been made. terror threat has been made. what on earth is going on.7 i want to dig deep into this tonight. is it right that those games should be going ahead .7 games should be going ahead? would you be going to those matches? what about safety here in the uk? and more broadly, should the terror threat be raised? what about this new definition as well of extremism ? definition as well of extremism? have we got that right? are we deaung have we got that right? are we dealing with this in the correct manner or not? and what about years ago? do you remember isis? apparently warned of flooding europe they called europe with what they called soldiers disguised as refugees. do we took that threat do you think we took that threat seriously enough ? yeah, indeed. seriously enough? yeah, indeed. that's all to come in the next houn that's all to come in the next hour. but before we get stuck in, let's cross live to polly middlehurst for tonight's latest news headlines. >> michelle, thank you and good evening to you. well, as you've been hearing, european football's governing body has

insisted that all this week's insisted that all of this week's champions quarterfinals champions league quarter finals will go ahead as planned, despite islamic state terror despite an islamic state terror threat. arsenal will be hosting bayern munich at the emirates stadium tonight. man city are in action. they're away to real madrid, the metropolitan police says it does have a robust policing plan in place for tonight's game in london. islamic state claiming responsibility for that attack. just last month on a moscow concert hall which resulted in the deaths of more than 140 people. well, gb news has been speaking to some optimistic fans ahead of tonight's game at the emirates stadium. >> absolutely. i think it'll be a tough match over the two legs. and yeah, not overly worried about the security. you know, we've got faith in the we've got to have faith in the british police and the, you know, you know, know, security vie you know, everything they've set up. everything that they've set up. so and hopefully so have faith and hopefully everything will be all right. >> it's not about the religion. it's about some people who want to scare other people. and we are only here for football .

are only here for football. >> i used to live here and we had threats growing up, and you just have to get on with life and just you can walk down the street and anything can happen to you. so you just have to keep going and hope for the best. >> the foreign secretary has said in the interests said today it's in the interests of united states security of the united states security that fails in that president putin fails in his invasion of ukraine. his illegal invasion of ukraine. lord was reiterating the lord cameron was reiterating the uk for ukraine in their uk support for ukraine in their war with russia, and urged american politicians to release billions of dollars of extra funding to boost ukraine's military, warning that failing to so would put western to do so would put western security at risk. he was speaking in washington after a meeting with the us secretary of state. he said continued support for ukraine is vital. >> put simply, we know what works. we know what they need and we know what is right for us in terms of what works. we know that if we give the ukrainians the support they deserve, they can win this they can can win this war. they can achieve the just peace that they

deserve. they've sunk 25% of russia's black sea fleet. they've inflicted over 350,000 casualties on russian armed forces, who launched this unprovoked and unjustified . unprovoked and unjustified. aggression. and we know that if we keep on backing them, we can lead this to the right conclusion . conclusion. >> david cameron, now the uk has been taking part in the largest international airdrop of aid into gaza. on a single day, nine nafions into gaza. on a single day, nine nations and 14 aircraft joined in the operation, delivering essential food, water and other suppues essential food, water and other supplies civilians . over supplies to civilians. over a two week period, the royal air force has dropped over 53 tonnes of aid into gaza as the uk works to ramp up deliveries to gaza by land, air and sea. the ministry of defence has said today's airdrop is part of the uk's efforts to provide vital humanitarian assistance to the people gaza, and follows people of gaza, and it follows the announcement of a package of military and civilian support to

set up a maritime aid corridor into gaza . it news here at home, into gaza. it news here at home, a 20 year old man has been released on bail pending further enquiries by police investigating the discovery of a human torso wrapped in plastic in manchester, greater manchester police had arrested the man on suspicion of murder at the weekend after the discovery at a salford nature reserve. a major incident team of detectives and specialist units are continuing to search local wetlands with divers and search dogs also being deployed . search dogs also being deployed. the lead campaigner and former sub—post master, alan bates, has told the inquiry i'm looking into the post office horizon scandal that they spent 23 years attempting to discredit and silence him . the inquiry has silence him. the inquiry has been probing into the circumstances that led the post office to wrongly prosecute more than 900 subpostmasters, all caused by errors in the horizon it software system. mr bates has

been giving his version of events ahead of appearances by senior executives from the post office, as well as fujitsu, the company which built the software. >> when horizon came in. i think i was quite positive about it because i knew what technology and these sorts of systems could do, so i was quite positive , but do, so i was quite positive, but i found it a bit frustrating once the system was installed and we were operating, i found there were many shortcomings in there were many shortcomings in the system and knowing what these systems could do , it just these systems could do, it just seemed a bit of a lost opportunity. >> alan bates , speaking at the >> alan bates, speaking at the post office inquiry today. now labour says it wants to crack down on tax avoiders in a bid to help fund the nhs. the shadow chancellor, rachel reeves, says she can raise over £5 billion a year and she says she's going to use it to tackle nhs waiting lists, as well as funding free school breakfast clubs. labour also says it's going to raise 2.5 billion over the next

parliament by closing loopholes in the government's plans to aboush in the government's plans to abolish for non—doms . abolish exemptions for non—doms. we've had a lot of rain recently, haven't we? well, they do say april showers, but more than 200 people have had to be evacuated from their homes in low lying areas of west sussex after a river burst its after a local river burst its banks. there the south east ambulance service helped with the rescue of around 180 people from a holiday park. west sussex county council said water levels haven't and they haven't yet receded and they warned as well the flooding may increase. those floods also affecting roads and rail services right across the south and into wales. and lastly, his majesty the king has been presented with the first banknotes featuring his image as he returned from a short easter break to view the new currency at buckingham palace today. king charles smiled we understand as he inspected the new notes which will circulation from will enter circulation from june. he's only the second british monarch to have his likeness on a banknote. the existing banknotes from the

reign of his mum, queen elizabeth ii, will continue to be used alongside the new king. charles . that's the news charles notes. that's the news for the latest stories. do sign up to gb news alerts. scan that qr code on the screen right now or go to gb news. com slash alerts. >> thanks very much for that, polly. i'm michelle dewberry and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. i've got alongside me my panel, the director of the popular conservatives, mark littlewood and the broadcaster and journalist ella whelan. good evening to both of you. you're very welcome tonight. also, you know the drill , don't very welcome tonight. also, you know the drill, don't you? it's not just about us three here. it's very much about you guys at home as well. what's on your mind tonight? you know how you can get touch with me by now? can get in touch with me by now? you can gbviews@gbnews.uk . you can email gbviews@gbnews.uk. com our brand new com or we've got our brand new way, haven't this is the way, haven't we? this is the talk the town. everybody. you talk of the town. everybody. you can interact with us directly. i'll chatting you well i'll be chatting to you as well in the so get on down if

in the break, so get on down if you haven't already to our website your website gbnews.com slash your sir. indeed . how you sir. that is indeed. how you have your say. i'll be reading as many of those out as i possibly can. and of course we are still on twitter aukus @gbnews. but of course, the main story in town tonight. you all know now it's massive night know by now it's a massive night tonight, course for football tonight, of course for football and has been a terror and there has been a terror threat made against one the threat made against one of the biggest matches that's happening . the met police has spoken out, saying it has a robust policing plan. speaking plan. of course i'm speaking about league match about the champions league match here london, there's also here in london, there's also another game taking in another game taking place in spain. all apparently spain. this is all apparently off of a terror threat off the back of a terror threat from islamic state. now i can cross live to our reporter , cross live to our reporter, charlie peters. he's there on the ground outside the emirates. charlie, good evening to you. bnng charlie, good evening to you. bring us up speed. if you will. >> so the terror threat across britain is substantial, and that threat has remained in place after an isis aligned media

outlet has made a series of threats against the football matches occurring tonight and tomorrow in the champions league. this is arsenal's first quarter final in the competition since 2010, but the main story here isn't necessarily the football but that security threat, the met said this afternoon that in collaboration with counter—terrorism police, they have a robust plan in they did have a robust plan in place to reassure the public. but at the same time they have asked fans here to be vigilant and report anything that they see that is suspicious. speaking to cops here, they've all said that this is the standard police presence for a fixture of this profile. nothing additional or special has been put on in light of that threat, and i also spoke to some fans at the ground earlier as they gathered for this match, who said that they did not fear the isis threat. i'm looking to the match. >> slightly nervous, i guess, but you can't let these people

ruin your lives. so, you know, it's a big quarterfinal. we're not having a quarterfinal with arsenal since 2010, so you know you can't not go as a result. >> so yeah, because i don't i sinner , you know, i, i saw a lot sinner, you know, i, i saw a lot of news about isis about to terrorism and lots of them, nearly 90% of them are fake. so, you know, london is a great city. i trust in the, officers, the safety, safety guys . so. the safety, safety guys. so. >> yeah, grand, you know, i've come over from ireland today, and i used to live here, and we had threats growing up. and you just have to get on with life and just. you can walk down the street and anything can happen to you. so you just have to keep going and hope for the best. >> well, those fans are undeterred threats, undeterred by the threats, reportedly aligned reportedly from an isis aligned media this is, as media outlets. this is, as they've said, arsenal's first quarter competition quarter final in the competition since 2010. and they're hoping that it's football that takes

the tonight. the headlines tonight. >> charlie pizzas, thank you very much for that. mark. you are a football fan by your own description there, let me ask you, first of all, do you think and i mean, just in case you're not fully up to speed with the threat, who's making it and all the rest of it worry not, because after the break, i'll be going as well to mark. why going also as well to mark. why our hermann securities editor, he going into a lot more he will be going into a lot more detail about who's been making what and it means what threats and what it means more as well, beyond more broadly as well, beyond just but for let me just the uk. but for now, let me just the uk. but for now, let me just stick with these uk matches, actually matches, do you think actually these have gone these matches should have gone ahead these matches should have gone aheyes, on the face of it. >> yes, i do, on the face of it. i mean, a judgement has to be made. of course, everybody's reporting that our terror threat level is substantial. all. but i just been just looked up. it's been substantial severe every day substantial or severe every day since march the since march 2019. if the authorities thought that there was, an unstoppable clear and present my present danger here, my assumption they would assumption is that they would have the game. i hope, have cancelled the game. i hope, however, that the security is rather better than it was at a

match that i went to three years ago, the italy versus england euro final at wembley. the security was a shambles . security was a shambles. thousands of people got into the stadium without tickets, so i'm rather hoping that the emirates security now in 2024 is enormously better than the wembley stadium. security in 2021, because it's damn difficult to check what 50 60,000 bags and jackets and all the rest of it. but i would still go. i rather admire the keep calm and carry on attitude of those arsenal fans, but i guess they're self—selecting, right ? you wouldn't have found right? you wouldn't have found anybody at the emirates who said, i've decided not go said, no, i've decided not to go after all, at home on their sofa. >> that's a very good point, actually, or maybe you might have been, if you went to some of where that's where of the pubs where that's where you'd found me, quite frankly, of the pubs where that's where you'd �*run d me, quite frankly, of the pubs where that's where you'd �*run up1e, quite frankly, of the pubs where that's where you'd �*run up to quite frankly, of the pubs where that's where you'd �*run up to the te frankly, of the pubs where that's where you'd �*run up to the match, ly, in the run up to the match, i must confess. but, i wonder if those people in there that were perhaps go to the perhaps going to go to the stadium decided to stay in stadium but decided to stay in the you have gone to the pub. would you have gone to that match tonight if you had tickets of courses, matches as well? you be

well? tomorrow you might be getting flight and going getting on a flight and going over this over there. would this change your not? whelan your plans or not? ella whelan where you? where are you? >> i mean, lot of people will >> i mean, a lot of people will be going matches just be going to those matches just because love football and because they love football and won't to pay attention. but won't want to pay attention. but i actually it's in a way, i actually think it's in a way, a political act defiance a political act of defiance going an important one. i going quite an important one. i would because would go, would you? because there's mark said there's well, like mark said with i've not with the qualifier, i've not been no one wants to be silly or, you know, if the threat, if you trust the police, you know, you trust the police, know they're doing a know what they're doing to a certain extent. but you know, 80% of these kind of announcements or announcements from is or islamist are islamist related groups are about that they'll about the effect that they'll have, even have, rather than even the action. a of the time, they action. a lot of the time, they don't actually carry out an attack. that they attack. the hope is that they will cause enough terror, enough fear disruption change fear and disruption to change the our lives. the way we live our lives. because let's remember the reason they're threatening reason why they're threatening us western civilisation us as western civilisation is because they think it's awful that we live freely, go to football matches, have fun that teenagers up an ariana teenagers turn up at an ariana grande concert and dance with jov- grande concert and dance with joy. they think all of that is awful and they want to put a stop to that. so part the stop to that. so part of the tactic is to try to stop us from

doing it. and i think we have to be as much as possible really defiant against that and say, no, you will change the way no, you will not change the way we again , qualified by no we live again, qualified by no one wants to be a martyr, certainly, and not want to put people's lives in danger. but i think it's quite an important political say i will not political act to say i will not be cowed this kind of terror. be cowed by this kind of terror. i know what i would think, i don't know what i would think, i don't know what i would think, i mean, i know you've got a little one, probably too little to take to football match, to take to a football match, perhaps, but perhaps, at this stage. but then i think, wonder if you've i think, i wonder if you've taken kids because football is actually quite a family support sport, go with sport, isn't it? you go with your you take your your families, you take your kids and you it's all kids along and you know it's all good and all the rest of it. good fun and all the rest of it. and i think, would you take your kids along to somewhere that's apparently been threatened? >> like mark says, >> well, i think like mark says, there been mean, the sort there has been i mean, the sort of about extremism of discussion about extremism and levels are i'm and terror threat levels are i'm not saying they're irrelevant, but it has been broadened . maybe but it has been broadened. maybe we get on to talk about this. it has the definition of what you know, qualifies a know, what qualifies raising a terror, what terror, threat and what qualifies extremists has been qualifies as extremists has been

broadened out to a point in which i'm not i'm not so nervous when people use that kind of language because it doesn't a lot the it doesn't mean lot of the time, it doesn't mean that, for example , someone who that, for example, someone who might want to commit act of might want to commit an act of violence, suicide bomb, or stabbing the rest of it is immediately be immediately present. it might be something so i think something else. and so i think it's not quite that i'm saying the government been crying the government has been crying wolf long there wolf for a long time, but there is an of a sort of an is an element of a sort of an unserious approach to the issue of islamism and terrorism that i think make me think probably would make me feel a little bit safer in a way which, you know, has its own problems, because we should have a system which treats it very seriously. it's a very high threshold and which is very clear citizens when the clear to citizens when the police government says the police or government says the terror is high, terror threat is high, you should avoid this and should avoid this area and people will obey in a way people will then obey in a way that everyone safe. but i that keeps everyone safe. but i think at moment it's so think at the moment it's so muddy, it's to when muddy, it's hard to know when what should take seriously what you should take seriously and shouldn't. and what you shouldn't. >> mark. that's exactly right. i mean, to get inured to mean, you start to get inured to these things, don't you? if you are told day that the are told every day that the

terror threat is substantial or severe, every for or severe, every day for 4 or 5 years, i mean , unless you're years, i mean, unless you're going to just lock yourself in your own home, what are you supposed to do? and i often find the guidance that you get is not particularly you know, particularly helpful. you know, we're be alert we're often told to be alert but not alarmed. mean, i'm not not alarmed. i mean, i'm not entirely sure what that means. i'd to think i'm always i'd like to think i'm always alert, but not alarmed. i'm not sure we should change our sure how we should change our behaviour, really. and i completely with that. if completely agree with that. if you're going to say it's a substantial or severe every day , substantial or severe every day, at some point people stop listening. >> we also, i mean, remember that in, you know, 2017, that in, you know, in 2017, 2018, 2019, were attacks 2018, 2019, there were attacks by islamists london bridge by islamists on london bridge and on westminster bridge, people driving cars into people, people driving cars into people, people on the street being stabbed. and that's again, that's not to say we should stay at home and become, you know, hermits, because it could happen everywhere here. but it's, you know, it's a bit like what the woman the of charlie, one woman at the end of charlie, one of the fans at the end of charlie's, report said, what am of the fans at the end of cgoing s, report said, what am of the fans at the end of cgoing to report said, what am of the fans at the end of cgoing to do, rt said, what am of the fans at the end of cgoing to do, justild, what am of the fans at the end of cgoing to do, just notrvhat am of the fans at the end of cgoing to do, just not live am of the fans at the end of cgoing to do, just not live my i going to do, just not live my life? well, you know, you have

to have some sense of proportion and there is problem. and say there is a problem. islamism issue that islamism is an issue that i really politicians would really wish politicians would talk about more openly and take more seriously. but it is not something that think should something that i think should change that we as free change the way that we as free citizens, relatively free citizens, relatively free citizens the west, should citizens in the west, should live lives. live our lives. >> i mean, my guess would be this know we're about to hear this i know we're about to hear from gb news security expert michel, guess be michel, but my guess would be this. only guess. i'm this. it's only my guess. i'm not here. that if not an expert here. that if you're announcing in advance that these stadiums are these stadia targets, that's stadia are targets, that's likely you're trying likely that you're trying to actually cause disruption to the matches and get them cancelled. presumably if you if you really were thinking of targeting the emirates stadium tonight, you wouldn't announce tv wouldn't announce it on a tv channel several hours beforehand. that's my beforehand. i mean, that's my best you would you would best guess. you would you would not want authorities to get not want the authorities to get forewarning. my view is forewarning. so my view is they're trying to be disruptive in this incident in this particular instance, and we should refuse to be disrupted by them. >> i think that's a very good point, actually. and i will be going to mark why after the break. but there's lots i want

to pick with you guys tonight. so i want to pick up on this whole notion. do you remember we read it. well, i say we the government redefined, didn't they? of they? the definition of extremism. think they got extremism. do you think they got that course that right? because of course they much criticism they faced so much criticism when did that. perhaps in when they did that. perhaps in your mind might think they your mind you might think they were enough. to were not harsh enough. i want to pick as well. on the terror pick up as well. on the terror threat level. i'll speaking threat level. i'll be speaking to an expert on that when it comes to counter, defence, you know, just they know, do people just are they serious terrorism if they serious about terrorism if they go off? and one is that when you should be alert, what does trigger those kind of changes to our threat levels in this country? but keep your thoughts coming the usual ways, coming in all the usual ways, and i'll join you back into with mark who will bring us up mark white, who will bring us up to speed with exactly what it is, been threatened by whom is, has been threatened by whom and to what? i'll see you

hello there. i'm michelle

dewberry, and i'm with you till 7:00 tonight. welcome back alongside me. my panel. the director of the popular conservatives, mark littlewood and the broadcaster and journalist ella whelan. we're just about this just talking about this potential terror threat that's been made for the football matches taking place tonight, daniel says michelle, i would have loved to have gone to the football match tonight, but i can't because my team are chelsea and they're rubbish. and they even make the grid. they didn't even make the grid. hey, daniel, peter says michelle is simple. keep calm and carry on playing football. of course there's should indeed there's matches should indeed have gone ahead. darren one of the viewers says, michelle, you can't cancel these football matches tonight because you're giving in and then the next threat will be for everything, whether it's wimbledon, the chelsea whatever. chelsea flower show or whatever. whatever you cancel whatever he says, if you cancel everything whenever a threat is made, terrorists will win made, the terrorists will win from their armchairs and shins as i will not be held hostage in my hometown because this country has allowed extremism extremists into our once beautiful land, he

says. there's lots i want to unpick about this story tonight. i want to look at that new definition of as well when it comes to extremism and what that actually means . comes to extremism and what that actually means. i comes to extremism and what that actually means . i want to look actually means. i want to look at the terror threat in this country. should it be changed, when is it changed and what would that look like? but for now , i want bring everyone up now, i want to bring everyone up to speed. because if you're just tuning wondering tuning in, you're wondering what on actually even on earth is actually even going on, threats been made on, what threats have been made and by whom, and what are the ramifications. well, let me cross home cross now. live to our home and security mark white. security editor mark white. mark, good evening. can you help everyone understand what has been going on, who has been making these threats? and what, of course, it that they're of course, is it that they're actually threatening ? actually threatening? >> is isis, or at >> well, this is isis, or at least the al—azim foundation, which is a mouthpiece that acts on behalf of isis, isil, islamic state, daesh. if you want to be more insulting and its various offshoots and what isis really has been able to do that no

other terror organisation has really been able to quite equal, i think, is to master the propaganda war. and i think some of that was a matter of timing when al—qaeda was in its heyday, we didn't quite have the proliferation of digital means. social media and alike. when isis came to power, it did have that in it absolutely used all those tools and continues to do that because although isis was a huge issue for everyone and we were dealing with it, we were seeing terrorist attacks across europe for a number of years from about 2015 to 2018, 2019, in particular. then we got the coalition forces going in, degrading isis, taking them out of the picture to a large degree in syria and iraq, but of the picture to a large degree in syria and iraq , but although in syria and iraq, but although they were degraded, what they

never lost was their ability to continue pumping out their propaganda. and they do that and i think what isis does in putting out a message like it has, saying it wants to target these football matches, is it might not be talking about an operation that it is specifically directing . it may specifically directing. it may be more, in the way of encouraging ageing extremists, to go and launch attacks, low sophisticated attacks, knife attacks , car attacks, whatever attacks, car attacks, whatever they might be. it has a high success rate in doing that and encouraging others to go off and carry out these attacks in its name . name. >> and some people are saying, is this some people are asking actually, should i say, is this actually, should i say, is this a similar group that were connected, apparently, with the attacks recently attacks that we just recently saw moscow? saw in moscow? >> well, this is the thing about isis and its offshoots and, you

know, the kind of like franchise movies these days, really, so the group you're talking about is isis k or isis khorasan , is isis k or isis khorasan, which really is a group that took its name from the khorasan region of afghanistan. and other parts of central asia. it's a regional terror group, but it has wider aspirations as it's the group behind. remember this terrible, deadly attack in 2021 that targeted the airport in kabul during the evacuation of afghanistan killed almost 200 people, including 13 us service personnel and more recently , personnel and more recently, it's claimed responsibility for the attack on the theatre in the shopping centre in moscow, killing more than 140 people. so there's no doubt it is a great dangerin there's no doubt it is a great danger in terms of the threat that it poses, not just to its immediate region, but it has

more globalist, sort of aspirations . and not just it, aspirations. and not just it, but other isis franchises , but other isis franchises, throughout the world, be they in the philippines or indonesia or indeed still in that area around syria and iraq. >> i mean, how do people how do these kind of groups even get away with broadcasting call direct calls for violence? why aren't these channels or whatever shut down instantly ? whatever shut down instantly? >> well, a lot of them are . and >> well, a lot of them are. and basically they pop up on the internet . sometimes they're on internet. sometimes they're on the dark web, and often they will go public, they will put these posts out on various sites that pop up the message is disseminated, then they get shut down. but the fact is, they're in lawless regions of the world. you know, they're in syria or iraq or afghanistan , and they're iraq or afghanistan, and they're pumping out these messages from their bunkers. and it's very difficult, actually , to do much

difficult, actually, to do much about it than try to shut them down. and as i say, propaganda is a huge tool that they have because there are many people in this country and other countries around the world who have been radicalised , particularly during radicalised, particularly during lockdown, that have been susceptible to the messages that have been pumped out by these groups . and they're willing to groups. and they're willing to be triggered. and you've got conflicts like the conflict in the middle east at the moment with the war in gaza, which is proving to be a trigger point. we've seen a number of terrorist attacks that have place in attacks that have taken place in several countries that have been unked several countries that have been linked and attributed back to gaza, so that's another potential issue in flashpoint there. and all of the while, the security services, the police have to try to be alive to this and really assess what's a real threat, what's, you know, more in the way of propaganda that probably won't , really amount to probably won't, really amount to much. and all of the while they can't really afford not to take

it seriously . it seriously. >> fascinating and concerning stuff. mark white, thank you very much for your insight there. see, when we're talking about people being radicalised and all the rest of it, you'll all be familiar, of course, with the recently updated definition of . i'll just pop it of extremism. i'll just pop it onto the screen in case you're not perhaps across it, but essentially it was a new definition. it was, i think it was a couple of weeks ago now. they came up with it. it was basically saying extremism is the promotion or advancement of an ideology based on violence, hatred or intolerance. and it was , people trying was talking about, people trying to destroy the fundamental rights and freedoms others rights and freedoms of others and and so forth . now, and so on and so forth. now, even that definition of extremism, l.a. it divided opinions. some people saying it was too , tight, other people was too, tight, other people saying it wasn't tight enough . saying it wasn't tight enough. where was you on that? >> i thought it was a broadening , that meant that there wasn't very much meaning to it at all. so if you look at what it says, you know, that extremism you

counted as extremist if you, for example, wanted to overturn or replace the uk's parliamentary democracy ? i know lots of very democracy? i know lots of very mild mannered , middle class mild mannered, middle class greens who want to do that. you know, there's a there's a kind of, there's a sort of a flabbiness to that statement, which doesn't really mean anything, and but i think, most crucially, we know that there are, you know, there are various types of terrorist acts. there have a handful of far right have been a handful of far right terrorist attacks which should, you know, were serious and tragic and should be taken seriously. but, you know, if you want to at what the real want to look at what the real terrorist threat is today, it's islamism. sheer number of islamism. the sheer number of attacks, the ferocity, the ferocity of those attacks in the last ten, 15 years reveals that this is this. when we talk about terrorism, this is what we should be talking about. we should be talking about. we should also, you know, be talking about it more broadly, links to what's going on at the moment israel gaza, moment with israel and gaza, with houthis, with with hamas, the houthis, with hezbollah. a problem, hezbollah. there is a problem, an international problem of

islamist terror, which affects us domestically but is also affecting people around the world. and so, you know , rather world. and so, you know, rather than sort of doing this kind of flabby about flabby discussion about extremism talk extremism, let's let's talk about what the real about what what is the real issue here, which is islamist terrorism. i mean, for example , terrorism. i mean, for example, you know, under the uk law, the pkk , the kurds are considered to pkk, the kurds are considered to be extremist terrorists and pkk has killed more isis members than anyone ever. so there's a kind of there's a misunderstanding about what what these labels actually mean. and instead, i think we should just cut to the chase and say , what cut to the chase and say, what is the problem here? the problem is the problem here? the problem is islamism. let's talk about how fix that. you're not how we fix that. you're not going fix it locking a going to fix it by locking up a few banning few few students, banning a few people speaking campus. people from speaking at campus. you've got to get much more targeted and much more serious about i agree with ella. but >> and i agree with ella. but then the challenge will be if then the challenge will be if the followed, ella's the government followed, ella's kind train there and kind of thought train there and said, right, okay, you know, we're going to be more brought more tight in our description. extremism, primary concern

extremism, the primary concern here is islamist and all the rest of it. within nanoseconds, i can hear it. people would be screaming islamophobia instantly, and it takes me back instantly, and it takes me back in my mind. the manchester arena attack, the ariana grande concert. one of the security guards there, mark, it came out in the inquest afterwards. that guy, the security guard, he saw some fella there with a massive backpack and all the rest of it. his instinct told him there's something not quite right here. and he said in his own words, he didn't dare approach the fella with because he with the backpack because he didn't to be accused of didn't want to be accused of being racist because he thought the a muslim. the guy was a muslim. >> it's maddening, isn't >> yeah, it's maddening, isn't it you almost say there's it? you could almost say there's a facie case there that a prima facie case there that his concerns about needing to act in a politically correct way cost lives . the political cost lives. the political correctness cost lives in those circumstances . i think, to circumstances. i think, to tackle this threat, though, it's those sort of actions on the ground we've got to get right. i mean, this, this definition of extremism is word salad, basically. and it is way too

wide. i mean, there's quite a lot of things i'm intolerant of and hate in the world. i don't know if that makes me an extremist. i don't want to negate or destroy the fundamental rights and freedoms of others, but there's quite a lot of legislation i want to repeal. i could be interpreted. i want to repeal the equalities act. i could be interpreted as undermining people's rights. and in my view, extremism per se is not the problem. i don't mind if you have extreme views. i mind if you act on those extreme views in a violent fashion. you might have the quirkiest, weirdest ultra left views, ultra right views. they are yours to hold. i'm really worried about it. if you start acting on them and harming other people, should you be able to voice them? yes, i think you should be able to voice yeah. voice them. yeah. >> you are, an extremist >> so if you are, an extremist that hates our way of life in the uk and the rest of it, the uk and all the rest of it, you should in your mind then be able to that hatred, able to voice that hatred, knowing that are perhaps knowing that you are perhaps radicalising whilst you yourself might not be violently acting,

you you are violently, you know that you are violently, potentially violently radicalising else to act radicalising someone else to act violently. >> well, are you really doing that? >> i mean, i'm not so sure that putting i mean, if that is the logic of the position, there's all sorts of speech that will have ban for fear that it have to ban for fear that it changes people's mind. to give you example, though, for you an example, though, for holocaust a holocaust denial is not a criminal offence in the united kingdom, david irving, the, you know, famous notorious holocaust denier, is able to publish books their nonsense. >> should it be that? >> should it be that? >> should it be, i don't think i believe that i want a free and open debate about the facts, and i think the best way of tackling extremism is that you actually have open debate about it. do have an open debate about it. do you remember all those years ago when then of the when the then leader of the british national nick british national party, nick griffin, on question griffin, was put on question time? that was the beginning of the him. once views the end for him. once his views were cross—examined, the end for him. once his views werewas cross—examined, the end for him. once his views werewas the cross—examined, the end for him. once his views werewas the collapse (amined, the end for him. once his views werewas the collapse ofnined, the end for him. once his views werewas the collapse of it.ed, the end for him. once his views werewas the collapse of it. it, that was the collapse of it. it didn't stack up and he was taken on, but as i say again, it's not extremism per se. that's the worry. and it's nearly impossible to define who's

extreme and who's just a bit far away from the centre ground. it's terrorism that's the problem. it's violence. that is the problem. i rather agree that, let's be honest, that the preponderance of that is associated with islamism, for sure. but it's the violent side of it that we need to tackle, not some weird, wacko, broad definition of who's extreme and who isn't. >> i'm interested in what you think to this at home, because there'll be lots of you that agree with this, and then there'll be the flip side of this. i don't know, perhaps you yourself may well be a muslim. and you hear people saying and when you hear people saying it's islamism, that's the problem. muslims know problem. many muslims i know will a made up will say islamism is a made up word. it's actually just a form of islamophobia. whipping up of islamophobia. is whipping up this hatred towards muslims more generally per se. what do you think about that? do you agree with that? do you disagree with that? i'd be interested to hear your thoughts in all the usual ways. the break, we're ways. after the break, we're going continue this going to continue this conversation. but i also want to speak to the former head of counter at the of counter terrorism at the city of

london take on it all london to get his take on it all as well. so i'll see you in two.

hi there. i'm michelle dewberry . hi there. i'm michelle dewberry. i'm with you till 7:00. alongside the director of the popular conservatives . the pop popular conservatives. the pop cons as they were known, wasn't it? pop con ? that's right. it? pop con? that's right. >> popcorn. yeah. >> popcorn. yeah. >> i lose track sometimes. of all these different groups, but p0p all these different groups, but pop con, i remember that one, actually, it launched, liz actually, when it launched, liz truss we was truss was a member. we was actually to try and talk actually going to try and talk about tonight because , about liz truss tonight because, was it the queen that said that she needed down or something? >> some leak from liz truss's upcoming book, which i have actually read in full, but it's under so she'll never under embargo. so she'll never speak to again if i reveal speak to me again if i reveal too much of it. the guardian too much of it. but the guardian has has got a little snippet on it the queen to it that the queen told her to pace herself, that liz truss pace herself, and that liz truss said i should have said maybe i should have listened to the queen. having known truss for the best known liz truss for the best part of 30 years, she never

places herself . there was no way places herself. there was no way she was going to listen to the queen. >> well, i can tell you now, there robust debate there was a robust debate waiting had because ella waiting to be had because ella whelan alongside as had whelan alongside me as well, had very views about liz very strong views about liz truss. whether or not she truss. but whether or not she should even be publishing some kind memoir at this kind of weird memoir at this stage the career, that fair? >> should it be more of a pamphlet? i don't know, i don't know you can really qualify know that you can really qualify for with that level of for a memoir with that level of political. she's political. i mean, she's obviously politician for obviously been a politician for a but after such a a long time, but after such a failed period, feels a little failed period, it feels a little bit gauche or something. mark sorry, of more sorry, but i sort of was more interested the interested that there's the tory party to be full of party seems to just be full of people a career track, you people on a career track, you know, get the job, get the book out, the after dinner out, get the after dinner speaking gigs. sort of speaking gigs. and it's sort of it a bit dirty. it feels a bit dirty. >> it's a very lucrative circuit. so i am told, let me know your thoughts on that. anyway, we're slightly that conversation anyway, we're slightly that conversati tonight of overtaken tonight because of course, familiar course, you've been familiar with the news. if you just tuned in, there's been a potential terror that's been made terror threat that's been made against football matches terror threat that's been made agai are football matches terror threat that's been made agai are takingtball matches terror threat that's been made agai are taking place natches terror threat that's been made agai are taking place tonight. that are taking place tonight. and of course, tomorrow i want

to to the former head to cross now to the former head of counter—terrorism at the city of counter—terrorism at the city of london police, kevin hurley. good evening to you, we've just been talking about the terror threat level in this country. of course it is, at the level substantial. is that the right level your view? level in your view? >> yes, because we live on a daily basis, with the threat from , islamic extremism, from, islamic extremism, islamism , if you like, and we islamism, if you like, and we can't go jumping about, at every single phone call, every single internet interception that comes in, the fact of the matter is, it would be quite wrong for us as a nation. the french , the as a nation. the french, the germans, spanish all involved in this to be intimidated by people who wish to impose their extreme views upon us. >> so what would what point then would it be changed to the next step ? step? >> well, if they actually knew individual people who were equipped with a device or

weapons and they knew they were actually on the point of executing their plan, of course, at that point we'd be looking at using specialist firearms teams or special forces to neutralise the threat . i mean, we live with the threat. i mean, we live with this every day , this is nothing this every day, this is nothing unusual. so a bunch of islamic state extremists have put some statements out on the internet that go and attack for top line football matches , frankly. so what? >> so keep calm and carry on. i guess, then, is your message that i'm hearing from you correct? >> but let's be let's be realistic about the threat that we do face. and watched your earlier debate from extremist, followers of salafist islam, violent jihadists . we should violent jihadists. we should realise that this is a real and present danger to all of us and our future way of life. >> interesting stuff there. that's kevin hurley there. thank you very much. the former head of counter—terrorism at the city of counter—terrorism at the city of london police. now, one of my

viewers, ibrahim, he's written in saying, i am a muslim, michel. and i've got to say, i find it extremely offensive when all of us muslims are painted with the same brush as the extremist. and i find that a very interesting , point, very interesting, point, because, of course, i speak to lots of muslims. and when i, when i do, many of them actually will say this notion of this word islamism, all the rest of it islamists, etc. some people feel that that is a made up time, if you like, when actually people are describing all muslims. as i can tell you now, the muslim council of britain , the muslim council of britain, they were not very comfortable at all with that definition of a extremism that we've just been discussing that change. they say the government's latest ill conceived proposals on extremism are undemocratic, divisive and potentially illegal. there was lots of conversation about potentially challenging the government there when it came to that new definition . let's that new definition. let's continue that conversation that we've just been having there. ella whelan about whether or not

it's, you know, too broad or needs to be tightened down or what. yeah. >> well, look, in response to the sort of islam muslims who believe in islam , you know, believe in islam, you know, religious in the same way that any, you know, christians , jews, any, you know, christians, jews, whatever, and islamism as a sort of violent political ideology. and it is offensive to conflate the two in the same way that it was it was a terrible injustice that all irish people got painted with the sort of terrorist label in the 80s and 90s. there is, you know, there is it's very clear that we can avoid and condemn prejudice in that but that shouldn't that way, but that shouldn't stop us from having a conversation about very conversation about the very real issue you know, issue of islamism, of, you know, not just a it's not a religious group. it's a group of people who believe, that our way of life should end its, you know, in, in gaza , it's sort of in, in gaza, it's sort of genocidal against jews. it's, you know, hamas believes that the western way of living in israel is so terrible and also that jews, the way jews live, are terrible, and they should want to kill all the jews. so

there's it's very clear the difference. and we i think we can be quite confident about making that difference. >> to put that back >> and i want to put that back out to ibrahim or any other muslims that are muslims actually, that are watching say watching this, because you say it's clear difference. it's very clear the difference. you're muslim if you are you're not a muslim if you are a muslim, is it very clear the difference to you? and is it a difference to you? and is it a difference that you accept or not, your on this. not, mark on your on this. >> yeah. >> yeah. >> i think we've got to call a spade a spade here. and just be honest about it. look unambiguously islamism or whatever to use. whatever terms you want to use. radical is a small, radical jihadism is a small, very muslims very small proportion of muslims in is in general, but it is nevertheless a proportion and a threat, is a bigger threat, and it is a bigger threat, and it is a bigger threat than us being worried about, oh, i don't know, radical buddhists or something, or radical hindus. there doesn't appear to any threat there. appear to be any threat there. or radical methodists. it's no threat posed. it's threat is posed. so it's important to always preface it, that we're not tarring everybody who believes in this religion with the same brush, but nevertheless, there seems to be a dangerous minority who purport to subscribe to this religion, who are a real threat and a

bigger threat than people who are subsets with radical views of other religions. so let's just be honest about that. that's the truth. >> when we talk about the threats, i've got a reasonably , threats, i've got a reasonably, long memory sometimes. >> remember it's not >> and i can remember it's not that long ago, actually , it was that long ago, actually, it was about and i remember there about 2015. and i remember there was warning that came, from was a warning that came, from some of the, kind of government sources over in libya. they were warning that isis was threatening to send what they called soldiers over to europe disguised as refugees. do you remember that? and i wonder, do you think we took those threats at the time seriously enough. we'll come back to that in two.

>> let's bring you a little bit of breaking news before handing you back to dewbs& co. we're heanng you back to dewbs& co. we're hearing from, the conservative office that william bragg will no longer sit as a conservative

mp after admitting giving politicians phone numbers to a suspected scammer. a spokesperson from the conservative whips office has told us this statement following will wragg's decision to step back from his roles on the pubuc back from his roles on the public accounts and 1922 committees. that was last night . committees. that was last night. he's also notified the chief whip that he is voluntarily relinquishing the conservative whip. so just to confirm that for you, william wragg will no longer sit as a conservative mp after admitting giving politicians phone numbers to a potential scammer last week , he potential scammer last week, he told the times newspaper he had been targeted, of course, by a suspected westminster honeytrap plot as it was called. we'll have more detail for you at 7:00. now back to michelle. >> thank you very much for that , >> thank you very much for that, polly. i mean, the state of british politics. it's an absolute it's just an embarrassing joke. luckily for me, i've got the perfect panel to discuss it. who better? the director of the pop cons, the

popular popular conservatives. mark littlewood, journalist and broadcaster. ella whelan your immediate reaction to that, mark? >> he should have had the whip stripped from him. i gather he's given it up voluntarily. i don't know if he was leant on, look, i have some human sympathy with him falling for this scam, but what he did by sharing the numbers of his colleagues. this is absolutely unconscionable. i assume also illegal, to do assume it's also illegal, to do this, so i think it was absurd that he retained the conservative whip for so long, and he apparently has now decided that he's not going to retain it. the whip should have been removed. i wonder what's going on in the tory whips office. he was allowed to retain the whip. lee anderson, who makes a few slightly off colour remarks a political remarks about a political opponent. sadiq khan gets the whip and then defects to whip removed and then defects to another would another party. i mean, i would have this sort have thought this sort of behaviour something which behaviour is something which is definitely unconscionable. behaviour is something which is defia tely unconscionable. behaviour is something which is defia lawyer, onscionable. behaviour is something which is defia lawyer, but:ionable. behaviour is something which is defia lawyer, but i)nable. behaviour is something which is defia lawyer, but i would assume not a lawyer, but i would assume his behaviour is illegal. the whip have been suspended his behaviour is illegal. the whijremoved 1ave been suspended his behaviour is illegal. the whijremoved immediately. pended and removed immediately. >> whelan yeah, i >> ella whelan yeah, i mean, i think that there's like mark

says, you know , as an mp going says, you know, as an mp going on dating apps, whatever, sharing nude pictures of yourself. pretty stupid to put it lightly, but you know, as someone mentioned today, there is we have laws around revenge porn. i mean, it could have been challenged this individual and said, well, you know, go ahead and publish it, but you can't do anything. i can take you to court. and he could have took the option and said court. and he could have took thewas option and said court. and he could have took thewas a option and said court. and he could have took thewas a coward ption and said court. and he could have took thewas a coward and] and said court. and he could have took thewas a coward and sold said court. and he could have took thewas a coward and sold outd court. and he could have took thewas a coward and sold out his he was a coward and sold out his colleagues. and it's a sort of rule in any political party, certainly the left, that on certainly on the left, that on pain of death, you do not release details of your release personal details of your comrades and your people you work so in that case, work with. and so in that case, mark right. it's totally mark is right. it's totally unforgivable. know, unforgivable. but, you know, there's a there's certain there's a there's a certain level of lack of level of sort of lack of self—discipline within the conservative party. i'm not saying labour's squeaky clean, but, know, like but, you know, this is like tractor porn. all the other kind of behaviour that's of degrading behaviour that's going on. >> and his >> chris bryant and his underpants burn into my eye. the labour party are no better. so it seems. what's what's the matter people? mark i'm matter with people? mark i'm looking at you. don't tell me

what's up. >> there's a point to be made about professionalism, isn't there? yes. i don't want to be mary whitehouse about this, but yeah, there is a point to be made there. >> but, i mean, look, i'm pretty open minded on what people want to up to in their own to get up to in their own bedroom. and you know, bedroom. right. and you know, that's i don't think that's kind of i don't think it's, don't it's it's, i don't think it's a disgrace for an mp to be on a dating app. i mean, that's absolutely fine. so i don't mind people's, you know, sexuality, sexual proclivities. fine. >> emma pattison >> i don't think emma pattison try message you at any try and message you at any point. no, complained on twitter. >> i've never been the victim of a honey trap sting. i feel, you know, obviously not a big know, i'm obviously not a big enough fish, but i i want enough fish, but i said i want to be one because i will show you exactly somebody you exactly how somebody should behave seems behave with regard to, it seems to how you should to me obvious how you should respond. know, this person respond. you know, this person was to mps and was unknown to the mps and journalists they contacted, journalists that they contacted, concocted story about, oh , concocted some story about, oh, i met you at a party when we were a bit drunk a few years ago. these people fell for it. absolute madness. so it's not to my mind what mps want to get up

to their private lives. to in their private lives. that's up them. it is the that's up to them. it is the sharing of your colleagues personal data. you were successfully blackmailed. that's just unforgivable. >> but why ? why doesn't rishi >> but why? why doesn't rishi sunak? this is what i cannot understand, right? rishi sunak and people think is weak. people think is a pushover. people think is a pushover. people think is, pretty poor. at his job, had an opportunity now, job, he had an opportunity now, right the second this broke, right? you you have stepped you know, if you've if you've sent pictures of your bits and bobs to people, whatever, to other people, whatever, it's up second you have up to you. the second you have then shared, you've got your colleagues phone a colleagues phone numbers as a matter of members of matter of trust members of parliament, you have passed parliament, and you have passed those to potential those on to a potential blackmailer out. don't blackmailer yet out. why don't you show strength, because you show that strength, because he's a coward. >> and i think there's been some weird and he sort of self—preserving in in the fact that i think rishi sunak is maybe understandably now just on a one way focus track to general election time. you've got everybody in the country almost saying the labour party is saying that the labour party is going win , so, you know, i going to win, so, you know, i think he's trying to self think he's just trying to self preserve all the time. and any

scandal going to damage that scandal is going to damage that project preservation . project of self preservation. ian. wants to get ian. he probably wants to get out this, know, losing out of this, you know, losing a general election. but again, on to other his career to some other part of his career on the dinner party circuit. but i think the, you know, the interesting about of interesting thing about all of this you've got i think it this is you've got i think it was jeremy hunt some other was jeremy hunt and some other members of the tory party coming out saying brave it was out and saying how brave it was jeremy hunt, and he called him courageous apologised, courageous when he apologised, which, which again, which, you know, which again, it's what do words it's like, what do these words actually it's actually mean? and i think it's the that i mean, viewers can the way that i mean, viewers can message in and tell us. but i think the way i think it comes across to people who aren't in the of weird world of the sort of weird world of westminster just to westminster out there is just to sort sort of sort of everybody's sort of lying. one's really telling lying. no one's really telling the truth. it's obe, it's grubby and of and, know, and and sort of and, you know, and cynical obviously it's cynical because obviously it's not courageous to sell out your friends. it's the opposite of that. >> and you sometimes wonder whether there's for one whether there's one rule for one and for the other. i mean, and one for the other. i mean, maybe rishi sunak didn't want to rock the boat, but will rag was a sunak loyalist. that might be the reason behind it.

>> they paul, one of the >> they go, paul, one of the viewers, the last viewers, says, well, the last tory off the lights tory mp switch off the lights before resign . on many before you resign. on many people he had to go. lots people saying he had to go. lots of people saying he should have had that whip removed from him, you know, what's any politicians that are watching this be better? you know what? just be better? you know what? just be better . we all deserve a much better. we all deserve a much better. we all deserve a much better standard of the calibre of some of the goings on in politics right now. and i apply that right across the spectrum, not just to any one individual, but now, that's all we've but for now, that's all we've got time for ella whelan. thank you time, mark you for your time, mark littlewood, for yours

>> good evening. in one hour's time at the emirates stadium , time at the emirates stadium, arsenal will play bayern munich. there is an isis terrorist threat over the game. we'll go live to the stadium to see what

is going on. rachel reeves sits down with gb news is chris hope and talks about her tax plans. let's look at the numbers. do they actually add up and david cameron goes to mar—a—lago go to pay homage to president trump. talk about eat humble pie. we'll discuss that at some length too. but before all of that, let's get the news with polly middlehurst . middlehurst. >> nigel, thank you and good evening to you. well, the breaking news this hour. in fact, within the last 20 minutes, we've heard the mp, william wragg, has voluntarily, we understand, given up the conservative whip after he admitted giving his colleague's phone numbers to a suspected scammer. and that is coming from a spokesperson at the tory whips office in central london. office here in central london. well, last night we know he resigned from his position on two other parliamentary committee positions. mr wragg has claimed he was manipulated into sharing other politicians