what does it mean? therefore, the question of evacuating those people who were in the greatest danger was delayed, moreover, all the people of kyiv already remember this story, because it all happened on the eve of may 1, well , of course, the leadership of the communist party of ukraine could not refuse the may day demonstration , that is, it would be considered, probably, some kind of great sacrilege, and we have in the documents interesting measurements... of the state of affairs in kyiv as of just at noon, when the children went out to the khreshtak during this parade, we can see just the peak of this threat to those people, but nevertheless this did not deter the leadership of the communist party, because in fact they believed that everything should happen as it happened and that any extraordinary steps, any unexpected... steps, well, they

threaten just their system, that is, it was just, you know, such a vivid manifestation of an already dying system, which is afraid of any steps, even to save itself, and in the end, i think that just this, that what happened then at the chernobyl accident, this completely failed attempt to cover it up scale, it became such an earthquake that started cracking throughout the system and led to its collapse. after the orange revolution, and then after the revolution of dignity, in fact, ukrainians began to gain access to the archives of the kgb, to those materials that were, unfortunately, inaccessible before, and which shed light on the chernobyl disaster. a lot appeared, including scientific works, your articles appeared, so to speak, which formed the basis of research later. chernobyl

disaster, was under the auspices, under the auspices the ukrainian institute of national remembrance published these archives, one of the books was published, which contained a lot of information, which i read even in 2019, please tell me why until now , before 2004, and then and during yanukovych's time, they essentially tried to hide information about the chernobyl disaster? because, for example, khoroshkovsky, the then head of the security service of ukraine under yanukovych, he removed it from the website of the service, and under yushchenko we remember that for the first time archives were opened, for the first time people received access, scientists got access, why even yanukovych's government tried to hide this information, i think that they hid not so much information about chernobyl, about the consequences of chernobyl, the consequences. disaster,

because, uh, it was already more or less known, in particular from some foreign publications, they were hiding kgb documents, because they were documents that contained information about hidden information, about methods of hiding information, that is, it was more important for them , and the methods by which some people are discredited, who provide information, the methods of uh trying to invent some fake uh... news, how journalists were brought in from abroad, initially journalists of communist publications there from western europe, who wrote that nothing bad actually happened, everything is fine, then even journalists from western publications, who were sponsored by some nuclear plants in the west, who wanted there to be less panic, and let's still say that nothing terrible happened, that the panic was exaggerated, let's extinguish this lady, so it seems to me that precisely in the times of independent ukraine, especially in the times

of yanukovych, they were more embarrassed by this, more embarrassed that ukrainians did not see, did not understand these methods, these techniques, because these methods and the representatives of this government also wanted to use the techniques very actively, i remember very well how in 2008, when i was the curator of the archive of the security service of ukraine, how much resistance there was even within the system of the security service of ukraine, the essence of this resistance was that we... . we cannot expose the methods of communist action special services, because they can be useful, can be used everyday, it just shocked me at the time, because as a historian i knew very well what the methods of operation of the communist special services were, and it is obvious that something similar can and should be used in an independent to ukraine, it is an automatic recognition that ukraine is definitely far from a democratic state and is not going to move in the direction of some european and democratic state, that's why. er

, one of the first steps of the new government in 2010 , headed by yanukovych, the new head of the service khoroshkovsky, and there was an attempt to drive them back again. this information of this genie in a bottle, to close these archives again, literally the first press conference of valery khoroshkovsky, at which the thesis was sounded that all the truth that needed to be discovered, we have already discovered it, that's enough, and then the systemic work began, not just stopping after the further opening of the archive, then its closure, a special commission was created, which reclassified documents, including documents related to the chernobyl disaster, so i am very glad that after worthy of the victory of the revolution. we still managed to complete this work, we prepared, as the ukrainian institute of national memory , a whole package of laws on decommunization, one of them precisely related to the opening of the kgb archives, they were adopted in 2015, and the actual book you are talking about this is the book chernobyl dossier of two volumes of kgb documents, which was

published with the cooperation of the archives of the security service of ukraine and the ukrainian institute of national remembrance, these are wonderful documents, of which, for me personally, the most interesting there are just those documents. not only tell about what happened before the accident, what happened during the accident, but what happened after the accident, that is, how the communist special services purposefully tried to restrain the spread of information and, on the contrary, launch some fakes about the fact that nothing terrible was actually happened very often, by the way, the methods that mr. volodymyr talks about, the actual concealment of information, are paralleled with... similar ones during the three holodomors by the soviet regime, for example, in one of the articles, one of your articles about chornobyl, to be more precise , is called first information radiation and then, so you actually

analyzed in detail the extent to which this information blockade took place, i.e. the extent to which kgb agents were actually operating in every city, in every village, in every street... on every street , who collected information and tried to ensure that it spread among society, and by the way, this happened not only, relatively speaking, a month, two or three after the chernobyl disaster, it happened systematically during the following years until the collapse of the soviet union, firstly, is it correct that we are talking about parallels with the holodomors. absolutely, and yet, if we say so, did the soviet union, for example, use foreign journalists or foreign specialists in order to hide this

information about the consequences of the chernobyl disaster, the methodologies are actually absolutely similar, that is, this is the essence of them reduced to two goals, one is to restrain the spread of the truth. information, the second is to direct information in the direction necessary for the regime, i.e. to fill it with all kinds of fakes and disinformation, the only difference is that when we talk about the holodomor, it happened in a completely totalitarian state, which had just been formed, which was completely controlled, all manifestations of the lives of citizens were controlled authorities, when we talk about chernobyl, it is still very late. the soviet union is covered with cracks, covered with some initiatives even from the very top by mikhail gorbachev about democratization glasnost and so on, so these technologies, which worked, worked effectively in containing the truth about the holodomor, in

the widespread lies about the holodomor, in the issue of the chernobyl accident, they were also used, but they simply did not work effectively, so there were cases when journal specifically to show that there is no real threat, i.e. that people can return, that it will be possible to live here, but again, this is still the period of 1986, the period when the soviet power was also weaker , and opportunities to receive any information in ukraine, even from the west, the same radio, the same so-called enemy voices of radio liberty. america's voice was significantly greater, it was not in the 30s, and in the end, despite the colossal resources and efforts that the communist government threw at spreading the truth, stopping the spread of true information, spreading fakes, they did not work , and if back

in 1987 we have kgb documents that speak of successful attempts to interfere with some rallies that were being prepared for the anniversary, chernobyl the accident in 1987 various activists failed, then in 1988 the kgb failed, in 1988 the first rally unauthorized by the soviet authorities was held to... the anniversary of the second anniversary of the second anniversary of the chernobyl accident, and it is very symbolic that what in fact, this event became one of the first such manifestations of democracy already in ukraine, why did this happen, why did this environmental topic, the topic of the disaster, become such a powerful stream for many people to reject their soviet identity, because it became clear that the government was lying, it became clear that... lies can simply kill, and it became clear that this is such a conditional social

contract that was in the soviet union that, well, we give you our freedom, you take away our freedom, but in return you give us some the feeling of security, that it is violated by the authorities, that the people who put up with the fact that they do not have freedom of access to information, but believed the authorities and did what the authorities said, they suffered the most. they were the ones who were sure nothing bad had happened, they were the ones who they thought that the authorities would protect them, and actually this did not happen, these people suffered, and this, and this became a terrible blow for many residents of then still soviet ukraine, who understood, well, what a world of lies, what dangerous lies they live in, and these first rallies since 1988 led to the appearance of russia in opposition to the soviet government. ecological component, moreover, these were exclusively political, that is, some dissidents, former political prisoners, but the appearance in

this narrative of the struggle against the soviet government, the environmental movement, gave it a very powerful push forward and brought it to the world level, because the world began to talk about the trouble that happened in ukraine, because the trouble that happened in ukraine began to be talked about by ukrainians far beyond outside of ukraine in order to remind once again that this disaster happened precisely because... ukrainians do not have their own state, this disaster happened because there is a totalitarian soviet occupation government. yes, ukraine is actually occupied. and here is a very interesting thing, we come to the fact that the chernobyl disaster became such a trigger for the collapse of the soviet union. you agree with this thesis. of course, without diminishing the actions of, for example, our dissidents, the sixties, the liberation movement, we are no less. we do not exaggerate, but we must understand that the movements, these political movements, dissidents, participants in the national

democratic movement, just like most political movements, well, they were not mass, that is, they were people, intellectuals, and they gathered around themselves, actually , rather such people are intellectually prepared and ready to some such radical steps, because they perfectly understood that, what it means for them, instead, the chernobyl disaster mobilized. many more people, she pushed to protest against the government, which betrayed and lied to them, ordinary people who probably would never have specifically joined any political processes, so she really added to this anti-soviet national-democratic movement the mass of which which had not been in this movement before, he was only gaining momentum and it was this push that gave him a lot, gave him the opportunity to reach another level. in one of your lectures, you called this catastrophe named after

lenin, or rather, even your lecture was called the chernobyl disaster named after lenin. please explain this name, why did you mark it like that? well, first of all, the official name of the chernobyl nuclear power plant itself is the volodymyrovich lenin chernobyl nuclear power plant, that is, it was normal in the soviet union to call everything after lenin. if we are talking about why the catastrophe named after lenin, then because probably, if you look very deeply into the roots of this catastrophe, then they begin with lenin, that is, this person who created this system, a totalitarian system, this communist regime, the logical consequence of which was this accident, which, which could not be avoided, as we said at the beginning of our conversation, given the way the construction of this power plant was approached and the consequences of this accident, that is, they are also a logical consequence of this system created by vladimir lenin. a completely closed system that did not foresee more than just some kind of distribution information, which for a long time was

closed even to some help from the outside, that is, for a long time the soviet union rejected any support from the capitalist and harmful, supposedly for its people, west, and believing that it could cope with this problem by itself, in the end after all, as time has shown, no, not the soviet union. did not cope with this problem either from the point of view of politics or from the point of view of ecology, and only the fact that this problem has already begun to be solved at the world level made it possible. at least partially overcome consequences of this disaster. as a historian and a public figure, you devoted a lot of time and years to rethinking the narratives and views on the chernobyl disaster and on the date of commemoration of the victims of the chernobyl disaster. how should we perceive this particular

date, this catastrophe, this... terrible event in the history of mankind over the years, because in the 90s we perceived one thing, in the 2000s we perceived another, and today already during the times of the great war, including the occupation of one of the nuclear power plants rashists, how to perceive it today, how to present the correct narrative to society, what it is, how it is, how to explain to people, including future generations, i think. as one of the, unfortunately, natural consequences of the functioning of the totalitarian system in ukraine, this is no accident, that is, it is the result of all this systemic work, and as an example of what can happen to people in a system that absolutely neglects people, and you

absolutely rightly reminded and about the fact that even now one of the nuclear power plants, unfortunately, is under the russian occupier... this is very serious warning, because, as history shows, these people do not count on human lives, and it is extremely important for us, talking about the chernobyl disaster of 1986, to warn the world against the one in whose hands such a powerful and threatening mechanism as nuclear power plant, and why should the whole world unite now in order to make... you so that chernobyl never happens again, because as long as there are russians, russian troops, russian authorities, guarantees that chernobyl will not happen again , unfortunately, there is no. we are with you they mentioned the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, now it hurts many people, all of us, because we do not know what can happen at any moment, in fact, this is the attitude

of the russians towards the situation at... zaporizhzhia nuclear power plants, attitude towards people, who work there, in general, the absolutely negligent, negligent attitude and constant provocations that they carry out, this can be considered as a certain succession even here in russia in relation to the soviet union, absolutely, among the materials that we published, it is obvious the material of the investigation into the causes of the accident that occurred on april 26, 1986. and in the end all possible theories about some kind of terrorist attacks and so on were rejected and came to a simple but very specific conclusion that the accident was the result of the negligence of the employees, the result of a completely careless culture, there is even such a word used, which prevailed among the workers who believed it is possible to do some things that

eventually led to an accident, what is happening now, unfortunately, at the zaporizhzhia power plant. it is also obvious that language it is about the same culture, but unfortunately, the situation may in some respects be more dangerous, because, as we saw, after the explosion of the kakhovskaya hydroelectric power station, the russians are ready to use even such objects of civil infrastructure as weapons, mass destruction, in quality as just a tool for their terrorism, so the situation here is in some respects even worse than chernobyl and... and in conclusion, what should we do to the ukrainians, the ukrainian state, the authorities, in order to explain the event to the world community, but it is necessary to explain that connection between by what is happening now and by those events that took place in the soviet past, because unfortunately, in the west very often soviet

history is considered, was considered and to a large extent is considered exclusively through the prism of russians. some kind of academic glasses, we need to help our western academic environments to get rid of those soviet academic glasses, and it seems to me that this is one of our missions, and for this we need very systematic informational support from the ukrainian state, i am very sorry that in such an important for the country at the moment, we have essentially no foreign language, that is , we have some poor freedom houses, which first spoke russian, now ukrainian. but nevertheless, who definitely do not speak english, who definitely do not bring the necessary information about ukraine to the world, and do not convey a lot of pro-ukrainian narratives, from the ukrainian point of view. look east, mr. volodymyr, i am extremely grateful to you for this conversation, regardless of how many years may pass since

the chernobyl disaster, since april 26 , 1986, we must remember, we must understand why this happened, and we must take into account all the experience and all the problems we had in the past, in order not to repeat... mistakes in the present and most importantly in the future. thank you. there are discounts on evrofast softcaps of 10% in psyllium pam and oskad pharmacies. there are discounts for visa. 20% in psarynyk, bam and oskad pharmacies. gasoline trimmers are so heavy, loud and inconvenient, but if you want to have a beautiful, well-kept plot, there is a solution: kors garden trimmers from unpack tv, order in time at

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stronger together. let's summarize today's morning: the advance of russian troops to the west of avdiivka. this is what british intelligence is talking about now, they say that in fact for the last two months there, this is the main area of ​​russian operations. today, let me remind you, is the 21st rammstein, it was exactly two years ago. the first meeting in this format, we are waiting to see what will be decided today at this meeting, the united states of america also has to announce aid in the amount of 6 billion dollars, this is exactly the package that should be announced today. in the meantime, the ukrainian authorities are trying to bring back ukrainians from abroad, so that men, men who are conscripted to the military come to the

tcc in order to clarify their data. to complete all the procedures within a specified time, so as not to expose oneself to, for example, any restrictions, deprivation of the ability to drive a car and similar things, and by the way, the council adopted of the law on the law that now employees at enterprises can be fired if, for example, they do not report that they have contacts or relatives with persons who are temporarily under the control of russia, in the occupied territories, this is how we saw this morning, goodbye with you until tomorrow, a peaceful, safe day for you, take care, and now at 12:00 we will honor the memory of the dead liquidators and victims of the man-made disaster at the chornobyl nuclear power plant with a minute of silence. let me remind you that this tragedy on april 26, 1986 was caused by the soviet

power, and today it are fighting against us. moment of silence