time, or is it just some kind of political demonstration? no, turkey is not fighting israel, that is an exaggeration. turkey demonstrates its position, this position remains unchanged for a long time. in fact, all the time of, let's say, the netanyahu government, or most of the netanyahu government , we saw exactly this kind of turkish. position, well, the deterioration of relations happened, you know, a long time ago, that is, back in the zero years, when the israelis attacked a turkish ship, and therefore there is nothing new here, yes, this is a position, the position is perceived by the majority of the turkish population, and actually erdogan is quite comfortable with this position, the fact that other, well... let's say there partners are not ready

to accept this position, erdogan does not get around this, that is, he, in principle , can normally demonstrate his independent, independent self positions on this issue, since there is no clear and unambiguous position on palestine, including among nato countries and or among this war or among the west as a whole, but... on the other hand, we see a situation where erdogan now has to justify himself to the more radical islamic public in turkey for criticizing israel and doing nothing economically to weaken it? yes, without a doubt, well, this is a political, internal-political struggle, we know that this is a new party of bla blahodenstviya, which, actually, is now gaining points and gaining votes and... and including

biting off these votes first of all, this act protis, it is clear that they want to make their political capital precisely on this, and that is why their policy, their strategy is to raise this issue in society and to criticize the current government precisely for turkey's unwillingness to directly influence this conflict in any way, that's why i think that there are certain demonstrations. such a different position on the part of ertogan, not least under the influence of the growth of these islamist radicals. today marks two weeks, in fact, since iran attacked israel. mr. igor, in your opinion, what is the further development of these events, is an escalation possible in the near future, or is that all? will quiet down and will be in the

positions that are, that are now, well, yes, we are here we can name many dates, there were three weeks when israel attacked the consulates, two weeks when iran attacked israel, one and a half weeks when israel attacked iran and so on. so, now there is a certain strategic pause, because at least iran has to solve the issue with its air defense and aircraft, i.e. then for him it is absolutely necessary, and without it they are not ready to further escalate the situation, and accordingly gather their allies, as far as these allies are ready to go with him to the end, or at least to the logical conclusion of this of the conflict, it will be political, political support, whether it will be military support, or it will be some other, it is combined support, that is, it is very important for iran, because they do not... feel confident,

including even in the support of russia and china. yes, on the one hand, there is no doubt that political consultations are taking place, and it seems that they are, in words, actively supporting iran, but we understand that china has much more interests, and china invests, it is much more interesting for him to invest money in saudi arabia than that iran itself, and russia, accordingly... it also has problems and a war on two fronts, in this case, it is probably not the best option for russia, and making israel an enemy is also probably not a very good prospect for moscow, so everyone hesitates, and the iranians are also hesitant, well , israelis among israelis, israelis also have a lot of different... opinions,

there is a radical wing in the government, there are ultra-nationalists who demand an end, well... victorious, of course, the end of the war in gaza, then the war in lebanon, then it will be iran's turn, there is netanyahu who is trying to stay in power, which is being pressured by the ultra-orthodox and, accordingly, the ultra-right, well , there is a society that is a little bit removed from the shock of october 7 and is trying to ask some questions of the government, so there is also no... a clear, clear agenda, well, i i'm not talking about the pressure from the united states of america, which gives weapons and money with one hand and pressures with the other. thank you, mr. igor, igor samivalos, the director of the center for middle eastern studies, was on the air,

now we will take a break for just a few minutes, but don't tune out, we still have an interesting dialogue is ahead. we hope what is bahmud? bahmud is a place of fear and a place of bravery. no matter what anyone says, bravery is not the absence of fear. bahmud is the adventure that will stay with us until the end. our days. the children were born in the era of independence. who are they? there are many of them, and they are strong and brave. these are the guardians of the traditions and martial arts of their ancestors, these are boys who never cry. lemberg, mother, don't cry. a book by the writer olena cherninka. a mother's book about her son,

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visa. 20% in plantain pharmacies, you and savings. exclusively on the air of our channel. greetings, friends, politklub is on the air on the espresso tv channel. the most relevant topics of the week: russia's war against ukraine, the war in the middle east, the crisis on the border between ukraine and poland, topics that resonate in our society drone attack on kyiv. and on other cities of ukraine, drone attacks on moscow and other cities of russia. analysis of the processes that change the country and each of us. the country should get the right to start negotiations on joining the eu. vitaly portnikov and guests of the project: we are bored because there is nothing to fight about. let's win. they help

to understand the present and predict the future. for the world, a second trump presidency will be terrifying. a project for those who care and think. political club. every sunday at 20:10 on espresso. the premium sponsor of the national team represents. united by football. strength together. we continue saturdays. club and we 're coming back after a short break, we have 50 minutes to talk with vitaly portnikov, actually on some of the most important topics this week, so mr. vitaly, we've already started talking, basically with

valery chaly, about this deal or deals that were published in the divelt newspaper, right? nevertheless, i would like to discuss it with you and really understand what it was, it really was, relatively speaking, some kind of draft project, yes is it conventionally speaking... is it some kind of russian injection and was it possible in principle in 2000 22, and is it important, is it possible in principle now? look, we need to discuss all these projects with you, to understand how russia generally views the former soviet republics, how it generally views the negotiation process between them. russia considers the former soviet republics to be countries. with conditional sovereignty, that is, in fact , the territories of russia itself, which for incomprehensible

reasons withdrew from russia with the help of measures that need to be reversed sooner or later , but by and large, i don't know if you watched this series, which was filmed by the anti-corruption fund about the 90s, so there are no chekists in this semina series. who by and large believed that after the communist party of the soviet union ceased to exist, i apologize for going so far, they should take over the power in the country, and they by and large for the period from 1991 to 2001, this power was not only completely taken over, but also consolidated, but they never intended to rule only in the russian federation, because they always believed that it was the state security committee of the soviet union, of course in this situation they believe that they should rule all of them. the state, which was ruled by the communist party of the soviet union, they feel cheated, they had such,

such a wonderful plan, to destroy the communist party apparatus, to come to power, to create a market economy in such a way that they could take all the money for themselves through their avatars, so -called russian oligarchs, as a result they have only part of the territory, and lost part of the territory in europe. well , the territory from which you could scare the europeans, make them look like, you know, round eyes, well, by and large they have since 2001, notice this, they have started a whole cascade of special operations in order to remove all this to hands, chain mail, ugh, what is this story about the supply of ukrainian weapons to iraq, not proven by anything, isolated president kuchmov finally. united states did not want to sit next to him at the table? yanukovych in

order to bring his agent to power in kyiv. in the fourth year, then in the 10th year, then in the 13th year, to break the association agreement, annex crimea, well, we know all this. so, what could the idea look like, well if... let's say, agreements with such a country, it's very simple, you need to prepare such documents that will lead to destabilization of the situation, and will help get rid of the authorities that do not want to make the necessary compromises. remember how leonid kuchma's rule ended in 2004, when he signed an agreement on a common economic space with russia, belarus, and kazakhstan. in fact, ukraine was already one foot there, it was the final. why did leonid kuchm

sign this agreement? because there was a successful special operation to isolate him in the west, he realized that he would not be able to conduct a pro-western course. yes, by the way, here i absolutely agree with you that early kuchma and late kuchma, that is, kuchma in the middle and very late kuchma. yes, which left russia, went west, maneuvered, and then again came to... the kremlin, but it was all thanks to these special operations of the zlubyanka, if it were not for the maidan of 2004, i assure you, we would have been like belarus, well, this is one, one illustration of the agreement, now let's remember the minsk agreements, the minsk agreements were our last such moment of resistance to this attempt of russia to destroy our subjectivity, because ukraine did not sign these agreements. there, the same kuchma, who did not hold any positions, signed it again

with official representatives of russia, there with the ambassador of russia, since then there was this protocol with representatives of the occupied territories, but not a single ukrainian official, because it is obvious that president poroshenko was aware of all the consequences of the fact that he will sign with some kind of zakharchenko of platnytskyi, all these documents were not signed, it was not as if it were a document about the regulation of relations in ukraine itself with people. whose legitimacy ukraine does not recognize, but do you remember the destabilization of the situation after the minsk agreements? yes, in fact, then it was not just destabilization, then on... they tried to split ukrainian society, and let's remember these protest actions, there were a lot of different kinds of movements that came out, yes , against the minsk agreements, and we must understand that this is in in principle, it could also, conditionally speaking to be provoked and from within the country, they did not even need

to provoke someone specifically, they understood that the very fact would already create a certain instability in the ukrainian government. it's just that the political forces that were there after the maidan did not want to go to a tough confrontation, they simply saved the situation, by and large there could have been something that allowed it to advance further. now let's look further: 2019 zelenskyy meets putin in paris, what starts after that? becomes the curator of this ukrainian direction is kozak, and kozak is trying to drag down our country. in one strip after another, this, as it was called, the coordination council, with representatives of the horde, which was proposed by kozak, and with which yermak agreed, and this, by the way, is the only official document where there is a signature of a representative of the real ukrainian leadership with representatives of these occupied territories, it happened once, but again, there was such a sharp resistance that

the president's office realized that this was a diplomatic mistake, refused to continue this process, and he didn't leave, but... so that there would be no resistance, or, let's put it this way, if the resistance would be stronger, more serious, if the authorities would not abandon this idea of ​​theirs, they would try to defend it, you understand, and it would be a clinch, a conflict with the patriotic part of society, yes, they calmed down, no, they then proposed a military inspection of the ukrainian army with the naro with the lpr corps of the so-called, that is , as if you have an army and they have an army, and it almost, almost passed there on some at the stage about... well, let's, by the way, remember that including the so-called disarmament, yes, which, by the way, was also offered to ukraine, and even there some things were allegedly implemented in this regard, not even allegedly, in some areas were implemented, and this was also basically one, was one of these postulates, so to speak, which you

are talking about, but now we are looking at the year 2022, the war has already started, the russian army is already... in the north, already in the east, they are advancing, but the ukrainian leadership continues to work and perceived by the population as legitimate, which protects the country from the enemy, what needs to be done in order for the offensive to be successful, it is necessary to destroy the leadership and destroy the mutual understanding between society and the government, and between the government and the military, so we need some kind of document that will help with this, the whole document is so factually drawn up there that then we could... talk , you see, they gave up ukrainian land, we defended it, blood was spilled, and they gave them crimea, gave them over, agreed that we would not have control over donbas, agreed that russian would be the state language, maybe they specifically for this, they came to the authorities to inspect all, uh, properties of the maidan, that is, they specifically did all this in order

to try to completely destabilize the situation, and in this way... it was easier to reach kyiv, remember that in in the first days of the war , putin appealed to the ukrainian military and we said, let's get rid of this government, you and i will come to an agreement much easier, that was part of this whole plan, it didn't work out, it didn't work out, and then the only thing they could do was create certain information emissions for to destabilize the situation again, and this is still... not the end, the chinese proposals are also part of this trap, but by the way, we will get to that later, after all, here is a clarifying question, whether it was necessary then proceed to conduct negotiations with the russian federation even at a possibly not very official level, let's

talk about those first two months, well , you understand that if russia... was ready for negotiations and they declared , that they are ready to talk and meet, and ukrainian side would say, "no, you know, we're not going to talk to them, no matter how it looks in the eyes of our allies, who generally believe that any conflict should end in negotiations. after those negotiations took place, after when the west saw that the russians did not want anything constructive, the west could say to themselves with a light heart: "yes, we have entered into a long-term conflict, we have to confront russia, we have to help." didn't run out, so what we were told about this by our neighbors in europe, and the united states, listen, they offered you to negotiate. you didn't even listen to what they wanted and you were in a good military position when they stretched the front there, they were there ready to go from the north, and why didn't you talk to them, what would we say, so

no don't talk we couldn't, the question is what to talk about and how to talk, you know, because if you agree to an outcome that creates a small army of you there and doesn't give you any security guarantees, you know demilitarization with neutral status, this is actually a recipe, and you remember that at that time the adviser to the president, the office of the president of ukraine , named oristovych, said that the war started in the first place because we have an article about nato in the constitution, but if if we did not have an article about nato, then of course no one would attack us, because they did not pose any threat to the russian federation, and this was also a political course, which i understand, a huge part of society understood, that maybe we are insulting putin, maybe we somehow don't... we hide his concerns about security, that 's what many in the west still say, you who serve russian political interests, and the fact that somehow russia did not attack finland,

after finland really, you know, really joined nato, because we must always remember that integration into nato, ukraine and georgia is a phantom, no one has even invited us so far, and if there had been no war, no one would have invited, but finland's integration into nato. sweden is a reality, it happened, and then the president called finland, to the president of russia, when finland decided to join nato, and i have the impression that he said, and you know, mr. president, we are joining nato here, and on the other hand, excuse me, why are you calling me anyway, what am i doing here and get involved, that is, it is absolutely obvious that this is not a reason, but an excuse, russia did not do anything at all after joining. finland to nato. the finnish-russian border is longer than the russian-ukrainian border. they didn't even increase the number there by any means troops they didn't build any missile

armies there. this is how the border with nato increased. and the question always arises, why is the border in the east so important than the border in the west. they kept talking about this sub-flight time, remember, the sub-flight time of missiles. that is, if russia allows. for ukraine to be in nato, the flight time of missiles there from kharkov, the flight time of missiles can be found out from stalin, or from the finnish-russian border, what is the flight time of missiles to st. petersburg, in fact it will be even shorter, much, not that much, so, first of all, there are realities, the troops of finland really stood near st. petersburg during the second world war, and here are the ukrainians who will reach belgarid. or kursk, it’s a phantom, and the finnish troops that were on the territory of russia, the soviet union, it’s a historical

fact, then why don’t you get confused by it, at all, from the word at all, and if ukraine will be a member of nato, that’s all already russia needs to buy itself that they are white paws and go to the nearest cemetery, we understand how ... all this is stupid, but i will tell you, in why does it matter where the attack is being prepared, as comrade lukashenko says, because for russia , finland is a real state, it really won this right for itself, and again, it won this right by not only resisting russia, but standing near leningrad, in the second world war, they began to respect it as a subject, and ukraine is not a state at all, but a series of russian regions united in an incomprehensible subjectivity, that's all, and we need to realize this. it seems to me that a huge number of our compatriots simply cannot understand this, and this never could understand, i tried to explain it all the time, understand that people

who lived in soviet russia during the entire existence of the soviet union considered russia itself to be the soviet union, and people who lived in soviet ukraine believed that they were living in soviet union, and most of them, you who lived in the eastern and southern lands of our country, considered even the soviet union their homeland, but they believed that it was ukraine. and not russia, soviet ukraine, but not russia, and this is a completely different formed mentality, there is no way out of this, no one must nurture illusions and believe that the identity of russians in relation to ukraine will change at least during the lifetime of those who watch this program, their children and grandchildren, it will not change, russians, as they believed, still believe and will continue to believe that ukraine is an integral part of the russian state , full stop, it means that we can... do in this situation, only prevent them from taking over this country, there is no other option, can we come to an agreement with them, the answer is negative, no, can we convince them that ukraine is not

russia? no, we can't and we don't have to, because this it is not our task, let them rewrite the history textbooks for themselves, by the way, they are completely falsified and made up, since the time of karamzin, it did not start now, it started during the time of alexey mikhailovich, i apologize, well, so what do we have for the russians simply increase the price of aggression so that they believe that this is russian land, kyiv, kharkiv and odesa are russian cities, russians live there, they should speak there. in russian, but if we go there, we will die, there will be a conflict with the west, a nuclear war, moscow will turn into an image of a novel bulgakov, it will all burn, but if they think like that, by the way, about moscow, nor about belgrad, if belgrade burns, not a single one, i would say, not even a cat in russia will lead the tail, but moscow, oh, here she is, oh, god forbid, don't you let any poppies fall. from this

st. basil's cathedral, which, by the way, was built in honor of the destruction of the cauldron, it is not for nothing that it stands there, but so , by and large, this is our task, we have no other tasks, we have no other way out, some kind of timeline that we can say that will end in the 20s and 30s, we don't know when, the entire life of modern ukrainians and their children may continue in various forms of low intensity. of high intensity, we will join nato, it will end. all these negotiations are just a sham, a sham with the aim of destabilizing ukrainian society and annexing the territory of ukraine to russia. point. and this should be clearly understood. i assume that there will even be some negotiation process. but it will end in success only if russia succeeds in laying these traps in peace agreements. moreover, mr. vitaly, we

must understand that in reality. the matter is far from putin, as some people think, because some people think, conditionally speaking, that the matter is putin, what is here, what is there, in essence, only putin, so to speak, is supposedly the personification of this evil, and i always say , that no, in fact, the matter is far from putin, the matter is russia itself, in the concept of its existence, in the historical roots of its existence, in its imperial and neo-imperial policies, and in fact, putin will be tomorrow. whether or not there is putin tomorrow, the situation is unlikely to change in russia, we must understand that this the system that is there today, it is so, it must either be completely dismantled, that is, this state entity in its current form must be dismantled, or there will be a conditionally new putin, whatever his surname is, well , look, we are historical experience development of russia suggests that the russian government can

be reformatted. but realistically speaking, there may be a moment when russia is faced with its own problems, when it is not interested in the outside world, or does not have the strength to influence it, there is always a window of opportunity, but for us there was a window of opportunity, it is very simple, it was called 1991, 2001 , relatively speaking, from puccio on august 24 , 1991 to the end of the war in the caucasus, this is a window of opportunity, how do we use it? well, except that we declared independence, all subsequent decisions were one after another completely unsuccessful, unsuccessful, we did not become part of the north atlantic alliance, we did not want to get closer to nato, moreover, the vast majority of our compatriots with you were opponents of euro-atlantic integration, even in 2004 the year when yushchenko came to power, when

was already canceled, to be honest, people... were still against it, if in georgia they were in favor, there was also a canceled time, but they were in favor, in our country they were still against it, and we must remember that the prevailing the majority of residents of the cities and towns of eastern ukraine destroyed by russia today voted for pro-russian populist forces for decades, this is a wasted time for the entire nation, and now let's see what our neighbors, whom we now reproach, have done for not helping us enough, precisely in this window of opportunity . central europe and the baltic countries, they joined nato, they joined the european union, they placed western military bases. poland can now say that it is ready to host american nuclear weapons, accordingly, russian provocations in belarus, that is, the european nations lived this window of opportunity as it should have been lived, the ukrainians lived this window of importance absolutely.