gb news. >> they're doing it again. this time it's the olympic flag. >> they're doing it again. this time it's the olympic flag. the union jack, now almost unrecognised . or is it.7 we'll unrecognised. or is it.7 we'll debate. should our flag. should our symbols ever be changed? pictures have emerged in the last hour of one of the britons killed in the israeli air strike yesterday . on top of that, the yesterday. on top of that, the israeli ambassador summoned to the foreign office this afternoon and the national health service . well, it's time health service. well, it's time we actually debated perhaps having a different funding model because the current just because the current one just simply isn't working . but before simply isn't working. but before all those debates, let's get the news with polly middlehurst.

>> nigel, thank you and good evening to you. will the top story from the newsroom tonight is that lord cameron has told his israeli counterpart that major changes must be made to ensure the safety of aid workers in gaza. the israeli prime minister, benjamin netanyahu , minister, benjamin netanyahu, has described the killing of seven aid workers, including three british nationals, as tragic and unintended , and they tragic and unintended, and they were delivering vital food supplies, travelling into armoured cars marked clearly with the logo world central kitchen. the aid group claims the attack was carried out despite them coordinating their movements with the israeli military. the prime minister, rishi sunak, says the work of aid organisations must be protected . protected. >> they're doing fantastic work bringing alleviation to the suffering that many are experiencing in gaza. they should be praised and commended for what they're doing. they

need to be allowed to do that work unhindered, and it's incumbent make sure incumbent on israel to make sure that can do that. and we're that they can do that. and we're asking israel to investigate what happened urgently , because what happened urgently, because clearly that clearly there are questions that need answered . need to be answered. >> rishi now comments >> rishi sunak now comments about new hate crime about scotland's new hate crime law, posted to social media by the authorj.k. rowling, are not criminal. that's according to police scotland. this afternoon, the new law sought to ban hatred against people on certain grounds. but the harry potter author said it risked silencing genuine debate on issues around genden genuine debate on issues around gender, as well as ignoring the rights of women and girls. the prime minister backed those concerns, saying that people should not be criminalised for stating simple biology. should not be criminalised for stating simple biology . the stating simple biology. the sports brand adidas will redesign its german football shirts featuring the number 44, amid concerns over a resemblance to the nazi ss symbol. the new kits were launched last month ahead of germany hosting the european championship, but a historian flagged similarity to

the ss logo, which was nazi germany's elite military guard. under hitler, the country's football association says it didn't spot the similarities when the design was initially approved, but it will now be changed as the government faced criticism today of its new plan to expand funded childcare for working parents on the first week of being rolled out across england, meeting parents in hartlepool this morning, the prime minister rejected claims that nurseries can't cope with the increasing demand as a result of the new policy. rishi sunak said the package for support for families has been introduced in stages to give time for more places to be made available at nurseries . but the available at nurseries. but the leader of the lib democrats said davy says it shows the conservatives are out of touch. >> it's not just about registering, it's about whether the childcare is actually there and in community after community, people are finding that there aren't the nursery places, there aren't the child minders and parents are very disappointed. actually. they've

been promised help by the conservatives but childcare is in chaos under the conservatives and it needs dramatic reform . and it needs dramatic reform. >> so ed davey. that's the news for the latest stories. do sign up to gb news alerts. scan the qr code on your screen right now , or go to gb news .com/ alerts. >> good evening. well, i thought it was an absolutely knock out front page of the sun that went onune front page of the sun that went online last night and was on display all over the country today. union joke. and there is well , you can today. union joke. and there is well, you can just about make out that it's the union flag , out that it's the union flag, better known perhaps as the union jack. but they decided to add pink and all sorts of colours to it, and that is on sale, for fans going to the olympics in france this year to buy and to wear, which to led a great big panic. what on earth

would be on the shirts, shorts and kit of the athletes? well, a statement did come out mid morning from the british olympic association, which said all team gb athletes will wear the union jack as normal in paris. however, team gb kit itself is expected to include different shades of blue or red as in previous years. well, i'm sorry, i don't really buy that . we'll i don't really buy that. we'll have to see how the kit turns out. but of course this follows hard on the heels of a story we did just ten days ago, which was that for the european football championships coming up in germany in june, that the cross of saint george, which will appear back of players appear on the back of players shirts , is unrecognisable in shirts, is unrecognisable in terms of colours to the cross of saint george. so should folks our flag ever be changed? well peter shilton said, is nothing sacred anymore ? i have to say sacred anymore? i have to say i think this is really all quite deliberate, an attempt that goes right through much of civil

society, right through much of our education system . they want our education system. they want us to basically be ashamed of who we are as people. not proud. i am dead against it. give me your thoughts please, on this farage at gbnews.com. now, we sent adam cherry out to wembley today to ask some members of the pubuc today to ask some members of the public how they felt about this. >> this episode of companies fixing things that weren't broken. we're going to be asking the people of london what they think of the changing colours of the team gb olympic logo. take a look at this . look at this. >> the blue, the red and the white. it's perfect. i feel like , you know, it shouldn't be that controversial or controversial, but know, it's iconic. but you know, it's iconic. i feel like the colours are iconic. everyone's known london feel like the colours are ic0|being,eryone's known london feel like the colours are ic0|being, yome's known london feel like the colours are ic0|being, you know, own london feel like the colours are ic0|being, you know, red, london feel like the colours are ic0|being, you know, red, whiten for being, you know, red, white and blue. >> feel like it doesn't really >> i feel like it doesn't really represent england like that. the colours the colours are kind colours of the colours are kind of random. >> i think it's very colourful. it's very pinkish and quite unicorn ish kind of thing.

>> yeah, a bit too unicorn ish for team gb a little bit. do you think it was right to change the colour scheme from the original to whatever that is? >> i think it's just a bit more different really, and make all the other countries kind of look at us and be like, wow, it doesn't really matter as long as team gb do well at the olympics. >> disgusting. well, we're british colours are british and their colours are not what purple. and not pink and what purple. and like some patterns on there it's all going crazy. that's not our flag . that doesn't represent me well. >> joining me in the studio to discuss this is henry smith mp conservative member of parliament for crawley and chair of the flags and heraldry all party parliamentary group, and graham bartram , chief graham bartram, chief vexillologist. we're going to go into that in a bit more detail into that in a bit more detail in a moment from the flag institute. and lisa mason, british olympian gymnast henry, you know, this follows so quickly on from the football association. i mean , almost association. i mean, almost across saint george disappearing

from the england football kit. i mean, to be fair, we have had a clarifying statement, but still onune clarifying statement, but still online you can buy you know, supporting kit with that flag on. could this be a cynical attempt by marketing companies to get some publicity, or is it all a deliberate attempt to erode identity? >> but i think it's probably both. we see this constant erosion of british identity. how we're supposed to be made to feel ashamed of our heritage. quite the opposite, i would argue, should be the case. you know, people died for freedom under the union flag, the union jack and i think it should be respected. and i'm fed up with this sort of constant sort of erosion of respect for our national symbols. and i suspect that this is this is something deliberate . no. well, team gb deliberate. no. well, team gb are probably in a panic. deliberate. no. well, team gb are probably in a panic . just are probably in a panic. just pulled it back to say that the union jack will be properly displayed on kit.

>> the hue, the hue and cry did without a doubt, you know, make them respond and respond fairly quickly, which the which the fa incidentally have not done . and incidentally have not done. and i'd rather hope that gareth southgate, the england manager, would have spoken out. but given that he had us taking the knee after everybody else, maybe that was a of a vain hope. but was a bit of a vain hope. but graham, explain to me, vexillologist. >> it just means somebody who works with flags. simple as that, latin for flag is vexillum. >> perfect. so we've learned some latin half greek. only jacob rees—mogg here would have known that, his latin being far better mine, how is this better than mine, how is this allowed how i mean, allowed to happen? how i mean, these are important national symbols. i think they're important to supporters, i suspect. and i'm going to come to lisa in a moment. they're important to competitors as well. allowed to well. how is this allowed to happen? because i'm told that in other would other countries it would actually be illegal. >> yeah. well, in this country we really have any modern we don't really have any modern laws, at least in england, about flag flags, etc, there isn't

even a law that says that the national flag is the union flag. really there are clauses of treaties . if you read them treaties. if you read them carefully, you could interpret them to mean that. but they a simple the flag of the united kingdom is the union flag. nope. don't have that , we, we don't don't have that, we, we don't have what you might call a national symbols officer , a national symbols officer, a national symbols officer, a national symbols officer who could expect to be consulted about things like changing the flag for use at the olympics and basically sort of say no. >> and this could be a home office minister could have this added to their brief. it could. yes. he wouldn't need to spend any money on it, would you? >> it's not you. it's >> it's not it's not you. it's not. if you're going to require a department of 1000 people. no, you're adding you're talking about just adding it responsibility one it as a responsibility to one minister you the minister that you are the national symbols or one national symbols officer or one of underlings is the of your, underlings is the national symbols officer. and you are the government's person for dealing with this. >> and why do you think this is

happening? >> one of the problems is in some ways , we're such an old some ways, we're such an old country. we're we have a sort of confidence in government that we don't need to worry about these things because we are britain . things because we are britain. we are, you know, and it's only when stuff like this happens that you go, actually , maybe we that you go, actually, maybe we do need to worry about it. >> well, clearly after the last couple of weeks, we do. >> and i mean, before that, there was that period when, people like the national front basically grabbed the national flag. and made it theirs flag. yeah. and made it theirs and said, pretty well, nobody else can use it, but we've reclaimed that, haven't we? >> and we're well past all of that. we have we're well past all of that. >> and things like the euro 96, when england flag started when the england flag started being used yeah, we've being used again. yeah, we've got but it's, it's a, got past that. but it's, it's a, it's a constant battle and you need somebody to fight it. interesting. and it's no good lisa expecting it as a competitor. >> i mean this is quite important isn't it. the symbolism on your kit.

>> absolutely. what i was saying earlier on from my, you know, earlier on is from my, you know, knowledge of competing for great britain, especially with the olympic kit , there's alterations olympic kit, there's alterations of the constantly . i know of the flag constantly. i know it's happened throughout the football shirts. however, there is a little flag, which is always a little flag, which is always a little flag, which is your flag and it's either on the arm or it's down here somewhere. but that's always there. now we're waking up and seeing the news about the gb kit. for me, i thought that was just, you know, the design of the t shirt. i didn't realise it was something they were coming out to try and change. you imagine if this was america, what would happen in america if they decided their flag they decided pink in their flag instead red? there'd be an instead of red? there'd be an uproar. so are we the only uproar. so why are we the only country that's doing it? it's insane. >> pa p— insane. >> a competitor, how does >> and as a competitor, how does it feel to put that kit on? >> mean , for me, the whole the >> i mean, for me, the whole the big part and i think a lot of olympians can say this, one of the best part about being an olympian is when you go for kit day and you're there and you've got two huge suitcases full of,

you gb only you know, team gb only competitors, you to competitors, kit that you get to wear it's got the gb wear because it's got the gb flag on it. it makes you feel it means something. it absolutely when you win medals, when you when you win medals, the you feel for seeing the pride you feel for seeing your flag go up. imagine standing there and you're seeing pink or something else. >> or in the case of the football team, i have no idea what i don't even know what orange it is or something. yeah, and the fans must feel the same way too, surely? yeah. >> mean, i think, you know, >> i mean, i think, you know, with this wokeness and people trying know, make things trying to, you know, make things a little more, modern, a little bit more, modern, i guess, is the word to say of what? oh, i don't know, movement moving forward, not being stuck in the old ages. i don't know, i don't know, but i think there will be people that embrace and i think unless you are like a proper, how can i say it, somebody that is very patriotic or someone that's represented their country, i think you don't feel it as much . their country, i think you don't feel it as much. i their country, i think you don't feel it as much . i think, and feel it as much. i think, and i think it's easy for people where

it doesn't really, i don't want to say affect you because i don't mean it in that manner. but, you know, when something's important to you, you fight for it more. you know, it's same with anything that happens in the you fight it, the world if you fight for it, don't you? the world if you fight for it, dori:you? the world if you fight for it, dori think graham's point is >> i think graham's point is we've taken it for granted. yeah, think that's really the yeah, i think that's really the point you making earlier, point you were making earlier, henry. you've this henry. you know, you've got this all parliamentary group on all party parliamentary group on these think these things. and i think graham's having graham's point about having somebody an officer for somebody who was an officer for this it could, think, be a this and it could, i think, be a junior home office minister, has it to brief? it added to the brief? obviously, parliament's in recess. i really do recess. but i mean, i really do think you guys ought to be think that you guys ought to be standing up and doing something about this. >> no, i agree, and i >> well, no, i agree, and i think graham's idea is something we've past we've discussed in the past is very wouldn't very important as it wouldn't cost it would just fix cost any more. it would just fix a of responsibility in a point of responsibility in government that our government to make sure that our national symbols are protected. so many of our symbols , whether so many of our symbols, whether it be people climbing on statues or tugging at the union jack on the cenotaph during protests, disgracefully , so many of our

disgracefully, so many of our symbols are now under actual deliberate attack by those who are interested in pursuing the culture wars, trying to cancel what it is to be british, and all of the great things that we have done. and one of the things i reflect on is that actually, the union jack is a very trendy, popular symbol all around the world. you see the union jack everywhere. it's probably one of the most recognisable flags on taoiseach in new york. >> and i mean, there's nothing stuffy or or bad about it. it actually represents, i think, quite good, quite good values. i wonder, though, lisa, i do wonder, though, lisa, i do wonder about this point that a lot of younger people have had the country talked down to you know, by school teachers, by very left wing university professors, it's almost as if we're the only country that ever was involved with slavery. we've invented climate change. there is a lot of negativity, isn't there? pushed into young people? >> so, i think for a lot

>> i think so, i think for a lot of it where we are so aware of everything that's going in, in, in and out of the news nowadays, it's easy to create a narrative and, you know, interpretation is everything. and i think that a lot of the younger generation , lot of the younger generation, are led massively on their feelings . and unfortunately, feelings. and unfortunately, like i said, it's down to interpretation of what they take away from it. and there are a lot of bad things that has happenedin lot of bad things that has happened in our history as well as the rest of the world, many good things too. >> yeah, exactly. there's very good things as well. but i think especially over the whole covid time was really time where everyone was really homed in on what we'd done as a country. and, you know , protests country. and, you know, protests and everything that happened. i think it's made people go. yeah. it's not it's not great. and like you said earlier on there, there's very much like a cancel culture for you know, being british, if you will. >> well, we're going to try and fight for that. and national

symbols officer, that is clearly what we need. we cannot take our national symbols for granted. thank you, all of you. thank you for to this debate . for contributing to this debate. and does really matter and yeah, it does really matter now, the last hour or so, now, in the last hour or so, we've seen photographs and got the name of one of the three brits that were killed. aid workers that killed in gaza workers that were killed in gaza yesterday , it's leading to the yesterday, it's leading to the israeli ambassador being called in to the foreign office, we will speak to mark white, our home affairs editor. we will also speak to a spokesman from the israeli government. all of that

we'll shut our flag. ever be changed? some of your feedback, steve says this disgrace is just another reflection of the total desecration of our national pride . jackie says this is an pride. jackie says this is an attempt to go woke yet again. i just hope go woke go broke

proves correct. and nobody buys the shirts. and another says how dare they change our flag? no other country in the world would dare do that. and you know what? i think that is absolutely right . as lisa said a moment ago, imagine the american flag being changed. just think what the reaction would be now . it has reaction would be now. it has been a very dramatic, diplomatic afternoon following an airstrike that took place in gaza yesterday. seven aid workers killed three of them. we understand british and quite a strong diplomatic response this afternoon from our foreign office gb news home affairs and security editor mark white joins me down the line to give us a briefing . briefing. >> well, i think what the israeli government has said is that, you know, it's deeply apologetic for what has happened. they've described this as an unintended, missile

strike. they are deeply remorseful and clearly in a very difficult position because they have a very good relationship with this particular charity. the world central kitchen, who have been working in gaza for a number of months now, doing vital work there on the humanitarian front. this incident happened last night when a convoy of vehicles from the uk was leaving and heading down the coastal highway when it was struck by missiles , seven was struck by missiles, seven aid workers killed. we thought initially that there was one, british national caught up in this. but as the day progressed today, we got the confirmation that three british nationals have been killed in this incident, including. it's being widely reported. now james henderson, a former royal marine , someone who had only been working for the charity, out there in gaza. a number of weeks, someone described as

compassionate and, very professional, who would have been alive to all of the threats out there and who would, i have no doubt, been liaising with the israeli military. the charity says they were doing every day to try to ensure that they were in these de—conflicted areas and to try to reduce the possibility of a terrible incident like this unfolding. and one of the main reasons i think this will be particularly difficult and awkward for the israeli government is because of the relationship with this and other charities who the israelis have been encouraging to come in to help with the aid effort in gaza because because the relationship with the un agency has completely broken down. israel has accused unrwa of employing some 2000 members of hamas. for this organisation, also for employing people who were directly involved in those

atrocities on the 7th of october, israel would like to see the back of unrwa in gaza. but in the meantime , they've but in the meantime, they've been encouraging other groups like the wcrc to come in there and do what they can to help the people of gaza. so now it's involved, understandably , in involved, understandably, in urgent talks with these charities to try to come up with a more foolproof way of ensuring that there can be no repetition of the horrific events of last night. >> mark white, thank you very much indeed for that. and i'm joined down the line from israel by avi hyman, who's acting as a spokesman for the israeli government . avi, thank you for government. avi, thank you for joining me this evening. so your ambassador in london, tzipi hotovely, has been called in to meet foreign office minister andrew mitchell today. what i don't quite understand is how a

vehicle that was so clearly marked out was targeted, or was this just a horrible accident? >> nigel, thank you so much for having me on and thank you for highlighting the story , it was highlighting the story, it was it would appear, a terrible, terrible accident. this was an incredible organisation. you know, aid workers like these in conflicts like this are often the unsung heroes. they were going to give, food and aid to people that genuinely need it. at a time when we're fighting to get aid into gaza and not having it stolen by hamas, who were taking it into their underground compounds and hogging the food and aid. so our heart goes out to the families of the victims, and we're going to thoroughly investigate it. it's going to be a investigation and a transparent investigation and professional investigation, a transparent investigation and pro hope nal investigation, a transparent investigation and pro hope we investigation, a transparent investigation and pro hope we i1vestigation, a transparent investigation and pro hope we i mean, ation, a transparent investigation and pro hope we i mean, ultimately , we hope we i mean, ultimately, we hope we i mean, ultimately, we hope we i mean, ultimately, we hope that we'll find out that it actually wasn't us. and maybe there was some other explanation because it's terrible,

because it's such a terrible, situation. but ultimately, we will bottom of this will get to the bottom of this and ensure that it doesn't happen again, you have a situation in gaza where. yeah. >> no. okay and, you know, for your ambassador to be called in to the foreign office does reflect, i think you'll agree, a quite significant shift in position in terms of british foreign policy and indeed, american foreign policy since october the 7th. and i completely understand your position that if hamas is allowed to be unscathed after october the 7th, there was nothing to stop them simply doing it again, and perhaps even on a bigger scale. but the sheer number of civilian casualties are beginning to leave israel very , very isolated . very, very isolated. >> i'm not going to wade into british politics. you've made your name on that. i'll leave that to you. what i can say is

that, israel is up against a brutal, brutal enemy that is said that given the chance, they will do october 7th again. and again and again. we can't allow that to happen. so we need to plough on with mission to plough on with our mission to destroy to bring home the destroy hamas, to bring home the 134 hostages, and to ensure that , gaza doesn't become a threat to us again. now we believe that, our allies , be it great that, our allies, be it great britain, be it the united states, will stand shoulder to shoulder, not just because of what i've explained, but because it's an issue of values. it's an issue of the same enemy . the issue of the same enemy. the people that perpetrated october 7th are the same ideology that perpetrated the seventh of the seventh. first saw hamas seventh. we first saw hamas became on the world stage became famous on the world stage by blowing up, doing suicide bombings on buses, blowing up buses. we all remember the scenes of the blown up, double deckerin scenes of the blown up, double decker in london, to quote, the former chief rabbi of england , former chief rabbi of england, rabbi jonathan sacks, what starts with the jews rarely ends with the jews. so, we're we're

in the same battlefield. this is your war, and we need to win this war because our enemies all around are watching . around are watching. >> yes, but the point i'm making. and final point. but most important point is people are seeing and, you know, numbers are disputed. obviously, they always are in these situations. but people are seeing a very large civilian death toll. and that's the worry . and that is what is turning people, if not against israel , people, if not against israel, certainly to a more neutral position. >> so allow me to push back on that, because yes, that's definitely a narrative that's being pushed and it's a hamas narrative because the more people think that civilian casualties are skyrocketing , the casualties are skyrocketing, the more chance hamas has to stop the war because of international pressure and to stay in power. so that's hamas's strategy to increase, civilian casualties on both sides . now, what the idf is both sides. now, what the idf is doing in this has been said by, leading military experts in, british experts, leading american experts is the idf is

operating in a way to absolutely minimise civilian casualty in a way that no other army has done in the history of modern warfare. i believe in generations to come , they'll be generations to come, they'll be learning about the battles that we're currently fighting in sandhurst point, in sandhurst and in west point, in military schools , as the gold military schools, as the gold standard for urban warfare. i don't think there's ever been a scenario where a terrorist organisation has set themself up deep within a civilian population and underground under a civilian population, created a network of terror tunnels twice the size of the london underground, to, to attack us, this is unprecedented. and we're doing our very best and we're winning, and we will have total victory. >> well, thank you for making those points, because they're not being heard enough on british media. avi hyman, thank you very much indeed . okay. in you very much indeed. okay. in a moment, we're going to have a proper grown up debate about the national health service. yes once said, to be the nearest thing we had to a national

religion. but i think there are many of you now out there ready to think, are there different ways we could run it and fund

i did say on my first show on gb news 21st of july, 2021. that confidence in the national health service would fall. well, it's fallen off a cliff. it's down from 70% in 2010 to 24% today. and falling rapidly. having any alternative debate has been very, very difficult. i remember talking to nick robinson on the today programme ten years ago, asking whether our funding model actually worked, to and read the british press the next day. i mean, you would have thought that i was advocating that the poor just died in the gutters, but now we can actually begin to have that grown up debate. and i'm joined by james bartholomew , journalist by james bartholomew, journalist and author of the welfare state

we're in and, so it's confusing is also the welfare of nations . is also the welfare of nations. but but it is the welfare state we're in as well, which matters. this is james. >> this is the other one. this is the other one, that's the welfare state we're in. we've got both books here now, james, you have been looking at benefit systems. been looking at systems. you've been looking at pubuc systems. you've been looking at public funding for a very, very long you wrote really long time. you wrote a really interesting piece today in the telegraph talking about 1948, because we're all brought up to believe that before 1948, unless you were very rich, there was no health care provision in this country whatsoever. and indeed, in 2020, boris johnson was telling us that the national health service is the envy of the world. so what really happenedin the world. so what really happened in 1948? >> well, certainly isn't the envy of the world and hasn't been for a very, very long time, the, the health service before 1948 was extremely substantial. every single major hospital that

you know of and one has heard of was created prior to 1948, prior to the national health service. i've seen recent figures that there were 2600 hospitals then, and there are now less than half that number. the nhs has not created hospitals. it has closed them , saint george's in tooting, them, saint george's in tooting, for example, used to consist of ten hospitals. they've been merged to create one in. and in fact, you can see saint george's not far from here, the original one in hyde park corner. it's now a hotel, the guy's was created, you know, long ago, centuries ago. st bart's was created in the 12th century. so was saint thomas's , royal free was saint thomas's, royal free hospital was created in the 19th century. adam brooks of radcliffe, bristol infirmary . radcliffe, bristol infirmary. over and over again, all these major hospitals. >> how did people get health care then? >> well, there was this and this is what the labour party didn't like. there was a variety of

sources. basically in hospitals there were two different kinds . there were two different kinds. there was the voluntary hospitals, which is a phrase me really meaning a charitable hospital. then and which if hospital. and then and which if necessary, you could be treated for free. and there were consultants who gave their time for free. it's hard to imagine now. they gave their time for to for patients in those for free patients in those hospitals. there were also hospitals. and there were also municipal hospitals, ones that were run by authorities were run by local authorities that were the, as it were, the development of the original poorhouse in the, in the, in the 19th century. and they developed to become more and more hospitals because the poor houses were closed and the hospital of them remained, hospital part of them remained, and looked after on the and they looked after on the whole people who had needed long term remember at that time term care. remember at that time there lot of demand for there was a lot of demand for health care through because of tuberculosis was not tuberculosis was was had not been wiped out. so people were for weeks and weeks in hospitals. >> i mean, now we have a system where nhs england has a central budget of £168 billion this

yeah budget of £168 billion this year. we have, over the last few years put in more and more money, you know, gone from 7% of gdp to 10% of gdp. we've now got over 2 million staff in total, yet fewer and fewer of us are getting treated. what should we do in terms of structure? >> well, i mean, the i think we should have to move to a, a social insurance system. yeah, it's the one which is the most common system in the world. it's used across across europe. it's used across across europe. it's used also varieties of it in singapore and elsewhere. it's, it's not perfect . no system of it's not perfect. no system of health care is perfect. no. but the results of a typical european system are dramatically better. >> well, this is interesting. now melanie phillips joins me down the line from israel. and melanie you've been talking about this as well. it's as if the only options that we have open to us are our form of direct taxation. and all this

money going to nhs england or the american system, which is wildly expensive and james has just touched on this european social insurance, and it's almost like this has been a sort of a secret that we weren't allowed to debate in public. explain to the audience , please, explain to the audience, please, how this system actually works . how this system actually works. >> yes, it is very odd that it's not been discussed , but, not been discussed, but, basically the system, which takes different . forms in takes different. forms in different countries, but there are certain common features. and the main common is that the main common feature is that every individual will is required by law to pay, into, a health, a health insurance, provider , and that provider is provider, and that provider is usually in competition with other providers , as a result, other providers, as a result, the costs of , of funding the

the costs of, of funding the people who can't pay at all or can't pay very much are borne by people who can pay more. in other words, the costs are pooled and the advantage is there are certain disadvantages to it. i think that has supposed to it. i think that has supposed to have higher transaction costs and higher administrative costs than the, health service model , than the, health service model, that's what i read. but the advantages are that the standard of even basic care is very much higher than in the health service. you get seen much faster the quality of the care is much higher, the quality of the equipment is much higher because more money is going in. why is more money going in? because people actually are prepared to pay more in terms of the contribution they make . the contribution they make. because unlike paying your taxes of which part goes to the health service, but you don't know how much, this is very transparent.

you can see, what you are paying for and you can take your money away. and health care providers are, because they are sensitive to the patient , to the person to the patient, to the person who is buying their health insurance , there is an incentive insurance, there is an incentive to provide the services. guess what? people actually want what? the people actually want and need. and that's the crucial thing. it gives people. it gives patients and potential patients, leverage. it puts control in their hands . and the whole of their hands. and the whole of the, the whole standard, is raised immediately. >> this is privatisation. melanie people will throw their hands up in horror. >> no, it's not privatisation . >> no, it's not privatisation. an privatisation is what's been tried in various ways over the past few years to privatise bits of the health service and by privatisation. what i understand that to mean is that you farm it out to private, to independent private companies, who, who provide your, your services. this is not privatisation. this is more kind of, mutualisation that you pool, everyone's

contributions . and this provides contributions. and this provides two things which i think are crucial . people love the health crucial. people love the health service for various reasons. one reason they love it is because they very much believe that poor people should not be discriminated against, that everybody should have equal access the best health care. access to the best health care. and would agree with that, and and i would agree with that, and that's very important. but also the health service stands for a britain which people fear has gone or is going a britain in which people are compassionate to each other, put other people first, in which people share in a kind of sense of common shared endeavour and institutions in which you can share a sense of pride . now, i think all those pride. now, i think all those things are things that the health service . purports to health service. purports to embody, but is actually failing in it seems to me that social insurance schemes do provide those things. >> melanie phillips absolutely fascinating. thank for fascinating. thank you for joining quick thought,

joining me. last quick thought, james, we do hear the labour party talking about radical change to the national health service. they look like they may form the next government. do you believe it? >> i don't, and i and the >> no, i don't, and i and the reason i don't is because there's such a long history in there's such a long history in the nhs of politicians saying, if i do this, then it'll be better if i do. and this is how they get elected. i mean, going back all the way to the 1970s when said, when keith joseph said, management make management consultants will make it more logical more it more logical and more managerial. been every managerial. it's been every election. the opposition will always say, i've got something that's going to make it work. and it never does. >> james, thank you lots of reading me to a couple reading for me to do. a couple of quick if i can. of quick thoughts if i can. today in australia, a mass campaign to use atms to show people that cash still matters. i thoroughly approve of that, number 10 asked why boat crossings are up 43% now. say it's the weather. when they totally denied it was the weather was the numbers were

down at the end of last year. nothing working. then a final thought. cheryl jacobs, brexiteer and telegraph today said after she'd been to meet the fishermen at brixham, she wondered whether perhaps this country to country had an allergy to freedom and maybe should freedom and maybe we should rejoin european union. no, rejoin the european union. no, cheryl out. we just need cheryl, we're out. we just need a government that actually bloom and it. and i can and and believes it. and i can and i can tell you from personal experience that for the british fishing industry, particularly the smaller under ten metre inshore fleet , things are now inshore fleet, things are now far worse, far more bureaucratic than they were before brexit. and that is our fault. but it's for us to sort out in a moment. let's talk about the british museum with george osborne. there as an important chairman of it. it seems they want to give away virtually every treasure they've got. does that make any sense at

all? well, i don't know. ever since george osborne turned up at the british museum. and there he is. he's chairman of the museum's board of trustees . things have board of trustees. things have been stolen from the museum. objects stolen in their thousands and those got thousands and those they've got left. to want to give left. they seem to want to give away. whether it's to egypt or to ghana to greece. to ghana or to greece. i honestly don't is honestly don't know what is really going or whether it really going on or whether it makes any sense at all. i'm joined by roger, michael , joined by roger, michael, executive director the executive director of the institute digital institute for digital archaeology , and he joins me archaeology, and he joins me from the columbia school of journalism in new york. roger, you know, we've had this argument over the elgin marbles that. argument over the elgin marbles that . seems to go argument over the elgin marbles that. seems to go on argument over the elgin marbles that . seems to go on decade that. seems to go on decade after decade. but now, from what we hear, i mean, there are government after government that in negotiations with the british museum for artefacts to be museum for of artefacts to be handed and if we keep handed back. and if we keep giving away having giving things away or having them there really any

them stolen, is there really any point the british museum ? point in the british museum? >> well, nigel, you're not going to run out of artefacts anytime soon. there are millions and millions of objects that have never been displayed the never even been displayed at the british frankly, british museum. and frankly, it's question of giving it's not a question of giving these things away. you need to get rid of these things. these things are tying you down. this is the as as a as a as things are tying you down. this isthe asasa asa asaasan isthe asasaasaasaasan anti brexiteer. you must understand that this embrace of europe is represented by this, this this trophy house that's the british museum is not good for the british psyche. it's not good for the british people. it's not good for anybody. you go smithsonian, you see go into the smithsonian, you see marilyn monroe's dress, you see the of louis. you the spirit of saint louis. you see lunar module that took see the lunar module that took americans to moon. the americans to the moon. to the moon. it's place we are proud moon. it's a place we are proud to be, and it displays the triumphs of our culture. you need do just same. last need to do just the same. last year they did that horrible year when they did that horrible stonehenge exhibition at the british wanted british museum, all they wanted to it in a european to do was put it in a european context. i this is the context. i mean, this is the quintessential british artefact. even had to be even that had to be europeanised. mean, come on, europeanised. i mean, come on,

get rid of this stuff. move on. you've got a great culture. celebrate >> very interesting points you're making here. and because the other point you make, you know, if they really have got millions and millions of artefacts and they're display, they they're not on display, they might off. actually might be better off. actually you're making a point. they you're making a good point. they might better elsewhere you're making a good point. they might people er elsewhere you're making a good point. they might people can elsewhere you're making a good point. they might people can actually|ere you're making a good point. they might people can actually see where people can actually see them. >> f- f— f god's sake, it's >> well, for god's sake, it's time a spring cleaning over time for a spring cleaning over there. they literally have. they're able show 1% of 1% of they're able to show 1% of 1% of the objects. they've every the objects. they've got every closet, and is closet, every nook and cranny is stuffed stuff can't stuffed with stuff they can't even display . get some stuffed with stuff they can't even display. get some things out there fascinating, out there that are fascinating, that part of mr sloane's that are part of mr sloane's bequest british bequest to the british museum. he things in good he gave those things in good faith faith , god's faith for faith, for god's sakes, them people. sakes, show them to people. >> have lg marbles >> but have the lg marbles stayed greece? they probably >> but have the lg marbles stayed have 'eece? they probably >> but have the lg marbles stayed have been�* they probably >> but have the lg marbles stayed have been destroyed. ably >> but have the lg marbles stayed have been destroyed. soy would have been destroyed. so you could argue historically, that the british museum has done quite a good job as a custodian. >> oh gosh. come on, look at the acropolis museum. beautiful space exhibiting these space for exhibiting these things. lots of things that were that managed to survive that the turkish occupation, these these things have been a good

things would have been in a good nick as the things they've got in the acropolis museum today. the place that's in trouble is, of course, mr osborne's british museum. you go over there. they need the doors the of need to open the doors of the of the gallery to let air the duveen gallery to let air in, because it's so goddamn humid in the elgin, in the duveen days. duveen gallery these days. the water through the water is coming in through the ceiling. they've scrubbed ceiling. look, they've scrubbed these they've these things with acid. they've scrubbed brushes scrubbed them with metal brushes to british have to say that the british have been good stewards of these objects outrageous. really objects is outrageous. really >> well, what an absolutely fascinating point of view. rogen fascinating point of view. roger. michael, thank very roger. michael, thank you very much and jacob, i know much indeed. and jacob, i know this is something you feel quite strongly about . the british strongly about. the british museum, the artefacts he makes, the point. there are millions of objects in the british museum. so is that just a terrible waste? >> well, some of them are the most exciting objects we're talking about, aren't they? the rosetta stone is so important and interesting. of course we should keep it. it's fundamental to how we began to understand eqypt to how we began to understand egypt in, actually the success against napoleon. it was, of

course, his troops who found it first, and there is an issue that museums are magpie like. they want to get everything and they get bequests and they get bequests and they end up with too much. but we're talking here about some of the best things and some of the things we're talking about. we lose the historic context that there was very interesting discussion about. actually, it was the v&a sending back some royal regalia. turned out that royal regalia had been won by the british when fighting against the slave trade from a slave trading nation. we defeated them and we took the regalia. well, actually, isn't that a good thing to do when we were defeating the slave trade? so i think we should be more proud our history. of course proud of our history. of course we mistakes, but actually we made mistakes, but actually the the united the history of the united kingdom pretty impressive. kingdom is pretty impressive. >> idea millions of >> but this idea of millions of objects being in store cupboards, warehouses , that's cupboards, in warehouses, that's pretty isn't it? pretty pointless, isn't it? >> i agree, i museums >> oh, i agree, i think museums buy much and i'd rather buy too much and i'd rather things be in private ownership, but they sold but i'd rather than they sold them rather than just gave them to or have them

to people randomly or have them stolen, them stolen and stolen, or have them stolen and not elgin marbles, which are not the elgin marbles, which are absolutely key to the collection. and the rosetta stone. but yes, all those things stuffed away in drawers that they were given by great aunt , they were given by great aunt, and he 150 years ago, they probably to be owned by individuals who would enjoy them and display them better, or other provincial museums, or wherever may be. the other wherever it may be. the other provincial museums almost certainly too well. certainly have too much as well. i think is a problem. how i think this is a problem. how interesting. i prefer private ownership i think that ownership because i think that people who own something take better care it than better care of it than collectivisation. as a general rule, and you know, if something's pinched from your house, you notice, well , you house, you notice, well, you know, jacob, i have this feeling about medals. >> i collect military medals and people say, oh, no, no, no, they should all be in a museum. but if it's row after row after row of medals, perhaps the visitor gives them a fairly cursory glance. because if you've seen a couple of pieces, well, you don't need to see any more. and

i think when they're in private ownership, every time they go up for auction, the stories behind the that won these awards the men that won these awards and it comes up for and how they did it comes up for debate once again. so i think there a great argument in a there is a great argument in a market in these things. >> i completely agree with you. they are better remembered in that and the history that sense and the history around and you're around them. and if you're anything collect anything like me, i collect random curios then i bore my random curios and then i bore my guests with them by making them look at them and talking to them about stuff. about cell stuff. >> no no no no no no problem. magpies. well, i think i think we've exposed jacob jacob the magpie criticising the magpies at the british museum because i want to buy some of these things. well, for me it's a bit of an anniversary today because it was on the 2nd of april in 2014 when the bbc did a very big live debate on our membership of the european union . it was the the european union. it was the first time they'd done it for 40 years, and it was me up against the deputy prime minister, nick clegg, with david dimbleby in the chair. and i have to say

it's the 10th anniversary and it was a very, very special moment for me and i think perhaps did quite a lot of good to the whole campaign that led, in the end, to a referendum and a brexit. so i'm going out after this show to have a little drink to celebrate that tomorrow. i have a significant birthday. yeah, i'm going to be 60 years young tomorrow, which is something to celebrate because i've had a few ups and downs and a few medical issues and a few accidents over my life. so you will forgive me if i'm not with you tomorrow evening . tom harwood will be evening. tom harwood will be standing in for me. i will be back with you on on thursday though. that, jacob, though. but before that, jacob, what's coming up on the show? >> well, we're going to be talking about thames water and why i should just go bankrupt. that capitalism. >> capitalism? yes. free markets. >> yeah. they markets. >> yeah. look, they went in for sophisticated financial engineering. that didn't work. they their shareholders they paid their shareholders a lot they overgeared lot of money. they overgeared they're now bust. let them go bust. the assets are still there. water company can

there. the water company can carry on in a new way. with new owners. we can still get water, the capital invested is lower and therefore their prices could actually fall. so no bailout , no actually fall. so no bailout, no regulatory support, just free markets. >> i rather agree with that. i think it would work beautifully. now let's have a look for my birthday. what the april showers will be like tomorrow. >> looks like things are heating up. boxt boilers. sponsors of weather on gb news is . weather on gb news is. >> good evening. here's your latest gb news weather update brought to you by the met office. yes, there will be some dnen office. yes, there will be some drier, brighter weather around across southern parts tomorrow, but first, there's quite a bit of to come, driven by an of rain to come, driven by an area of low pressure and an associated frontal system that's sweeping up from the southwest, bringing rain for bringing outbreaks of rain for many, though initially tonight there will be some dry weather across parts of northern ireland and though the and northern england, though the outbreaks arriving here outbreaks of rain arriving here and eastern parts of and across eastern parts of

scotland, persistent rain scotland, some persistent rain could actually bring some hill snow the highest ground snow over the highest ground across the far north—west of scotland. there may be a touch of frost thing tomorrow of frost first thing tomorrow morning. wednesday morning. otherwise wednesday gets cloudy and gets off to a mild, cloudy and rather start for many rather damp start for many outbreaks of rain, which could turn heavy and persistent across parts of northern ireland and southern through the southern scotland. through the morning. will continue morning. they will continue across many northern areas into the afternoon , though, breaking the afternoon, though, breaking up a little bit across more central southern parts of central and southern parts of england and wales. turning dnen england and wales. turning drier. few showers, but also drier. a few showers, but also some decent bright sunny spells in which it should feel relatively with highs relatively warm with highs around 16 celsius but markedly colder than this further north. more weather to come more unsettled weather to come as through thursday. as we go through thursday. watch out outbreaks of out for some heavy outbreaks of rain sweeping their way from west east across southern west to east across southern parts england, with further parts of england, with further outbreaks of rain further north too, more persistent rain too, and more persistent rain pushing the southwest pushing in from the southwest later and the unsettled later on, and the unsettled theme continues as we head towards the weekend, could turn very windy, fact, by very windy, in fact, by saturday, but temperatures rising to get to 20 rising likely to get to 20

celsius by a brighter outlook celsius by by a brighter outlook with boxt solar spot hours of weather on

gb news. >> way . >> way. >> way. >> hello. good evening. it's me, jacob rees—mogg on state of the nafion jacob rees—mogg on state of the nation tonight. thames water is facing insolvency as it's been incompetently run for years . incompetently run for years. nonetheless, it wants you to foot the bill for its disastrous business mistakes and financial engineering. but the answer is simple. thames water must be allowed to fail. police scotland has clarified jk rowling will not be arrested on the snp's new authoritarian hate crime act. but tonight i'll be asking what would happen if i were to follow the law for england live on gb news. but when it was broadcast in scotland, could i be breaking the law? and could the labour party be facing new divisions?

on the question