it is not there yet, so mr. vitaly, perhaps we will talk about what is happening now in georgia, the actual adoption of the law on foreign agents, foreign agents yes, or agents of influence, well, relatively speaking, it is a kind of carbon copy from the russian law, plus or minus somewhere, and by the way, a very similar law was also adopted in kyrgyzstan, mr. vitaly, how do you evaluate such actions. other authorities, why right now, why is georgia sliding towards such postulates of russian authoritarianism, well , by the way, this is an interesting story, because this law has not really been adopted in georgia yet, in in kyrgyzstan, it has already been approved and signed by president zhaparov, and here we can clearly say that this is not just some kind of, you know, formal thing, because after the law on kyrgyzstan was signed, the president...

zhoparov, he said that he did not there will be no problems, that there will be no difficulties with public organizations, and after he said this, public organizations began to close one after another, but just a few days ago, despite all the assurances of sadir japarov, the soros foundation kyrgyzstan stopped working, and you understand that for such a small country as kyrgyzstan, every such... organization that allows the creation of public initiatives, independent media, is a huge story, and here we have a simple situation: here was kyrgyzstan, which was always considered just one of those exceptions from the central asian politicians, because the government was changing, independent media appeared, there were different political parties in the parliament, whether they were clans , of course, mutual, but people knew that when they went and voted, they could change the government or through rebellion, but how you understand... c

in tajikistan, uzbekistan, turkmenistan, even in kazakhstan, you will not change the power in this way, that is, it was the only small country, yes, not like others in terms of the number of populated areas, but which showed that it is possible to build democracy in central asia. as soon as kyrgyzstan began to drift towards russia under sadyr zhaparov, actions related to the liquidation of this democracy immediately began. moreover , you understand that in reality the regime of sadir japarov is not threatened, he is very popular, he came to power on the wave of people's protest, he may have a real chance to recommend deputies who are elected to the parliament, this is such a kyrgyz zelensky, you understand, but why did he take such steps if he is so popular and... i think , that it

is because you are getting closer to moscow, and when you get closer to moscow, they tell you in moscow, and somehow it is not very good, comrade zhaparov, if you have some incomprehensible public organizations funded by the americans, you don’t think that these organizations to us friends, the ministry of foreign affairs of the russian federation issued a statement that it believes that all these public organizations in the countries of central asia have an anti-russian character, and this is an ordinary educational conversation, and it may not even be at the level of putin, at the level of just some officials , here you have organizations financed by the americans, you have publications, newspapers financed by the americans, one of the first measures of the new kyrgyz government was an attempt to limit the activities of local radio services. freedom, what used to be

by the way, what happened in uzbekistan, what happened in turkmenistan, that is, as soon as you think that you need to get closer to moscow, you are immediately told that either you are with our enemies or you are not with us, why do you allow our enemies to act on their territory, it's not even a question of zaparov, it's that these publications and these organizations, they can talk completely differently about the russian-ukrainian war, but look how many people among the kazakhs sympathize with ukraine. this is because this tradition, i would say, of pluralism in the media, no matter what, it is in kazakhstan is not lost, there is russian television, but people, people who, let's say, watch news in kazakh or kyrgyz there , as you understand, they can have alternative sources of information, by the way, in kazakhstan, i want to say that part of russian television has been restricted in 2022-2023 , and this is a big step for kazakhstan.

to share our fate, that is, we are talking about the fact that in kyrgyzstan and already in georgia such belarusianization is taking place to a certain extent. well, in any, i would say, authoritarianism that wants to focus on russia, forced to build statehood according to the russian example. and, as you remember, it was always like that in ukraine. why were all our protests so serious? either our government wanted to falsify the elections, or it refused european integration. do you remember the example in armenia, where the russians really managed to convince the then president, serge sarkhsyan, that it was necessary to refuse. from the agreement on the european association, and armenia was immediately brought to the eurasian union, to the csto, and then, when the real problem began, the war, it turned out that russia is not going to protect it, that is also a very good example, that is , the main thing for moscow is to disconnect, to disconnect

the post-soviet space and the civilized world, by the way, here is an interesting point, but if there will be any chinese funding, let's say of public organizations in kyrgyzstan? will this also be limited, will they also be under the strict supervision of president zhaparov's administration? i think not, because first of all we understand that russia and china are at least partners, and in fact russia or china is a hegemon in relation to russia, at least now yes? and by the way, countries like kazakhstan gravitate towards china, we know that well that... chinese money goes there, chinese money also goes to belarus, which we mentioned, so chinese money goes to mongolia that itself, for example, that is, we, we are the states on which russia would like to influence, it is clear that

china is also strengthening its influence there, and in this case we are aware that chinese organizations, chinese businesses, chinese media. .. projects, they will work in these states, which, including to expand russia, that’s great for you, by the way, the kyrgyz law: organizations that are recognized as foreign representatives must submit additional reports, report quarterly to state institutions on how they used the money, submit a report on their activities about their managers every six months, can there will be unscheduled inspections, if they decide where... bodies, heads of organizations that try to influence citizens to abandon their civic duties, what does this mean, we don't know if it's a fine or their you can be imprisoned for up to 5 years, if no

information is provided, you can be fined or imprisoned for 5 years, if repeated violations, an even bigger fine. or deprivation of liberty for 10 years, for what, i wonder , do you imagine, this actually criminalizes public and journalistic activity, it de facto criminalizes any dissent, that is, that is, essentially one course, one party, yes, one jafarov , one jafarov, and in the case of georgia, here we go back, we see a somewhat similar path. and unfortunately the georgian authorities are now choosing him. sir, but there is a difference, there is already our, dear guest, i hope he will be with us now, there is, there is an important point that georgia is a candidate for membership of the european union, everything can be understood with kyrgyzstan, kazakhstan, kyrgyzstan, i apologize,

how and other central asian countries, some are members of the collective security treaty organization, it is a member of the eurasian economic union, but georgia, it is a candidate for membership of the european union, and i am now reading from these... representatives of the georgian authorities, from the prime minister, let's say what he says: if we are accepted into the european union, we will change this law, or cancel it altogether, what are the problems, we will be guided by it while we are not in the european union, well, this is a completely distorted idea of european integration, you understand, but why does georgia follow such a path, what, what, what is wrong with the georgian authorities, that they allow themselves to adopt such a law. and this, by the way, is not the first bill, not the first attempt, and not the first bill that actually moves georgia towards a russian scenario, by the way, the prime minister of georgia said this week that they did not want to fight the path of ukrainization,

but it is actually also very interesting that this is not the case with the georgian government, i think that this is the problem of any government that already has a monopoly in society, but they are afraid that they... by the way, our telethon is exactly the same genesis, but it would seem that benzina ivanishvili, like volodymyr zelenskyi , is not in danger, there is an obvious level of support, there is... an obvious rating of the georgian dream, we understand that the georgian dream is faster in the next parliamentary elections after all, will win, form a government, elect a new president, the question arises, what should the independent media community or public organizations do, relatively speaking, which threatens these people, but they begin to fear any criticism that they do not control, this is the idea , you know, realistically speaking, this is the idea of ​​sovereign democracy in russia. there is no longer a sovereign democracy, this is an advantage vladyslav surkov, sovereign democracy is when you have

control and at the same time control the manifestations of the opposition, that is, there are some other opinions, but they also controlled, this is how it was in russia, relatively speaking, until 2022, a new newspaper was published, the radio station echo of moscow was working, there were some human rights organizations in... well , even the memorial was working, but as soon as you go a little further, you are controlled, that's it i think they want to create such a system. george kandelaki, former georgian parliamentarian, representative of the sovlab organization is in touch with us. congratulations, mr. george. good evening well, then, explain to us, here i am trying to understand with a colleague, why your government and that, go, go with it in a strange way. why do they need a foreign influence law now, can you explain to us? in fact, the motivation of bedina ivanishvili, our

version of yanukovych, our oligarch, is not fully understood by anyone, even the majority of the georgian dream, does not understand why he embarked on this adventure, on the eve of the elections, but it is not necessary to really fully understand, because we can reflect, taking ... publicly announced things, it is known that the leaders of russia, lavrov, volodin, dugin, praise this initiative, he likes this law very much, and at the same time this the law is criticized, the leaders of the civilized world, the president of the european council, charles michel and others, the united states, etc. and... this is all said, this is enough for

georgia, first of all, also for our friends, to draw conclusions about what it is said, it is said that this tree in georgia is in the orbit of the kremlin, which causes a very sharp reaction of our society, and this situation is developing itself, mr. george, please tell me, have you already mentioned it. about georgian society, does your society have one now? does the georgian opposition have the opportunity to stop this process of actual belarusianization of the country? the conclusion and conclusion of this process, it is difficult to predict this already, it was a year when the same... law, the same law was proposed due to a sharp

reaction of the society, it was withdrawn, stopped, fortunately, by the number of people on the streets, and the energy of the protests, my hopes prevail, the hopes of others prevail, so there have been no protests for three days. everyone was preparing for the second reading in parliament, and the process was just beginning, but for the third day in a row , young people are being blocked on rustaveli avenue, today there was a march of women, georgian women, spontaneous protests of the younger generation in the evenings, and here this guard and... the intensity of these protests give reason for optimism, but it is very difficult

to understand what will be the result, determination society is very high, but on the other hand, there is this fanatical fanatical position of the georgian dream of the ivanishvilik regime of russia, after all, how will it look from the point of view of the european integration of georgia, because the government must continue this course along with it... try something to do for the start of negotiations, have already warned that all this can significantly worsen the situation, in principle, even disrupt the process of georgia's negotiations on joining the european union. why this to ivanishvili and his team? why is this for ivanishvili and his team, again, it is difficult to analyze. i already said about it. apparently , his logic of actions is difficult to understand. on the one

hand, it expresses strength, shows, expresses strength. in my opinion, in the opinion of many others, this is directly related to russia, and this is the government's game with russia, that's why they want it, answering your question, why them? the prime minister of georgia stated that he... is afraid of the threat of ukrainization, that is , it turns out that ukraine is like this, as they say, georgia was afraid of this, so to speak, please tell me why, why so says the prime minister, and is the example of ukraine a bad one for georgia, well, from the point of view of the georgian authorities, and what is ukrainianization from their point of view, they

mean war and... and again they play on that for georgia the war of 2008 is a living memory, and still, and they are playing for insurance before the war, their platform is in that we are bad, but if we are not, it will be worse, there will be war, whether you want it or not, and in this vein this propaganda is 100% consistent. is synchronized and one can even say that it is coordinated by the kremlin on the part of the russian authorities, and this is the understanding they put in, they have spoiled georgian-ukrainian relations for a long time, contrary to the sentiments of our society, which , of course, fully supports ukraine, but this

fear of war, what happened in 2008 , when our country had to act. against russia alone, and this, this, on what, what kremlin propaganda plays on. the government of georgia, the georgian government is 100% a conduit for russian propaganda. such a unique and tragic situation that has befallen us on the other hand, you do not have diplomatic relations with russia. abkhazia and south ossetia continue to be effectively annexed by russia, because the russian state has a joint military agreement with them. support, how is it possible to be pro-russian on the one hand, and on the other hand oppose the occupation of georgian territories by russia, how does it all happen in one head, if do you want in fact, the georgian dream is not really against the occupation, they just observe some kind of ritual, but from

the point of view of politics, politics as such, they are not against anything. occupation does not do, especially in the international arena, the main dimension and the main test for all this is whether georgia is active in the international arena, in terms of resistance, opposition to occupation, occupation, de-occupation, for example, the inclusion of the issue of georgia, the occupied territories of georgia, in the international agenda, to international sanctions imposed. to russia, why not? will include our issue in these sanctions, why not, why not, this is very simple logic and a very simple georgian interest for our issue to be in a package with ukraine on the diplomatic front, but the georgian government is strongly against this, and therefore himself

demonstrates that he is already de facto a satellite of russia, authenticity, this is reality, and our society has only just realized this, and our partners in the west, unfortunately, i do not really understand, mr. george, we sincerely thank you for your thoughts and your expert assessment, yehor kandelaki, former gurzyn parliamentarian, and we already have the next guest, on call, nataliya plaksienko butyrska, an expert on issues of east asia, m.sc. of foreign policy, ms. natalia, good evening, good evening, well, let's try to understand with you what is happening now with chinese interest in... the russian-ukrainian track, after all, when the chinese say that they are ready to provide a platform for of the russian-ukrainian conference, that there should be bilateral

communication, that a conference in which russia will not be present has no meaning, practically it is exactly, what do the russians themselves say, what do they want to achieve in general? well, actually speaking, they voiced their position, what you said, what, what, what russia wants, we have a platform for negotiations. the global summit proposed by ukraine is fair, but you can see that even under the pressure of our partners, under the great request of china, we have not yet seen an agreement, that is, it has not yet agreed to participate in this global summit, because china, well, first, he pursues another goal, china, in any case, his own he is neutral. on the side of russia, and what russia announced that it does not recognize this summit, well, it is obvious, because the peace formula is not about what russia wants, accordingly, china

is trying with all its efforts to achieve not only the participation of russia and ukraine in this in the international summit, but they propose that it should be a platform recognized by both sides, that... there should be equal conditions for both sides and different proposals, different peace proposals should be discussed, and here china is obviously not against moving the table as well negotiations and those proposals that he had, especially since lavrov already spoke about the fact that the chinese plan is not so bad, and in this case, on the one hand , the interests of russia are preserved and advanced, and on the other hand , china. .. acts as a peacemaker, and this affects this process from its chinese side. ms. nataliya, the question is: here is

the secretary of state of the united states of america, anthony blinken, he actually warned china about russia. conventionally speaking, this warning sounded like china cannot, as they say, sit or stand with one foot in both shoes. can you please tell me? does the united states of america have any methods of influencing china so that, relatively speaking, this great country at least maintains such a real neutrality, well, the united states is trying to use what it can, this pressure, on the one hand, and blinken announced to his western partners during the nato summit, at the level of ministers for... them , that china is helping russia, and named a whole list, like this, what exactly it helps, it there is quite a lot, it is so that the western

partners also take into account during their summits, during their meetings, and there have already been meetings, as, for example, scholz has already met with chinese leaders, and there will be more meetings, because xi jinping is planning a visit to france, so that they focus on this and that... they connect to the pressure exerted by the united states of america, there are not so many tools, no matter how much china talks about secondary sanctions, no matter how much it opposes them , but from my point of view, it is still a method, because when the financial institutions of the united states began to put real pressure and threaten real sanctions against the financial institutions of china, only then ... in all these transactions that took place between the two countries and even in yuan, they were very seriously affected, and this is not only, let's say, the information that

the western press is talking about, these are real things that the russians themselves are talking about, it is really very difficult to conduct financial transactions between the two countries now, and the chinese are really very clearly checking everything that can have even a touch have to goods, for example, dual purpose, or what may be on the sanctions lists, that is, from my point of view , the method is just the whip, in relation to china, it should act, it should act very carefully and very seriously, and not only against china itself , because, for example, our group that monitors yermak mcfaul's sanctions, it also showed a list of different microcircuits, elements that are used in military equipment. russia, which are still purchased by western companies, and it is obvious that these exports go not only through china, because china was also an important place

of re-export, and through many other... countries, and they also need to be pressured, they also need to be punished with sanctions, there is no other, other way, just conspiracy, and appeals to conscience, well, they don't work. china, in particular, should know that russia's support for cooperation with russia has a very serious price for it. but these warnings, which were sounded during the meeting of the foreign ministers of the group of seven in capri, about the fact that china has to choose. er, with whom to be, so to speak, with intelligent or with beautiful, or with europeans or with the russians, as far as they can be taken seriously in china, from my point of view, they should be articulated separately by the leaders of european countries, for example, during the visit, scholz raised the issue of china's support for russia, but when china is given the cake, when china, for example, sees in the case... with

, let's say, germany, that the economic relations of germany, including, they are tied to china, and there may be certain manipulations, then obviously he will try to sit in these two shoes. still blinkin when he brought up these conversations, he is obviously counting on a more serious approach from european partners, in particular scholz and in particular macron, and these conversations they have... should not be through the prism of some kind of further interaction, after all, they should be a certain condition, all the more so since for the european union russia's war against ukraine is not about some conflict that does not concern them, it is a clear awareness of its own threat, and accordingly, the fact that china supports the military-industrial complex and the entire defense of russia , generals. nato and the military,

the european military, they speak and realize that in the future this support is indirect to china, but it still exists, it may turn into military actions by russia against the european union, if now, for example, they fail to stop ukraine, let's say russia, that is, it is important here that this awareness is supported by a clear. speculation and such clear steps and signals regarding china, then it, from my point of view, will at least have some such drawn red lines, what is possible, what is not, and whether it could happen that china will switch from the supply of such technological goods to a certain extent to the direct supply of military goods to russia, that is, weapons, is china ready to go...

actually to such actions, it seems to me that on today, china is not ready for such a thing, because it will be connected with a serious complication of relations with the united states of america and with the european union, it will be something that has crossed the red line, but still that is why, or rather, blinken , and other european leaders are talking about inadmissibility of this aid, for today. this is a preventive conversation for china, so that he does not do this, for now, for now, we will think that china is enough, and his personal interests are in the american market, in western technologies and in the desire to keep moderate relations with the west after all the world, with the americans, as well as certain personal risks, they will be such a serious

deterrent, and the plus is obvious. it can be seen that it is also important that the world is really now feeling the negative consequences of this war, and china is among those countries that, as we see, are interested in the conflict to stop, it is another matter, we have already discussed on what terms, they are not pro-ukrainian, unfortunately, nevertheless, discomfort from the conflict, and china, in particular, emphasized that... because he said after the visit that many countries that are friends with russia are not satisfied with this war, they are not satisfied with this war, obviously because of the global consequences, because of the impact on the economy and because of the general situation in the world. what do you think is the rivalry between the united states and china in asian-texas region, how does it affect all of this?