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stronger. saturday political club, live broadcast, we are back, and we already have another guest, this is valery chaly, the ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america in 2015-2019. mr. valery. good evening, i greet you, glory to ukraine, good, glory, so let's talk about this publication in dievelt, where in the end they talked about the details of those russian proposals that formed the basis of the agreements in istanbul, so never initialed in both countries, i think it is also important because, just yesterday , oleksandr lukashenko, during his speech at the all-russian people's assembly, said that russia and ukraine should sit down for negotiations. should these agreements become

the framework for the start of consultations? well, it’s already such an impression that we remember the distant past, i ’ll just remind you that how many were there from the civil society of ukraine, from the military in the 22nd year of march-april, how many and what was the reaction to the fact that we found out that something was there is getting ready, i'll tell you, well, me too then i actually wrote a whole 10 questions that the authorities should do so that, relatively speaking, it would not be difficult after a few years, then in principle they made a decree, formed a delegation and issued directives, well, of course, after that, after, i don’t know , why then the authorities were so negatively disposed to the discussion. because, for example, i was simply

instructed to delete them from all channels, by the way, thank you expresso, that it was espressa, the fifth, direct channel, which are now deleted, that they were broadcasting on... obviously i saw not only this first page, even from those press conferences, remember in istanbul, where our participants were, they are there, i will remind you in four voices, each told his story, which surprised me right away, and the composition of this delegation surprised me very much, there there are my former colleagues, diplomats, former student sasha malinovskyi or oleksandr malinovskyi, who is, however, very experienced now. lawyer, oleksandr chaly, whose actual concept of these people, international lawyers, formed the basis, i see, of the preamble of this document, with a false record about the declaration of state sovereignty, which forever determined our neutral status, this story has been going on

for years, and why would it be lying, or directly give the russians this weapon against us, i do not understand, that is why this is such a page where we would have to draw conclusions, because this... the trap behind such a wrapper there was, well, in fact , the disarmament of ukraine and ukraine was made defenseless against everything, well, it is clear that where it led, wasn't it clear, so in principle, i think that this should have already become an example, well, just mistakes that are not necessary to repeat, understanding the basic interests of russia, that is, it... is going to destroy ukraine, and will not give up on it, why count on the same story with a record again, as they did, frankly, in their time, they also believed russia, what about writing a treaty on friendship, partnership, cooperation,

sovereignty is clearly written there, no interference in internal affairs, for this they compromised with russia, they allowed a base in crimea to be there for 20 years, that is... this is russia, russia cannot be trusted , i.e. any, i even i will say more, probably russia is not now this regime non-negotiable, well, that’s for sure, it’s easy to see that they cannot withstand either international agreements or international rules, so on the one hand, firstly, those who will start speaking now, including the participants these, this delegation from the ukrainian side, and some of them remained in their positions, work in important positions in ukraine, and some, well, if the experts who continue the campaign in europe, saying that there was a good chance, well, it is absolutely cynical to say so , because there was no chance putin had and still has completely different goals,

moreover, russia was also on it then, and putin himself did not want it, the appetites were big, that is, all this would not have increased, because it is in its basic design. it is absolutely catastrophically wrong, even if i tell you such a thing, let them tell me how a neutral state, as they wanted to do, a neutral state that renounces its ability to be in collective defense, why should it reduce to 85 thousand armies, why should she shorten and behead herself and make yourself completely defenseless, someone can explain why in collective defense. it is possible to balance something there at the expense of others, in a neutral state, well, this, this, you can only tell some people who do not understand the situation, that is why it is now thrown in, i think for the purpose, well, it was thrown out and published, in order to once again put pressure on ukraine in

the sense that everything is equal, we will have to agree to various capitulation conditions, and that's all, and if this... is played along by the ukrainians, i will once again, just like today, come out and say, that this is a match, they are playing a match for the aggressor, and all these words are said that our men and women are dying, this does not explain their position, because much more will die if this course of events is allowed. mr. valery, you have already rightly said about why such... documents are thrown into the mass media in general, this raises the question: are such initiatives possible now, or in the future from any of the parties, and whether , in principle, conditionally saying, even some western countries, or even russia itself , would be ready to return and promote this one

the agenda, here are such and such, such similar agreements, as we have seen right now in the western press, i will say my subjective point of view, what... appeared recently also through the media, for some reason they called it the erdogan plan or the turkish plan, you remember, but in fact i know, i with... i conducted my own such a small investigation, this is a russian plan, it was imported there in a strange way, well, it is real, it is printed there on paper, and this one is also coming back now, i think that for me this is evidence that russia is groping for some understanding the possibilities, er, she also wants to see somewhere how ukrainian society reacts, how divisive it is? and what layers, that is, in principle, then at that time this plan was rather made, i mean

the istanbul one, or this document, although for the sake of fairness it must be said that it did not reach a normal document, it was only a preparation, although there some signatures are from the ukrainian side, but this is not an internationally legal document, so now and then, and now it is an attempt to play this game again. in undermining the middle of ukrainian society, no more, no less, so it seems to me that russia feels that we do not see that they have serious problems, they see them and start already now and earlier, they start, well, at least to test the situation, i.e. that's about their wish, if, well, i, you know, i don't know what to say about it, because i know ... only one thing, that everything that was possible with russia says in terms of treaties, already the flip

side , reversed with this regime, only force methods, only force means, they can understand, maybe this is an attempt to test in ukraine, so that our partners will be pressured later, well, it seems from what is perceived by a part of the ukrainian society there, you can say so, but i emphasize once again, this will not end. with these kind of agreements, there will be no such thing, that is, everything is the main agreement and everything that will happen after the completion of this stage of the russian-ukrainian, multi-year, perhaps, well, you don’t want to, of course, but rather just a few decades of confrontation, that’s all, well, this large-scale, this part may end without any agreements, it may end with what will be recorded in the war and... on land and in other parts. but even in this develt publication it is said that russia then began

to make additional demands on ukraine, which could not be accepted by any means. so there, to declare russian the second state language, something like that. it seems that they are trying all the time to make the document destabilizing to such an extent that they can guarantee themselves chaos. and they don't even hide it. they even, i would say, don't have enough patience to to do it somehow, he said. how is it be careful to say whether there is a real agreement with the creation of some illusion, this is also interesting, well, it was written right there why the negotiators were happy, why they were happy, i don’t know if they were all, but oleksandr chaly said, my namesake, we have achieved that russia has accepted, i will carefully say, as he said,

they will not... you, well, you are sitting in your house, well, yes, you now molotov cocktails are thrown at your windows from all sides, something hits, something is deflected, you are somehow still protected, and you are offered simply, in general. open the walls, destroy, leave the glass walls, give everything you had in your hands, you are sitting with your family, and then they say to you, come to this window, yes, come on, take off your pants, give it to us, no, i i don't want, no, no, no, take it off, take it off, now i'll break the glass, then they'll approach, and come on, come on, that's all, that's what russia is trying to achieve, control over ukraine, that yes, that otherwise, no right, no... none, but from the moment of such so-called agreements, everything is immediately removed, and

sanctions are removed, the process is reversed, that is, it is a trap, it is obvious that it is a trap , and the fact that they insert all kinds of moments there every time, well, this really proves that, i confirm once again, that this is one of the tools, well, maybe a wide one, there was already such an informational and psychological operation, or is it now a part of it? we will see a wide operation, additional agents should rise in europe or in ukraine, it should is being promoted from the point of view, well, look, well, so there was an opportunity to miss. styles, and now we must not miss it, so ukrainian sons and daughters will continue to die, this will now be epso, this is pure epso, which does not lead to anything in practice, because at the same time the russians are doing completely different, completely different things , well, i just remembered how in 2004, a long, long time ago, so to speak, when there was yanukovych’s election campaign and

also, they confidently led him to victory there, then in his moscow headquarters at a meeting the then... this is the speaker of the state duma, lyubov slyzka, they said that how are we helping him, he is not doing anything pleasant for us, let's write in his program that he should declare the russian language the state language in ukraine, and they, as you remember you see, they did it, he made such a statement, that is, 20 years have passed, 20 years, and they have the impression that they are some kind of androids, nothing changes, the same tape scrolls in them all the time, mr. vitali , this, unfortunately,... sits deep, i would say, myself faced with this, it surprised me when even in negotiations with the russians, they could easily lie, could set you up, i was convinced of this a long time ago, they have their own, well, this style dates back to soviet times,

and in principle, in contrast to of ukrainian diplomacy there, this style of negotiating practice is tolerated even further in... this soviet-russian myth, well, not only that, that is, in principle, i will tell you one more thing, they themselves sometimes cannot react correctly, that is, putin already reminded several times about this one, well, you can't name it contract, there is a project, maybe a document, there is an agreement about neutrality, guarantees without... and that is what it is called, and he has already shown it several times, that is, he is confused, confused by this situation, i think that he is also in his time, apparently, the appetite was high, great, he did not even accept medinsky, who was from the russian side, right away in the office, and he was very disappointed, because he went there, walked, thought, he was doing a great mission, and this , by

the way, evidence that it was just one of the maneuvers, he thought so, even that one medynsky did not understand this and... and it was clear then, right after the negotiations, after the 15th of april, when, by the way, the negotiations continued, and this is also strange, because they continued after buchi, and they continued, what did the negotiators from the ukrainian side count on, what did they count on, that russia would suddenly change, putin would stand there together with patrushev or peskov, they would immediately become angels, what can you count on? i don't understand this, here you need to strengthen your position as much as possible at the expense of partners, at the expense of weapons, the production of weapons, that is, it must be done, well, the official position in our country is actually the same, the official position is already there, but i will remind you again, first, this is an example for us, first, a normal discussion must take place in the country as well, so that putin does not take advantage about

the distribution of ibso, there should be a discussion, and i remember when it was there at that moment... march, everyone who expressed some kind of criticism, everyone was simply, well, pressured from all sides, that is , journalists, experts, then through the president of ukraine has been talking about it for two months, volodymyr zelenskyi, everything is fine, i'm sorry, but those journalists, where are they, where are they, where are they going to stick their eyes at that moment, who were there, what they banned, censored , it's up to them. on the air, but precisely, these people who were wrong, they put on the air, carrying out propaganda, you know, we also, thank god, that we united and did not miss this blow, because i am afraid that kyiv would then was already russian after this, the 22nd year of this temporary compromise, that is

, you can show it all on your fingers, so you don’t have to on the one hand, on the other hand, this is all hypothetical, let's turn the page from the point of view of these plans, from the point of view of working on mistakes and how not to negotiate, i think that this should be kept in mind somewhere, so that you can't negotiate with russia like that, you can fall into a trap, and what is happening now, again, well, actually the negotiating group has not changed, it is the same, the president did not change the decree, the same group is there. i see that some of the members of this group go to various world summits, well in particular, oleksandr chaly saw india there. was, that is, i don’t understand, this whole story continues in the same context, we have the same approach, how can we keep the same approach and at the same time

now call for the invitation of ukraine to nato, somehow we need to clarify the situation, i think , the time has come to do something even with this decree, it has exhausted itself in my opinion at this point, because it is very strange that it remains... so please, those who are involved in this, offer this decree to the president now to stop, because he has already played his part. thank you, thank you, for your valid opinions and your rhetorical questions, including valery chalyliy, the ambassador of ukraine to the united states of america in 2015-2019 was in direct contact with us, and we already have one more guest, this igor semy. director of the center for middle eastern studies. mr. igor, good evening. good evening, congratulations, colleagues. congratulations well, so, you know, there was a deadline for the last chinese warning, and now

i have the impression that there is a deadline for the last american warning to china, well, also for by and large the last chinese advance. and here we see, the secretary of state of the united states in beijing says quite strictly that if the chinese do not create real opportunities for the termination of military-technical cooperation with the russians. federation, then washington himself will do it, a serious conversation, at the same time with the minister of defense of the russian federation of the people 's republic of china, they meet in astana, absolutely confidently, shake hands, talk about strategic partnership, talk about military ties of both countries, there is not even hint that xizen ping is going to listen to blinken, because i think we understand that if that were the case, then obviously china would not go to the... that at the same time as the us secretary of state is in beijing, the secretary of defense china would shake hands with a shaygu in a vastan. well, at least two considerations: the first consideration is that the words

have been said, now washington has to answer for them. i think blinken is a fairly important figure in the american hierarchy, and therefore, accordingly, we should now watch our hands and understand. what steps can to carry out the united states of america in order to prevent such a development of events? of course, i can imagine that they will say that it did not happen, or at least they will deny it, or at least they will delay it, that is, this fact is also known and you can make a good mine with a bad game, but it will undermine, seriously undermine the american position. closely follows the words of blinken, according to the americans, europe has its own interests in china, well , take the same macron, and therefore it is obvious

that they cannot simply if they do not respond to these, on these statements and on this, these wishes, yes washington, this is the first, second, the chinese in turn also declared that if... the united states of america crosses the red lines, then accordingly there will be ay-yy-yy. and this rather resembles the very first chinese warning. but again , no one has drawn these red lines, no one knows the specific red lines and what they are. well, obviously, these are already concrete steps that will be directed against chinese banks, the chinese payment system, or something like that. well, as an option. you can consider, of course, the malava strait, at one time the americans conducted such an experiment in the early 2000s, when the malava strait could be closed, and essentially all

chinese exports stop in the china, south china sea. so, there may be a lot of debate around this, but the words have been said, i think now we have to watch the actions of washington and beijing. i would like to talk to you. about the next so-called stage of relations between russia and iran, a new level of relations, official representatives said of these two states, talking about the actual deepening of military cooperation, what could it be and how does it threaten our state? well, first of all, of course, everyone is concerned about the delivery of aircraft, yes, that is, we understand that the story with the delivery of these aircraft has been delayed. at least for a year. it is said that one of the key reasons why the russians delayed the delivery of the aircraft, even though it was an agreement and it seems that money was allocated for it,

is that ... there are agreements between russia and israel, and accordingly this parity, which involves non-delivery offensive weapon, su-35, of course, this is an offensive weapon, of iran, accordingly, israel does not support ukraine, if this story somehow changes, we will also see in the near future, because now there is a lot of information on this. subject, and the iranians will definitely tell about it, that is, they will not keep it a secret, then the relations between israel and russia should change accordingly, they may or may not change, that is, in this case may refer to another agreement that the russians turn a blind eye to israeli planes flying over the territory of syria, that is, when they

strike iranian positions. or according to the position of hizballah or others about iranian corps groups on the territory of this country, that is, in this case, regarding the very fact of deepening cooperation, well, it is obvious that this was also quite predicted, taking into account the fact that the rapprochement of iran and russia is inevitable against the background war in ... russia in ukraine and against the background of, essentially, a hybrid war between israel and iran. and in this case, we can probably say that it remains there only small things so that a proper pact could be concluded between these two countries, which could fix a new level of relations. and in principle, if we talk about

these. relations at the level of resistance to the west, we can say that there is such tripartite coordination at the level of iran, china, russia, because there are joint military exercises, but joint political coordination is at the level of tehran, beijing, moscow? i think it exists, and maybe it is not, well, not recorded, obviously, obviously, that is, so that we can already talk about a real pact, but coordination without doubt exists, well, at least at the level of consultations. it is safe to say that such consultations are taking place. what is happening now on the turkish-american tretka. recep tayyip erdoğan recently met with ismail haniyeh, the leader of hamas, which was quite a demonstration meeting, i would say, and with that erdoğan did not go to the united states. there is no official explanation for this, but it is said to be an attempt to protest, at least publicly, against the vote

of the us congress. by selection aid to israel, we are focused here on aid to ukraine, but we understand that aid to israel is also a very important political factor, so without a doubt, i think that, well, at least that's how it is interpreted, not the trip, in the turkish press, in the arab press, that is, they emphasize that one of the key reasons is the vote, the vote for aid to israel and... the veto on palestine, on the creation of a state in the un security council. that is, we can actually state that turkey is now de facto, if it took the side of those states that are now fighting with israel, in that case, what place do you see turkey in the next time, is it

just... some kind of political demonstration, no, turkey is not fighting with israel, this is an exaggeration, turkey is showing its position, this position remains the same for a long time, and in fact, the entire time of, say, netanyahu's government, or the greater part of uryu netanyahu's, we have seen exactly this turkish position, well, worse. relations took place, you know, a long time ago, that is, back in the zero years, when the israelis attacked the turkish ship, and therefore there is nothing new here, yes, this is a position, a position accepted by the majority of the turkish population, and actually erdogan is quite comfortable with this position, the fact that others, well...