taylor: one minute to go until 2:00 p.m. a quick check on your money, stocks are falling again after bank earnings and stronger than expected retail sales but you have the dow giving up earlier gains. if it again had been in the positive we would have snapped a five-day losing streak. you're seeing deterioration as we head into 2:00 p.m. i would note 10-year yields, pretty much yields across the board are rising. that is not giving us a classic safe haven trade. if stocks were selling off, you would buy bonds, yields would fall. yields are rising. retail sales and inflation data are showing us inflation is pretty sticky it is here to stay, we're not getting rate cuts. jackie: i think there is a geopolitical element here. the markets are taking it in stride, continuing to be measured waiting to hear what the responses will be. taylor: always measured is charles payne. he is up next with "making money," and it starts now. charles: i hope everyone had a

great weekend. good afternoon, everyone, i'm charles payne. this is "making money." breaking right now, stocks you heard trying to block out everything. you have global turmoil, rising bond yields, fading hopes from any rate cuts this year. so far the market exhibited a fair amount of moxie, but how far can it survive murphy's law without a significant break? danielle shay how to manuever a market saying it enters the two most weeks of the year. bond yields are spike being. in fact it hit a new 2024-year high. the 40 year bond market is dead. long live the bond bull market. what is next. after today's retail sales numbers but it is really a case of inflated prices rather than an uptick in demand? big cooling versus gold. brunell versus schiff. get ready for that and so much more on "making money".

♪. charles: the market's trying to survive murphy's law. you know murphy's law of the we all heard the saying but where does it come from. 1949 a, former air force pilot turned engineer, a superb engineer, ed murphy, jr. he became the r&d officer at write patterson air force space. he was working on rocket technology. he was working on a rocket that could propel a projectile 100 kilometers an hour. the day of the first experiment, the head of research, this guy here, john zap, they had a chimpanzee. i'm the guy in charge of this. i will put myself in the hot seat. the rocket ignited. the shred ripped down the track. when it came to the end everyone is racing down there. all of sudden they discover there is a system, 16 sensors, by the way they were developed by murphy. turns out the 16 sensors were plugged in upside down. none of the information from

this pivotal dangerous experiment was recorded. murphy in his ire, said, looked at one of his assistants, if that guy has any way of making a mistake, he will. and so we turned the last week with the stock market, right? essentially anything that could go wrong last week went wrong and you have to admit the market held up pretty well. inflation pangs, shakeky earnings, start to earnings season. geopolitical risk, not down too much, 2% off the all-time high. we began today, this is important hovering from a technical point of view, 200 day mo moving average. relative strength is beginning to rapidly deteriorate here. this is the sphere and greed chart. it is kind of corny but i do like it in some kind of ways. we're the tail end of neutral going into fear but what is really amazing about this, one week ago, one year ago we were

at greed, one week ago we were at greed. this might help explain things. u.s. large cap funds last week saw the largest out flows, largest outflows this goes back to december of 2022. i want to bring in ed yardeni. even today we're down but all things being equally we're holding up pretty good but i think there are some small cracks in the armor. what do you think? >> yeah i think the market is due for a pause. i'm not expecting a 10% correction but i'm not ruling that out. the market has to deal with a couple of challenges. the geopolitical situation is clearly deteriorated particularly in the middle east but also between ukraine and russia. the ukrainians are attacking russian petroleum facilities and quite successfully apparently. we have to continue to watch the price of oil because it is going to reflect just how out of coal

the geopolitical situation is in both wars. on top of that, i think, while there is uncertainty about geopolitics i think there is less uncertainty about what the fed is going to do. they might very well do knowing in terms of lowering interest rates and that's got the market jittery. if you can continue to get four, 4 1/2% on short-term instruments, that might continue to be the case for a while, people might just decide you know what? let's take some profits here and park them in the money market funds. >> right. ironically though a lot of people were saying it is time to get out of that. that trade is dying out. let's make some real money. last year the stock market had a pretty good return and i was reading in your note comments from joe fishback, the megacap 8. i thought it was interesting, last week the names the experts given up on, we've gone from the mag four, mag five, mag-7, we're

down right? ironally only names that were up last week, apple, google, amazon, even tesla. i wonder could there be a rotation even among those top 10 names? >> it's possible. i don't put too much emphasis on what happens one day or one week basis but i think there was, there has been a flight to quality and in the stock market. those are still viewed as quality companies that can dough well no matter what happens. charles: everyone was looking for confidence and i did see a note in your commentary that i saw over the weekend, insider buying or lack thereof. insider buying, right? this is where you can use the term crash this is the least amount of insider buying in a couple of decades. would this concern you or how much should it concern us? >> yeah. that's why i pointed it out. we've had way too much bullish know. bull-bear ratios have been too high. put/call ratio has been too low.

people are very calm about the situation. the insiders, what is going on in their companies, they're not snapping up stocks. they're not seeing tremendous value here and you are seeing some selling. >> retail sales out, bond yields are up. maybe no rate cuts to your point, i'm waiting for folks to start talking rate hikes. >> right. charles: so at this stage knowing that a certain percentage of this rally was built on rate cuts how can the market survive a new reality of no rate cuts? how can the rally rather survive? >> i think it is a bit of a tradeoff. the tradeoff the reason the rates are not coming down because the economy is doing so well. the atlanta fed gdp now tracking model i think went up from 2 1/2% for real gdp in the first quarter to 2.8%. that's a nice solid number. really what is the point of lowering interest rates if the economy is doing well and inflation right now may be stalling around 3 to 4% but i

still think it is heading lower. so i think we have to give up the notion the fed will lower interest rates. charles: right. >> i think it will be a earnings led market and we're right in the thick, early part, i should say not in the thick, but soon we'll be in the thick of earnings announcements. i think the earnings season will go off pretty well. that will be the one very important positive offsetting geopolitical negatives out there and the negative we'll not get the fed spoon feeding us rate cuts. charles: before i do have to hop but real quick, do you think that the 40 year bond bull market is over? >> i think it's been over for a while. you know, we had down to 0.5% back in 022. i don't think we're going to see that again. charles: right. >> i think we're just seeing bond yields back to normal. i think bond yields will be four to 5% for a while just the way they were before the great financial crisis. charles: all right. hey, ed, always great to start

the week off with you. you that very much. >> thank you. charles: all right, folks my next guest says inflation reacceleration could actually present opportunities. i'm going to bring in traderade cofounder, ayesha tariq. you've listed several reasons, inflation higher for longer, why we may be in this position. we've covered some of that but global uncertainty, check. i was surprised though. poor weather pat earnings, government spending to dissuade the election. that is here to stay, the manufacturing uptick all conspiring to keep inflation higher for longer so what does that mean for investtores? >> good afternoon, charles, thank you for having me back on the show. i think this presents a lot of opportunities for us. i know it is keeping rates higher for longer but at the same time there are sectors of the market that we could actually pick up some really great stocks in. energy is an obvious choice but we like select industrials, we like materials, we like mining

and these are companies where the eps had been taken down drastically and i think they're due for an upward correction. charles: i want to pick up on the question i just asked ed about bond yields, right? because you know, the secular years, not sort of year to year whatever, secular long-term trends move in 40 years. bond yields come down 40 years from 1980. they went up, spiked up, came down again for another 40 years. it feels like, if this is a new age, i know, listen, people have been around like ed yardeni it is no big deal but a lot of investors are not used to seeing 5% or more. what do you think that will do for the market at least for now? because you don't want people buying bonds, do you? >> i don't, not right now. because, i think bond yields are certainly, sorry, bonds are certainly tempting because they are a safe haven and they're a great income vehicle but at moment i don't think there is enough premium so investors are

not being rewarded for locking in their money for the longer term when you compare them to shorter-term yields right? the yield curve is still in inverse. we think prices might fall even further because inflation remains sticky and there may be more u.s. treasurys issuances. charles: right. >> everything considered i think we should wait a little while longer. >> i have 90 seconds, a little bit less, two things. first i'm putting up your track record because you've been coming on with us for six or seven months. it is absolutely remarkable. congratulations. look at the green. these are all the winners you shared with the audience. only two losers, one is only one one%. with that in mind let's look at names you like with a minute to go. schlumberger, we know that is oil. bvlt, i'm not familiar with that. tell us about this. >> they are a smaller, and they are trading below book and more

of a turnaround story this has done really well. we think they can become free cash flow positive. charles: wheaton, wheaton precious metals, is this pa gold play, a silver play. >> it's a precious metal play. they have gold, silver and copper. they're actually a streamer. so they don't have mines but they actually lend to mines and then sell from that. so basically they have upside potential because of you know, the precious metals rallying. >> and of course same thing with freeport-mcmoran obviously copper and gold mine play this copper rally, you feel really strongly about it. >> yes, there is an undersupply of copper and we definitely need more. with manufacturing picking up, we think the demand will pick up here drastically. charles: aisha, thank you, that is one hell of a track record,

thanks. >> thank you. charles: we're being told we're entering the two most risky weeks for the stock marquette. that is according to my next guest. but in certain areas she remains bullish and it will surprise you. you want to get out a pen and pad. danielle shay here to share some of her top portfolio ideas next. ♪. (vo) what does it mean to be rich? maybe rich is less about reaching a magic number... and more about discovering magic. rich is being able to keep your loved ones close. and also send them away. rich is living life your way. and having someone who can help you get there. the key to being rich is knowing what counts.

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we could all unsubscribe and switch to xfinity. their connection is unreal. and we could all un-experience this whole session. okay, that's uncalled for. charles: so my next guest says we're entering the two most risky weeks for the stock market as tech earnings kick off, taiwan semi, netflix up to bat. we have vp of operations danielle shay. first of all you're bullish on both of these going into earnings. i want to break them down. what i love off the bat, another big gap open here, another big gap open here, another big gap open there. full disclosure i asked my subscribers to take profits. i blinked. so why are you not blinking? >> momentum is good and investors like what the company is saying about earnings.

that is stone's throw of a all-time high. that could act as a magnet. that is why i'm sticking with netflix. charles: taiwan semiconductor, i didn't mark them all up, one breakaway gap mere, another breakaway gap here, danielle's point i get the break away gaps they trend higher. to your point, next knew ohio and new highs begat new hice? >> that is atly right charles. there were a lot of issues with china and taiwan. so taiwan semi was not really rallying but we have seen with earnings the past two quarters they have been really well. pulled back into 140. i think you can trade this up into 160. charles: full disclosure, subscribers are still long taiwan semi. we've been long a couple years. you like semiconductors. i put up a one-year chart.

walk us through it. >> so when you look at the semiconductors, charles, we've seen an incredibly bullish pattern. we've had a lot of relative strength. obviously we have a big a.i. focus in this name but when you look at the top-weighted tickers in this space they're all doing really well. they're holding up. yes, we've seen volatility in this space but typically when it polls back it holds. i'm looking for smh to hold 210, 215. i would like to see if i can start making some dip buys in there. charles: i show the audience, 215 happens to be the 50-day moving average. you buy the dip, break out over 240 and then you go to the bank with danielle shay. red flags, middle east we know, rate cuts, bank sell signal. what is the bank sell silknal. goldman was out with a pretty big number today. >> that is true, charles. if you look at xlf especially on the weekly chart, you will see we've had a major breakdown in the overall trend. i also don't like the way

jpmorgan sold off after earnings. typically the banks are going to come out and they're going to kick off earnings season. they will either be positive bullish catalyst or not but when you see jpmorgan sell off five, 6%, it just gives you a little bit of a red flag going into tech earnings season. charles: speaking of red flags, i have got 30 seconds. you're short shorting two behemoths. why are you picking on tesla and apple? >> because they gapped down multiple quarters in a row plus they're near the lows of the year. if you have previous lowers and earnings growth typically not great you can short them to new lows. charles: i have a chart on microsoft. what is that? >> i'm continue towing buy motorcycle soft, charles. it is one of my favorite stocks. i think i can trade it up into 440 up into the previous high.

charles: thank you, michelle. we have joe lavorgna, e.j. antoni. you have a lot of talk where this economy is. i think main street knows. i think wall street and the media refuse to accept it. wait until you see what we found after this. ♪.

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♪. charles: all right, folks, the pom-poms are out this morning when retail sales came out but you know it is not adjusted for inflation so how strong was it? lydia hu on that and so much more. >> reporter: charles i left my pom-poms out in the green room for this one because i can tell you retail sales this morning came in higher than consensus while february was revised higher. some might look at the report saying hey, the consumer is strong but we would suggest resolvedded is a better description. several cat categories were down, cars, clothing sporting group. we saw a tick up spending on food and gas. charles, that might speak more to inflation rather than increased demand. in fact we see people are spending more, we have to take into account how they're spending on credit cards t appears they're falling further and further behind. 30, 60, 90 day delinquencies ticking up. we have the worst data on record

for the fed going back to 2012. not a great look here. everyone has forgotten about the yield curve, how it is inverted. we haven't. we're taking a look. it has been a long time, 530 days. right now it doesn't seem like we have signs of a recession on the horizon. the economy seems strong. the market in general making records. unemployment is low but does that mean we should ignore the correlation or should we be more worried? as it turns out history said we should be worried about a more deeper recession. going back to the 1929, 600 day inversion led to a great depression. there was 530 day inversions ahead of the massive financial crisis. going back to the 1920s, we see numerous periods of inverted yields. most of them perceived a recession. there appears to be some correlation between the severity of the recession and duration of the inversion.

right here is the great financial crisis in 2008, when there was 530 days ever inversion like we're tracking now. now it should be noted with the final point, oil prices triggered recessions, something to consider now when we're thinking about the brewing conflict between israel and iran. send it back to you. charles: great, great stuff, lydia, thank you very much. joining me heritage foundation public finance economist e.j. antoni, former white house chief economist, smb chief economist joe lavorgna. joe, let's pick up, i want to work backward as little bit because i like what lydia kind of reminded us. know one is talking about recession, but it is intriguing, seven rate cuts, three rate cuts, no rate cuts, after that we start talking about rate hikes. is it still out of the realm of the possibility the inverted yield curve could be right? >> it could be right. no landing may be hard landing. it was unusual last year when most people thought there would be a recession and most recessions happen when people

don't see it. of all the economists consensus of the view you will have it. businesses might be a little more prudent. they might overhire but not getting so on soes sieve. charles: they been reluctant to fire as well. >> they have been reluctant to fire, that is exactly right. the yield curve will normalize at some point, charles. the question is how. if the yield curve normalizes the fed is cutting rates significantly. that is sign the yield curve is weaker. if long rates potentially rising significantly the funds rate over 5% that could be damaging to the markets. charles: ej, one thing you always point out, you do the nuances, right? you point out a lot of people are already in a recession, a lot of americans in their other than individual recession. >> exactly. i think that plays into some credit card and delinquency data we saw earlier. why the retail sales numbers continue to be good even after you adjust for inflation they are surprisingly strong. americans have given up saving

for retirement, saving for a down payment. we have a generation of americans, some people call it beaugy broke. they don't have anything in savings, why our savings rate is so depressed. they're living high on the low. charles: you point this out, joe, borrowing costs for the consumer is the highest since the fourth quarter of 2000 this is borrowed time. some people call that doom spending. whatever that is there is no future to it, right? >> rates are very high. we saw in the retail sales the interest sensitive components, building materials, furniture, appliances, autos, those categories were down about 1% year on year. that is before inflation adjustment. so yes, at some point, one would think if given where borrowing costs are the consumer will pull back and take the economy with it but as both of you gentlemen know the government is spending a tremendous amount of money. the deficit year-to-date through the first six months of the fiscal year running 1.2 trillion. when you spend all that kind of money you will keep demand

higher than other wise it would be. charles: speaking of which today is tax day. you like to point out how absurd our tax policy r it just nuts, right? >> it is, charles. take fame must long works between the bible, war and peace, entire series like the "harry potter" series, you combine all of these, no are with near the word count of the tax code, between what is in statute, also the tax regulations. it is 35 million words long. charles: so until they can raise taxes and who knows, i hope that's not the case after november, this government relying heavily on issuance. joe, we saw somewhat ugly 10-year issuance, one concern for you is t-bills. we had to ask danielle shay, danielle dimartino booth and a few others whether or not this overreliance on t-bills is making us a banana republic. >> the overreliance on increased t-bills.

what that does take money from the federal reserve balance sheet from the reverse repo and liquified the market. it uplifts assets. the problem if the fed doesn't cut interest rates, you're financing everything at the front end you will have significantly higher interest costs. fastest growing line items on the fed ram budget so that's a problem. on spending side, charles, it is not a revenue issue. if you look at the cbo's estimates 18% of gdp. the problem continues to be the spending side. spending is too high. charles: it will not go down. ej. first of all, i don't think it will ever go down with any party in a major way but what we're seeing right now is outright egregious this is crazy. before used to be this thing in politics, a chicken in every pot. now you can have a restaurant, you can have a car, like the oprah winfrey kind of thing. if you want it, we'll give it to you, vote for me. >> give your student loans while we're at it right?

how is that for timely? all these politicians are trying to run as santa claus. you're both absolutely right, as long as they do that the treasury debt issuance will continue to go through the roof. not only are we issuing new debt at the very high rates, but we're rolling over the old debt, taking stuff from two or 3%, longer term bonds and notes putting it into the bills like you said at over 5%. charles: where do we go from here, joe? i mean it's, we've had this conversation so many times. it doesn't change. it gets masked with other things because it is hard to really sop up trillions and trillions of dollars. it takes a little bit longer but in the meantime we're dealing with inflation that doesn't go away, bond yields are going through the roof, probably will go even higher particularly with the government issuance. >> when the market forces the political bodies to make a decision. charles: that is the bond vigilantes? >> the bond vigilantes. you get a situation where. charles: come out of retirement, like one of those old movies

were charles bronson and those guys? can we dust them off? >> death wish. charles: can we dust them off? >> you go back to underobama, simpson-bowles was 11-8 in favor recommendations. bipartisan commission and it died and never came out of congress. there is no political will or leadership or desire to fix what's really ailing juice before i go, i got like 30 seconds, on that note, does it ultimately come back to the voter, to us the voter? we won't be convinced until it hits us over the head. >> absolutely t will only be the american people experience enough pain they will change their minds but how much more pain do they have to go through? you look at inflation. you look at the fact american families are spending $250 billion a year just in credit card interest right now. what else will it take? charles: we'll know because i think it will get worse. ej, joe, thank you both very much. appreciate it. all right, folks, tensions rapidly rising in the middle east and there have been some consequences in the market

and probably will be more. gary k. really has a lot of passion about this along with his stock picks. you want to hear what he has to say next. ♪.

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♪. charles: march 8th the nasdaq 100 opened at 18312. this is march 8th. big move. it moved even higher to 18416. you can see the top of that tail there. then it reveried lower abruptly reversed lower this action, my next guest saw this action. it triggered him to tank profits in a lot of his tech positions. we have kaltbaum capital gary kaltbaum. it is coming up against the 50-day moving average. tensions are building up. feels like there will be a major move one way or the other. what are your thoughts here? >> the direction will be down. the big indices have been holding up. the advance declines are going to relative lows on a daily basis. i think they start getting the rest of them now. it is overdue. it doesn't have to be the a

death knell, the end of the world but you're supposed to have 10% corrections especially in technology every so-and-so amount of time and we're getting it. it all started with software, names like palo alto networks, i could give you a whole list and today salesforce.com down almost 20 because they're buying somebody? it just tells you that the institutions are distributing stock now and the almighty 50-day moving average is being taken out today on the nasdaq, nasdaq 100, s&p and the semiconductor index. so there is going to be some work to do on the downside as we head into may which they always tell me, sell in may, go away. we'll see what happens. charles: i have a few charts on that one. i'm not sure. to your point, we closed above the 50-day on the s&p on friday which i thought was a good thing. if we do break below here what do you use? there is a big gap down here. i wouldn't expect the s&p to go down 10%, would you? >> potentially. we're not target guys.

when we see something occurring in a direction, starting to happen, we never know how far or how long. we just know the directions at hand, we just get the heck out of the way, the day after march 8th, we sold all our tech, nvidia, amd taiwan semi, couple others. only thing we own is meta. we're up about 45 on it. everything else is gone except for gold. we just think we're due. we wouldn't be surprised to see another five, 10% out of this. and who knows what else. my biggest worry, charles, we've been telling you this, the amount of debt that this administration's piling on and, i don't know what kind of an ability we'll have at the auctions and we're seeing interest rates tick up on a daily basis here. that's the cost of capital. that is a big worry for technology and growth and i think we're seeing it at this juncture. i don't think it is, i think you cover it a few others. i don't think it will be covered

enough we'll have two or three trillion dollar deficits each year going forward, worse if we go into recession unfortunately. charles: some people are covering calling it good news. on friday, everything got slammed right. there was no place to hide. if you can't hide anywhere in stocks, you can't hide in bonds, yields are going through the roof, gold has made a big move already, what do you do in this environment? do you raise cash? >> we have a ton of cash. fortunately getting 5% instead of zero like three years ago. we take a step back. here's the good news. it is easiest to isolate the great strength when the market is correcting. our job every day is going to be what refuses to go down, what has great earnings and revenue growth and what's reacting well to earnings that will come in the next few weeks but right now i think the wheels are in motion i'm pretty darn sure. today is instructive. we opened up hot. they're selling it off. this is not aunt mary and uncle bob. these are institutions recognizing a very important

area that has been defended since last november is going by the wayside. that will tend to invite more selling by the big institutions. we just get the heck out of the way until it passes. charles: i'm like you. i love when they call go down. you sift through them, you find those opportunities. i have less than 30 seconds, i can't let you go without asking what is happening in israel. they're pondering a counter attack. your thoughts. as we do we'll show some of the protests around the country. of the golden gate bridge this is pro-palestinian, palestinian protest. >> two words for the people blocking bridges, super soakers will get rid of them pretty quickly. as far as israel i suspect iranian soldiers will not be near any silos where missiles are lifted off over the next couple weeks. i'm pretty sure israel will not sit back. that could or could not affect oil prices. if oil prices go higher that will be a headwind also for the market. look it, it is fluid.

the news is fluid. i'm just so happy that no damage was done and nobody was hurt during this barrage from these crazies in iran. charles: all right. let's leave it there, gary, thank you very much. always appreciate you. >> thanks, charles. charles: folks, guess what, it is not too late. join us on "unbreakable investor" the kids show decision. april 24, 2:00 p.m. eastern. in studio. it will be amazing show. standing room only. ask questions you will learn a lot. little bit of sawing might be involved. go to eventbrite.com. search for charles payne. get your free ticket. i will see you next week. natalie brunell, peter schiff, squaring off, bitcoin versus gold, you do not want to miss it ♪.

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charles: you been waiting, let's hear the having it is upon us on

the bitcoin community. take a look at that the fourth run the prior three also strong rallies over the next 12 to back 18 months of spring and the podcast natalie brunell. is there a chance when this initially happened we can get the cell news. >> a lot of this is been priced in we can expect short-term volatility but long-term the price has been trending up and we never seen the new all-time high in a cycle prior to the next having. things could get spicy. charles: it's amazing the first one is absolutely hard not to be enticed by what were seen over a certain period of time. >> the chart is expressive that bitcoin is going up in one direction but a lot of people get confused what is the having because we've never had an asset that has this baked in reduction

in the incoming supply regardless of the demand. i think it demonstrates the elegance of the problematic monetary policy that's an elegant set of rules with no rulers that we all engage in and participate voluntarily, no one is posing dishonest bitcoin has chosen as the people. liz: this is one of the core propositions of it. i want to ask about the last few days bitcoin is come down a lot so folks that are anti-bitcoin say there you go so as a hedge against geopolitics in a something flares up to collapse. what do you say to people like that. >> its fast money selling and the bitcoin in creating the volatility, the smart money in the permanent capital is seeking shelter in bitcoin and more and more investors will see as a flight to safety including when things get more uncertain and chaotic around us because bitcoin is one thing that is certain and predictable the having is another example of that that decouples the power to manipulate money from the state

and allows all of us to be in a fair competition so real value can come to the surface. i'm getting get back to you in a second but i want to bring in a friend of ours it seems everyone's gold member, goldman sachs saying gold 20 some hundred dollars an ounce this year end we know emerging markets and central banks have been buying gold for a long time go all the way back a decade these are central banks not the easy view or the fed let's bring in pacific capital chief economist the global strategist peter schiff. everyone is rocking and jumping on the bandwagon the question why this particular time. >> gold is probably going to close at a new record high close today it's only a few dollars off above 2370. gold is rising because the dollar, the euro, the yen, fiat currency is losing value, inflation is real and here to stay. it's not going anywhere near the

fed 2% target were headed in the wrong direction and will probably be in double digits by next year and eventually the first digit is not going to be one. the main buyers have been foolishly selling their gold to buy the bitcoin etf's. there's nothing elegant about losing your money in bitcoin. it's not going up, bitcoin peaked to a half years ago at 3. as we speak now is less then 27 ounces that's a 27% decline into a half years this is a bear market bitcoin is going much lower than this. if natalie were smart as soon as the segment is over she would sell all of her bitcoin. she doesn't sell it now it's a much lower price. charles: that's what we call fighting words. let me introduce the two, natalie meet peter, peter meet natalie. natalie what would you tell

peter. >> i know bitcoin is don't feel the need to constantly attack gold because were not threatened by gold and the reason that we have this failed fiat experiment that is impoverished our nation is because the defects of gold and is not easily portable and not easily verifiable and it doesn't off global settlement, centralized authorities hijacked it, they papered over and we have a system of leverage and re-hypothecation that hurts the working class bitcoin is immune to all of the on the savings account for billions of people and we really need and can most rely on and offers the final global settlement that we need, gold is the analog version of sound money but bitcoin is the digital and that's why it'll be faster in this race. >> there is nothing sound about bitcoin is losing the race take a look at your screen gold is up 25 or $26 and bitcoin clobbered there is no flaw in gold it

worked great for 5000 years the problem the flaw is with government and human beings not with gold but bitcoin is really flawed because it doesn't have any actual value gold is the most useful metal on the periodic table. that is why it's money. it has great characteristics that make it better money than other commodities but absent its intrinsic value and could it be money. bitcoin has no intrinsic value will. charles: anything can be money, anything can be money and people use it as an exchange. charles: here's the thing. bitcoin is on the rise, wall street is embraced it and this is a tiny bit. could you imagine at the rate of recognition. if bitcoin keeps going at this rate it's hard to deny it could

go substantially higher. >> i just told you it's been dropping for two and half years. charles: is at an all-time high recently. >> the decline will accelerate all all. it does not keep going up they suckered a bunch of people wall street did not embrace it they just tried to make a buck off of it. the wall street firms are not buying bitcoin with their own money this is their customers money dumb enough to buy it, they're just booking the bets and operated a casino then out of the blackjack table that the customers doing that. charles: natalie wants to jump back in if you look at the short-term bitcoin will be volatile but they've outperformed gold and when hamas attacked israel, since then bitcoin is up 125% and gold is up only 27%. that's really look at the numbers that were seen at the best thing about bitcoin no one controls the ledger where gold is really vulnerable to centralization and top-down

control which is why we need a system that is a neutral place to store your wealth. a neutral system. charles: why can't someone have exposure to both. >> first of all bitcoin is outperformed everything don't compare it to gold as outperformed stocks, real estate bonds, collectibles, that's because it's a gigantic bubble. if you want to own bitcoin i don't care if you want to lose money in bitcoin go right ahead it doesn't bother me but i'm trying to help give people advice as to what to do with their money. they want to have an investment portfolio bitcoin has no part. if you like gambling and wanted take some of the money that will take to the racetrack and buy lottery tickets or go to vegas. if you wanted take that money and gamble on bitcoin or any of the others that are out there, go right ahead. it doesn't bother me but i don't want to buy bitcoin. sure had about bitcoin years and years ago when i first learned about it i could've made a lot of money selling it now but i

didn't do that. >> that something he said on my show. >> i'm not going to buy it now. natalie you get a wish that you sold bitcoin mark my words. if i only sold my bitcoin i would had a lot of money. charles: have to give natalie the next word. >> we tried gold and it didn't work it was papered over the system has failed the american people in bitcoin provides hope for us, the working class, we want to work for something that has to be measured by a free market. so we can see real value emerge as exposed to being captured by politics and bureaucracy which ultimately is a system that benefits the few at the expense of everyone else. it's a system which the politically connected and special interest groups are at the top. we need a system for the people in bitcoin is for the people. charles: thank you very much. liz claman over to