ethically ambiguous issue. eu countries differ in their intentions to help ukraine return conscripted men to their homeland, what threatens defectors abroad? glory to ukraine, this is the verdict program. my name is serhiy rudenko, i greet everyone and wish everyone good health. for the next two hours we will talk about... the country, the world, the war and our victory. russians attack chasiv yar, ukraine joins nato only after victory. we will talk about this for the next hour with our guests, the people's deputy of ukraine, former head of the security service of ukraine, valentyn nalyvaichenko, military expert mykhailo samus, and political commentator volodymyr tsybulko. in the second part of our program, which will start at 21:15, we will have people's deputies of ukraine, viktoriya syumar, yaroslav yurchyshyn. and vadym

halaichuk. however, before starting our long conversation, i suggest watching a video of the consequences of another terrorist attack on kharkiv. in the morning, the occupiers targeted the kyiv and holodohorsk districts of the city with three guided aerial bombs. because of blows, unfortunately, one person died, another nine were injured, let's see.

he was about to turn 26 years old, he was at his workplace. man, who is standing here. friends, we are working live on the espresso tv channel, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are currently watching us live there. please subscribe to our pages, take part in our survey. today we ask you about the following: do you support the activities of a public broadcaster independent of the authorities. yes, no, my own option, please write in the comments below. with this video, if you watch us on

tv, we have telephone lines where you can call and express your opinion, if you support the activities of a public broadcaster independent of the government, well , relatively speaking, the tv channel public and whether public, 0800 211 381, no 0800 211 382, ​​all calls to these numbers are free, vote at the end of the program, we will sum up. of this vote, we are in touch with valentyn nalivaichenko, people's deputy of ukraine, former head of the service of security of ukraine, secretary of the verkhovna rada committee on integration of ukraine with the european union. mr. valentin, i congratulate you, thank you for being with us today. good evening, glory to ukraine. glory to heroes. mr. valentin, let's start our conversation on the issue of nato, because yesterday nato secretary general jens stoltenberg came to kyiv with an unannounced visit and... judging by what

president zelensky said following the visit, ukraine will not be able to become a member of the north atlantic alliance until victory in the war against russia. let's listen to what he said president of ukraine. in my personal opinion, we will be in nato only when we win. i don't think that they will take us during the war. in nato, for some it is a risk of nato members, for some, some people simply have skepticism because of it. the issue of nato is a question, the secretary general incorrectly said, it is a question of the majority, and the majority is a political question. and to take political ukraine into the alliance. this requires victory. so, sir. as far as i

understand, ukraine has nothing to expect from the nato jubilee summit in july, formally speaking ukraine may receive this invitation, but this invitation will be delayed in time before ours. victory in the war with russia. i would immediately clarify a very important issue, that actually ukraine's membership in nato, and the main engine and locomotive of our membership, is the armed forces of ukraine. time. second, every step that we are now taking together with nato member countries, at ramstein, at joint exercises from abroad in nato member countries , our military specialists, the best, by the way, and he... other issues cooperation up to intelligence cooperation, all this is the gradual integration of ukraine into nato and the north atlantic alliance. i am speaking as an expert, and therefore i want to remove this a little bit, you know, maybe someone is disappointed, or i warn you not to despair, because

in fact other countries also joined nato in this way, step by step, bringing their military standards, weapons, intelligence and counterintelligence in accordance with nato standards. this is exactly what ukraine, the armed forces, does, only really during the war. and one more very important thing, well, what about integration into nato the training of each combat unit, the logistics centers that are currently operating on whose territory, nato member countries, our neighbors, poland and other countries. and what do they work for? to provide a rhythmic and complete supply of everything that is and will be released by international partners. he was preparing for the july summit. this year is the anniversary of nato in order to bring already from ukraine, i think, at the highest level, a concrete plan of action, how we use the weapons that we received from nato, how those units that learned and trained in nato member countries, and can and will become the basis of our

integration into nato. i think that we will achieve it through specific, military, not political, military steps. nato membership, and, by the way, one more argument, mr. serhiu, during the war we were told, i actually work in the committee on integration with the european union, secretary, everyone told us, well, what kind of integration in the eu, it is now impossible , look, there is bombing and so on, and we worked as a whole committee day and night, both under bombing and under sirens from european partners, and think about it, in two years and two months, ukraine received the status of a candidate for joining the european union, fulfilled. fulfills the association agreement already this year, already this summer we will start negotiations on full-scale membership in the european union, this is an unheard-of pace and unheard-of results for other countries, so it is the same with nato, the only specificity, i emphasize this and repeat, the engine and the locomotive

of our integration is the armed forces of ukraine. but considering the condition in which zar, in which the armed forces of ukraine are currently located, they are absolutely... created and are being created now according to nato standards and , moreover, separate battalions have been created for a long time, like the same azov battalion for a long time, or a regiment already now, they were created according to nato standards and according to all these models that exist in other armies of the world, if we take the current, current condition of the armed forces of ukraine and their capabilities, we can be a large part of this large community, where... most armies did not have such experience, i wanted to say fortunately, or maybe, there was no such experience, and we could train many people there , including real combat potential, combat experience, and most importantly, what do you call the combat

condition of the armed forces of ukraine, our units, well, it is clear that it is an order of magnitude higher than in other countries, including nato member countries. what we lack, let us be more specific, including in order to... become a full member of nato, combat aviation in the sky, additional air defense systems, satellite and other communications protected by nato standards, and most importantly, that it be in each soldier, in a helmet, you know, what kind of helmet protects the life of our defender, but even there communication and a lot of other information is needed, which on the battlefield makes it possible to fight effectively according to nato standards, and all of this must be received by each of our defenders, each unit. this is what we are working on, but i emphasize once again, who are we working with? we work specifically with nato member countries. that is, in fact, as a candidate country for joining nato, as well as with the european union, only in peaceful areas. i emphasize that this is the most important thing, and for military specialists, for

our general staff, well, it's also not a secret, well, they are already working with nato advisers and directly with the commanders of the armed forces of nato member countries, and with the commander, by the way, of the combined forces of the north atlantic alliance themselves, these are already such, you know, not strings, these are already such serious tightening processes , which us, ukraine and our armed forces. not just attract and draw in, but gradually make it part of nato, part of the defense potential of united europe. special assistant to the president of the united states of america thomas reid says that ukraine will not be accepted into nato, neither now nor in the next few years. let's hear what thomas wright said. this is definitely a difficult aspect, since ukraine is currently in the midst of a major war. we can take steps that will improve its defenses and security here and

now, and over the next few years, so that when that moment comes, when it joins, it will be in a stronger position. mr. valentin, anyway, let's go back to the july nato summit, can the north atlantic alliance give a clear signal, first of all to putin, that ukraine will be in nato, and maybe, maybe... er, this introduction, although delayed, will be in time, but the actions of moscow will depend on this signal, and the actions of the whole world will depend, yes, there should be and will be a signal, remember my words at the anniversary summit in washington, he it will be 705 years of nato, but it will not just be a signal, we are up to it, we are currently working with... our nato partners, in any case, i am one of those deputies of the verkhovna rada who work in this direction, we are working on

not just the signal was sounded in july, and that all the achievements that are thanks to the armed forces to the forces of ukraine and our defenders, ukraine already has 32 countries with nato, with each country a member, even the last ones who joined, the swedes and sweden, well , just a week ago, we and the swedish delegation met both the government delegation and the analytical... centers, which precisely serve their defense and security sector. each country is a member of nato, it is already our partner, and in the military sphere. before that , finland became the 31st member of nato, with finland, remember, there was a president, literally a month ago there was a chairman of the verkhovna rada, i took part in these negotiations with the highest leadership of finland, they also handed over 23 packages of defense aid according to nato standards, correctly, to ukraine, to the armed forces of ukraine. sergey, that is why i emphasize so that our tv viewers, dear ones, understand that this is integration into nato, because replacing

parquet summits, champagne and everything else, father, by the way, is not integration into nato, integration into nato is combat capability, weapons, and armed forces, we have the armed forces, then combat capability and weapons, we really need more, and we are working on this in and within the framework of ramstein and at the bilateral level, and key partners for us remain. nato member countries. mr. valentin, yesterday kharkiv was hit by a north korean-made ballistic missile, and there is already evidence of this from the un north korean sanctions monitors, and they confirmed that kharkiv was hit by north korean-made missiles, which is direct violation of council sanctions. of security, that is who and in what way should

a state subject to sanctions, because north korea is already a state subject to sanctions, in what way should they it is possible to bring to mind, in addition to the sanctions that are already in place, that is, what the world should do regarding north korea, well, this should be an example for iran and china as well, there are as many examples, mr. sergey, as you need what is the position of china, what should you... also join and really implement all the international sanctions that are imposed on north korea, first of all introduce and control so that no military and other equipment that north korea supplies to north korea by sea, as well as by rail korea really uses making these crippled missiles, but unfortunately they are killing people, and even more unfortunate that russia, a terrorist country is taking it from north korea and channeling it. in fact, on the heads of kharkiv residents, odessa residents, and essentially throughout our state. i think that it is china and its

position, but now we are waiting for very important negotiations and visits, visits of chinese leader xi jinping to france and other european countries, so that after all china joins these sanctions. in my opinion, this will stop, in any case , limit russia's ability to supply components for north korea to manufacture. these own terrorist missiles, again, for russia to wage war against us and kill our peaceful citizens. mr. valentin, you have already mentioned this visit, the planned visit. xinping to france, there will also be an anniversary meeting, or the anniversary date of 60 years of diplomatic relations between china and france. the day before, president macron said that he is ready to discuss the possibility of involving french nuclear weapons to create a system to protect europe from russia, and it seems that he and xijin pinh are talking about this too

will speak, because china actively participates in all negotiations related to nuclear weapons. china is a nuclear power, what does macron say? he says, in an interview with mediagroup ebra, i am in favor of opening this debate, which should include anti-missile defense, means of long-range fire, nuclear weapons for those who have them, or who have american nuclear weapons on their territory. let's put everything on the table and see what really protects us in a reliable way. at the same time, macron reminded that the french military. the doctrine assumes that france can use nuclear weapons if its vital interests are threatened. what, mr. valentine, does this statement by macron mean? macron is constantly now trying to stay ahead of all european leaders and demonstrate his ability to lead europe forward. what does this declaration of nuclear

weapons mean for the creation of a system to protect europe against russia? this means that the president of france really. now occupies a strong position, firstly, secondly, france is a nuclear power, thirdly, france is one of the largest economic and military powers of the european union, and nato. and now, actually at a high level with the french colleagues, i talked about what they really want to discuss behind closed doors during sinzimpi's visit to the chinese leader in paris. first and foremost, putin has already got everyone, as well as his henchmen with their nuclear weapons. well, the whole world, including china, warned: do not transfer nuclear weapons to belarus, which russia and the kremlin did, they transferred nuclear missiles, well , the truth is under their control, but nevertheless , russian nuclear weapons spread on the territory of belarus, therefore behind closed doors through the door, the president of france will clearly say to the leader of china that look, you influence, you call

the aggressor country and its leadership a partner, a friend, but they and he are nuclear. simply transfers and, and to whom, to the belarusian regime, and for what, who threatens belarus, no country threatens, on the contrary, belarus is a co-aggressor against ukraine, against us. so, france and the french leadership are going to hold the line very hard, and indeed, they are conducting negotiations, have already held with germany, after i think, during the visits of the chinese leader, there will be negotiations with the united states of america in order to reach a collective agreement. anti-missile and anti-nuclear shield for all member states of the european union. france can add a nuclear triad here. the triad is submarines, airborne, french air force and land-based missiles. so far , this is exactly what the leader of france, the leader of germany and

other european countries are talking about, and it is precisely these plans that president macron spoke about when he... meant that the table should be set for all this look. thank you, mr. valentin, for the conversation, it was people's deputy of ukraine, former head of the security service of ukraine, valentin nalyvaichenko. friends, we are live on the channel and also on our youtube and facebook platforms, for those who are watching us live there now, please join our platforms and also take part in our survey, today we ask you about this, do you support the activities of a public broadcaster independent of the government, yes, no, everything is quite simple on youtube, if you have your position on public broadcasting in ukraine, please write in the comments under this video, if you watch us on tv, pick up your smartphone or phone and vote, if you support the activities of a public broadcaster independent of the government 0800 211 381, no 0800 211 382, ​​all calls to these numbers are free.

we will be in touch with mykhailo samus, military expert, director of new geopolitic. research network, mr. mykhailo, i congratulate you, thank you for joining our broadcast, i congratulate you, well first of all, mr. mykhailo, let's talk about the situation that is developing around the time gap, because this is the city that the russians are now trying to enter, as our leaders of the armed forces of ukraine and the state have repeatedly said that by may 9 or 7, when the so-called on... the so -called president putin, that the russians want to enter this city, the spokesman of the khortytsia operational-strategic group of troops, nazar voloshyn, told our broadcast that the russians continue to pressurize the people, for this the occupiers do not regret personnel, no equipment, however , there is no enemy army in the city yet, the defense forces

are controlling the situation, let's listen to what nazar voloshin said, and in order to capture him, for the time being, the russian army is trying to bypass him on the flanks through bohdanivka and ivanovsk, there they dare to storm these villages in order to take... let's say the remnants of time, but they do not manage to do this, the enemy conducts assaults, these are mobile fire groups, which you may have already seen on video, on the internet, many such videos, on golf carts, motorcycles, cross bikes, the assault continues around the clock, but the enemy is not succeeding there, mr. mikhail, so far the enemy is not succeeding, but it is obvious that he is striving for it, how do you assess the situation that is currently developing around the temporary? ravine and what makes russians admire this city? well, actually the russians are attacking not only in the direction of the temporal ravine, they are trying to act in several

directions at the same time, we have already said several times in and in the programs and analyzing the situation that, in principle, the russians will try to use it as effectively as possible may, because they understand that the window of opportunity is closing and ukraine will have more opportunities, first of all, more ammunition, more opportunities to use artillery fire in order to prevent a breakthrough on various targets, as it ... and receives american european aid , while ukraine mainly uses fpv drones, they are trying to improve armored vehicles, including using their own so-called ingenuity, so that just... fpv drones were not possible to destroy their means of delivering, let's say, personnel to the assault areas, and

since there is a limited amount of artillery, since there is a limited amount of anti-tank weapons, the russians are trying to use this very moment, as only ukraine, the armed forces of ukraine will have enough artillery ammunition , enough anti-tank weapons, and plus more and... fpvvodron, i think that this will be the end of their offensive, but again everything depends on the pace of delivery, the promised aid, because the decision was signed by president bayten, now bureaucracy is included, logistics is included, and here we understand that there may be a certain time lag, which russia is trying to use, and i emphasize, not only in the time gap. after the official announcement by washington of the decision to grant ukraine. as

the head of the polish foreign ministry, radislaw sikorski, said in an interview with a group of german publications , washington's transfer of atakams missiles to ukraine should lead berlin to transfer taurus missiles to kyiv. let's hear what radislav sikovsky said. i hope that the events. the last few days will have a positive effect on the chancellor, and in particular, the us has provided ukraine with long-range missiles, the famous 300 km atkam, and i hope that the chancellor understands that this is a response to the sharp escalation by russia. well, mr. mikhail, what can you say about this intransigence or fear of germany. for their missiles to fly towards the temporarily occupied territories of russia, i understand that this is the biggest problem and the biggest, the biggest fear of scholz, that these

missiles will fly to the crimea, and then russia will accuse germany of being entered the war against the boss of ukraine, and accordingly , it is impossible to expect any kind of answer from putin. accused, germany is one of our biggest friends and partners in terms of aid, and i would like to draw attention to the fact that germany just now found the opportunity to hand over the first patriot, the first battery complex to us, when president zelenskyi of ukraine started talking about seven patriots, which we need as a minimum in order to stop these attacks on ukrainian. civil culture, energy, other military and civil objects, and germany is precisely the leader of this process, so in principle, if germany

leads the anti-missile and... air coalition, i think that this is a rather effective use of those funds, large funds, by the way, there are about 7 billion dollars germany this year promised to spend on ukrainian aid, it is also quite effective, in relation to taurus, there are several points, in addition to the psychological and political complexes of the chancellor himself, there are also several technical points, that is, specialists claim that and... unlike stormshadow and scalp are not it is so easy to adapt to soviet aircraft, that is, this process is difficult, expensive and long, that is, of course, if it could be started a year ago, then in any case we would have these missiles in our arsenal now, but once it turned out like this, that germany still doesn't want to do that, i think if they concentrate on anti-missile aid, that would be good, and if... really

the united states, again, we 're talking more about what's in the press right now, we don't know for sure if the united states, for example, will transfer to us 300 km is enough for atakams, i would say that ballistic missiles are a pretty good addition to those missiles that we have skalpshadow, plus ukrainian neptunes, it would be possible to create a complex threat for , for example, a group. of russian troops of occupation in occupied crimea, and this would have its effect from the point of view of preparing the operation for the deoccupation of crimea, even without the tauros, that is, resources are still limited, and now it is necessary to provide the most effective and fastest possible assistance, that is, if the atakamsy can be delivered quickly to ukraine, i would still bet on the atakamsa, plus tom shadow and scalp, since they are already adapted to our planes, and so on.

germany still concentrates on patriot, iriste and other possible systems, including, for example, short-range systems, because we constantly talk about medium-range systems, we mean patriot iriste, but those systems that could to help fight against russian drones, and not only shahed, strike, but also reconnaissance ones, which are now create a huge threat, because... they sometimes fly to a depth of 100 or more kilometers behind the front line, create problems in the frontline areas, in odessa and so on, they are the ones who conduct reconnaissance and strike with iskanders, daggers and other means, by air-based cruise missiles, and this is a huge problem, and maybe you have seen how i 50, how 55 is used, but from the point of view of a more

effective ... anti-aircraft anti-missile shield, we need, including , for example, german anti-aircraft means already short range, that would be nice. mr. mykhailo, but considering that our western partners give us help regularly, but it is not enough to create parity of forces on the russian-ukrainian front. what and how can create this... parity, what is missing now, what our western partners are not adding yet and whether they are able to give enough weapons to ukraine in order to equalize, well, the parity that i am talking about on the front, when the ukrainians will not look weaker in terms of weapons, it is clear that the motivation ukrainian troops are much higher than russian troops, but

there are still not many weapons. what is missing, what is it that western partners do not dare to give to ukraine yet, and this is what we really need? well, in principle, politically, in fact, almost all systems are already allowed, but precisely because the united states did not give six months, did not make a decision, they were engaged in their political processes, there was a gap, a rather powerful gap both in ammunition and in artillery, and not only in atakams, but in any for... long-range, anti-tank weapons, that is , we have in principle quite a lot of elements, and it is too early to talk about parity now, that is, i would say the first thing is ammunition, that is, the basic element is artillery, ukrainian artillery must take out russian infantry and artillery to a sufficient depth in order for the russians not to be able to even plan their assaults, offensives and so on, now of course this cannot be done,

the main means...