the reorientation from paris to china, cultural, financial and so on, is not a quick or painless process for those who today are in charge of large parts of the russian economy, so yes, the situation is not as panicky as it was in march, april 22- th year, when it was believed that everything was lost, but the situation is medium-term, long-term. how do you generally feel about what is happening in connection with the russian-ukrainian war in the west, both from the point of view of assessing its challenges and from the point of view of assessing the danger to the west itself, to what extent the west takes into account the lessons of the past, when the war in ukraine always seemed like such a periphery of the interests of the civilized world, one of the things. for me personally

, the beginning of a large-scale war was connected with the fact that i hoped that someone in the world, west, east, north, south, someone learns from history, someone, someone uses these, these lessons, what i understood today, that the lessons work in the sense that they have become, well, let's say, have been a part of... the experience of this generation, this generation that is in power. history lessons even of the cold war - these are the same as the lessons of some, that is, the punic wars, this, this, this is a deep history, the leaders of society as a whole do not learn from them. what happened in europe, if we talk about this part of the event, after the 22nd year, this, this personification is not.

the historically determined threat associated with hitler, associated with the experience of the second world war, and the very real threat posed by russia. and we would not have learned about this if we had not begun, so to speak, to load the united states of america in congress, in particular. and here it appeared that europe took a step forward and for a while became a leader in this anti-putin, anti-russian coalition. and they began to speak in a voice that before that only the poles spoke, or only the representatives of the baltic states spoke, that is , macron’s statements came from there, from there, from there, the instruction in general, including the financial instruction of germany, that is, the last very dramatic six months, very uncertain six months actually opened for us a new new europe, so that europe learns, just like... the united states, but

only learns from its own mistakes, but from the other side now many people are killed, well, there is help, ukraine will need it there for a year, maybe even more, but what will happen in a year, if we are talking about a long-term war, how can we hope that the congress, the new congress, the congress after the by-elections, that the president, if there is a new president, will they be as ready to approve aid to ukraine as they have done now? er, well, you have to, you have to hope and work on it, er, chances are good, because er, one of the reasons, maybe the main reason why er - this aid and this law, stuck in congress, was due to the fact that, uh, uh, the republicans, who are formally the majority, are actually, an extremely shaky majority. and well

, we saw it, that's how they voted, but i think we 've lost communication now, i hope we 'll fix it now with mr. serhiy plokhi, and now we'll break for literally a couple of minutes, which is this bakhmut? bahmud is a place of fear and a place of bravery, no matter what anyone says, but bravery is not the absence of fear. bahmud is an adventure that will stay with us until the end. our days. children are born in the era of independence. who are they? there are many of them, and they are strong and brave, they are the guardians of the traditions and martial arts of their ancestors. this is a boy. who never cry, lemberk,

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there is a liver? hello hulk, what about the bile? alohol, it protects the liver and gall bladder. alohol with care and respect for the liver and gallbladder. premium sponsor of the national team presents: united by football, stronger together! continuing our conversation with the historian sergii plochii, mr. sergii, my point was that any ... other congress in which either the republicans or the democrats have a solid majority would behave differently, so that's what my more an optimistic view of the future, but of course, this future will depend on

many factors, and i think that ukraine should work very seriously with both parties, and in this, in this case, i will leave. optimistic about the continued support of the united states of america? well, maybe we should just take a closer look at the american political traditions, because there is a willingness to help, but not to participate, and isolationism, and along with this, a willingness to participate in the challenges, which, by the way, speaker mike johnson spoke about before the vote, that he is an ipoh reagan republican, all these traditions have, i would say, deep roots. american history, certainly, and from this point of view, the position held by quite a large number of republicans, and at some stage democrats, the position of isolationism, it defined american politics during

the 20s and 30s, americans and american president woodrow wilson was key author, architect of the league of nations. but having created this institution, the united states of america never joined it, and then pel was needed harbor and the japanese attack on the united states of america in order to change, to change this trend, to change this tradition that existed, but it still exists today, so all of these, all of these are very real things that have to be really taken into account and with which must be worked on. to what extent do you think ukrainian society today understands all the serious challenges associated with this war, in particular the globalization of the conflict, the fact that many countries and societies are beginning to get tired of the war, that russian propaganda is trying to use all this fatigue and all these

fears for their own needs. i think that today ukrainian society assesses the situation much more realistically. including the world situation, i can say that it is night and day compared to this euphoria, very often based on ignorance of the realities that existed. in ukraine even at the beginning of autumn last year, at the end of august, at the beginning of september , i gave an interview to one of the magazines in ukraine, and this interview was published only in november, and i was told that just at the beginning of september, the ukrainian the reader from their point of view was not ready for such an interview to appear, so... which is very expensive, but what happens is actually this correlation between ukrainian

hopes and the realities around us, so that today they are more realistic than they were six months ago, but what is it, by the way, it’s interesting. i won’t be a ukrainian reader, i wasn’t ready, but i’m used to the fact that politicians want to talk to ukrainians, as if they were small children who simply don’t turn their heads, so to speak, and live by emotions, and now i see that my colleagues also believe that somewhere for something... the audience is not ready, the audience is ready for something, it is not necessary to scare it, it is necessary for it to live in illusions and not to fool itself and the editorial staff, well, i would like to say that i cooperate very fruitfully with your colleagues, they, they want the best, but there was a really, really big problem. perhaps during the last year, it is so, so much the building

of these, these aspirations, these, these, unrealistic hopes, that in the end it hit very, very painfully, that is, disappointment, the disappointment was, was very serious, and maybe today, i think we have a different, have chosen a different tone, i hope that... this realistic tone should continue and will continue. and tell me, please, can we find examples in history when society tried to live by self-suggestion at such critical moments for their existence. when it was, where can you find it, maybe i don't know, maybe flavia, i don't know, there it is in the jewish war, i'm just trying to remember, well, from one. side it is necessary to recognize certain realities, that the fact that

ukraine, and we, i personally heard at the beginning of this war that it is necessary to hold out for a week or two, and everything, and everything will get better, this in the end played a positive role, that is, in after all, we don't, we put the patient on the table, the operating table without ob'. and it is precisely this psychological, psychological atmosphere that is created, it is very important, partly because of this, american or other observers cannot really assess to what extent this or that country will create resistance or not, whether the afghan army will fight, whether it will disperse overnight, will ukraine... resist, will president zelensky create, create a cabinet in exile, in

london or in warsaw, as he was proposed, so this is a complex, complex thing and a complex problem, relative to illusions , which help other and any countries to survive, i would point to most of the wars that have been fought. took place in the world in the 20th century, because most of the wars were just wars between countries that were just being created, fighting for their independence and great powers, whether it was the united states of america or the soviet union, you can talk about vietnam, you can talk about afghanistan and so on. these countries had no chance to stand against the superpowers, but there was... a corresponding psychological attitude, which from our point of view was completely unrealistic, which

helped to stand, and ukraine in this sense fits exactly into this, in this context. those who thought realistically in march or april of the 22nd year turned out to be, well, actually, from today's point of view, those who sowed some lady. who were, therefore, defeatists such, and those who thought unrealistically, turned out to be the winners, and ukraine won. and so we are not the first, we are not the first to find ourselves in this situation, but this is a very , very delicate matter, where it is important not to overdose on this, this unreasonable optimism. i would like to talk about the very concept of victory, because now many people

say that the concept of victory, relatively speaking, in ukraine, the concept of even victory in russia, the concept of victory in the west, are different concepts. victory in terms of a culture of victory if want to, because both russia and ukraine, they were brought up in soviet times on this concept of comprehensive victory, when the winner gets everything, this is by and large a myth of the second world war, which for the west has long since become less relevant, but remained relevant for the soviet and post-soviet societies, and the west sees under victory, if you will, comfortable conditions for the winning country, the conditions of transition with the country that concedes. and for moscow or kyiv , victory is when you achieve your goals, which you set before yourself at the beginning campaign the idea of ​​victory depends not only on the country, it also depends on the time and ideas in which the war takes place. and it can

change depending on how the war, how the war moves. i can say... that the basic basis of victory may be that ukraine achieves the goals or does not allow russia to achieve the goals that it wanted to achieve, that is , ukraine survives as an independent state, not a bantustan that is dependent, dependent on of russia, and can protect this independence and... to ensure economic, economic development, borders are an extremely important thing, and, but discussions, disputes, war for borders, can continue to last not only for years, decades. today, there is no peace agreement between russia and japan because of the kuril

islands. that is, this question is postponed for consideration. but what cannot be postponed in time by a state that would think and believe about its victory is, of course, the preservation of its political system, the preservation of its independence and the possibility of providing for its population, economically, culturally, and on other levels for me, this means that the victory for ukraine should... be determined today not within the framework of borders, but within the framework of the ability to protect these fundamental things that i spoke about. the only way to protect it in the long term, not for six months, not for a year, not for a year and a half, in the long term, is the integration of ukraine in the security, economic,

political and cultural space, which is defined by such organizations as nato and such organizations as the european union. so, is it important to go to the borders of 1991? year definitely. i believe that any other long-term solution cannot be made at the expense of this, these fundamental things. but if we talk about medium-term prospects, i bet. would first of all protect our sovereignty, freedom, elections within the framework of western structures, both security and economic. how realistic is it that the west will one day agree to the euro-atlantic integration of ukraine not declaratively, but in such a way that this famous fifth article operates on the territory of our country. we

have heard the words of president biden, that ukraine's victory is a condition for ukraine's accession to nato. and again, not a specific victory, but the kind of victory that is seen in the west. i have already mentioned that the great powers have not won a single major war in the last, last 100 years, if we talk about wars with smaller, less prepared, less economically and militarily strong countries, and at the end of the day the west, the west reacts to that . that the reflection takes place outside the borders of the west, great powers react to changes in the world, and because of this they continue to be great powers, due to the fact that they are adequate. evaluate the realities, no one foresaw the possibility of the baltic countries joining nato, but there

was a will on the part of the political elites and the majority of the voters of these countries, and the moment came when it became also acceptable for the event, in the end it was even profitable, that is, it is very important to know , which is our goal. what is ours, our agenda not only for one day, for and for one year, for several decades, and that's when things happen if we change our orientations, every day, not only every day, but we it was done before, but even every five years, well, then things might happen, but they're more likely not to happen, so it's a long-term... thing, reformatting the world map, and in the end, whoever wins who has the most patience and the most

ability to maintain focus and mobilize resources to achieve the first goal, a specific goal. in your opinion, when we talk about ukrainian statehood, it is worth taking into account the experience of the ukrainian people's republic, the ukrainian state 2000. 918-1920 years. of course, experience, experience must be used. the main experience for me, that is, everyone looks at events from a different perspective, can take different, different lessons, so to speak, from this, but the most important thing for me was that political forces, ukrainian political forces. fought with each other, that is, in ukraine , a civil war between representatives of different political parties was also taking place.

the result was that each of these political parties lost. and this unity is the main lesson for me today would be most important for ukraine. well, but unity should not just be declared, but if you want to be institutionalized , this institutionalized unity is still quite far away. it seems to me that unity, unity must be such that it works and is able to preserve the space in which further political struggle would take place . would be possible, would be real, and if unity does not meet these criteria, then it simply does not exist, it does not mean that it will never exist, it means that it must be worked on responsibly, and this is a call to all parties at this moment of the dialogue, because if this dialogue between the parties turns into a multilateral conflict,

then we have lost, then you can forget about any definition of victory, geographical, political, temporal, any. well, you and i are talking about the fifth anniversary of the second round of the presidential elections in ukraine, the last elections to date, and then it seemed that it was so profound. between the supporters of the new president volodymyr zelenskyi and the supporters of his predecessor petro poroshenko, the year 2022 was supposed to level these disagreements, but after 5 years we are again in a situation where a large part of society does not understand otherwise, and in fact people have a completely different idea of ​​what the state should look like after the war? er, of course, what is most important, er... is that through blood, great trials, ukraine has emerged as a single country, as a single society. this is

a historically unprecedented fact, not only when looking at the history of ukraine in the 20th century, but even at the history of ukraine after 1991 . that is, something we learned, something we doing it right and so it is important not only to work on mistakes, but also to understand that we suddenly did the right thing and build, build on it, so that i as a historian, of course, experts in political science, anthropologists can look at it in any way, how else, i as a historian looks at this level of unity far, far from unproblematic. as for a historically unprecedented period in ukrainian history, it is necessary, it must be seized, it must be developed, as it...

to do, well, not to me from boston, it is to tell ukrainians, i think, this, this in ukraine should to find these solutions. to what extent do you think western countries are currently interested in this ukrainian institutional capacity, how can they influence it? they are, of course, interested in ukraine speaking with one voice, for them it... greatly simplifies the tasks, whatever tasks they set before themselves, and my understanding is that we do not know everything, of course, about history the past 20-30 years, but the event can be blamed on anything during this period from the budapest memorandum to the bucharest summit, but i am not aware of the fact that somehow the west worked for the real division of ukraine, the west...

both the united states and european allies were interested in this unity, maybe they could do a better job, approach somehow differently, but uh, ukraine is politically solidary , solidarity, in the sense of solidarity between different political forces, today is in the interests not only of ukraine, but also in the interests of the west, because in the end, what the americans... are doing , western european and central european countries are also doing this, forwarding significant part of their budget, which they could really use there for some social projects, other things, they send to ukraine, they do not want ukraine to actually lose somehow, lose either on the battlefield, or lose internally, as a result of

political. .. troubles in our country, well , this seems to me, an important remark that should end our conversation, that the victory in the war should not end with a defeat inside the country and a quarrel between those who have passed through military trials, so too happens in history, we know many times, yes, yes, unfortunately, it happens, and although it may not be a perfect comparison, but we see the history of afghani. who in the end was able to defeat virtually all of the external enemies, but could never unite, when united, united in the worst possible way. thank you, thank you, mr. sergey. thank you for this conversation, serhiy plokhiy, historian, professor at harvard university, we talked with him about the dangers that exist for ukraine and ukrainian society in this difficult time period for the life of our state. and about these

challenges and about the fact that it is necessary to carry out not only work on mistakes, but also work on achievements, because only such joint work ensures that important national unity, which, by and large , is the key to not only winning the war, but also the survival of the ukrainian nation, perhaps in the most difficult historical period in the life of ukrainians, probably since the second world war, when battles were also fought on the territory of our country. cities were destroyed, both military personnel and civilians died, the infrastructure was being destroyed, all this we are experiencing and will experience now in our historical time. thank you for being with us on this broadcast, i wish you all the best, victory and peace, friends, good luck.

it's 2 p.m. in ukraine, news time on the spresso tv channel, in the studio of iryna koval, i greet all viewers, and now to the most important events, let's start with the situation in the kherson region . four residents of kherson were injured due to enemy shelling since the beginning of the day. the dniprovskyi and the shipyards were targeted districts of the city, informed the head of the region oleksandr prokudin. a 44-year-old woman was hit at a bus stop. she was hospitalized with explosive and shrapnel injuries. two more men, aged 48 and 51, were also outside at the time of the shooting. both are now in hospital in a moderate condition.