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stronger we continue the politclub program on the espresso tv channel. with you is vitaly portykova, our interlocutor, member of the state duma of the russian federation in 2007-16, member of the executive council of the congress of people's deputies , ilya ponomerov. congratulations good evening. well , let's try to understand with you the reaction of the russian elite to the decision of the united states congress to provide aid to ukraine. how are you at all? you perceive this reaction, here the question is not that it just happened, the main thing here is that it happened because of trump, that it was trump who provided guarantees to the speaker of the congress johnson that he can support this bill and bring it to a vote, and that's what i 'm relying on, i think ... the real concern

of the russian elite, because now everyone there is discussing whether trump will support putin and russia or not ? well, this is a good question, and is there an answer to it? no, well i don't think anyone has an answer for that, not even trump himself. it's 50/50 here, whether it will happen or not, i think. i'm in washington right now and i just talked to trump's staff and they say that they are sure that trump will try to bring zelensky and putin to the negotiating table, and there will be very strong pressure on ukraine so that ukraine agrees to the loss of certain... territories there, but how will this

happen, which territories exactly, and what he will do when putin says he wants everything, they have no answer for that. well , the question here is that if trump really wanted it so much, then maybe it would be much more difficult to get help, but it happened and not least because trump was quite calm about such a possibility, well, i wouldn’t said that it was quite calm, because before that there was substantial resistance to this idea, and it was precisely from the side of the so-called magician republicans, that is , supporters of trump, precisely because of them. normally, the republicans were not ready to support this initiative, and that is why it was so important that trump finally said: "well, well, well, well, well, let them vote." they still didn't support it. and the republicans voted against maga, but they

said let them vote. what do you think about the situation with this, i would say, famous flood in... russia, which started in orsk, but now it can be said that it was not of such a global scale, is it the elements, or is it basically corruption and the inability to build the appropriate infrastructure that should prevent such phenomena? well, of course, first of all it is nature, but if there was no corruption, it would be possible to overcome this flood much better, faster. and the losses were much smaller, and that is why there are many residents of these territories, they usually raise questions to the authorities, but right here, as it happens in our country, when something is good, it is because

putin, and when something bad happens, it is because of the actions of the local authorities, and that is exactly what is happening there now, there are accusations and even arrests. this can somehow affect social stability, or i would say such things on the outskirts of the russian federation are of little concern to the majority of the population? on the knees , unfortunately, that is, in order for it to have an impact, it is necessary that it be something long-term, or that it takes place in moscow for a century. by the way, if we are talking about moscow, i want to talk about a discussion that... has recently covered a large the number of russian oppositionists, this is the story of a new film, an anti -corruption fund, which is known primarily for its relationship with the late oleksii navalny, a film called traitors, but it is about the former russian

president boris yeltsin in the 90s, and i would said with such a referendum, which we are used to seeing primarily in putin's propaganda, about such, i would say the damned 90s, these damned 90s. they are a referendum on this tape, what do you think about it in general, i'm interested, well, first of all mine the attitude towards this is that the putin regime is not some kind of counter-revolution, it is a continuation of the yeltsin regime, and the first source of it was in 1993, when the parliament, the real parliament of russia, was shot and... and i always talked about it, and that is why i believe that it is necessary not just to change putin, but to destroy putinism, to destroy the empire, to carry out a real decolonization of russia, and where is its

decentralization and all that, and nothing like that, people from fbk, they do not speak, they they say that it's just that putin himself... was bad, berezovsky stole a lot of money there, that is, for them, the first source of problems is not the system, but these people themselves, and they are pouring in directly, let us be in the future, and here we will be real, normal for the beautiful russia of the future, all that another, but this is of course a delusion, and it is precisely because of this that such a huge scandal is new in the russian opposition. because one part of it and quite a large part of the russian opposition, it has direct relations with the 90s, and they are nostalgic there for mr. yeltsin and for at that time, and the other part, well, she just

doesn't want fbkovits, and says: well, why are they themselves? i think the only reason this tape even came out now is that... they now expect the west to support yulia navalny, and they want to just beat everyone else under her, and... they're even there already announced that there will be a second part of this investigation, that it will be about mr. khodorkovsky and that he needs to prepare, well, there will be an event to support yulia navalnya, there will not be, but the real influence of yulia navalnya on the situation in russia is equal to zero, and the death of her husband, in principle, demonstrated this with all the brightness, if any evidence were needed, then they are in the throne of alexei navalny, of course, a vow. eh, and that is why our attitude to this is very simple: whoever

wants to be a real russian opera, please come to ukraine, to the legion of freedom of russia, to other volunteer units, to declare your support for the armed, armed opera of ukraine, eh -uh, and all this should be done in kyiv, and that's when you will be real oppositionists, and... the political leader of the year according to the magazine zhurnalum so in the middle it seems that this happened because here in ukraine there were many discussions about our time and about the appearance in this rating of the head of the office of the president of ukraine andrii yermak, but of course from a general political point of view it is interesting not yermak, yulia navalna is interesting. and yulia navalna gave an interview after that, in which she reproached the ukrainian authorities for not establishing, in her opinion, the correct contacts

with the russian opposition, that is, in principle, these narratives, which we have heard before, they are not have changed, despite the fact that oleksiy navalny is no longer among us, and his death practically went unnoticed by the vast majority of russians, you see, yulia navalny has already been invited to come to ukraine and openly express everything that she thinks right here. to answer all the difficult questions and once again support our armed russians, the guys who are actually fighting putinism at the front together with the armed forces, because the only thing is to go, i guess, she refused, no, she is simply ignored, she wants to come to her there came to visit her there, zelensky said, here is yulia navalna, there, someone we respect you, please, there, well, anyway, nothing will happen in any way, of course, but this is ridiculous, zelensky is the legitimate head of a real existing state , with which

russia is fighting, and navalna is only one of the representatives of numerous migration , immigration, opposition structures that affect only the stability of their own lives, i would say, they do not even affect the worldview of the majority of russians, who do not suspect their existence, well, that’s right, it is necessary fight, you have to fight and prove. that you are a real, real opera, that you can influence something, and the only way to influence now is armed action, armed action at the front and armed action in the rear, partisan, partisan action, and there are no more and no other networks, political networks it simply does not exist within russia now, but i have seen such a point of view that fbk simply wants to fight for volodymyr's electorate. that is , in fact, this is the same thing we see, which, by the way , we observed in 2000 20 in belarus, when

by and large the opposition to alexander lukashenko wanted to fight for the lukashenka electorate without lukashenko, and i have the impression that the russian opposition, despite the tragic defeat of the belarusian one, continues to take over this amazing experience, in my opinion? well, again, if there were real elections, i would if it was possible . to organize some kind of competition inside russia, it could be a justified strategy, but they simply do not exist now, and no channels of communication with this very electorate of vladimir putin also exist, this is even a different situation than it was in belarusians, belarusians took part in real elections, in real corrigons, but here... all this is not there, and that is why the only dialogue can be through a rifle and through a bullet and

nothing else, and that is why anyone, those who do not understand and do not support this, in the case of stormtroopers, they directly criticize it, they are just sorry, and i believe that now they are not fighting putin, they are fighting us, they are simply fighting other representatives of the russian resistance. well, it must be said that when it comes to armed the resistance is those people who criticize the anti-corruption fund for this investigation of corruption and the very representatives of this current. which we associate with the name of the deceased oleksiy navalny, they are close, i would say to the consensus, well, there are different people, there are different people, you know, after the first forum of support for russian volunteer formations was held in kyiv on march 17 on the day yulia navalnaya voted there at the polling

station, and then we all gathered in kyiv, and after that there was a memorandum. which has already been signed by more than a thousand people, representatives of the political opposition, that is, the circle of support is expanding, and many people who also associate themselves there with the 90s in the past, they now support armed protest, that is why we say that let's not talk about the past, let's talk about the future, and let's act in the present, and that's why... come to kyiv, that's the only thing that's important, come here and express yourself here and support the armed formation right here in ukraine. well, i don't know how realistic that is, though, if we're talking about no, realistically, january soon there will be the next step, and there will be new people who will come, and it will no longer be

a few, but there will be dozens, that is, now we are only hindered by the question of who can go to the territory of ukraine at all, i myself am against the fact that various tourists with russian passports got here and there, but those people who come to support the armed struggle, who bring with them weapons, help these formations, who finance them and so on, well, i think this is very positive , thank you and... for ponomariv, deputy of the state the duma of the russian federation in 2007-2016, a member of the executive council of the congress of people's deputies was in touch with us and we talked about how the russian opposition should act, if of course it wants to engage not in interviews for time-wasters and with stories , how the ukrainian leadership should behave in one case or another, and if it really wants to represent that

part of russian society that understands that russia's war with ukraine is not putin's war against ukraine, how about... says yulia navalny, war , in which the russian leader enjoys the almost careless support of the majority of her compatriots suffering from the chauvinistic virus, for whose sympathies, as we see, for reasons still unclear to me, ms. navalna and those who support her in the so-called anti-corruption fund are fighting. well, now we will talk with the historian, professor of harvard university serhiy plohiy, who is in touch with us. congratulations, mr. serhiy. good i want to start with your new book atom epopil, which is now being translated by our format publishing house, and here i i wonder if you decided to write this story about nuclear blackmail and the danger of a nuclear crisis in general because it is the past or because it is the future? i am a historian, i write about the past,

but of course what is happening around affects the choice of topics, the choice of topics, or? to be honest, i did not intend to write a book on a current topic, for me it was a question of how much our history, in particular with chernobyl, how unique it was or not, that is, you and i were in ukraine during chernobyl, we know how much for everyone for we were the problem that we were deprived of information, information about our own health, and... uh, i wanted to find out how other states, other societies, other cultures react to this in similar conditions, well, but historians work for a long time , while this book was published, it turned out that the topic became even more relevant and the emphasis changed in connection with the seizure of chernobyl, in connection with the coverage of

the zaporizhzhia ec. and now, by the way, president zelensky is even talking about the possibility. attacks on nuclear power plants of ukraine, that is, it makes it even more relevant these thoughts about what can happen with peaceful nuclear energy in general, not even with any use of nuclear weapons there, but with peaceful nuclear energy as a tool to blackmail countries that you want to destroy or occupy? certainly, in fact, these attacks are already happening today, that is, the drones that attacked her nuclear power plant. zaporizhia, the way the russians use it, in fact, for cover, in order to bombard ukrainian targets and peaceful targets with impunity, including in nikopol. and at noon of ukraine, so that atoms for peace, as they were conceived, as they were built, actually turn into atoms for war.

well, by the way, you wrote, you wrote in your book nuclear madness, just about how atoms could and were used for war, in reality in the 20th century. to what extent is this experience of overcoming, overcoming the crisis, which was demonstrated then. by president john kennedy and the chairman of the council of ministers of the soviet union, nikita khrushchev, is relevant for our time, or still cannot be compared, i would say, the adequacy of khrushchev with the adequacy of putin, i don't even know, of course, this is what constitutes the problem, but the problem also lies in the fact that in 22, 23, 24 years we actually encountered a new phenomenon, as if it was about the use atoms for war, i.e. rockets, it was at least clear who controlled them, where they got it from and where it came from, the answer, with

the seizure of nuclear facilities, such as the zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant, the possibility of using this threat and creating an actually nuclear... nuclear crisis, nuclear explosion, in conditions where it is not clear who did it, as with the kakhovskaya dam, i.e., you can endlessly point the finger at the opposite side, and in fact, responsibility does not come or does not come so quickly and immediately, i.e., in fact, today we are in a more dangerous situation than they were during the caribbean crisis. due to the fact that responsibility is so blurred, say, in principle, if you look at the war between russia and ukraine now, how do you look at

the further development of events, perhaps on the eve of yesterday's events, when the congress of the united the states still found opportunities for a decision on assistance, but in any case, this is one local decision, what will the process itself look like? ukraine has persevered and continues. struggle thanks to two factors: the mobilization of ukrainian society and the support of the allies of the western allies. when it comes to military aid, the united states is a key, key ally, meaning it will be very difficult, if at all possible, for europe to continue supporting ukraine without the united states of america. and i would like to look at what happened yesterday as the first step in the process. in to which the united states of america actually regains leadership in the anti-putin coalition, and in fact leadership in the world as a whole. we do not know how

political events in the united states of america will develop, but i hope that this is not only a step in the right direction, but that it is the beginning of a longer journey, and today, today , we have every reason to be optimistic after. in fact, six months of very pessimistic forecasts, er, now ukraine must, must respond in accordance with this decision, that is, do everything possible in order to the weapons that would be delivered were delivered on time and were on the front line, on the front line, as quickly as possible. well, we can already say that we are in some kind of such a long-term conflict, because... the third year of the war has passed, we see that the russian federation is full of thirst to continue it, the russian leadership seems to be satisfied with the very process of the war, we see

how it is growing support for russia, primarily political support in beijing, and the question arises as to how ready ukrainian society is to understand that war can continue for many more years, or you can not think so, because despite all the desire to fight, russia may simply not have enough strength, but... russia is an authoritarian, in fact dictatorial entity and society that is completely under control, or almost completely under the control of both putin and the leadership in the kremlin, and with this comes on the one hand the possibilities of mobilization, relatively quick mobilization, but with this also comes the dangers associated with the fact that this is a personalistic regime. that is, at some stage another performance by prigozhin or someone else another of puchin's closest entourage can suddenly suddenly stop, actually

, stop these processes and actually stop the war, but this can happen only in the case when the war drags on and begins, begins to hit the russian elite, the political and security elite more and more painfully , because the business elite has been suffering for some, some time, this can happen only in the conditions of the continuation of an effective war on the part of ukraine. what is very clear to us today is that ukraine must learn not only to advance, but also to defend, and in that sense, it's really, it's really a different, different stage of war. before the vote in the american congress, i repeated for months the same, in fact, the same phrase, the same maxim, that this is a turning point in the history

of war, the first ... turning point was after russia was defeated in the battle for ramstein was created in kyiv, and the war continued in a certain direction, after that problems began at various levels, political problems in the united states of america, our the expectations regarding the counteroffensive in the south were not fulfilled, the hopes were not fulfilled, and another moment came, and the moment of decision. this decision was made here in america. i understand that a similar reorganization is taking place in ukraine now, if it happens, i think that ukraine will be able, will be able to survive, and it is possible to survive in these conditions, actually win and, accordingly , influence the internal political processes in russia. and sooner or later this regime will not

last, sooner or later it will collapse. we need it to happen as soon as possible. you talk about the attitude of the russian elite, here is my colleague mykhailo zehal, a famous russian publicist once, and now a columnist for the spiegel publication, published texts about the attitude of the russian elite, in which he emphasizes that now businessmen and politicians no longer think that putin will lose , they believe that russia is winning, and attitudes toward putin have become much more loyal, but also much more skeptical of the event. this war must be won, otherwise russia may fall apart, and we will not be able to live the way they lived, i heard these words from many of my interlocutors in the russian elite, so where is the hope that they will get tired of the process, which they perceive as a process that should lead to victory in any case, of course, they got used to, and my understanding of what mykhailo zygal writes about is about

, well, let's say... medium business, or business that depends on the transformation of the russian economy into a military one. if we talk about big businesses related to oligarchs and so on, their main problem is of course, find a way to survive today, somehow protect their capital from confiscation or other unpleasant things in the west, and eventually return to what they consider to be a normal situation, a normal life, so there are definitely businesses that use this moment, they will benefit from adjusting the economy for war, but big russian business will lose by and large, just as the russian elite will lose in the long run, the reorientation from

paris to china. cultural, financial and so on further, this is not a quick or painless process for those who today are in charge of large parts of the russian economy, so yes, the situation is not as panicky as it was in march, april of 22, when it was believed that everything was lost, but the situation in the medium-term, long-term perspective is not favorable for the kremlin. how do you generally feel about what is happening in the west in connection with the russian-ukrainian war, both from the point of view of assessing the challenges and from the point of view of assessing the danger for the west itself, to what extent the west takes into account the lessons of the past, when the war in ukraine always seemed like such a periphery of the interests of the civilized world? one of the shocks.