student loan money, and they don't want it because the they is a small proportion of the total. okay? and i just want to put in one other thing. it was barack obama who nationalized student loans. he put it all into the department of education. proven brian that's right. >> okay, remember that? if. jackie: yeah. >> they have a portfolio of $1.7 trillion of student loans which they cannot service. now, quickly, there isn't a single person in the education department with any banking or credit background, and the interest from the loans was put in there to finance, ready for it? obamacare. brian: ah. >> so the loans are being defaulted and canceled, and the money for obamacare's going to be gone. brian if brian larry -- >> this is the stupidest, utter stupidest thing i've ever seen -- breep brian larry kudlow, home run aanalysis -- analysis. jackie: hay amazing to have you,

and "making money," send it to charles. of. charles: thank you very much. good afternoon, i'm charles payne and this is "making money." this is the money show edition, folks. ing i'm down in miami. we are live and it's exciting but also tumultuous. you see all the red on your screen? lucky for you we've got some amazing experts to help us break it down because you've got several, several things going on at a one time. obviously, why ising gold rocket aring up? if why is the stock market falling apart? what the heck is going on at the fed? have they changed their mind, and can they find an elegant way to come off of three rate cuts and how will the markets accept it? by the way, why are bonds up today? i've got an amazing panel. we're going to cover it all here live at the money show. all that and so much more on "making money. ". [applause] flub. ♪ ♪ ♪ who you gonna call?

♪ ghostbusters! ♪ if there's the something weird and it don't look good -- ♪ who you gonna call? if. ♪ ghostbusters! ♪ charles: all right, folks. here's the thing, there's a lot of things that are spooking this market we know, right? here's the the other ironic thing is that yesterday, think about this, the market had that real rough session on wednesday. we came back. what led us back? you had 11 sectors in the s&p, the 3 so-called growth sectors, they were the number one. information technology, communication services and consumer discretionary. if so it's ironic e because we don't believe in the traditional insurance like consumer staples and utilities, but what happens when those names can't carry you? i think what you're seeing on the screen is a perfect example of that. we're live with the money show. we begin with one of my favorite guests, a brilliant guy, jim bianco is down here with me. welcome to the show. >> thanks for having me. charles: let's just talk about what's your interpretation of

what's happening in this market right now? >> i think that the market's on edge on two things. number one is the shocking employment -- excuse me, inflation numbers that after three months there's a review, a rethinking about whether or not if fed's going to be cutting as much and whether or not inflation is on its path to 2%, and the market's thinking, no, not really. and the second one is kind of the more geopolitical concerns that a we're hearing now that that iran might do something this weekend to israel, and that's always a concern when you're -- charles: that's why -- maybe the bond yields are down and bonds are up today. >> yes. charles: flight to safety. flight to quality. >> right. because treasuries are the safest instruments and the in the world. foreign investors hide in the dollar, and you have got to put it into something, and treasuries seem to be the natural place. so you get this flight to quality when things get unstable. we saw this last week or kind of the similar story, and then the it reversed on monday. the bond market did when it didn't happen.

so hopefully, you know, this weekend doesn't give us much and we'll see what happens on monday. charles: and, folks, just to catch you up, apparently there's reports out that iran is ready to launch at least a hundred drones, mys styles -- missiles aimed at military targets inside israel. obviously, that will spark a counterattack. what about the earnings? earnings season kicked off officially today. major banks reported. jpmorgan among them. the initial reaction was down. how important is it that somehow earnings season takes the rally baton? because we can only expand if stocks without having underlying fundamentals improve also. >> oh, i think earnings season is critical. you need to see the earnings numbers expand. and it's not good when jpmorgan leads off, which today usually do, and they usually beat. and the perception is that they didn't really beat this time, and that's why the stock is having a bad with reaction. so if we want earnings, we would

hope that the leader was going to set the way, and and it didn't. that doesn't mean the other 499 companies are going to be bad, but it didn't get off to a good start. charles: you used a keyword there, the sort of perception. >> right. charles: i thought it was intriguing, jamie dimon's comments. he talked about cracks in subprime, and at the same time he said america's in great shape. this is one of my great frustrations. i wonder if economy -- any economists have any if poor relatives because if they tell me how great things are, and even when they acknowledge parts of the economy that aren't doing great, they point to these the aggregate numbers, and you just have to worry, i mean, how worried are you about the economy itself at this stage? >> well, if you ask me about the level of growth, i'm not that worried. i think that the level of growth is going to stay strong and it's going to keep the heat on inflation because the top end is doing well. the top end being upper income. they've got earning -- they've got stocks going up, home prices recovering, they've got interest from bonds now because we're not

at zero anymore. charles: right. >> but the bottom half has more of the debt than the top half, doesn't own assets and is seeing inflation. they better hope that their boss is giving them, like, a 3-4% raise just to keep even. if they're not getting it, they're falling behind. so it's really bifurcating the economy. charles: but if the rich folks start to see the market down, i mean, you know, they see this and they start to clamp down a little bit, that's trouble, isn't it? >> very much so. it could very well be trouble because that's really what's been powering it. 85% of the spending in the united states is from the if top 50%. that's why their spending is important. what inspires them is zillow tells them their home price is up, the s&p is up, their interest income because they own money market funds or bonds is throwing off cash for them. charles: right. >> if they start worrying that might not continue, you could see a change of behavior from them. charles: boston fed president kohl lints, i think she spoke --

collins, i think she spoke two days ago, and she kind of eased a little bit, she bought herself some room, she made headlines again today where it feels like the fed is rapidly coming to the a realization that maybe no rate cuts this year. finish. >> yeah. i think what the fed finish the underlying assumption whenever jay powell talked about we will cut rates sometime this year was an expectation economic data would show the economy was moderating, not falling apart, and that inflation was kind of on that last mile to 2. the data we've seen so far shows tata that's not happening at least at the top line, the aggregate level. the economy's staying stronger, the inflation rate is staying stickier. and as i like to say, it's not necessary to cut rates when that's happening. and i think that's what the fed is starting to realize. and maybe they're trying to figure out a way to walk that back without upsetting the markets. charles: yeah. i tell you what, that's a hell of -- it's so ironic that jay powell comes out with three rate cuts in november, and inflation

reads have gone straight the up since then. the credibility part gets weaker and weaker every day. jim, love seeing you, my man. thank you so much. all right, folks, you can see on the screen all the major indices are down, and, of course, we want to look at the nasdaq as a well because the nasdaq is really what's carried us, right? that's the home of these magnificent, amazing companies, amazing stocks. and i gotta tell you with something, if they start to falter because they've carried the s&p, but they certainly have carried nasdaq as well, maybe we are in a lot of trouble. i want to to bring in simplify asset management mike green. i want the start with your note on tech stocks, all right? is. [laughter] and it's a little bit scary here, sticking with the ghostbusters theme. so tech stock growth is going to get destroyed when rates move higher. that's scary. >> well, that is scare ally, but it's actually kind of an ironic tweet. so the concern that people have generally expressed is this idea that much higher interest rates are really what's going to change the character of the economy and change the character

of the market. we really didn't see that. so coming out of '22, into 23, we saw interest rates inma towned at much higher levels -- maintained. unfortunately, i think that sent the message to everyone that it doesn't matter, right, that the u.s. economy can sustain with much higher levels of interest rates and that inflation's going to be really hard to fight down. it's a bifurcated economy. those who have cash in the bank, they're feeling great. their assets are suddenly earning money. those who have borrowed money, those who have taken out car payments, those looking to buy a home, they're hopelessly lost in this environment, and we're starting to see that stress build. charles: are we starting to see a realization or at least a willingness to discuss that maybe rates, although we had one of the most aggressive rate-hiking cycles in history, were never restrictive enough? despite the fact we were told that famous pain speech that powell gave in jackson hole, he said be ready to endure pain. maybe there hasn't been enough pain across the board, and if that's the case, does the fed

have to go back to the drawing board and actually hike rates from here? >> i don't think so where. but i think part of whats' happening is there is not one right rate, right? the rate that you, that works for you may not work for me. the rate that works for small business that's now facing the realities of competition coming in from large, cash-rich, pluck publicly-traded companies, if you're running your local mexican food restaurant and compete against chipotle, chipotle has resources and has the ability to attract employees and do things you simply can't do. their cost of financing is a fraction of what you see in the small business area. and it's that small business if you look at the nfib report, small business reports are coming out, they're telling you things have never been as bad as they are right now. charles: right. and they also tell us that they're raising prices. >> they're being forced to raise prices in part because cost have not are retreated in the way that they have, but small businesses don't have the pricing power that the national chains do or others may end up

having. if apple raises prices on iphones, by and lance armstrong, we're going to pay it. or -- by and large, we're going to pay it. the simple reality is the local small business is actually seeing decreasing attendance, the local restaurant is seeing lower attendance. finish and these numbers are starting to retreat in the economy. charles: so, mike, listen, we've been somewhat spoiled. i lost track, 120 trading days, maybe more, without a 2% correction. mitt there's any red on the screen, people kind of lose it a little bit, right? >> yep. charles: so is there a point where, and i call it the proverbial snowball, becomes a boulder? is there a point where now the downside takes on a life of its own, in your mind where selling can bee get selling? >> that, you recall, really does characterize -- unfortunately really does characterize the market we're facing right now. we've had an explosion of people using options strategies to either generate income or change the protile of -- profile of the underlying return. when you do that, you're actually changing the behavior of the market.

it's creating positions under which dealers are going to hedge in the opposite direction of the marketplace. so if i sell a put, that's protection that the dealer now has. they don't have to think about it in the same risk framework. but if i start stopping out, if i'm suddenly forced to buy that back under distressed conditions, then the dealer's position will change, and the market can start to snowball, and it does feel that number's probably down around 4%, but it has to happen fast. charles: before i let you go, we just entered earnings season. not impressed so far, right? jpmorgan and the rest. we've got the receiving where inflation is not slowing to the rate everyone was thought and were promised. ful we're losing confidence in the system, the credibility of the numbers. so what's the most pressing concern for you? >> well, for me, the most pressing concern is actually happening in the employment markets and small business markets. so we're seeing the new york fed just had, just released its survey a couple of days ago in which they're highlighting those at the lower end of the income strata are starting to really

worry about their jobs. the fears about losing jobs has exploded. the other thing that i'm paying close attention torque i'm less worried about the inflation component, candidly, because it's happening in an understandable cycle. this last inflation if print was heavily skewed by the dynamics of motor vehicle insurance which i'm sure most of your listeners have experienced on a firsthand basis and also the dynamics of motor vehicle repair, but those two components accounted for a massive dynamic of it. if you remember, the entire inflation cycle was kicked off by used car prices spiking. when they spike, you have to replace that car under insurance, it costs you more money. but that doesn't translate through. higher insurance costs isn't going to get you to buy another car, it's going to do the exact opposite -- charles: so that corrects itself. >> i think it's towards the end of correcting itself, but there's an awful lot of problems created both by the failure of addressing inflation early and probably by keeping rates at these levels where it works for some but not for others. of. charles: great stuff. all right, folks, again, we've

got the theme, it's all set. there's so many things. so is this just sort of a bufferin in the road or the beginning -- bump in the road? my next guest says it's really key about the fundamentals. right here on the set of miami at the money show. we'll be right back. ms. ♪ ♪ -- the show goes on all night. ♪ til the morning, we -- ♪ it's odd how in an instant things can transform. slipping out of balance into freefall. i'm glad i found stability amidst it all. gold. standing the test of time.

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charles: so as i stated, when the market's down like it's been this week, it was down last week even though we had a nice rally last friday, i know individual nervous get very, very concerned. listen, it's part of investing, ups and downs. but your concerns are valid, we want to hit them, and we've got ubs private wealth management financial adviser, sarah a upon sec. higher net worth kind of focuses, even they are sort of a little bit of red on the screen for a couple of days can start to panic. >> it can still cause fear. i actually got a call from a client this morning who said, sarah, i heard the market's crashing, what am a i supposed to do?

and the reality is, charles, this is part of investing. we're coming off of a year in which we saw high double-digit returns for the s&p 500 and, oh, by the way, another 10% return in the first quarter. the market does not go up and up and up and up without any cost. so, look, we're dealing with geopolitical tension, there's concerns overseas, also concerns over inflation if about the cause or the path of interest rates. so it's very likely that, yes, we're going to see some type of pullback. and if you actually look at market history, how often do you see pullbacks in the market of between 5-10%? if it actually happens every single year. charles: right. >> so it's a part of the game -- charles: a couple times a year. >> right. exactly are. charles: another problem though, and you just hit on it, there are a lot of unare resolved issue ises out there that people are concerned about because i think one thing that unites the market no matter how seasoned you are is the unknown. and there's a lot of unknowns. >> there's a lot of unknowns. but there's always a lot of

unknowns. think about where we were, you know, a year and a half, two years ago a before we saw this unbelievable rally take off on the market. there were so many unknowns about the path of the economy -- charles: actually, we thought there were knowns, but they were all negatives that turned out to be positive. [laughter] >> right. we've been deal with war overseas in ukraine for quite a while now. now it seems like things are ramping up in the middle east, but there have been, you know, there's been war being fought in the middle east -- charles: listen, october 7th was when the brew a tallty of those attacks -- brutality of those attacks, and initially the market sort of -- it was everything we looked at first thing in the morning, and then we kind of stopped. this is another area thatting you know, at some point, to your point, maybe it won't matter anymore. if so opportunistic, how are you investing, how are you helping people invest in this environment? >> right now you need to think about, okay, what's going to perform well in any environment, and the way that we typically

think about that is, one, you want to make sure that your risk allocation is intact. you're talking about within the stock market, one area of the market that we're still the on the mix on is technology. on the mix on. why is that? it comes down to earnings. you were talking about earnings season just kicked off, but if you look at expectations for earnings growth for technology companies, they just continue to pump out numbers. it's unbelievable. and our expectation for earnings growth in global technology companies this year is close to 20%. charles: what about this notion if that the market, it's a notion and a desire for many, for the rally to broaden out? >> yep. charles: and we've seen signs of it although those top ten names still dominate, how important is it for that to happen? or, you know, just, listen, the market, there's a place where you being rewarded, maybe you're overweight in that place, i don't know. >> look, it is important. it's likely that the market is going to broaden out. we have seen a broadening out. when we say we like tech right

now, that a doesn't mean your entire portfolio is tech companies. so we've also had energy in one of our tactical portfolios that we've run which has worked really well so far this year with the geopolitical pressures and the increase in oil prices that we've seen. another place to potentially look is health care. part of the reason for that being health care has defensive components, but who hasn't heard about to semipick craze this year? there's a lot of growth potential there. charles: the federal reserve, how is it important for you? i mean, hopping term i think you probably -- long term i think you probably figure everything will even out, but near term they promised some rate cuts, and it feels like maybe we get none. >> the most important. we're talking about geopolitical pressures today, but when you think about what the market cares about, it's interest rates. who's in charge of that? it's the federal reserve. so they're extremely important. charles: sarah, great to see you. when we come back, we're going to delve into what's happening in the commodities area. of course, texs between

israel -- tensions between israel and iranings or other things are happening here. we've got two of the very, very best in that space, tracy shuchart's with us, krb -- [inaudible] right here in meme miami at the money show. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're not talking about practice? no. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. not a game! we've been talking about practice for too long. -word. -no practice. we're talking about cashbackin. we're talking about cashbackin. i mean, we're not talking about a game! cashback like a pro with chase freedom unlimited. how do you cashback? chase. make more of what's yours.

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doing so hot. what is going hot though, commodities. so we're lucky to have really probably the best when it comes to this, chief market strategist tracy shuchart. tracy, first time we've ever met in person. >> i know. charles: oh, you're so great. [laughter] there's so many questions because the commodities thing has gone through the roof. let's start with gold because that's the one thing -- i've had more guests in the last week who have never mentioned gold saying they're loading up now. i don't know if that's good or bad, but you've been an advocate of gold. this breakout is amazing, but it feels like it's more than just an investing opportunity because we don't normally see 4% moves in gold. >> right, absolutely. i think what gold is telling us is they're unsure about what the central banks are doing, what kind of message the central banks are giving because on one hand we have jay powell and the federal reserve telling us everything is fine, the economy is wonderful. unemployment is low. of we're doing great.

now let's taper qt and cut rates. well, why? charles: right. >> if everything's so great? charles: it's interesting, because i you have to divide central banks into two, these large central banks, you know, the e e cb, the federal reserve, i don't know, maybe the bank of japan, and all these smaller central banks who have been accumulating gold for a decade, but the last few years they've been buying all the gold they can find. and i wonder, why? who -- what do they know, what do these the other banks know? is it an indictment against america? is it saying as the country that leads the rest of the world, we think they're going the implode? are hay trying to use it as the basis for their own currency? why is it so aggressive ant this? >> i think it's a combination of everything. really, we have seen china be an aggressive buyer just within the last couple of years. and we do know that, you know, their currency just became a reserve currency that's counted in the basket. and so, you know, that could be

some of them trying to back up their currency -- charles: right. >> -- and get wider uses of the yuan. charles cals there's some traditionallyist es say the currency should be backed by gold. certainly the full faith and credit of the government, they've kind of squandered that with all the money printing. >> well, absolutely. and and we just saw zimbabwe, in fact, has a new, another new currency -- charles: golly. [laughter] >> that is going to be backed by gold. so, you know, or it's interesting, and it will be -- charles: so zimbabwe got the message, we should get it, right? >> maybe. charles: the other part, oil. oil's make a big movement i thought technically it was a little toppy here but, of course, now we start to get these headlines that move oil a little bit more. you've been a big proponent. you like oil or, i know, for the longer term. what do you think near term? >> i think near term we're definitely in overbought territory, technically speaking, you know? it wouldn't surprise me if we

saw a bit of a pullback. but, you know, or really unless we see opec if or saudi arabia with, i should say in particular because they are bearing the brunt of those voluntary cuts, until they decide to move and get away from those cuts, then, you know, the supply-demand situation is very precarry yous right now. charles: right -- precarious. >> eia said we're 900,000 barrels per or day in deficit right now. charles: really? 900,000 barrels a day? also i just saw the headline that the biden administration is going to make it more expensive to drill. >> yes. charles: that, i don't understand either. >> yeah. so what -- they have new legislation. that their going to do is they're going to increase these rent fees. they're going to reduce options. heir going to reduce -- they're going to reduce options in alaska and take a lot of that

block that was reserved for drilling, take that off the market entirely. and then they're going to raise lease bond rates from 10,000 to 150,000. charles: supply and demand, we know 101 what that means for oil. so before i let you go, where are the opportunities right now? someone who wants to say i want exposure to commodities, where would they be looking today? >> you know, i really like the silver market right now. again, it may be a little extended, but i think you can buy this market on pullbacks whether that's in an etf or a miner -- charles: is slv a good may? >> i like slv. i also like miners who are just starting to break out, and they haven't caught up to the silver price just yet. charles: right. >> once we start seeing sill veer prices over $30, pure silver play miners are going to do extremely well. charles: tracy, it's great to see you. all right, folks, listen, the

commodities thing, by the way, the it's a global market. it's mind-boggling how big it is. we seem to be myopic when we think about this, you know? we talk about, listen, what's china's economy. why has copper been moving up. there's a lot of different things. we're lucky to have someone who's from a firm that has a global footprint when it comes to this stuff, joining me now chief market strategist kathryn rooney varon. krv in the house. it's great being in your city. so, you know, this is an area you trade. you understand this better than most folks. what do you think the message is, you know, with the rapid move in like, okay, if we were just moving up a little bit in gold, fine. but we've had a major breakout. maybe that attracted non-buyers looking for an opportunity to scalp a trade, but it feels like there's a bigger message going on here. >> yeah. the bigger message is actually this has been going on since 2021 when the u.s. imposed sanctions on russia. we saw sabia massive account

surplus countries diversify away from the u.s. dollar and the treasury and go into gold. and that's an ongoing thing that has been the main driver -- charles: right. that's amazing. and just to remind folks, so russia invades ukraine, this is global monetary system, the swift system, right? and we take them off of it. which, okay, you know, might sound like a way of punishing them, but it kind of backfired. and even allies are saying, hey, if we ever piss america off, they can flip a switch. no one wants to be that vulnerable. >> that's exactly right. that's why china, if you look at their holdings in treasuries, they've been declining. they still hold a fair if amount, the biggest holder outside of the u.s., but they're holding less. and the reason is because they realized post-u.s. sanctions on russia that if you're not in the friend zone, you're vulnerable. so they said let's diversify and add to our gold positions. and that, i would say, is the main driver of what's taken gold

higher. i think we are way over our skis. i think we're probably going to see a correction here -- charles: a correction in the equities market or the commodities -- >> no, i'm sorry, a drop in gold price. i think that it's way overbought. you know, we have people clamoring to get into gold when before it was a massive i underheld position, and the reason it was so underheld in etf holdings, etf holders say why would i go into gold when it's a zero-yielding asset in a world of 5.5% fed funds? if inflation stays high and the fed cannot cut this year, that's not good for gold. charles: well, let's just go with that premise then. what would it mean for the other financial markets, bonds, stocks, things like that? >> i'll just add that inflation -- gold is less of an inflation hedge, and that's why i referred to that. it's more of an inverse relationship with interest rates. so when interest rates come down, gold goes up i. if interest rates stay high, then the opposite. right now, actually, i think if we're in a world where the fed cannot cut the 100 basis points i initially thought at the beginning of the year, we're probably going to see that money

in money markets stay there. charles: over $6 trillion, maybe goes to 7 trillion. >> correct. there could be even more money going into cash because there are a lot of underpriced risks in the market coming into this year. the s&p is really, really accelerating very quickly. aye been a proponent of buying put options. they're more ec pepsive now. they were -- expensive now. they were cheap -- charles: that was more of a hedge. >> absolutely. charles charles an insurance policy. >> yes, indeed. charles: it's paying off bigtime. >> and if i think it's important to consider rotating into defensive sectors that could outperform if we do see geopolitical tensions or a conflagration. charles: the tension's in the air. nice seeing you, k pressures v. all right, folks, want to get to some of your money mail. a lot of folks feeling the pain from inflation. it's not just the red on your screen. and, of course, the idea that bloomberg called it a nagging

problem got under your skin. grant says inflation is a gut punch to the vast majority of people. your employer if are trying to deal with it, you are trying to deal with it. stop electing fiscally irresponsible people. if i had a cam wean -- tambourine, my manage i'd be plague it. chris, three years ago i was very comfortable, now not so much. and that fundamental sage tweeting we all know cpi's manipulated and doesn't accurately reflect reality for most people. amen. government data, we cannot trust it, and it's getting worse. and terry tweeting that she liked my suit yesterday and tie. [laughter] and tweeting looking forward to meeting you at the -- wait, is terry here? where's terry? if. [laughter] oh, man. anyway, thank you very much for your hard work. have a fantastic time in miami. i am, folks. thank you very much, terry. love hearing from everyone. keep the comments coming, folks, @cbpayne. if you want to join my unbreakable investor, the quiz show edition, remember, it's in new york city if at our studio

wednesday, april 24th, 2 p.m. eastern. the last two to were standing room only, absolutely phenomenal. wait until you see what i've got, you're going to love it. go to eventbrite.com, search charles payne and get your free ticket right now. be ready to learn a lot. okay, back here here to today, it's a brutal day for the market. my next guest still hopeful for a rally. rob luna is here, is so get out a pen and pape if or because rob loves when the markets are down. we'll be right back. ♪ ♪ ♪ limu emu ♪ ♪ and doug ♪ hello, ghostbusters. it's doug... ... of doug and limu. we help people customize and save hundreds on car insurance with liberty mutual. anyway, we got a bit of a situation here. ♪ uh-huh. uh-huh. ♪

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charles: all right, folks, a lot of investors concerned about this. we know that ups and downs are ineffable, but still it's tough. -- inevitable. we brought in rob luna to help us. before we get to the opportunistic part, let's talk about how we got here, what we're looking at. just how vulnerable do you think in this market might be right now? >> well, look, i think there's been a whole change of narrative. everybody was expecting, charles, as you know, interest rate hike cuts coming into the year, and you start looking at

cpi, ppi, that really hasn't plaid out. then you get jpmorgan coming out with not the greatest numbers and jamie dimon if what he's talking about, pretty soon you're going to have the sell in may, go away crowd. so i think the narratives has changed. i think people are nervous, but that's to be expected, charles, and if you're buying when everyone's happy, that's not how you make money in this market. charles: you know, what's interesting to me is the narrative itself. like, i don't know how we got to this narrative. for the last six months, the question i've always asked is, where do we see -- how can you have both? how can you have a super or duper strong economy, a super duper strong jobs market and need to cut rates? the equation never made sense to me. and then, of course, this whole notion that inflation was going down. inflation hasn't gone down, the rate of growth has slowed. it's still the up and it's compounding particularly for most americanss. if -- americans. >> yeah, no, i completely agree with you, charles. i don't know how heir going to do it. and the truth is, i think if

they do it, that's extremely inflationary. be careful what youish wish for. watch out a year or two years from now especially if we get a change in administration and we get some actual fiscal policy coming in. that's not going to be good. i don't personally believe the fed does need to cut rates, but that doesn't matter if the market thinks we do. and i think we're wrestling with that psychology of can we be okay without the fed coming in to save the day. charles: well, can we? i mean, listen, honestly, to be quite frank, listen, alan greenspan maybe set this in motion, the so-called maestroful he saved the day after '87 which , by the way, black monday was the roughest day in market history, but we've become so accustomed to the fed coming in. so many people have taken their eye off fundamentals. ultimately, is that what folks should be focused orange knowing what you own and knowing when they're on sale? >> at the end of the day, charles, it's a market of stocks, not necessarily the stock market. and one of your guests was

talking about technology, energy. look, there's companies that irrespective of what's going to happen with the overall economy like technology, they're going to continue to do well because they're going to create efficiency, create economies of scale. so i think in these types of environments, i guess like always you have to look for individual plays that are going to be able to do well, and i think there's a lot of names that investors can hang their hat on. charles: all right, let's talk about a couple. i know you like a lot. i've got to go with netflix. now, i had netflix. we closed it out for a huge gain. what is it that you like right now about netflix? what a makes it a buy right now? >> i mean, look, netflix has tremendous momentum going for it right now. but what i really hike is what you're seeing reed hastings do. i call it his jeff bezos moment. he's realizing that he has to expand beyond just his core audience. he's getting into gaming, which is great right now. you're starting to see some advertising. and what i really like though, charles, is they've created this platform just like amazon did years ago where i think there's many more levers that they're

going to be able to pull. and so i think if you look at this company, quarter of a billion dollar company, trillion dollar company right now, i think this could be the next trillion dollar company 5-6 years from now. a lot more levers to pull, it is got some great momentum. netflix is name i really like right here, charles. charles: we're talking about a 3-bagger. you know you always get us salivating there. hey, less than a minute to go. apple, a lot of folks have kicked apple to the curb, it's going to be a while before they're a player again. you think, no. >> yeah, they're coming in. they're talking about chips for a.i., how many new cameras can you make and get consumers excited about it? and you're not going to necessarily upgrade for that, but if there's a.i. put into the phone, now one's going to want to miss out on that one. the stock is down, it's trailing the s&p. apple's not going anywhere. you've got to buy a company like apple when it's underperforming, not when it's outperforming. it's pulled back nice, still down 10% year to date.

i just got back in early this week, i think apple sees 220, 225 in the next 12 months. charles: great stuff, rob. hey, thank you so much, my friend. talk to you again real soon. my next guest says the market is finally having its wake-up call, but is it too little, too late and just how much woke will this market get? mitch roschelle is here with us live at the money show. he's next. ♪ wake me up before you go-go. ♪ don't leave me hanging on like a owe owe. ♪ wake me up before you go-go. ♪ i don't want to miss it when you hit that high ♪ ♪ ♪

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it's odd how in an instant things can transform. slipping out of balance into freefall. i'm glad i found stability amidst it all. gold. standing the test of time. charles: all right, folks, we mow that the big story right now, the big curve is inflation. is these -- concern is inflation. could we be in for some real pain, the pain that you say you've been feeling? wall street's starting to pilot.

joining me now, mitch roschelle of. mitch, great seeing you with. so you say that the inflation story's going to the to get worse from hering. >> well, when oil hits $100, and it probably will, oil -- i hate to be, use a pun, but oil fuels inflation. so producer prices go up. oil prices, energy prices are sort of embedded in probably half of the basket that's part of cpi. when that happens, shaking that out is really, really hard. and the analogies between where we are today and where we are, were in the '70s when inflation if last, you know, reared its ugly head, it's starting to seem very, very eerily reminiscent. so i think inflation's going to be the story for 2024. charles: right. it did not go gently into that good night in the '70s. >> no. charles: and it took paul volcker to really, really crush the economy, you know, to the point where he ask and ronald reagan were seen as a villains initially. but after time, after inflation was killed and it was deadly, after they crushed it and the economy was allowed to come

back, they were seen as a heroes. but we were told that jay powell's' ready to do the same thing, and he came out the gate pretty strong. but we haven't had a rate hike since july. and this is one of the longest periods between a hike and a cut, and now they seem con size. how much of this action is concern that maybe the fed doesn't have a handle on this. >> i predicted and i think on your show that if we saw any cuts, it'd be in the first half of the year because powell didn't want to interfere with an election, and and now, like, powell's got another problem. it's not a matter of when he cuts, it's a matter of do we cut or do we raise. charles: right. >> so the last thing we want to do is sort of throw more fuel, i hate to keep using that word, on the fire. if you look at those numbers, there were things in that jobs report that really frighten me. government, you know, basically creating jobs. health care sector, okay, that makes sense, but a lot of those are probably the migrant jobs in health care. leisure and hospitality, again, some of those are migrant jobs, but business and professional

services was very small, and that's the segment that fuels the economy, right? we're a service economy, and they're not creating jobs. charles: right. private sector was 230, and a lot of those were low paying jobs or not the kind of things we see organic growth. so it's a dilemma. how do you invest in an environment like this? >> i think you've got to figure out how to be defensive. we were joking about four corner defense. you look at dove depends, right? -- dividends. one of the stocks i like is div, a dividend-paying etf. that's a good defensive mace to be. and if grow want blue chips names, exxonmobil, right? oil story, your not going to get hurt there. ibm, which is old tech not new tech, i think you have to -- if you want to be in the market, you have to look for something you may not get growth so long as you look for dividends. charles: although irk bm is rebranding themselves as an a.i. play. they've always had watson, they've made some acquisitions, but they feel like they're starting to get some of that

a.i. money. exxonmobil, yeah, if oil goes to 100. what about some of the other things in people's portfolio, they're going to have to ride it out then? >> i think if you went up the curve, the meltup, if you will, with some of those tech name, you're going to hold those names. you're not going to sell apple or amazon today. you're going to -- charles: what about the higher beta names, right? i mean, it's great, and i've always a told people -- >> tesla? [laughter] charles: well, yeah. that's a good example. if you have a stock that can go up 5-10% in a day, it can go 5 10% in a day, and it feels great on the way up. a couple of bumps in the road, you wonder what the hell's going on >> one of the things that i've done for a trust that i managed is on the way up rather than buying the stocks, i was selling out of the money puts, not to get overly technical, and if waymented -- i wanted to get out , as a way of bringing in

some income, you can use strategies hike that. but you've got to wait those names out. there will be another time during the year when there's some good news and the market runs up, but i think we're going to be -- charles: what would be the good news? because we've got the election also at a some point that casts a shadow e over this market. >> i think geopolitical headlines are going to get more -- techs are going to get more headlines because they're tied to oil. we got the cpi number, the market took it on the chin. we got the ppi, they said, hey, maybe that was a blip -- charles: and it took back all of the losses -- >> but look what happened today. any macroeconomic if story that feels like maybe inflation is the problem, but i think fundamentally in my heart inflation's a problem. charles: mitch, great to see you. >> yep. charles: all right, folks. just want to say, again, we're down here at the money show, and it's just wonderful or, right in

these folks behind me, the curious, the concerned, they really care and they want to be better investors. by the way, not for selfish reasons, right in people just want to see that the nation is doing well. they want to make sure that they're doing well, their family is doing well. and it's so a ironic because everyone, we talked about a gold, right? you have to talk about gold these days because the move that it's made, it's an historic move, hit 2400 for the very first time, but it's also the velocity. it's telling us something. it's saying something is absolutely wrong. and this, it's interesting, when you get this shiny metal and main street on the same page. because main street has been telling us something is wrong for a long time. the lack of leadership, the lack of fiscal restraint, the lack of resolve from elected officials to get anything done except spend more money. now, i can tell you right now though, here's the most beautiful thing. people are very, very optimistic. the people behind me and we know in america, we always remain optimistic about the future even though we're dealing with