good evening, we are from ukraine. today in the verdict program with serhii rudenko. the clearing of the northern outskirts of vovchansk continues, the defense forces foiled the plans of the russian army to quickly capture the city. what the offspring can be. of the visiting rate of the supreme commander in kharkiv. in search of a political solution, putin is discussing the so-called ukrainian crisis with xi jinping in beijing. will the chinese authorities be affected by american warnings about the inadmissibility of military aid to the kremlin? the first fan outages this year. in several regions of ukraine hourly schedules have been introduced. study

of electricity, did ukraine draw conclusions from last year's attacks by the russians on energy? glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program, my name is serhiy rudenko, i congratulate everyone and wish everyone good health, and first of all, i congratulate you on vyshyvanka day. for the next two hours , we will talk about ukraine, the world, the war, and ours. victory, let's talk about putin's visit to sijinpin and their conversation about the future of ukraine, the meeting of the ukraine-nato council, as well as fan blackouts in ukraine, and one more important topic - this is the future mobilization, as well as those who are currently trying to book and release from mobilization. we will talk about all this with our guests over the next hour. with

people's deputy of ukraine, former deputy prime minister of ukraine, ivana klympush tsinsadze, general mykola malomuzhe and political expert volodymyr tsebulko. however, before starting our big conversation, i suggest watching a video of how the operators of the 8th separate regiment of special operations forces, together with the fighters of the 92nd separate assault brigade, conducted clearing in one of the settlements in the kharkiv region, four occupiers were destroyed, two more were captured, let's see. how was it all?

glory to the armed forces of ukraine and death to the russian occupiers. friends, we work live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms. for those who are currently watching us on. live on these platforms, please subscribe to our pages and also take part in our survey. today we ask you about the following: has your home in yelov been affected by the power outage? yes, no, everything is on youtube it's quite simple, if you have any comments on this issue, please leave them under the video. if you watch us live on tv, on the air, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote. 0800 2113. 81 if your home has been affected by

a blackout, no, 0800 211 382, ​​give us a call, we're interested in your opinion and we're interested in knowing what percentage of our viewers are currently suffering from blackouts, i'd like to introduce our first guest today, this is ivana klympush tsinsadze, people's deputy of ukraine, head of the committee of the verkhovna rada on ukraine's integration into the european union. and former vice prime minister of ukraine for european and euro-atlantic integration. mrs. ivana, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our conversation. thank you for the invitation, and i wish everyone a happy vyshyvanka day. i hope that there was an opportunity to wear those things that are defining for us and that allow us to feel proud, confident. and i hope it will always be like this in...

independent ukraine. thank you. beautiful words, mrs. ivano. let's start our conversation with today's meeting of the nato military committee in brussels. and it happened today. meeting of the ukraine-nato council. ukraine's successes on the battlefield are unprecedented and ukraine will have the support of nato every day. this was stated by the head of nato's military committee, robert bauer , during a meeting of the military committee at the level of the chiefs of general staff of the member countries of the north atlantic alliance. let's hear what he said. the leadership of russia chose the path of impunity. they act as they please. they actually want to spread their power. border so as not to lose her at home. that is why the leadership of russia sent hundreds of thousands of its citizens to war, and they do not even take their bodies. moscow uses food and migration as a weapon, and therefore now in this hall we must do everything to prevent this plague from spreading, so that the international order

is respected. ms. ivano, this week there was a lot of talk about ukraine and nato, about ukraine's prospects. the north atlantic alliance received a statement from the yarmak and rasmusin group or commission, which states that ukraine must be a member of the north atlantic alliance no later than july 28. to what extent what is said in the alliance and what is said in ukraine, how much it coincides and how much the vision of how we want to gain membership, to acquire membership in the north atlantic alliance. coincides with the desire of the alliance itself in the current situation to consider even potentially such a possibility? you and i know that in the alliance the decision is made by consensus, that is, by all members of this club, so to speak, of the military-political club, and on

today, unfortunately, there is no complete unity regarding further integration of ukraine, to come to some, to some other level on... relations with the alliance, and we do not have, at least, a decision to invite ukraine to the nearest summit in washington to the alliance and start some kind of process that would determine specific steps that ukraine should take, as and how the countries, nato members see it for themselves, so we have to work in various other ways... well, let's say so, and strengthen interaction with the alliance in different in other areas, but not only hoping for some close decision on accession and membership, and therefore somewhere

, we certainly still have partners who are actively lobbying and promoting the need to invite ukraine as soon as possible, and there are partners who currently believe that ... the main priority, including for the alliance, should be to provide ukraine with the maximum amount of weapons to attack the russian federation, help ukraine in the production of its own military capabilities, help in training the troops, help in the transition to the standards of the alliance, not purely in the military sphere, actually in the sphere, if you like, of political and wider security, which concerns everyone in general. departments and rules and procedures that ensure the defense and security of the country. mrs. ivano, to what extent the situation can change and what should influence the fact that during the next two months the members of the north atlantic

alliance still dare to give an invitation to ukraine, or to articulate this invitation, that is, to say that... the country is starting this long journey or to find some another formula or wording in order to, accents in next year and this year were clearly arranged and so that russia clearly understood that no matter what happens, ukraine will be a member of the north atlantic alliance, and this is what nato representatives say. well, you know, you and i still remember that in vilnius the representative of... the alliance told us after the vilnius summit that, well , if we really didn't have this in mind there, that ukraine and georgia would become members of the alliance, despite the decision of 2008, when we did not receive an action plan regarding membership, but

we were promised something there, so here is the decision already in vilnius, it says that ukraine will definitely be a member of the alliance one day, and we hear these assurances. we are simply there constantly during various different visits, including the last visit of the united states secretary of state to ukraine, but at the same time... as we see, there is no appetite today to move to another level. can something change in these two months, i'm not you, i'm not ruling out the possibility, because we've already seen in these two years, uh, full-scale the attacks of russia, the full-scale war of russia against ukraine, many things that seemed impossible have already become history, and they have become possible and become realistic, or something? a conditional black swan can also happen with regard to our membership in nato, and whether it is

an invitation to membership, i do not rule it out, but at the same time, you know, trying to achieve this or trying to move to another level of relations with the alliance, i would not only demand something from the alliance, i, for example, do not see that during this time since the end of last december year, when the government for... reiterated this annual national program, supposedly, this is a more compact one, which should give us a clear direction, how we move further towards membership, so that the government initiates at least one, at least one, at least a bill that would be aimed at on our move to nato. it seems to me that only by demanding, at the same time, not making any political... changes at home, which would convince our partners that we are serious, not only from the point of view of

the protection we need, but also from the point of view of the necessary for us, for the necessary for us changes for of full interoperability, including in the political sphere with the alliance, are ready to move towards it, but we do not demonstrate such things, and it seems to me that this also does not go unnoticed, would it fundamentally change the situation to... probably not, but would definitely provide additional positive arguments to those of our partners who are actively trying to promote this story already within the alliance. ukraine is also being talked about quite actively in beijing today, because the meeting, a two-day meeting between putin and sydney, began today by name, and of course, the russians are trying to use this meeting to convince everyone to be. on their side, on the eve of this visit, putin said that he was impressed by china's peace plan for

ukraine, although he did not specify which of these peace plans, apparently the one that was made public on february 24, 2023, although this is not a peaceful plan, but what xijin pin says and how he tries to comment on it is the possibility, as he says, of a political settlement of the crisis in ukraine, well... it is called a crisis, but russia's aggression against of ukraine, let's listen to what the leader of china said. china and russia believe that only a political settlement of the ukrainian crisis is the correct way to solve it. china's position in this regard has always been clear and consistent. the chinese side hopes for the speedy restoration of peace and stability in europe. i understand

that all the talks that took place all day with biden, then with macron, scholz, with ursula funderlay, they all did not give any result, because he is again talking about the crisis in ukraine, about the political settlement, putin. like china's so-called peace plan, everyone will flirt with putin in this situation, or is he now trying to bargain with european countries, with the united states of america, well, about his role in this situation? well, we didn't have to expect that everything would start calling the war between russia and the free world, which is happening today on our soil, in a different way. and above all, ukraine restrains this entire attack, when after he invented

to call it a crisis, and it is obvious that it has nothing to do with a crisis, and the meaning of the word crisis, probably needs a big and serious clarification in the chinese dictionary, but it will be important for us whether as a result of these negotiations between china and russia, whether the supply of dual purpose goods to russia from china will continue to increase, or china will ignore the risk. that chinese banks come under american sanction pressure, american sanction pressure, we have seen a certain, well, certain increase in caution in transactions between chinese banks with their russian counterparties, but at the moment, we cannot guarantee

that these operations will be curtailed and further reduced. in the future, unfortunately, it can also, even if they will decrease, unfortunately, it can also mean that they have come up with some other way, like these calculations, which will be well in this area for traceability from the western world, we, unfortunately, we see how today china, trying to tell the world about its alleged neutrality, actually stands on the side of the russian federation, well, the only thing it does not do at the moment... it does not provide direct military aid to russia, but at the same time is using the maximum western sanctions pressure on russia for the benefit of its economy and will continue to do so and will continue to certainly build up opportunities for itself to strengthen its country, so for us this is

actually such a serious challenge, and a serious challenge also for... our partners, which, well, so far, all their efforts, all their negotiations, they do not give a serious result in limiting aid to china, russia, and we understand that that if china will stand behind russia even in such a quasi, that is, in such a hybrid form , then it will obviously be more difficult to cope with such a russia than... if it did not have this, this such a serious shoulder, well, not only china can stand behind russia, and turkey too, because politicians, you have obviously seen this publication, they claim that the european union through turkey massively imports russian oil, hidden by other labeling, russian oil is legally imported into the eu as a mixed fuel, marked as non-russian, only

thanks to deliveries from three ports, russia thus earned up to 3 billion euros in a year, do you understand? that erdogan and turkey, they are our partners and reliable partners who help us during the aggression of the russian federation, and erdogan is doing his best for us, but he is also doing his best for himself, so in this situation, should the ukrainian side appeal there to the european union or to some international structures for that matter. that despite everything, russia still transports a lot of russian oil to the european union, earns from this and as a result again finances his army, which then goes to destroy ukraine. of course, it should, and this is not the only question that worries us, which we constantly ask our partners, for example, in this

last year, for the year 2023 , imports have increased very significantly by 40%. of russian liquefied gas to the countries of the european union, so, you know, you can be proud for a long time that they stopped buying pipes and gas pipelines that go there by land or by sea, practically stopped, except for a few countries that for themselves negotiated there transitional periods, such as hungary or austria or slovakia, but other countries that allegedly gave up. natural gas, they continue to buy it through liquefied gas, and now we are talking about the fact that in the next sanctions package of the european union, after all, these possibilities of purchasing liquefied gas and pumping, say, in liquefied gas ports on tankers, will not happened in european, in

european countries, i hope that... these issues that concern this mixed oil and the issues that concern finally the need, we have been talking about this for a long, long time, the need to impose sanctions on, on the nuclear power industry of the russian federation, all these things, they should be reflected in the next sanctions packages, and right here, well, we have to clearly indicate where we... see these problems, we must clearly indicate further where and which companies are currently abusing loopholes in the sanctions regime and are making the most of it to... our lithuanian colleagues, they are now initiating such, well, such a general european discussion about what is needed establish national, or rather,

pan-european legislation in the eu, regarding how they should internally punish their own companies that violate the sanctions regime, or that continue to conduct trade in violation of... sanctions with the russian federation, and i hope, that our lithuanian colleagues will not be alone in such proposals, and will not be alone, and will receive support among others, but that's all, well, unfortunately, it always takes quite a long time, and we see how trade grows unexpectedly with third countries from side of the european union, for example, with the same kyrgyzstan or uzbekistan. and we understand that this is not because interesting markets have appeared there, but precisely because some countries or some companies use these third

countries to circumvent sanctions against russia. thank you, ms. ivana, for the conversation, this was ivanna klympush tsinsadzi, people's deputy of ukraine. friends, we continue to work live on the channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us live there, please subscribe to our page, also take part in our survey, today we ask you about whether your home has been affected by fan power outages, yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, if you watch us on tv, take hand your smartphone or phone and vote, if you are affected by the blackout, 0800 211381, no 08021382, all calls to these numbers are free, vote, at the end of the program we will tally up the results of this vote. next , mykola malomush, the head of the service, will be in touch with us of foreign intelligence of ukraine in 2005-10, general of the army of ukraine, adviser to the president

of ukraine. mr. general, i welcome you, thank you for being with us today. congratulations, glory to ukraine. glory to heroes. mr. general, let's start our conversation with the situation in the kharkiv region, in the kharkiv direction, the intensity of hostilities has increased, the situation has been partially stabilized, and the clearing of the northwest continues. walking outskirts of vovchansk. this is reported by the general staff of the armed forces of ukraine. the defense forces thwarted the plans of the russian army as much as possible wedge as much as possible into the depths of the urban development of vovchansk. today, president zelenskyy held an on-site meeting of the supreme commander-in-chief, which was devoted to the main challenges at the front, in particular the situation in kharkiv oblast. as of today, the situation in kharkiv oblast is generally under control, our soldiers are inflicting significant losses on the occupiers, but the direction. remains extremely difficult, we are strengthening our units. mr. general, what are the russians trying to achieve by attacking the north of kharkiv region? well, first of all

, we see that strategically putin cannot fulfill the tasks that he set before his military, and of course, this is even shoigu's rotation, a concrete example of the fact that the strategic tasks of capturing the donetsk, luhansk, and zaporizhia regions were not successful. that is why a new strategy is being used today, striking in other sectors with the aim of diverting large forces and means from the east-south direction, where we have prepared accordingly and have the prospect of counterattacks while already receiving military equipment and ammunition, and the enemy clearly knew this, therefore, we had intelligence information for a few weeks that the enemy had identified two sectors, that is, kharkiv and sumy regions, to conduct. tactical offensive operations, generated up to 45,000 different units of the russian armed forces there, but in order to

strike at the beginning and in kharkiv oblast, the assault failed, because really the first sector was the kharkiv direction, three breakthrough lines where they tried to pass, they seven villages on the outskirts of ovchansk also entered to some extent. plant on the northern spike, but this is at the expense of huge losses, for three days lost only 750 soldiers, representatives of the aggressive forces, several dozen tanks, armored personnel carriers and bmps, radar systems, that is , the first phase of offensive operations was powerfully undermined, and in some sectors there were no powerful ukribrations there, because there were various reasons, maybe not actively e. which directions worked, but as a rule, it was under a powerful direction of fire every day, the entire sector and not only near volchansk,

but along the entire, so to speak, border. and kharkiv region with the russian federation, therefore means defense, especially on the border, will be extremely difficult to do, but the middle line of defense and the third line of defense are already powerful fortified areas that give one hundred percent the prospect of powerful strikes on the enemy, and in some direction they managed to go, because there were several sectors, which they probed, simulated offensives and went right to... which we already know today, in particular one of the strategic ones is vovchansk, but we quickly controlled the situation, raised new reserves, appointed a new commander who really had real experience and real military gains in the south and the east of our country, and this introduced a new model of defense organization, counterattacks, striking with firearms at a distance,

i.e. the tactics of small... groups, seizing individual territories or settlements, but we carried out unblocking operations, counter-attacking flags and striking the incoming reserves with firepower, so the reserves were cut off and these marching attacks failed, and of course, this thwarted possible strikes sumy oblast, so i think that now... the forces are rushing to kharkiv oblast, because they set the task of breaking through at least in one sector, but in addition to the task of pulling our forces east from the south, because they predicted that we would withdraw a number of special forces brigades and battalions, for example, chasovyar, pokrovsky direction, from avdiivsk in the whole direction, it is clear that the enemy will be able to capture chasovyar, move to konstantinivka, kramatorsk, slavyansk

and the rest of us. point of the donetsk region to carry out putin's order to capture, in that the time when we will engage in just powerful unblocking or striking in the direction of kharkiv region, but we did not withdraw resources, mainly the reserves and partly some special forces that were able to master the situation in kharkiv region, so the first component failed - it is to withdraw our reserves from with the aim of advancing the front in the east or south. they attacked literally yesterday and the day before yesterday. today, both time from different sides and the pokrovsky direction have been activated, and robotino tried to capture literally the same period, taking advantage of the fact that we do not have powerful reserves and special ammunition, which we mainly expect to use in the kharkiv direction, the second component is to create a bridgehead for the offensive, the third component is to show russian society that it is infrastructural that they capture something every day, failed, and the fourth... event,

that russia deploys large-scale operations in other sectors, so that both western countries and during the meeting should show that there are no prospects in ukraine, and to agree to a peaceful putin's plan. this more strategic task is connected with these very breakthroughs in the kharkiv direction and an attempt to reach new landmarks somewhere in the east in the south. mr. general, the analysts of the american institute for the study of war say that? that the situation in the kharkiv region shows that the russians want to create a buffer zone there or as a sanitary zone, putin himself once spoke about it, that is, to create a section between the ukrainian and russian borders that would not allow the ukrainians to strike the territory with artillery russian federation, at the same time, volodymyr zelenskyi in an interview

with the abc tv channel. says that russia will not be able to capture kharkiv if we have two patriot systems and that there is such an opportunity to protect the second capital of ukraine or the first during soviet ukraine, is it the intention of the russians to besiege kharkiv, or will they still limit themselves to this buffer zone, taking into account the fact that they did not even manage to take vovchansk in two or three, not as they planned, and there are no buffer zones, there is only an entrance into individual sectors to create a buffer zone, it is necessary to really win some partly the positions along the entire line, so to speak, demarcation of the border, several hundred kilometers, it is simply unreal, the same means he used, especially the consequences that we have today,