ukraine's future is in nato, the secretary general of the alliance and western leaders repeat about it, but what is the future of nato itself, how is nato actually arming itself. is being rebooted due to russia's aggression and what help is it promising to ukraine? we are talking about this on the bbc live from london. i am yevgenia shytlovska. nato says they understand that ukraine needs more weapons. they promise support, and long-term support. these are the results of the meeting of representatives of nato countries, ministers of foreign affairs, alliance countries gathered in brussels, when nato celebrates its 75th anniversary. of course, there were also celebrations.

but behind all this, behind all the celebrations , there is a key challenge facing the alliance. therefore, russia needs to strengthen its defense capabilities, especially on the eastern flank. and yes, there was a cake to celebrate. nato countries are ready to take on more obligations to help ukraine in the war with russia. what exactly do they promise? the bbc's jonathan beale followed all the announcements in brussels. the attention of the participants of this meeting is focused on... in two aspects: first of all, it is directly ukraine, and even jens stoltenberg noted that ukraine has enough courage, but is running out of ammunition, so what they can do now, as well as in the long term, in particular, is what is also called a plan in case of trump's victory, because if he becomes president and stopped supporting ukraine, this would lead to huge problems for ukraine, so european allies have to step up, so jens... stoltenberg is now

considering the creation of a special five-year fund of 100 billion euros for further long-term financing military support to ukraine, as well as taking over the current responsibilities of the united states to coordinate the supply of arms and ammunition to ukraine. it's what's also called ramstein, but for nato to take on that responsibility and also to help coordinate the military exercises that are now taking place in... different countries, including great britain. therefore, attention is focused on this. we are not talking about making a decision, these issues are still to be discussed. and later, at the nato summit to be held in washington, 75 years ago, it was signed there north atlantic treaty. so there is hope that at that meeting in july they will be able to agree on a long-term plan to support ukraine. this is their plan. and actually this is the principle. document:

the north atlantic treaty, by which nato was created on this very day, april 4, 1949, in washington, and now this document is displayed in the headquarters of the alliance in brussels, and it is in this document that the fifth article is written: an attack on one member of the alliance is an attack on everyone, this is the basis of nato, the basis of nato's collective defense. what is nato? defensive a military-political alliance in which there were 12 countries at the beginning, now... 32 newcomers are sweden and finland, they joined after russia launched a full-scale war against ukraine, before that they were neutral. ukraine also wants to join nato, and representatives of the alliance say it will happen, but when? this is what the us secretary of state antony blinken said about the prospect of ukraine's membership in nato. ukraine will become a member of nato. our goal at the summit is to help build a bridge to membership and create. the way

to move ukraine forward. this is about prospects of ukraine's membership in nato, but what ukraine needs already is this weaponry, and this was repeatedly stated by the minister of foreign affairs dmytro kuleba in brussels. i would hate to spoil nato's birthday, but i am forced to speak on behalf of ukrainians about russian air attacks on my country. about the destruction of our energy system, our economy, murder. to civilians, and i called on the allies today to provide ukraine with new additional air defense systems. well, such requests were later answered by the general secretary nato jen stoltenberg said: allies feel the urgency of ukraine's need to strengthen air defense and are looking for resources. and we are in touch with the director of the security studies program of the analytical center ukrainian prism, hanna shelest. welcome to the air, that's ukraine. received at this

meeting with representatives of nato countries, what are the key results? well, for now we can't talk about the results, they are stretched in time, we will wait. yet the july summit, but certainly what we have already seen is a change in the rhetoric on provision additional patriot systems for ukraine, what german representatives and representatives of ukraine talked about, that already in some nato countries these systems are extremely important for ukraine, taking into account all these attacks against critical infrastructure and civilian objects of ukraine in recent weeks . in addition, we have heard enough about the possibility of creation. of the new defense fund, the sum of 100 billion was called. this is still a very raw idea, because we have not heard of it before, we see different positions of the member countries, why do we say that there can be a long-term effect, i i think that we will know more already in july, and of course, mediated about ukraine

by colossus and pro-alliance at the same time, it is the calls of the polish side to its allies to increase the defense budgets from the possible 2%, which they constantly talk about. in the alliance to 3%, actually emphasizing the importance of defense spending, which is at the moment, well, this meeting is really a meeting of foreign ministers of the country, it was actually a preparation for the july nato summit in washington, but did it become clearer what ukraine will get there, what kind of bridge is this, about who said blinken, a bridge to membership in nato? you know, it's a mystery at the moment, and i'm afraid that from... the same as in vilnius, that until the last moment when everyone signs the final declaration, we won't know the details of what will happen there . from what we know from other conversations, around the summit with our colleagues and at the ministry of foreign affairs and defense of the alliance member countries, that of course no one is ready to extend

an invitation to ukraine for membership now because of the military actions taking place in the east and south, but at the same time everyone understands that it is just an open door formulation. and this is not enough, and this is something that does not satisfy not only ukraine, but also many allies in the alliance, so they are looking for certain formats, someone talks about the german format during the cold war, when part of germany was a member of the alliance, but not before time will unite there, or some unique ukrainian option, but they are looking for new formats, how to raise the status of ukraine from just a partner, but it is not yet an ally. and ot... statements that nato will take more part in the coordination of aid to ukraine, what does this mean, nato expands the ramstein format, complements the ramstein format, replaces it, or is this a defense against the trump factor? well, let 's remember that the ramstein format appeared precisely because at the very beginning in march

, the united states did not want aid to ukraine to be provided under the auspices of nato, they believed that it would be a threat and the possibility of escalation... russian federation, so they created this rammstein format, as if independent. at the moment, due to trump's policy and what is happening in the united states, european partners are afraid that the aid to ukraine will not become hostage to the situation inside the united states, and have started talking in the last month that after all, now is the time to finally take away this coordinating role from the united states within the framework of ramstein and transfer it under the auspices of the alliance. will it happen? this is another issue, plus there is a lot to be determined here, how other partners who are not nato members will react to this, because at the moment we have 32 a member of the alliance, but more than 50 countries are part of the rammstein format and participate in these meetings, so of course there is a certain

factor here, how these asian countries, american countries will react to this. anna shelest, stay in touch with us, let's talk more about money, as already mentioned... nato is considering the possibility of creating a fund to support ukraine of 100 billion dollars for 5 years of military aid, but these are only proposals that the media wrote about, specifics were not announced at the meeting in brussels, but at the meeting in brussels raised another question, namely how much nato members spend on defense, 10 years ago they agreed to spend 2% of gdp each, but they do it for all countries and yes, poland calls for spending 3% of gdp, but if nato wants to be ready for. .. of russia, then military spending should be much higher, according to the former commander of the united forces , richard behrens. let's listen. every year, while the war continues, ukraine needs 40 billion dollars. let's say it's 5 years. the country still needs an additional 40 billion in order to

to cover the costs of medicine, education and other public sector costs. this may seem like a lot, but if you compare it with the western economy, which is about 30. dollars per year, then western countries can afford it, it is a matter of leadership and mobilization of forces. nato has already announced that it plans to transform and introduce a new strategic concept. to go back to what they call deterrence by deterrence, meaning they're telling russia outright, leave us alone, it's going to cost money, but one of the key lessons it's taught us ukraine - deterrence is much better than starting a war, just look at the price ukraine is paying. nato currently faces several problems: first, the united states says it intends to do less, meaning nato will need to find more money. confrontation with russia, which again means a return to the concept of deterrence by prevention, and for this

they need more money, and nato begins this process with armed forces that are far from the same after the cold war, and this can be to explain, however, such an approach is no longer acceptable. and finally, technology changes. we are not talking about restoring the old nato, but about creating a modern alliance that will meet the demands of the new digital age. and this also requires both money and time. the west definitely has the technical and military power to do this, but the problem here is something else. do our political leaders understand the problem and will they be able to mobilize at a time when our economy is not in the best shape. and columnist hanna sheles is in touch with us. western leaders here, they will be able to mobilize and spend more on defense and thus strengthen nato. to talk about all 32. gins are members of the alliance, and this is due to many reasons, indeed, this is more than ten years

of such a dialogue in the middle of the alliance, because first of all , these 22%, there was a rule of 2% from wua, of which 20% should be used for development, not just for feeding the armed forces, then someone said that, okay, 2% of the gdp of britain or germany is certainly not the same as 2%. from slovakia, and therefore the same germany always said: "wait, we spend anyway at the moment , we have seen that over the past two years, many countries have suddenly returned to their promises and started to increase these numbers, they have already reached two, some even exceeded the limit of 2%. but the question arose for many of these countries, what exactly should this money be spent on? for many of them, it is now important to reform their own armed forces, to prepare for possible aggression or a possible european war, because aid to ukraine and

the need to provide aid to ukraine forced them to conduct an audit inside their own armed forces, and unfortunately, for some countries, these were very disappointing conclusions, and therefore now this discussion can cause, well, let's say so, within the parliaments of their national countries, well, more support, if you can say so, because it is already said that that it is not to help ukraine, but to help. and reforming one's own state, one's own armed forces. and finally, what is the current level of support for ukraine from nato member countries, is it the maximum that the members of the alliance can do, or can they do more, taking into account all the challenges, which ones did you mention? well, let's not forget that 90% of the member countries of the alliance are also members of the european union, so when we hear about how much sweden has provided there. "norway or great britain, how much

the european union allocates now, it actually tells about how much the alliance gives, because the alliance itself does not have many opportunities, in any case, it is the money of the member countries and what they give, according to the alliance, the primary role and the role of finding those capabilities and opportunities that should be provided to ukraine. thank you, hanna sheles, director of security programs of the foreign policy council, ukrainian prism, was in touch with us". well, this is the end of our issue, read more news on our website bbc.ua and subscribe to our pages on social networks, and if you suddenly missed our issue on the air, then you can watch it on our youtube channel, bbc news ukraine. see you tomorrow.

welcome to espresso tv channel, this is the project of great lviv, we work on the largest discussion platform of our country, but we start our broadcast with a conversation with vitaly portnikov, glory to ukraine, to all viewers of the espresso tv channel, and congratulations, on our broadcast, we are also watched by velikiy lviv on the youtube channel, we started there a little earlier, we are already broadcasting, there is a question for our guest, i i will just redirect one of them, they are looking at us, occupied luhansk welcomes us, we are pleased

with portnikovo's question, in his opinion, nato is so afraid of mordor that it is afraid to invite us to the alliance, isn't that... isn't that their weakness? i believe that this is an objective nuclear fear war, but it is there, you can't do anything about it here. i'm sure that this creates opportunities for vladimir putin that he shouldn't have, that putin, by and large , is bluffing with nuclear weapons more than he is willing to use them, even more. i believe that if russia could risk striking a non-nuclear state with... nuclear weapons, then definitely what russia will never do is strike at nuclear states. this, by the way, is what president macron said when he heard putin's threats, well, they threaten us with nuclear weapons, well, we have them too. you see, the question is not how many nuclear weapons, relatively speaking, french nuclear weapons will be enough for russian problems, and putin understands this very well, so he will never do this in his life. i believe that the way to

end this war is to invite ukraine to nato, at least to the localities. of this war, and the idea is to simply continue to fear the nuclear threat, this is a direct path to the continuation of this war for an unknown number of years. if we talk about our plans, in relation to ukrainian plans society, regarding how the war can end, recently a sociological group published a rather interesting rating, according to my data, 45 ukrainians believe that after the end. that they had during the declaration of independence in 1991, well, on the one hand , there seems to be a high percentage of people who believe in it, but roughly speaking, in the 23rd year, in september, 68 of the surveyed respondents thought about it, that is, the curve is decreasing , does

this mean that, after all, president zelenskyi is talking about the fact that... well, in some way, the end of the war can be when ukraine will return to the state before the full-scale invasion of the russian federation, do you think society is ready for unpleasant compromises? first of all , i emphasize once again that i do not believe in any unpleasant compromises, because i believe that russia is not going to make any compromises with us, and i constantly urge you to stop considering the negotiated process as some kind of process in which. we have to agree to something, as if we are deciding when these negotiations will begin, it is not so. russia does not want any negotiations, it did not want them even when it was losing territories, she does not want them now, when she hopes that she will hold the captured and capture some more. this war can end without any negotiations. by the way, i belong to those people who are sure that the ukrainian state

will exist within its internationally defined borders. i just don't know when it will... happen, because i remember that, say, the statehood of the baltic countries, occupied by the soviet union in 1940, was restored only after 50 years, and i look at it in the framework of such a historical distances, will ukraine be internationally integral within the framework of international law to exist, yes, will i see this in my lifetime, even if i live there for many years, i may not see it, moreover, most people who are now watching this broadcast may not see it in their lifetime life, like most people who lived in... in latvia or lithuania or estonia in the 40th year did not see the restoration of their independence, but their children came with their passports of restored citizens of latvia, lithuania and estonia. this will be the case with all those occupied by russia territories it may be so in ten years, or even earlier. i don't know that. but i say once again, i do not believe that ukrainian society

should prepare for compromises. first of all, ukrainian society should prepare for the fact that this war may not end in principle. in the coming years, and the second is that it can end without any compromises, de facto, just where the armies will stand, some kind of truce can be concluded with the participation of mediators, simply because both countries, which are turning into a territory of misery both, because this is a tragedy and it will not only be for us, it will also be a tragedy for the russians, the more war there is, the more the war will move to russian territory, some objects will be destroyed, people will die, this territory.. . the whole can become a territory of hopelessness for russia, ukraine and belarus, the whole, and it can end precisely because both sides will no longer have the strength to continue the war, that they will be forced to stop, not just to restore... strength, but just to recover somehow, well at least to recover demographically, well, you will understand that we are in a difficult demographic situation with you, not because people are leaving and may not return if this

continues for years, but because we are forced to reduce the term of conscription, and we have people who are 20, 25 years old there are four times less than people who are 40 years old, and if these people do not have children and they die on the fronts, no one will be born to them anymore, in a situation where we have... so few are born, so you and i are getting closer to a big demographic pit, but the russians will also get closer to it, because if they keep throwing their citizens as cannon fodder, eventually the representatives of the national republics will run out, the russians themselves will die, and russia will also be with us, we are one here boat, with russia, not the west, with russia, will enter a situation of demographic hopelessness, despite the fact that the russian population is already decreasing, in fact both peoples... both the people of the aggressor country and the ukrainian people have become hostages of president putin's adventure. tragedy awaits both peoples, this too must

always be remembered, because when the second world war happened, not only the soviet people had a tragedy, not only the russians, the ukrainians, or not only the french or the british, the germans also had a great a tragedy from which they later came out through incredible efforts, including a great demographic tragedy, so... we must always remember that this is all that we are with you, not only we are with you, but also the country that attacked us, is on the threshold of the abyss, and that is why it is so important that the west also realized that, well, the sooner it ends, on the conditions that will allow the ukrainian state to exist, because the important thing is that in order to restore the borders, a state is needed, as i said, the more chances that they will save not only ukraine, but they will give a chance... for the future and for russia as well, which they are so afraid of, and that's all. vitaly portnikov, journalist, publicist, was a guest of our studio,

our viewers write many good topics and even questions in the comments, but we have to let mr. vitaly go, our guests are in great the studios are already waiting for us, but we will definitely record these questions, we will return to them, they will be relevant next week 100%. exactly 5 years ago, for the first time... on the air , the project has been talking about great lviv for 5 years, including with the viewers of the tv channel, while we are moving to the great studio, to the discussion with our guests, i suggest you remember those moments, the most memorable moments of the projects says velikiy lviv. in fact, everything was like in a different life, it started before kovid, before a full-scale invasion, in completely different reality, nice, i think it will be a nice flashback. congratulations to everyone in the new project of the inta tv channel lviv. elections are on the horizon. lviv oblast is stable in its preferences, it upholds national democratic values. i'm not going to move to moscow, and i don't want anyone to move me there. if you don't

like it, i can get up and leave, you can get up and leave, i'll tell you honestly. a swindler and a manipulator. look, i have a liar and a manipulator. sir, you have not fought, i will ask you. and after the end of the transfer to it made propaganda for moscow. the corridor of shame, the russian language in ukraine is the language of occupation, it is the language of blood, it is the language of the destruction of ukraine, it is the language of genocide, ukraine should be ukrainian, and how do you see it, kalska, carol, open the gates, open the gates, now we symbolically, in order not to injure our viewers, let's try to break the skull of this executioner of the ukrainian people. this is the largest event venue in ukraine, we welcome our audience, all our guests, we traditionally work in quarantine mode, we do not have an audience in the studio, we wear masks, we live in

at a historical moment when the russian federation can at any moment be ready to attack both kyiv and the entire statehood of ukraine, and then it was ready to shoot, and this caused such a furore, the full invasion of the russian federation into us. under putin's leadership in ukraine, our armed forces are successfully developing small counteroffensives in almost all operational directions. the task of this horde is the destruction of our country, you just have to fight and anything will happen. we busted some very important myths during this one war, which ultimately determines the course of this war and its further development and, most importantly , what will come after. if someone thinks that the war is over and victory is already on our side, this is a big mistake. they will not come as long as we have democracy and they have fascism, then we are at war, says the great lviv - the biggest discussion platform of our

country right now. from the history of ukraine, in fact, for the first time i saw this plot, now on the air, some people whom we expelled from our first airs for anti-ukrainian position are already behind bars, some escaped from of ukraine, this is about kotsaba, if we are talking about which is also in our studio, let's say so. well, i think that history has made everyone gray, rightly so, and they criticized and expelled, well, then there was a full-scale invasion, really, about which, about which we were hinted, including iryna farion, who said that the russian language is the language of the occupation, and we now we understand it, unfortunately, much more clearly, we welcome guests to our studio, andriy hnatosh, captain, zsu, serviceman, good evening, andriy sharaskin is also with us, cyborg, people's

deputy of ukraine, voice. god forbid, congratulations taras batenko, people's deputy of ukraine, head of the parliamentary group for the future. oksana yuranets, people's deputy of ukraine of the eighth convocation, former head of the permanent delegation of ukraine to the nato parliamentary assembly, is with us. evgeny magda, candidate of political sciences, director of the institute of world politics. vitaly pyasetskyi is with us, senior sergeant, deputy chairman of the sergeant's council of the 93rd separate mechanized brigade kholodny yar of the armed forces of ukraine. good evening. as we have people's deputies in the studio, we want to start the conversation with those news that che two days ago , president zelenskyy broke into the information space of our country and signed not a new law on mobilization, but amendments to the previous law, the current law on mobilization, which predicted that the army would now be mobilized from

the age of 25. it used to be from 27, well , the point of limited fitness was taken away, so far it is not completely clear how all these laws will work, how will those who had this limited fitness for nine months come to the higher medical commission, but that is not less, mr. batenko, i have a question for you, our whole state is alive, and it seems to me that even our international partners are alive, they hint to us about it, they live in the context that... that we need to do high-quality, effective mobilization, for this a new law is needed, at the same time, they cannot come to an agreement in the parliament, and in general, it seems to me that even against the background of these conversations, there are rumors that the servants of the people are somehow, well, i want to put it this mildly, no until the end sees his role in ukrainian parliamentarism, well in fact, many people say that today

in ukraine, uh... among the several crises that exist, there is also a parliamentary crisis, probably that the parliamentarians feel it from their point of view, the citizens do not feel it, because the citizens largely do not see it, they don't watch the parliament, they only watch for a moment some individual comments of the deputies, so in fact there is no such parliamentary life in the country, well, it is not visible to a large extent, but in a certain way there is a crisis, because the servants have to be paid, they have to be recognized... it is quite difficult to conduct those or other draft laws, because they have recently been able to mobilize, to a large extent , about 150-170 deputies of their own faction, and therefore, accordingly, they are asking for the support of the entire rest of the hall, the entire rest of the hall, earlier at the beginning of the full-scale invasion, in the first half of the year we generally voted, so to speak, in full a package of consolidated almost

unanimous. pushed all the bills, because they were clearly related to the front, related to the war, and there were no objections actually from anyone, including the former opz. now, of course, not everyone the bills are directly tangential, let's say, to the defense sector, because there are european integration bills, there are other types of bills that relate to the energy, economic component, so it is obvious that a lot has returned. with the desire to push through some or other amendments that may be of interest to certain interested circles, in a word, all this indicates that the parliament does not have unity now, and it is obvious that this is happening in the resulting votes. regarding what you say about the mobile mobilization bill from the 25th, then i want to remind you that the parliament voted this law a year ago, in my memory, exactly like that.