together, by the way, with russian children and also together with children from the occupied territories for already 10 years, unfortunately, in such a collective the russian federation, using specially methodologically developed materials, organizes russification, political indoctrination, i.e. washing the cities, so that the children become loyal to the russian federation as an aggressor state and the militarization of these children, and just recently, from fresh information, children who were taken to the territory of belarus. from the occupied kherson region, this happened, they arrived yesterday, and they were taken out four days ago, that is, such a long road, and here is one of the girls, small, 8 years old, she said that she knew how to use weapons, that they were taught, they were shown there, how and what is this or that rifle intended for, and of course the fact is that there a belarusian propaganda journalist said that these are children's fantasies, but i would not be so sure, because seeing them... informal

education, all these youth armies, the movements of the first and the program re-education in these children's camps, we can believe the girl who really is now claims that there is an understanding of weapons, at the age of 8, i clearly understand that russia is actually training janissaries, yes, it is training new soldiers for itself, it seeks to strengthen its own mobilization reserves in this way, but in... we have to emphasize this , to weaken ours, and this actually explains why there is such a large number of young men aged 14-17 among the deported children, it is this group that is the most numerous among the children who were forcibly handed over to russian families, that is , the only intention was that they would not serve in the armed forces of ukraine after coming of age, but even so, after the process of re-education, re-flashing, eradicating identity, they themselves would want to join... the armed forces of the russian

federation. in 2022, the so-called children's shoemaker of the russian federation lviv-bilov, and i will remind our viewers that she is, according to the investigators of the international criminal court , an accomplice of the dictator putin in the kidnapping of children. she adopted a ukrainian boy. what do you know about how widespread this practice is now in russia? so, i'm here right now, because if the team lvov and bilova will watch our interview, we understand the difference between adoption and guardianship, and indeed, from the documents we saw, maria lvova-bilova established guardianship over philip holovnaya, a boy deported from mariupol, in april of this year. namely, on april 4, philip will turn 18 years old, so unfortunately, we predict... that,

knowing lvova bilova, she will want to have another child, perhaps, in order to fuel this propaganda and encourage more and more russians, take to families of ukrainian children, because unlike what russia broadcasts on the global stage, that it is like the process of handing over for guardianship, and not for adoption, as they say, ukrainian children after the start of the full-scale invasion lasted only until october 2022, this is all a delusion and not true, we documented cases when the russians... transferred ukrainian children to their families and in december 2023, the process is ongoing, what we know about these families, they are mostly really so -called resource families, that is , russian children are also under their care from russian orphanages, often these are children who have disabilities, often these are really large family groups, and among these children there are now deported ukrainian minors, who are their parents, this is rather obscure information, but putin and lviv bilov do it.

of the ukrainian nation by the hands of teachers, i.e. mostly among these families, among such a professional segment - they are teachers, because they are easy to control, on the one hand, you control them through guardianship and guardianship bodies, because they are resource families, and on the other hand, through directors schools, these their glorious districts, the ministry of education and so on, that is, these people are absolutely so enslaved, this does not remove the issue of their further responsibility, but for our understanding, they did not decide anything there, and all as one, even to the russian propaganda media, testify that they were called by the authorities guardianship or the ministry of social policy, said: children are coming from donbas, that is, children, and we have documented, came from vidusil, including, for example, from the occupied kherson region, they called them children of donbas and handed them under custody, but the situation is even worse if we look at the territories occupied since 2014, because then the russian federation did not invent. there are some temporary guardianships,

other forms of transfer to the family form of upbringing, that is, they were immediately given up for adoption, and now we see how children who were deported in a one-year-old yard. at the age of 10, they spent 10 years in a russian family, and they do not even suspect that they are from the territory of the crimean peninsula, that they are not the native children of these parents, and live there for themselves, become the letter z and speak russian patriotic poems about a special military operation, this is how the international community's complete disregard for this crime for 10 years works, and this is that the response, unfortunately, is so decisive in the form of warrants ... for arrest, it was appropriate, and we congratulations, but this is not enough to eliminate the long-term consequences of such policies and such illegal actions. now we are talking about all this brainwashing, about the assimilation of ukrainian

children, and a terrible thought arises, a terrible question, if it is possible to return these children to ukraine, will they want this? this is a question that needs to be clarified, because if they testify on camera in russia that they do not want to return, or immediately after returning, due to the fact that they were traumatized, re- traumatized, even during repatriation, they will say that something is wrong here, it does not mean that they actually think so and that this is their position, that is, children should undergo psychological rehabilitation, children should have a special reintegration program and obviously a support program, we are not talking about... that each of them needs to give out, as russia does, apartments, cars and pay huge sums of money, because it will at least be unfair to other children who have suffered from the armed conflict, but asks and we do not want to buy these children, like russia ultimately, the federation wants, we want

these children to remain ukrainian citizens, to have this ukrainian identity, which you can never actually buy, that is, the russian strategy works as long as they have money, when the money runs out, the children will pack their bags. and will turn back, because what we see and what we observe, at least for a group of teenage children, are not so simple and not so effective, there are even russian manipulation strategies that have been tested for many years, probably from the soviet union, and therefore , for example, now maria lvova bilova started such a new initiative from february 2024, when not only children, but also members of their families go to re-education camps, that is... it is probably calculated, they will go there first for such demonstrativeness, persons loyal to the russians, but then those who do not want to obey president putin will be forcibly dragged there and forcibly reeducated. there is such a two-way influence here, by re-educating children they want to influence

disloyal families, and by looking for some loyal members of this family, they try to eradicate the identity of children, because unfortunately, sometimes we record such cases when a child... does not want to go to russia, when the child does not want a russian passport, and she is only waiting for how to escape from the occupied territory, for example, or from the territory of the russian federation, and here i am joining some of my relatives here, but i am one of the parents, or , for example, a grandmother or an aunt who, receiving certain benefits from russia for raising this child, are resisting. i would like to emphasize here that this is in no way depriving this child of the right to preserve his identity and return. to the territory ultimately under the control of the state of citizenship, and if such persons resist this, they will be accomplices of russian crimes, and therefore one should think twice before giving one's child send to re-education camps, or to russian schools, if such a choice still

remains. russian propaganda actually claims that ukrainian children who were returned to the unoccupied part of ukraine, that they are not. they allegedly want to return to russia, but isn't this a warning sign that russia may refuse to return them at all? i want to explain this situation, because they simply cut out a part of the ukrainian airwaves, disturbed it there and talk about the fact that even ukrainian human rights activists claim that the russian federation is better cares about ukrainian children than ukraine, this is a delusion, the cases when someone... happened on the territory of the russian federation from ukraine, they are single, that is, among 388 children, maybe there is someone there alone, and if we look at his personal history, we will see that there are relatives in the territory of the russian federation, that maybe there were some objective reasons why the child went there, maybe she

did not return there to her permanent place of residence, therefore, first of all, this requires additional clarifications. secondly, the fact that the russian federation for some reason took it upon itself head that ukraine does not take good care of... we see that now in connection with the significant attention of the international community to the crime of deportation, as well as in connection with the fact that new and new initiatives are being created for the return of ukrainian children. their rehabilitation, these returned children are doing quite well, so we still need to meet their individual needs, particularly in terms of bridging the educational gap, in terms of psychological rehabilitation, again i mentioned reintegration, but these children are not beg, these children are in family forms of education or study in our educational institutions, i.e. this is allowed by ukrainian legislation and are in other forms of guardianship, these children have certain payments, these children have posts... the support of such a social worker from the state, i.e. no everything is as bad as the russian

federation here wants to pretend to be, and i will only emphasize that now, not governmental organizations, but the state, are trying to improve the situation of all children affected by the armed conflict, and therefore there will be special support programs, and there will be a special program of psychological rehabilitation, but we must understand that these are, unfortunately, such things... which require a certain amount of time for preparation, you cannot organize it in one day. the russian federation has been preparing for the deportation of ukrainian children for years. ms. kateryna, i know that you often visit abroad and communicate with our international partners, in particular, last year in november you communicated with un delegations and, if i am not mistaken, conveyed to them the concept of a single mechanism for the return of small children ukrainian actually, to begin with, tell me what this concept is, and then i would like to know

your observations and your conclusions about how determined and ready our international partners are to help in the return of children, or is this just another set of concerns? and the team of the regional human rights center in early 2023 conducted such a global enough study. we have studied the experience of those countries that have faced deportation, the abduction of their children, the experience with regard to identification, with regard to return, rehabilitation and reintegration, we also analyzed existing international standards and international treaties in order to adapt them to the ukrainian context, but again, on the other hand, not to invent a bicycle, some such mechanism that no one has ever heard of and is unlikely to agree to, and as a result we've come to a pretty obvious one. and maybe for some the scheme, it is quite similar to the one that existed in the grain agreement, when

ukraine and the russian federation, because the children are under its control, and we, unfortunately, without the complete surrender of the russian federation, without it, we will not be able to return the children now, so ukraine and the russian federation must come to an agreement, but this must be done exclusively through a third party, which will not just be an intermediary and transfer some kind of list, as, for example, qatar is doing now, but which will play a role. . the role of the guarantor of the return process, which will also agree on the simplification of the return process and on the reduction of its duration, on the unification of the documents required by the russian federation, as well as precisely predicting the categories of children who ukraine will return what the russian federation is forced to return, that is , there are a lot of functions and roles for this third party, and therefore, returning to the question of whether all these initiatives are not just declarations, we must... understand that canada, the united states america, norway, they returned

the ukrainian children without joy today, all 19 of them, but the russian federation will never agree to their mediation, so we are looking for someone for ourselves, to whom the russian federation will agree, currently it is qatar, yet sometimes there are rumors about the participation of some vatican, but again, the ukrainian side does not confirm this, although the russian side there issued a whole report about... the vatican, there are also certain initiatives from the global south, in particular the republic of south africa, which i also visited , is interested, and this was announced by president ramaphosa, to join the process, effectively join the process of returning ukrainian children, and here we have to understand that this has ceased to be exclusively ukraine's pain, exclusively ukraine's problem, and should probably be decided already, not only for ukraine. now we have the whole... leading role and to develop a return mechanism, exactly the one that is contained in our concept, is it possible

to improve something there, i don't know anymore, it is so refined, you know, but that this mechanism also works for other children who currently suffer in armed conflicts, then the probability of returning ukrainian children also increases, the probability of supporting such a mechanism also increases, and such a weighty thing, which i want to emphasize... it is impossible in one mechanism to combine the return and prosecution of guilty persons, this does not mean that we have to forgive putin and lviv bilov here. deportations, to say that we did not see, it is very good that you returned the children, but it means that in the matter of return, the priority is return, and that the potential written treaty on the mechanism of return may not have a clause about the responsibility of the russian federation, but it again, in no way excludes such responsibility, and arrest warrants, international criminal court after return

ukrainian children will definitely not be canceled, as a matter of fact, with regard to this warrant , almost a year has passed since it was issued . , in this episode, the deportation and forced transfer of ukrainian children in our country has been unchanged since march 17, 2023, when the arrest warrants were issued, that is , there are no new suspects, just as there are no additional qualifications, additions to the current arrest warrants, but their... existence is all the same an unprecedented, mega-symbolic event. for the first time in the history of the existence of international criminal law as such, even not only the international criminal court, an arrest warrant is obtained by the current head of a nuclear state during the current rather heated armed conflict, that is, it was a great victory and could not but have an impact. opinions are divided,

including in the ukrainian expert environment, and the russian federation is also obviously divided. that the issuance of arrest warrants only directly complicated the return process, but in order to be as objective as possible, i would rely on statistics here, before issuing warrants for lviv-bilov's arrest , i would publish them, and we will use their data, because they are the same, i will explain what these data are, but let's start of them so, regarding the issuance of arrest warrants, she facilitated the return of five ukrainian children. after the arrest warrants were issued, the number of such children, in her opinion, yes... she contributed to the return of her and moskalkova 94, it is tangible, so a year has also come to march 17, 2023, and for this year only five children, where they contributed there, here a year has passed and it is already 94, that is, the numbers differ, but we at the regional center for human rights, together with our partners sein, from the lemki

institute for the prevention of the crime of genocide, came to the conclusion that even in those cases where they speak , we contributed, we facilitated something there. we have witnesses, that is , victims of abuses by the russian federation, who say: "no, it only interfered with us." that is, the russians put forward new and new conditions, the requirement to pass dna tests, the requirement to pass a polygraph test, numerous long-term interrogations with the federal security service with other russian security forces, some kind of compulsion to undress and then be burned there to tell how they are making the russian federation solely for the sole purpose of then using this... recording against these people and manipulating them, that is, even in these cases the russian federation did not contribute, but the return process intensified, and we see a change in the narrative: during 2022, maria lvova byulova told everywhere that president putin said to eliminate provolochka in the legislation, to provide everyone russian citizenship, transferring ukrainian children even with ukrainian

citizenship to russian families, well, there was such a thing, you can't get the words out of the song, this is their conversation on march 9, 2022. already in the conversation on february 16, it was the day before the arrest warrants were issued, she talked a little about the transfer of ukrainian children to their families, about the fact that she took the child herself, but it was already clear that they suspected something, because the international community preparations had already begun, they knew that we were gathering evidence, the first children were returning on their own, and already 17 there was a great lull in march, they were there preparing what they would comment on, march 17, march 17 of the 23rd year, the 23rd. issuance of arrest warrants, they lingered there, lingered, then began to come out with a statement, maria lvova-bilova, these are her words, that president putin gave an order to facilitate the reunification of families, they do not speak, they do not use the word return anywhere, because if they say return, then it turns out that they were moved, it turns out that they were kidnapped, it turns out that they were deported, they say

reunification, as if so neutralizing, some like that, they chose one of the words and... in fact, they manipulate this word reunification somewhat, because biological families can be reunited, but as for orphans, especially if they have lost their legal guardian, it will be much more difficult, and they understand this and do not want to return such children, but less so, if we summarize this long excursion, i will not abuse, the situation has moved from a dead point, and now we are already talking about some international initiatives, we are accumulating international support. .. friendship and we are planning, we are not just dreaming, we are planning to return thousands of ukrainian children in 2024, and i think that this is a significant merit of the arrest warrants. and... ms. kateryna, on march 13 this year , a debate was held in the european parliament regarding the creation of a legal mechanism for the return of young ukrainians to

their homeland. how can the european parliament influence this at all? i would say that this is a logical process of continuation, or even addition , of what is happening at the level of the council of europe. on january 25 of this year, a resolution was adopted, where it is also emphasized that... it is necessary to create a single, transparent, understandable, legal mechanism for the identification and return of ukrainian children. yes, indeed, the european union cannot be that third party, because the russian federation will not agree to it, and they cannot physically go there to return the children. but this is only one aspect of a larger mechanism. others are the identification of children, and here the european union with its powers, including those related to software. provision, intelligence, they can us help. then there is the issue of rehabilitation and reintegration, here they can help both with expertise and financially, as well as

with the organization of certain processes for ukrainian children. i would like to emphasize that a significant prerequisite for the return of deported ukrainian children is simply a must have, without it it will not happen, it is the reform of deinstitutionalization, that is, until we have a register of adoptive parents, until we have... a queue, but it is already forming, because here, you know, so that there are no cuts later, the queue of adoptive parents is already forming, and i you people who are ready to take in deported ukrainian orphans and children deprived of parental care, and it will happen, but we need a big, important reform so that no more children stay here in these soviet-style barracks, i won't even call it an orphanage, because 200-400 people in one territory, it is more like... a colony of strict regime, and not a children's institution, we have to get rid of this, and this is supported by the leadership of our state, and this is a mandatory condition, by the way, and of our european integration, that's why all of them

the processes are taking place in parallel, the european union can definitely help in some of them, it can support ukraine in others, and finally, the european union has a huge system of treaties with the states of the global south. they quite successfully used this system of foreign trade agreements. agreements, preferential agreements, in order to avoid unrest within the states of the global south. now they can try to somehow use trade and economic mechanisms there, so that these states, at least, join the coalition for the return of ukrainian children, and it would be desirable for one of them, either collectively or individually, to mediate on this side in relations with the russian federation. by the way, regarding intermediaries, speaking. about countries that can be guarantors, maybe it is worth considering countries that can have some influence on russia, in particular, for example, china, was

the issue of joining this country not discussed? that's a very good question and i'm sure it's been discussed, although i don't have that information because it it is as logical as possible, that is, i think that our state started with two candidates, this is turkey, which already... was a third party, quite successful, which now promotes the return of ukrainian prisoners of war, and probably china. i will not comment on the political and diplomatic position of china, because i think that my opinion is not mainstream, you know, i don't want to expose myself to criticism too many times, but i am sure that china will not be a third party, and therefore we need to look for someone else. but you are absolutely right, it must be a state that is in certain relations with the russian federation, well, not to be on equal footing. and not that it is already from above, because china refused, but at least to be able to somehow influence the russian federation and the return of a significant number of children, because

you know, when they say to me, the return of 11 children is the largest group, it is a great victory, i i am happy, because every child is important who crosses the ukrainian border in the direction of ukraine, but 11 children is very few, at such rates we have no chance to return all of them within even one decade, so we need such countries that can potentially be further considered and what is currently being worked out, for example, saudi arabia is a pretty good candidate, russia has certain interests in this state and in cooperation with this state, it could be brazil, and by the way, brazil also has such a rather ambiguous position towards the russian full-scale invasion, therefore, in principle, it can be a candidate for negotiations for the russian federation, and at the same time we mention the brics, at the same time we are with granted that brazil is a large catholic country, and we have heard about the role of the vatican in the return of civilians, that is, if the stars align, it could be

kazakhstan, because... it's not a well -known thing now, but kazakhstan is a recognized country, at least by the un, by unicef, which has great identification practices of abducted children in the context of idols, in the context of the abduction of children who were in various camps that kazakhstan then repatriated them from syria and iraq. it is a great country in terms of rehabilitation and reintegration of such children, and kazakhstan has some relations with the russian federation as well. and in fact, i already mentioned the south african republic, which is also a member of brics, although we remember that putin did not go to the summit in this country due to an arrest warrant, he did not risk it, although you know, this does not mean that he did not go anywhere , during the 23rd year, after the issuance of arrest warrants, he still traveled, and traveled to that state, by the way, which you and i are mentioning today as possible mediators, that is, there is a certain

potential here. the states that i named, to dream that it will be one of our states satellites, our partners, or from countries with a recognized reputation in the field of protection of children's rights, such as canada, unfortunately, this is not possible, because the russian federation will simply take a stand. mrs. kateryna, finally, i would like to ask you about the number of children who have been returned, and do you know whether there are plans to return ukrainian little children in the near future. so, as of today, according to official information, 388 children have been returned. you could hear a higher number, it could be a number over 500 children, she is also mentioned, but this is together with those children who were reunited with relatives, because they were separated due to russian aggression, these children mostly returned from the occupied territories, but the number of returned, deported and forcibly displaced children

exactly 300. 88 and, unfortunately, it is very small. ukraine is planning and preparing, because i don't like the word plan, you know, you can plan whatever you want, but preparing is already about something concrete, returning more children, and we are talking about a hundred children, we are talking about thousands children, because no matter how much we talk about the number to believe or not to believe, we had and still have and continue to have registers of status children, children and children deprived of parental care , so we understand well... , who were deported from the kherson children's home, who were deported from oleshki, who were deported from the border areas to the so-called dnrtlr, newly occupied territories of ukraine, this is all well known, not secret information for ukraine, so we have a list of children with whom we can work and which can be returned, there are many preparatory tasks, i am again mentioning this reform of deinstitutionalization, because if the children are of status, they can only be returned to their families, and ukraine is creating

all the grounds for... in order to return these children, so i would she didn't make a big romance here and didn't tell us that everything is really, really good here, and we will return all 1900 children tomorrow, no, tomorrow, in order to return all of them, it will be such a difficult situation and a very big challenge, or ukraine will handle it, ukraine he will cope with it, but is it about this and are there any plans for such a thing, no, no, now, unfortunately, the mechanism is preserved. as it was , that is, if through qatar, then we transfer a certain list, and together with all accompanying documents from parents, from guardians, the russian federation sits there for one, two or three months, even they themselves talk about it, examines this list, i don’t know what she ’s doing there, she’s reading it word by word, i really honestly don’t understand that it takes so long to check the documents for a maximum of 11 children, and then the process of physical

return takes place. the mechanism will work like this for the time being, a single legal mechanism has not yet been created, but i am convinced that more children will return in 2024. well, let's hope so. mrs. kateryna, i thank you very much for an incredible professional conversation, kateryna rashevska, a lawyer of the regional center for human rights, was a guest with us, and the audience, stay with us. today i will start the program with the amazing story of six-year-old sofiyka golynska. the girl lived with her mother in odesa.