a politician, a maverick. he's a man who's successful at protesting in getting motivated people around the protests that he's trying to make. but inside a collegiate , most successful a collegiate, most successful election winning party does . you election winning party does. you have a place he has to move towards it if he wants to be part of it. >> tessa, you're an interested spectator on this really? yes. >> i'm so thoroughly relieved. i don't have any skin in your filthy game, i can assure you. i mean, watching you two sort of pred mean, watching you two sort of ripped chunks out of each other,

it's like looking at sort of two, slathering mad men trapped in a bedroom without daylight. >> so elegantly phrased. >> so elegantly phrased. >> thank you very much for the compliment, i think one forgets, including you, despite your sort of historic flag waving, that it's not the conservative party, it's not the conservative party, it's the conservative and unionist party. party and the way you behave and the damage that was done on the great british union across in ireland, nonh british union across in ireland, north of the border in scotland, with this sort of revolting engush with this sort of revolting english nationalism where you pandered to the lowest common denominator, treating anyone who didn't sort of go back to anglo—saxon england. and once upon a time had an ancestor who pulled a plough as somebody no worth no more than a bit place on a barge on its way to rwanda makes me feel profoundly depressed. there used to be a role in the conservative party for what are you talking about, brexit? >> because i'm a bit confused. i'm talking about what she's talking about on this. >> this is the brexit debate was had across the political spectrum, from from all sides.

we've now politically entered run by the conservatives now the national conversation is absolutely hijacked by immigration figures, concerns about boats and rwanda. i'm so sorry, but it's true. and that's in the wake of brexit. >> in favour of controlling migration is not english nationals ism. >> brexit was an english nationalist, predominantly . nationalist, predominantly. >> well the welsh voted for brexit. >> they did, they did, but it was predominantly an english nationalist and there was actually a good vote for brexit. >> both in northern ireland and in scotland. >> it was a sizeable minority. >> it was a sizeable minority. >> if so, it's not this minor engush >> if so, it's not this minor english nationalist view. it is a view held by many people . any a view held by many people. any view where 87% of the population is from one part of the country can be described as being primarily english. on that basis, it's not really a fair way of looking. >> i don't think that we can give northern ireland and scotland any of the responsible, maybe a 3% on this predominantly. i think we can recognise. i mean, in many ways there are similarities between and this is ironic given you're and this is ironic given you're a profess to be a unionist. the

foot soldiers of independence in scotland actually have much in common with the foot soldiers of brexit. but i think brexit has strengthened the union. >> but james, i'm going to give you the last word as a labour party spectator. >> thank you. yes, i would say the fascinating thing that still amazes me and amazes many people across the country , is the hold across the country, is the hold that nigel farage has on you, on you, on the conservatives across the board. you're obsessed with him. you think the man is, i don't know, he's you know, he's turning water into wine. he's he's got some kind of ability that he doesn't have and i just do not see it. and in the conversations i hear in northern england, the conversations i hearin england, the conversations i hear in real working class communities are do not see this obsession with him either. >> or i would like. no, i'm so sorry. >> i'm going to cut tessa off. isn't that so? did you hear that? probably not worth listening to. thank you very much , james. and my brilliant much, james. and my brilliant panel much, james. and my brilliant panel. and joining me now is former liberal democrat mp norman baker. now norman, very welcome to you this evening . one welcome to you this evening. one of your former, fellows in the

lib dem party wants me to resign over this or be fired . now, that over this or be fired. now, that seems a little bit extreme, don't you think? >> well, look, i'm not here to represent the lib dems, but my view on politics has always been that people should be free to express their views within a quite a degree of tolerance and if you remember my role in parliament, i was quite often at odds with my party and happy to be so. and i think there's a tendency in all political parties these days, unfortunately, to try to cajole people into, into in a narrow point of view, they may not share . and i think parliament is share. and i think parliament is better when people speak their minds a bit, within reason, of course, but to have an independent mind, people like frank field, i'm thinking about former mps like that, actually made parliament better rather than worse. so i think that if you've got a particular view, which you have expressed, then my view is, why shouldn't you express it? it's obviously up to rishi sunak whether he does something about you or not, but, that's my personal take on it . that's my personal take on it. >> yes. well, no. well, i rather

agree with you. i think very often individuals who disagree with their party, add to the party rather than taking away from it. but do you agree with me that all parties, including the lib dems, are coalitions ? the lib dems, are coalitions? and that to be successful in politics, you need to make that coalition as broad as it is practicable to make it . practicable to make it. >> well, now, in principle, i think the way you phrased the question, i think is right that parties are coalitions and yes , parties are coalitions and yes, the wider the coalition, in the sense the more people seem to be caughtin sense the more people seem to be caught in a net of it in those terms. what i would say, however, is and i'm trying to look at this objectively, jacob, rather than from a partisan point of view, is, of course, if there were no reform party, the conservatives would do better the next election because that's where the vote would go, the question really is whether or not if there is a sort of pact or some sort of arrangement as you put forward, whether that would lead to the result which you wish to see? i'm not sure it would, because there are plenty of conservative votes , of conservative votes, particularly amongst, say, in

the south and what's called the blue wall, who actually are the andy street type people who believe that elections are what are fought and won in the centre, not towards the edge, the edge of either left or right. and well, you may gain some people and reinforce your core votes by such an arrangement with nigel farage and his party. richard tice you may actually lose people who are of your fashion conservative type who might well switch to the lib dems. and if you look at the lib dems. and if you look at the by—election results in this parliament, people concentrate on the labour ones. actually, the swing to the lib dems in the blue wall have been actually larger, and i think there's a vulnerability from the conservative party from the point up to a point. >> if you look at the polling, the tory vote has roughly halved of that, three quarters is either staying at home or has gone to reform , and a quarter gone to reform, and a quarter seems to have gone to lib dems, labour and the greens. and in the by elections, the lib dem vote and the labour vote hasn't been particularly high in

comparison with previous general elections. so yes, they've won . elections. so yes, they've won. but because of a huge number of conservatives not turning up . so conservatives not turning up. so i just wonder whether this is a means of motivating our base to turn out to vote. >> well, i mean, i've heard conservative ministers, i call it whistling in the dark , it whistling in the dark, suggesting that everybody will come home on election day and all these people who haven't been voting conservative will suddenly turn up and vote conservative. i don't actually believe it. i mean, i'm sure the conservatives will run a campaign of, may i say, a campaign of, may i say, a campaign of, may i say, a campaign of fear because they have done in every election since 1924. so this one will be different. i mean, it depends what the issue will be, in my election in 2015, it's about scottish nationalists and so on. i mean, there's always an issue where you frighten people into voting for conservative. but i think this time nigel farage started off with his contribution tonight with you saying that there was i don't wish to be rude, jacob, but contempt for the conservative party, as it presently is. and i think there's a degree of that which isn't related to just the issues that you've been talking about. it's also related to the economy, to the nhs, to the

state of public services, to the potholes and the roads, all those sorts of things. i think people just feel that usually old fashioned political phrase, it's old fashioned political phrase, wsfime old fashioned political phrase, it's time for a change. and i don't think personally, i mean, it's up to you what you do, but i think personally, an alliance with reform will not get you the result you want. all right. >> well, thank you very much, norman. always good to hear from you. coming up, have we finally reached some common sense when it comes to sex education? plus, as the uk become a place in which christians are discriminated against for the crime of silent prayer.

well, we were having a feisty discussion on tory and the reform party having an electoral pact. and we've got lots of mailbox. cowell says love the idea of nigel. richard, ben, etc. joining together with the conservatives. what a dream party that would make adding ann widdecombe and mark francois and i would be first in line to vote steve when the tories lose. if

they fetch boris back, they will never get in power again. as for having reformed, no, no no , we having reformed, no, no no, we tried that with boris and he let us down. peter the only way you can arrive at a reformed conservative party is for you. and the one third of your colleagues to move over to reform the clue is in the name, and the effect would be electric . not sure we're allowed electric anymore under the net zero rules. and gary, rather than trying to get nigel to join the conservatives, wouldn't it be easier for real conservative mps to defect to reform? well, the difficulty with that is that the difficulty with that is that the tory party, the conservative party since 1834, relatively recently , is my party and it is recently, is my party and it is the party that has had such an important role in this nation's history that it is the tory party that ought to be the holder of the torch. according to reports, minister will tell schools tomorrow that they must not teach children about changing gender. the government will warn that explicit consultations about sex should not take place until children turn 13. staff will be told that

if asked, they should only teach biological facts about sex. with the new guidance recognising that gender identity is a highly contested issue . the guidance contested issue. the guidance will go a step further, though, stating that children should not receive any form of sex education in primary school. in an age where gender ideology has become so entrenched in our pubuc become so entrenched in our public institutions, is this move finally seems to be bringing some common sense back into the debate? well, i'm joined now. i'm still joined now by my panel. former adviser to bofis by my panel. former adviser to boris johnson, lord ranger, and the historian and broadcaster tessa dunlop, tessa, is this at last some common sense ? last some common sense? >> well, i sort of feel like i'm at the coalface of parenting. i'm a little bit old, but i have a five year old, so she's in the first year of primary school, goes to an inner city primary school. so i get all the kind of stories off the grapevine filtered through the unedited vocal cords of a five year old who has come out with a couple of extraordinary sentences , and of extraordinary sentences, and there has been a furore in those , you know, in some of the school clubs and groups and etc.

in a very inappropriate behaviour from a from a boy just eight years old with his sister. out of the mouths of babes and sucklings. if you do that, i'll squeeze my nuts into you. goodness, she wasn't talking about her breakfast cereal, etc, you know, so these these things are they are they are weaponized often in the playground at a very young age, among certain groups of children, they don't necessarily even have a clue what they're talking about or what they're talking about or what they're talking about or what they're doing. and the idea that we are going to rescind or withdraw the ability of the teaching staff to interact with them in a well intentioned , them in a well intentioned, guided fashion simply because of an age stipulation coming down from on high in a conservative party. i find it very worrying. >> aren't there things that children actually just don't understand? >> yes, which is why they need guidance. >> but they need guidance at the right age. because if you say things to children when they're too young, they don't know what you're talking about. so it's and children are enormously susceptible when they're little.

they believe anything that they're, they're told they have great confidence in the adults around them. and therefore you've got to be quite cautious about what you say. i can assure you that the case of this eight year old lad, etc. was not because he'd been given sex education in the classroom in the group of schools that i know in lambeth. >> and i know this from my older daughter. they weren't taught any sex education until year six, which is the age of 11. and then i had to give consent. so actually this is about children picking it up from goodness knows where and the idea that, oh, parents should lead this some parents simply aren't in the right space or able to cover the right space or able to cover the issue of parents. >> leading is one i'm not necessarily very keen on. i've never really wanted to have this discussion. those conversations. >> yes, because wise jacobs ended up with six children himself. >> oh well, good work jacob, but ihave >> oh well, good work jacob, but i have two children as well. one five year old and a three year old. my five year old wouldn't be saying this, but if he did, he'd be repeating something he heard an adult say, but not under standing what it meant. or another child, another child and repeating. but even that child would have probably got it from

an adult. so we do have to look at the responsibility for for parents what they do. i do not believe that we as parents, can completely absolve ourselves of our educational responsibilities, our behavioural responsibilities, our language responsibilities . our language responsibilities. i'm as guilty of it as the next parent of having said something . parent of having said something. it's coming out of the mouth of my children and me wondering where did they get that from? and then realising i probably said it but isn't this an important aspect of it that the responsibility of parents is the fundamental one of children and the state tries to take it over and the state then takes it over badly ? that's exactly right. and badly? that's exactly right. and also then we're looking to open up all children to these things, whether they're ready or not. what the state is trying to do is actually standardise an approach to say, at the age of nine, let's have an appropriate level and what we think is right to be said. they're not leave it open so that what we're seeing is a patchwork quilt of approaches across schools and different regions to this very delicate, very sensitive topic that parents are all concerned about.

>> but you suggest that children are getting these ideas from parents. the internet. you've forgotten about the bogeyman in the corner called the internet. a lot of children have unfettered access to screens, tablets . they influence each tablets. they influence each other, trickles to down nine year olds to six year old parents doing unfettered access to, say, pornography on the internet. >> my kids use their tablets, but not all have restrictions. do yoga and cycle and are called we have we have restrictions lie—ins we know what they're watching. we have to control. we have to manage that is our responsibility. >> my worry is for the children who don't have parents. >> yes, i agree with you on that. and that's where then there is someone who has to step in and a school could have a role to play in stepping in. in those occasional instances where parents are letting their children down. >> but tessa, your argument is the classic argument of the left because there are some parents who aren't very capable . all the who aren't very capable. all the same, the state must take over the education of all children in this area, and that can't be right that it must be primarily the responsibility of parents

and some parents may be able to preserve that gentle innocence of their children , who really of their children, who really don't need to know about some of these things. at five and six. >> and at the moment, children, most children are five and six are not being taught about sex education, but where you have concern, where things are being spoken are teachers need to feel they are enabled and permitted to intervene and address it, and we need to trust them. and what's interesting is you flip that accusation on its head . you that accusation on its head. you accuse me there of, you know, because one parent's bad. everyone else needs to fall into line. it's exactly what the conservative party has done over the teachers. you know, one teacher spoke about 72 different genders and a bj or something. and then all teachers are brandished unfit to teach younger children about sex education. >> there was that there wasn't enough guidance for the teachers to be told, actually, this is what you need to be doing. so this is where clarity is required. structure is required, clear instructions for teachers where they can what they should be saying and therefore they understand what parents want and what the government is asking

them to do. it's all about clarity and people being comfortable about what their children will learn in a school environment if they need to intervene further, then there's a different question to be asked, and i think then we look at it in a different way . at it in a different way. >> well, that is a good point at which to end the conversation. thank you very much to my panel. coming up next, i'll be speaking once again to a christian woman who was arrested for silently praying outside an abortion clinic as her case makes headunesin clinic as her case makes headlines in the united states. do we have religious freedom here in the united kingdom?

well, we were talking about gender and sex education. and your views have been fired in sydney. says parents should absolutely have an input into what is being taught. schools teach on behalf of parents legally. and reg says take away mobile phones and no sex education for under 11 years of age. let them be children again , age. let them be children again, police it if necessary. and

richard, i agree with the government on this occasion as the schools have gone too far on this subject. well richard, i'm delighted you agree with the government. so do i on previous episodes of state of the nation, we've highlighted the appalling treatment of a christian lady, isabel vaughan spruce , who was isabel vaughan spruce, who was arrested after praying silently outside an abortion clinic in birmingham. >> what are you here for today ? >> what are you here for today? >> what are you here for today? >> physically, i'm just standing here, okay? >> why here? of all places? >> why here? of all places? >> i know you don't live nearby, but this is an abortion sometime. are you praying? >> i might be praying in my head right now , so i'll ask you once more. >> will you voluntarily come with us now to the police station? >> if i've got a choice, then ho. 110. >> no. >> okay, well, then you're under arrest on suspicion of failing to comply with the public spaces protection order, which is under the anti—social behaviour, crime and policing act 2014. >> well after a public backlash and finding no legal basis to justify the arrest, west midlands police apologised and released her without charge. now

the us commission on international religious freedom included the incident in its annual list of violations of religious freedom around the world, leading the incident to be labelled a global embarrassment for the united kingdom. with me now is isabel vaughan spruce and isabel, thank you so much forjoining me again, do you now feel really completely vindicated that saying something in your head, praying privately cannot be an offence in a free country, can it? >> it certainly shouldn't be. i think we've still got concerns that there's maybe not enough clarity as yet, because we've got buffer zones that are imminent and they've already been voted in. and we need to be very, very clear that this isn't going to happen either to myself or other people in the future, then they're not going to be criminalised simply for their, their silent prayers, or, you know, imperceptible thoughts when they're standing on a pubuc when they're standing on a public street . public street. >> and you were standing there by yourself . it wasn't a group by yourself. it wasn't a group of you. there was no element of protest. nobody necessarily

would have noticed you going in and out of the abortion clinic. >> so i was just standing a distance away from the abortion centre. i wasn't trespassing on their property, like you say. no leaflets, no poster. the fact that the police had to actually ask me, are you praying? why are you here? what are your prayers for? when i was at the police station, i was questioned about what my prayers were clearly, they didn't know without asking me whether i was even praying or not. so they were imperceptible thoughts, and the fact that this should be, something which is branded as criminal nowadays is really concerning. i mean, we've got abortion laws becoming more and more liberal in our country, it's being debated whether we'll have them up till birth, right at the moment. and yet, silent prayer is being branded as criminal. i think it really shows how disordered we are in our society today. >> and how long were you detained for by the west midlands police, so i've been arrested twice now , both arrested twice now, both occasions, one of them was an hour or so . one of them was much hour or so. one of them was much longer, was sort of 4 or 5

hours, locked in a police cell and then questioned under caution. >> and have they now apologised to you? now you've won your legal case, i had an apology for the length of time it took, but even since then, i've been given tickets, told i'll be given , tickets, told i'll be given, fines for standing and silently praying on, on the streets. so i still think there isn't enough clarity about this issue, and as i say, at a time when, we're seeing abortion laws liberalised constantly, we've got constant threats to our laws, and i think it's threats to our laws, and i think wsfime threats to our laws, and i think it's time we need to, you know, address really what the elephant in the room is if we don't know what human life is, how can we know what human rights are, it's really basic. >> and the american group has held you up as an example of a lack of religious freedom . from lack of religious freedom. from your experience, do you feel there is still religious freedom in this country, or that it's in fact limited and constrained ? fact limited and constrained? >> i think there are huge concerns around religious freedom at the moment. clearly

it's generally christians who are praying near abortion centres, although there are some other religious groups and some who don't have any faith at all, but the fact that they're particularly targeting people who are praying, asking them, are you praying? what are your prayers for this shows discrimination. discrimination against those of us who have a christian faith. and that's something which you're pointing out is very concerning . out is very concerning. >> well, isabel, thank you very much for joining >> well, isabel, thank you very much forjoining me. it's worth much for joining me. it's worth pointing out the home office has made a reply in relation to this. it said. in march, authorities in birmingham arrested and launched an investigation against isabel vaughan spruce for silently praying outside an abortion clinic within a buffer zone where a city council order prohibits protests, including prayer. by the end of september, the city announced that it would not charge miss vaughan spruce . not charge miss vaughan spruce. well, joining me now is lorcan price, irish barrister and legal counsel for alliance for defending freedom. well, lorcan , defending freedom. well, lorcan, thank you very much for coming in. okay. is the law clear or doesit in. okay. is the law clear or does it still need further clarity ? clarity? >> the law is not clear and, at

the moment the home office is engagedin the moment the home office is engaged in a process. the home secretary of introducing ministerial guidance around the pubuc ministerial guidance around the public order act. and it's still not clear really where we stand, because, as isabel pointed out there, parliament has criminalised so—called influencing within these zones, but without setting out clearly what that will involve. and it may still involve silent prayer , may still involve silent prayer, it may involve shocking to even consensual conversations between people . and we hope that the people. and we hope that the guidance that the minister will bnng guidance that the minister will bring out will actually put a lot of clarity into the what is a very vague term. but isabel admitted she'd been praying. >> if you're just standing there and you don't say to the police that you are praying, how on earth do they know? >> well, they can't possibly know, but if you if you read the supreme court decision on the northern ireland buffer zones, they talk about silent but reproachful presence as being something that could be possibly prohibited. and these public spaces protection orders are so widely drawn that it could well take into account behaviour that isn't otherwise totally unobtrusive . and again, when you

unobtrusive. and again, when you see this term influencing is the possibility of your presence as a known person who may be pro—life or oppose abortion, does that create a situation where you're in breach of these buffer zone laws? >> but in the normal course of events, parliament legislates, and then the courts interpret what that legislation means, that it's a constant process of refinement, that all laws are subject to the use of language, and language is not always entirely precise. isn't this just the normal process of law? and there will be a series of cases which will determine the power of the law, and then we have to decide whether that law allows religious freedom or not. >> well, as you're aware, it's a long standing principle in the common law that criminal acts should be precisely drawn so that people are able to govern their conduct so as not to fall foul of the criminal law. and i'm afraid that that's not the case when it comes to the legislation in this area. and some of your colleagues, mark lewer mp or sorry, andrew lewer mp, for example, and others criticised it for that very reason at the time that it was introduced and voted against it. and so the difficulty we have

for isabel and for others is that they are not entirely clear as to whether or not their conduct trespasses into the zone of criminality . and this new of criminality. and this new provision, section nine of the pubuc provision, section nine of the public order act 2023, gives no further clarity. i'm afraid so. as i say, it's hoped that the home office will act here to avoid the type of embarrassment that the country has suffered as a result of a us federal government agency suggesting that christians are being targeted up to a point. >> actually, i slightly baulk at being told by foreign governments this sort of stuff, but this is an ally and a friendly country. >> yeah, i know sometimes friends have to be honest. >> actually, america thinks it rules the world and doesn't rule the united kingdom. i don't like being told what to do by the americans. it gets my back up. i'm very pro—american, but i don't want to be told what to do by them. and lots of things wrong in the united states. they shoot at each other all the time, sure, but i think sometimes we need to listen to friends when they give us honest advice. >> and i hear here, this case is so egregious, really, that it deserved to be it deserved to be

highlighted. >> i don't know, they don't like it when we advise them. do you remember when the guardian wrote people in ohio telling them to vote against george bush? the americans didn't like that a bit. well, i think being told who to vote for is those residents of ohio. >> i think you're entirely correct. being told who to vote for certainly is going too far. >> definitely. but we should be worried because we want to maintain religious freedom. >> precisely. and it's an unusual thing in the country that gave the world concepts of personal freedom and human rights to find police, the spectacle of police officer asking if someone's praying in their head. >> i actually feel rather sorry for the individual policemen for whom it's a great responsibility in unclear law. >> we shouldn't put the police in this position. and that's why clarity in the law is so important. and as i say, it's a long standing principle of the common law. >> brilliant. well, thank you very much. that's all from me. up very much. that's all from me. up next, it's patrick christys. patrick. what are you going to be talking about this evening? >> well, i think climate change is the new religion. jacob which is the new religion. jacob which is why sadiq khan has gone off to meet the pope to talk about ulez. i'm also going to be making quite a strong point that primary school children should not be sexualised by teachers. i

think the government has done a good thing by delaying sexual education in schools. on that note, i am joined by david bailey's son, sasha, who's going to tell me how he very nearly became a woman and how easy it was for him to do that. lee anderson is on talking about how many illegal migrants who've taken back from the irish, and a gb news exclusive on monsters released early from prison due to overcrowding. >> well, that's what we're going to be marvellous, and everyone will be praying for a brilliant, brilliant program as always. that's coming up after the weather. i'll be back tomorrow at 8:00. i am, in case you've forgotten, jacob rees—mogg and this has been state of the nation. and you know what the weather's like in somerset. it's going to be so good tomorrow. it's going to be the best tip top. glorious, wonderful, happy weather. >> a brighter outlook with boxt solar sponsors of weather on . gb news. >> good evening. welcome to your latest weather update from the met office here on gb news. sunny spells for many tomorrow, but there will be some heavy showers across the south yet again. northern scotland may well see the highest

temperatures as low pressure dominating down to the southwest, and this weather fronts provided a thicker zone of cloud across central areas . of cloud across central areas. that rain from that weather front, though, is tending to peter out , as front, though, is tending to peter out, as are front, though, is tending to peter out , as are the heavier peter out, as are the heavier showers we saw earlier. just a bit of rain just returning to parts of the east coast as we go through the night. for many it will be a dry night, quite murky and misty on eastern coast, and some fog is possible across parts of the south as temperatures generally drop to about 10 to 12 celsius. any mist and fog in the south should be clearing away, so generally out of the way. by the time we get to the morning rush hour. but quite a lot of cloud across east anglia and parts of the south—east, where there may well be 1 or 2 showers, some of that rain feeding into lincolnshire as well. generally a fine start for wales. most of northern ireland as well, and a good part of scotland again, dry and fine with sunny spells, the breeze coming in from the north sea so the east coast will be chilly, but again northern scotland in the sunshine. we'll see those temperatures really jumping up through the course of the day. it's going to stay fairly dull

and cool though. in northeast england some outbreaks of rain here, and we'll see a bit more rain coming into east anglia, lincolnshire then across the midlands during the afternoon , midlands during the afternoon, the potential for some quite heavy showers breaking out across the midlands, southern england and south wales. some torrential downpours are possible in the brighter spells in the south, 20 degrees, but the highest temperatures likely to be across parts of scotland. in the northwest, 2324 is possible cooler on the north sea coast, with that breeze coming in which is still around on friday, again turning things misty at times. again on friday we'll watch the showers developing across parts of england and wales, especially again some heavy ones are possible, but they'll be very hit and miss. a good part of the day will be dry and bright, and in the sunny spells it'll feel pretty warm once more. bye for now . how. >> now. >> looks like things are heating up boxt boilers as sponsors of weather on

gb news. >> it's 9 pm. i'm patrick christie's tonight . people are christie's tonight. people are police, too. afraid of being called racist to stop the machete madness. and express. >> also agree. ulez is the most effective policy in cleaning up our air in the world. >> sadiq khan flies off to lecture the pope about ulez. the climate cult is a new religion . climate cult is a new religion. in. stop teaching nine year old kids about sex in schools. also, no one should be put on this scheme if they are a threat to the public. >> and let me be crystal clear, it does not apply to me. >> absolutely. it does not apply to anyone serving a life sentence. >> well, a gb news exclusive proves that this isn't true and

can't confirm that the