occupation, they simply observe some kind of ritual, but from the point of view of politics, politics as such, they do nothing against the occupation, especially in the international arena, the main dimension and the main test for all of this is whether georgia is active in the international arena, regarding opposition, opposition to occupation, occupation, de-occupation. for example, including the issue of georgia, the occupied territories of georgia to the international agenda, to the international sanctions imposed on russia, why not include our issue to these sanctions, why not, why not, this is a very simple logic and a very simple georgian interest, that our issue should be in a package with ukraine on the diplomatic front. the government

strongly opposes this, and thereby demonstrates that it is already a de facto satellite of russia, this is our authenticity, this is reality, and our society has only recently realized this, and our partners in the west, unfortunately, do not understand this very well , mr. george, we sincerely thank you for your thoughts and for your expert assessment. gurzyn parliamentarian and we already have the next guest on the call, nataliya plaksienko butyrska, expert on east asian issues, master of foreign policy. mrs. natalia, good evening. good evening, well, let's try to understand with you what is happening now with chinese interest in the russian-ukrainian track. all the same, when the chinese say that they are ready to provide a platform for russian-ukrainian.

conference, that there should be bilateral communication, that a conference in which russia will not be present has no meaning, it is practically the same as what the russians themselves say, what do they want to achieve? well, actually voiced their position, what you said, what, what, what russia wants, we have a platform for negotiations, the global summit offered by ukraine is fair, but you see that... that even under pressure from our partners, under great request, we have not yet seen china's agreement, that is, not today it has not agreed to participate in this global summit, because china, well, first of all, it pursues another goal, china in any case by its neutrality, it is on bots of russia, and what russia has announced that it does not recognize this summit, well, that's obvious. because the peace formula

is not about what russia wants, accordingly, china is trying with all its efforts to achieve not only the participation of russia and ukraine in this international summit, but they propose that it should be a platform recognized by both sides that have there should be a level playing field for both parties and different proposals should be negotiated. various peace proposals, and here china is obviously not against pushing the negotiation table and those proposals it had, especially since lavrov has already talked about that the chinese plan is not so bad, and in this case, on the one hand , interests from russia are preserved and advanced, on the other hand , china acts as a peacemaker, and this affects this process from its chinese side. ms.

natalya, the question is: here is the secretary of state of the united states of america, anthony blinken, he actually warned china about russia. conventionally speaking, this warning sounded like china cannot, as they say, sit or stand with one foot in both shoes. please tell me if there are any in the united states of america methods of influencing china so that... so that, relatively speaking, this great country at least maintains such a real neutrality. well, the united states is trying to use what it can and that pressure. on the one hand, blinken announced to his western partners during the nato summit, at the level of foreign ministers, that china is helping russia, and he named a whole list, such as... what exactly does he help, he is

quite there, it is for that the western partners also take into account during their summits, during their meetings, and there have already been meetings, as in... for example, scholz has already met with chinese leaders, and there will be more meetings because xi jinping is planning a visit to france, so that they focus on this and that they connect to the pressure that the united states of america is exerting, the instruments not so much, no matter how china talks about secondary sanctions, no matter how much it opposes them, but from my point of view it is still a method, because when... the financial institutions of the united states began to put real pressure and threaten real sanctions against financial institutions china, only then all these transactions that took place between the two countries and even in yuan, they suffered very seriously, and this

is not only, let's say, the information that the western press talks about, these are real things that the russians themselves talk about, really now it is very difficult to spend. financial transactions between the two countries, and indeed the chinese very clearly check everything that may even have any touch on the goods, for example, dual purpose, or what may be on the sanctions lists, that is, from my point of view , the method is precisely the whip in relation to china, it has to act, he has to act very carefully and very seriously, and not only against china itself, because, for example, our group, which is a poster... in compliance with the sanctions of yarmak mcfaul, it also showed a list of various microcircuits, elements that are used by the military-industrial complex of russia , which are still purchased from western companies, and it is obvious that this re-export goes not only

through china, because china was also an important place of re-export, but also through many other countries, and they must also be pressured, they must also be punished with sanctions , another other way there is no just conspiracy and appeals to conscience, well, they don't work. china, in particular, should know that supporting russia, cooperation with russia, has a very serious price for it. but these warnings, which were sounded during the meeting of the foreign ministers of the group of seven in capri, that china should choose who to be with, so to speak, with the smart or the beautiful, or with the europeans or with the russians, as far as they can... with me separately the leaders of european countries. point of view, they should be articulated more for example, during the visit, scholz raised the issue of support by china, russia, but when

china is given the cake, when china, for example, sees, in the case of let's say, with germany, that economic relations, including germany, are tied to... to china, and there may be certain manipulations, then obviously he will try to sit in these two shoes. all the same, blindin, when he raised these conversations, he is obviously counting on a more serious approach from european partners, in particular scholz and in particular macron, and these conversations, they should not be through the prism of some kind of further interaction, after all, they must be certain. provided that, especially since for the european union russia's war against ukraine is not about some conflict that does not concern them, it is a clear awareness of its own threat, and accordingly, the fact that china supports

the military-industrial complex and and the entire defense forces of russia, nato generals, and the military, the european military, they say and realize that... in the future this support is indirect to china, but it still exists, it can turn into military russia's actions against the european union, in the event that now, for example, they do not succeed, if ukraine does not succeed in stopping, let's say , russia, that is, it is important here that this awareness is supported by a clear articulation and clear such steps and signals regarding china, then it... from my point of view, well, at least it will have some red lines drawn, that it is possible, that it is not, and can it happen that china will switch from the supply of such technological goods to a certain extent to the direct supply of

military goods of russia, i.e. weapons, is china ready to actually take such actions? it seems to me that china is not yet ready for such a thing, because... that it will be associated with a serious complication of relations with the united states of america and with the european union, it will already mean that it has crossed a red line, but anyway. that is why, or rather, blinken and other european leaders talk about the inadmissibility of this aid. for today, this is a preventive conversation for china, so that it does not do this, for now, we will think that it is enough for china, and its personal interests from in the american market, in western technologies and in the desire to keep moderate relations. with the western world with the americans, and also certain of their own personal

risks, they will be such a serious deterrent, well, plus obviously, it 's also important that the world is really feeling the negative effects of this war right now, and china is among those countries that, as we see, are interested in stopping the conflict, that's another matter, we have already talked about under which... conditions, they are not, not pro-ukrainian, unfortunately, nevertheless, discomfort from the conflict, and china, in particular, stressed scholz, because after the visit he said that many countries that are friends with russia are not satisfied with this war, they are not satisfied with this war, obviously because of the global consequences, because of the impact on the economy and because of the general situation in the world. how do you think the rivalry between the united states and china in the asia-texas

region affects the whole situation, because we see that today congress will deal with helping not only ukraine, israel, but also taiwan, other asia-texas allies of the chinese people's united states of the states the people's republic of china, in turn, is taking an obvious initiative to somehow pull the allies of the united states over to its side, but the minister of foreign affairs was in indonesia, today he... in planned guinea, where the americans would like to have their real military capabilities, has already held talks there with justin tachenko, the minister of foreign affairs of this country, that is, these are their clear, i would say, such attempts, even these countries of the pacific region, which are trying to cooperate with the united states to pull their side, like the americans can this be prevented? well, the americans were saying that china is really rude, especially lately we have been seeing such rudeness from our partners, so to speak. because biden managed to establish relations between korea and japan and

create this triangle that actively interacts, last week japan, the philippines, the united states also agreed to interact, there is also alcus, there is a quad, and accordingly china feels that the united states has framed them like this china calls these cliques, and of course it prepares and tries to promote its own against countermeasures, and you mentioned those countries that china is trying to attract to its side, and it is not difficult for it, because economic interaction with these countries gives china certain trump cards, however, as regards, let's say, indonesia, it is a country which is known for its, its policy of non-alignment, and rather the interaction of the united states, both indonesia and many asian countries. of the cannes region, this is the desire to establish a balance in the confrontation between the united states

of america and china, because these countries in the region, both vocally and by their actions, are very often show that they don't want to choose a side and that they really don't like this tension between the united states and china that could escalate into something bigger in their region, so this policy, it's faster. to balance, rather than, for example, to create some alliances that will oppose the united states of america there, or will be directed, for example, against the united states of america, especially since china is behaving quite aggressively, and it has territorial disputes and with the same indonesia also, because he claims an economic zone that belongs to indonesia, just the countries of the region, and malaysia, let's say. and the philippines until now, until they clearly sided with the united states, but there it is a different

story, they have a bilateral treaty, all these countries try not to oppose china because they do not have the power to oppose it, respectively , economic interaction is what helps to maintain peaceful relations, and to receive certain benefits from this interaction. ms. natalia, thank you you. nataliya plaksienko butyrska, expert on east asia, master of foreign policy. we have a short break, and in a few minutes we will return to... you and we will talk with vitaly portnikov in the same way about all the most important topics of this week.

we're back live, saturday's politclub, and now we're going to talk with

vitaly portnikov, as i said, about the main topics of the week. so, mr. vitaly, the main topic is the vote that is going on in the house of representatives right now voting is taking place, in fact the first amendments are already being considered, there are four of them in total, if i am not mistaken, what should we expect? we are 100% sure that there will be aid to ukraine, that other bills will be voted, at least there about support. israel as well, your point, i think so, i don't see any reason right now for that not to happen for the simple reason that we 've seen the procedural voting numbers and they 've been over 2/3 there, there's a bipartisan the majority, so you just have to wait, wait and see what happens a vote on all three of these bills

that the speaker has proposed, it's literally going to be in the next few hours now, well at least there's no reason to believe that it's going to fail in any way, according to all the observers who are involved in the congress right now, well it has to be , as was planned before they were brought to the house of representatives, and by the way, there may be another rather interesting situation that the senate may... vote as early as tomorrow, uh, it will also be a very serious story then, and because we'll get this one sooner aid than the previous ones could have received, so this is also a very important point, but what happened, why johnson, trump, a whole series

of republicans, who, relatively speaking, before this , opposed aid to ukraine, or...blocked it, that is, we remember that de facto aid to ukraine, not only ukraine, has been blocked since october of last year. what happened in the last two weeks, why was there such a radical change of approaches and a radical change of opinion of the same johnson? i think it could be real understanding of what is on... the mood of the voters, the voters of the republican party , including, it is not only connected with ukraine, it is connected with israel, we talked to you when there was an attack by iran on israel, what now delaying help will be much more difficult, you say about two weeks, and when the attack happened, we were in the studio exactly

a week ago, by the way, and an hour after ours ended. last saturday, and in fact from that moment everything became so active, because it became clear that if the republicans fail this test, they can get rid of many important votes, you know, while the war in the gas sector was going on, well, it was possible to somehow drag it out, israel can still argue, and the united states itself does not want to intensify military actions, here is such a situation, when israel must actively defend itself, i will tell you from the following. attacks may require money for an air defense system, for the same missiles, and the republicans say no, we will not vote for all this, it is generally general aid, not only to ukraine and israel, that's all. aid as money, what donald trump is talking about, we don't want to help them, because we have american problems, he doesn't single out ukraine specifically, he is a general principle, if we

give someone money, let them give it back, and that's it things, thanks to this statement, we have 7.5 billion credits in this ukrainian legislature, but it is clear that they could no longer afford the luxury of dragging on for a long time, and this attack, it changed the situation quite seriously, well... besides, you understand, we can't until the end understand these people, i mean johnson, mike mccaul, the chairman of the foreign affairs committee, a republican, from texas, by the way, he said when we're discussing this vote, every congressman should ask himself, am i chamberlain or churchill, that's the question, and that means everyone understands it, but johnson also understands it, if he doesn't risk anything in particular, he... thinks that this situation will be quite serious, that it will affect

the very course of military operations, that it will be against his values, and with that he saw that he won't be fired, that trump supports him because trump needs johnson now, that conservatives in the republican caucus are unwilling. can be eliminated at the request of one or two his voting procedure, they talk about it, but they don't do what the democrats say they won't vote for it, why are we even going to change the rules, according to which the speaker of congressmen. well, here's a quote from johnson, my son is going to the naval academy this fall, it's a challenge for me and for the representatives many american families, this is not a game or a joke, we cannot. into politics, we must do the right thing, and i will give the opportunity to each member of the chamber to vote according to his conscience and will, i will give the opportunity to vote

by a large number, but it is only about this, to give the opportunity to vote, the speaker no longer decides how the congressmen will vote, they can vote against, he gives them the opportunity to express their positions, this is the frequency of his conscience as a speaker. the house of representatives, and that's why they are so angry congressmen like margery taylor green suddenly became our big heroine too, because what she says, what she writes, what she proposes is generally very strange, very strange, because they understand that there is a stable majority in this situation, and this majority is the main thing that we have in voting for each, for each of these... bills, well , including that we must add that in fact a large number of republicans supported this

aid to ukraine, that is, not simply the minority supported, nevertheless the majority, and until things, every minute there will be a vote for aid to ukraine in the congress, in the house of representatives, that's why we 're seeing it right now, yes. these assets what is it called uh russian assets can be confiscated here and where tiktok can be banned 360 e a total of congressmen 186 republicans and 174 democrats voted for this. e bill 80 38, so it is still very important for us to see how the following bills will be voted, now we are

also talking about it, by the way, this is the first of four that concerns tiktok, yes, because in general it will four separate draft laws, and we saw the first one, it has already been voted on, and this is, by the way, symptomatic. this means that with an almost 100% probability , other bills will be voted on, that is , the next one will be for the help of israel, and the third one, if i am not mistaken, will be for the help of ukraine, so we, well, we can now follow this vote , how it will look, this is, as far as i understand, the next vote will be now, as i understand it, at 8:30, this is ukrainian law. here we can follow him live, this the law, no, it's not ukrainian, i'm sorry about the law, it's the law about the indo-pacific region, but now we'll see all the laws, it's

the 836 law about... money for allies in the indo-pacific region, we see it, 5 minutes, by the way, congressmen have in order to vote, press for or against, and when 5 minutes pass, then there will be the next draft law, which most likely will already concern ukraine, so we are watching, well, actually, actually already, if you look, already, the majority is already there, and now there will be, but pay attention, it's an interesting thing you see, so far the pro-kyan region is in favor of this law, i'm just wondering what the party majority is in each draft law, you see, it's all accepted by an overwhelming majority of votes, it's practically complete, the majority

is two-party. you see, there are almost no democrats voting against, uh, but there are republicans, yes, well, all, practically, no, not that already 2/3, more than 2/3, will be the most important moment for us, so what are we waiting for , we will look at, i think, all four of these bills to make sure that they go into the senate packages, because the senate has for all four voice laws. there are literally a few minutes left, i would like to remind you that i may remind you, dear viewers, of the atmosphere of a football match, but this is not a football match, because the lives of our defenders depend on this money, and the lives of your own lives depends, because this is an air defense system, this is money for the improvement of ukrainian defense, this is what we

see now, it is very important... for everything that we generally perceive as the future of the ukrainian-russian confrontation, well literally two minutes left, and by the way, when we were talking a few minutes ago about the fact that the majority of republicans, no matter what, they supported these bills, they all said, it was just necessary to give the opportunity to vote. in fact, the minority, this pro-trump minority or the most ultra ultra right ultra conservative, as they are called, they, we will actually see them now, what is their number, relatively speaking , 33, 33, well, another 17 did not vote, well, somewhere up to 50 people, and republicans in general practically vote as democrats, but i also wonder who and why the republicans

they... have always traditionally supported taiwan, they believed, like president trump, that china is the main threat of this whole story, why don't they vote for e-e aid to taiwan , it's a strange story, but now the main news, you see, is andrei in the russian newspaper izvestia, the house of representatives of the united states. adopted a bill on the confiscation of frozen assets of ukraine to the bark of russia in favor of ukraine, so, as you can see, we are not the only ones who are closely watching this voting, our russian neighbors know that their money is now, how should i say it, by the way, interestingly, this will be a precedent, it will actually be an impetus for other states, because there are many states.