ukraine would become a member of the alliance even before the end of the war. the majority of ukrainians support you and we believe that we are already worthy of being a member of the north atlantic alliance. what, in your opinion , prevents nato from making such a decision and a fateful decision not only for ukraine, but for the whole world? i think the leaders of nato. are struggling with this decision because they are worried, about themselves, and about escalation, but unfortunately, by taking this position, they are only... putin to continue

the war. i think that's what we should do on the contrary we have to send a signal to putin that we will not be stopped, we will not be restrained, and the fact that he will continue the war makes no sense. therefore , i call for ukraine to be accepted into nato while the war continues. do nato, mr. volker, and the western countries currently have a common vision of what ukraine's victory over russia is, and what russia's defeat in the war with ukraine is.

well, first of all, russia's victory over ukraine, i don't think it will happen, i think russia, there is no well-trained army, there is no equipment, it can cause a lot of pain, but i do not think that it will defeat ukraine, in relation to ukraine, victory. i think there is a lot of fear in the west about what it will take to defeat russia, i think putin has already done enough, is there, mr. walker, in your opinion, a time lag that allows the western countries to hold back an aggressive russia from further destruction of the world, that's how much time remains. is it in order to

shake putin's hand and say that putin does not, should not go further, or continue to destroy the world? well, time is very important, we should not doubt and wait for anything. we have send such an ambassador. we will continue to fight, he will continue to try to restore the russian empire while he is in power. steps must be taken to strengthen ukraine and make it clear that russia and putin and his imperial ambitions will never succeed.

we wait, the more people die, yes, mr. volker, because on august 9, 22, in an interview with radio liberty, you stated the following about putin, i will allow myself to quote you, putin has already decided to destroy ukraine as a state, to destroy people he will take what he can take now and continue later, as long as he has this imperialistic mindset, he will not stop. if, mr. volker, it is so obvious that putin wants to destroy ukraine, why do you think the world community is delaying putin, because if we take into account that putin is a terrorist, then they do not negotiate with terrorists, they are simply destroyed, so what? , putin is a terrorist who has nuclear weapons. and the world is afraid that he

will use it, he also has a large army. and if the nato countries start to join the line confrontation with russian troops, this is not desirable. and i will say what i said a year ago. i think we are unrealistically looking at adverbs. if we think that with this mindset we will stop putin's ambitions. he very clearly stated that he wants an imperialist worldview that extends not only to ukraine, but also to the whole of europe, we must oppose him

and his forces. the latest news from russia, mr. volcker, indicates that putin has followed the path of an arms race, that is, next year he will cut military spending and more increase in military spending, he is not going to stop at ukraine and, sanctions do not work, there is no unity in the world regarding putin, how can everything end for the world and first of all for europe? well, first of all, they didn't completely stop russia, but they made the situation much more difficult for her. putin appeals to north korea for weapons.

and a few years ago, everything was completely different. sanctions disrupted the russian economy and changed the lives of russian citizens. so sanctions are really working, what we need to do is fight them avoiding sanctions. we must fight sanctions evasion. and increase our own defense production, because this is not enough for the needs of ukraine, we need to build up this base more, mr. volker,

the united states of america must prepare to be able to repel the nuclear powers of russia and china in 27-35. analysts who prepared a congressional report, a congressional commission of a bipartisan commission on the strategic position of the united states of america, say about this in particular, do these dates mean and what says, what analysts say, that the united states of america should also build up its weapons and join the arms race, as well as the russian federation. yes, we absolutely need to develop our defense base, we are not producing enough weapons at the moment, you mentioned

deterring russia and china at the same time, and the most important thing we can do to stop china is to make sure that putin is stopped in his attacks to ukraine, it will send a signal to china. thank you, mr. volker, this was kurt volker, permanent representative of the united states of the united states in ukraine in 2017-2019. friends, we continue the live broadcast on the espresso tv channel and. on our platforms on youtube and facebook, for those who are watching us live on youtube and facebook right now , you can vote in our poll, today we are asking you about whether the ukrainian government is showing unity today, if you are watching us on youtube, there everything is quite simple, you choose yes, no, or if you are sitting with

a smartphone, a phone, in front of a tv screen, you can call if you you see a demonstration of unity by the ukrainian authorities, vote on the number 0800 381 or 0800 211-382, all calls to these numbers are free, so vote, we are interested to know your opinion, well... next, we have oleksandr khara, a diplomat and foreign and security policy expert of the center for defense strategies. mr. oleksandr, i congratulate you and thank you for joining our broadcast. good evening, mr. sergey, thank you for the invitation. since mr. oleksandr, we and our viewers are asking whether the ukrainian authorities are demonstrating today unity, i will ask you about it, because from the point of view of partnership in the world and in europe, the unity of the ukrainian government allows... to do much more than its absence, so do we now look like a single government, or

does it look like the only government that goes to victory, that prefers victory and , accordingly, leads the ukrainian people, well, you are absolutely right that national unity is one of the most important arguments, both in order to consolidate ukrainian society in the fight against the aggressor, and and in order to to ensure the support of our westerners. partners, well, you know, i will probably answer not from myself, but from the headlines that i literally looked at in the newspaper today, well, today is not a date, but rather an event, in fact, on the hundredth year, one of the most influential diplomats of our century, kissenger, died, here , but if we look at what is being said about ukraine, then there is an article where such a phrase , similar to everything, that the relationship between president zelenskyi and zaluzhny is extremely bad, then there are four headings, the first is that

russia will, will use, means advantage that there is a division among ukrainians, the second is that in the west we are tired of ukraine, the third is that russia has an advantage in the means of electronic warfare and the fourth headline, which looks like ukraine is in a dead end, is meant, i understand, our military actions, that is, this is the answer to your question, how does the world look at ukraine, as perceived by those who read this respectable western publication. the second point, this is for ukrainians, i looked at the public opinion poll of the razunkovo ​​center for september, the level of support for the armed forces of ukraine is off the charts, this 93%, the president of ukraine 72%, as an institution and as a politician.

zelenskyi 75, that is, what does this mean, that there is a lot of trust in the institutions of the president and, most importantly, the armed forces , there is nothing to say about the industrious one, our center of the razunkovo, well, i think, did the right thing in not asking our citizens, because the industrious one is not a politician , here, but this is an indicator of the fact that the level of trust of the institution is headed by such a person, of course, that it is accurate to play political, political struggle with this person. not for the benefit of those who are magicians will try to do this, it will definitely reflect, reflect, reflect back to those who do it, and we saw from the reaction of ukrainian society to the statements of one of the people's deputies, who criticized the military leadership, that they do not have any plans, so it seems to me that it is definitely not a good idea, let's say, to launch these quarrels into the public plane and give the opportunity to our enemies, primarily in the russian federation, to take advantage of this

situation, i think that when the president spoke about maidan 3, russia cannot commit maidan 3, it is absolutely clear, but they will certainly be able and will certainly try to use the existing cracks in, let's say, this unity , it is not in the interest of ukraine now, nor of our partners, who need clear signals to continue supporting ukraine. you mentioned the people. the deputy of ukraine, mr. oleksandr, demanded a plan for the 24th year from zaluzhu, today, in fact, no one mentions it anymore, a few days ago, but two days ago at a meeting, a ministerial meeting in brussels, in the north atlantic alliance , said that they know about ukraine's plans for the 24th year, besides, at the meeting of the ukraine-nato council held in brussels, the alliance highly appreciated those reforms. which are already being implemented in ukraine, at the same time, he outlined

new plans for reforms. kurt volker, who was on the air before you, says that during the war there are no questions, no problems for ukraine to be accepted into the north atlantic alliance, because this will be a marker and an indicator for putin that no one will let him go , and even if putin was there threatened nuclear war or nuclear missiles, no one would care. i will quote kurt walker. i am convinced that today's nato policy inadvertently sends a signal to putin: to continue hostilities, because we say that ukraine will become a member of the ongoing. perspective, but we cannot bring it to nato while the war continues. this is an incentive for putin to continue the war. i really think it's time for us to send the exact opposite message, that ukraine will become a member of nato as soon as possible. this will mean that there will be no way to lose ukraine, then for putin the continuation of this war will be pointless, and for russia it will be destructive.

why do you think, mr. oleksandr, the alliance is delaying the invitation of ukraine to nato. we know that kurt walker was the representative, the united states of america special envoy to nato, and he was the special representative of the united states of america to ukraine in 17-19, and he knows what he's talking about, you know, he's a strong supporter of ukraine, and the fact that i read his article in sep, actually about the fact that he told his idea, it is very argumentatively shows how easy it is. to do this and to what extent we should not expect any escalation of the conventional russian federation on the territory of ukraine, because they are already hitting us with everything they have, and he also said that there will be no nuclear escalation, and in principle his arguments are quite powerful , here, but he is, let's just say, an expert, he's not in the decision-making system, in

the decision-making system is a person like jake saville, that's the national security adviser of the united states. uh, which one showed that from the beginning, more precisely, before the day of the large-scale invasion, he was guided by one reality of how he understood ukraine to be russia, then this reality periodically changed, but so far it had not reached the level where he could actually manage the escalation not passively, that is, afraid, what russia will do, on the contrary, escalate gradually so that russia defends itself, this is the most important moment, because they are afraid of a few. things, the first point is vertical escalation, the possibility of using weapons of mass destruction against the russian federation ukraine or even against someone in some territory, roughly speaking, in the arctic, in order to strengthen its message to the western world, and the second point is the usual horizontal escalation, when russia can

do something against nato member countries, there are the baltic states, poland or possible. romania and then actually the nato bloc will be dragged into this war and this may lead to the escalation of weapons of destruction again. here, this fork, in this fork, he actually forms the strategies that he offers to the owner, the boss, that is, the president of the united states. to move away from such, let's say, understanding, jake salvan cannot, and accordingly, they influence our partners' decision-making in this way. which is on the european identity, that is, it is impossible to overcome, the germans have the same situation, in fact , they are afraid of this escalation, and it seems that this long-term support that they provide and will provide to ukraine should prevent putin from continuing the war, but they very, let's say, they are wrong about authoritarian

regimes and even more so about russian, let's say , politics and the fact that putin will go to the end, they will stop it and the majority of the russian population will support it, and that is why there is no, let’s say, the possibility to somehow influence the russians, that they will oppose protin or vote against him in the so-called elections, that is why we cannot overcome these dilemmas, we have arguments that it won't work, so that it is better to take ukraine as soon as possible, but these arguments unfortunately do not work because of the fact that our, first of all, american and german partners are involved. mr. oleksandr, the ministerial summit started today in skopje of foreign affairs, countries participating in the osce, and lavrov today came under demarche, because he was under boycott, under demarche, under boycott from the ukrainian delegation, from six other, different

countries, i know that the baltic countries joined this demarche. how is it all was in the skopje hall, thank you, mr. acting chairman, mrs. general secretary, colleagues, in a little more than an hour the 50th anniversary of the helsinki final act will be celebrated. can you leave me alone please? thank you. well, he wanted to be left alone. maybe it should have been to leave him alone at all, well, that's the very idea, to invite serhiy lavrov, a person who is a fellow student of putin's aggression against ukraine , to skopje. meeting of the osce, to the osce summit, and the impression is that lavrov came simply to bury this structure, finally, to bury it already, and everything was simply directed at

this, his entire speech and, in general, his arrival there, can it be perceived, his arrival there as an attempt to involve russia in at least some kind of discussion or a last attempt, or was it simply a farewell between... lavov and russia? well, you you know, i absolutely agree, it's a shame that apart from the baltic states and ukraine, who announced before the day of this event that at the ministerial level, they would not participate there, and they made a pretty pretty important argument that russia is actually destroying these instruments, and i would like it, as it seems, litovsky, the minister of foreign affairs, said that we, this organization should work to protect ourselves from russia and act against russia, because it is a threat, unfortunately, they actually gave mr. lavrov an opportunity, a platform to continue this propaganda ,

wars, propaganda of anti-western, let's say, vision of the world and the situation, he actually , after announcing his propaganda speech, gathered from there, that is, those who said that it is very good that with the russians there is a platform where you can talk about controversial issues . since obsee was created in order to solve european security issues, they clearly tried to cover with a fig leaf what is difficult to cover, since he, i lavrov, did not come there for discussions, he actually came to say all these propagandistic things of his and gather from there, of course, that he met with supporters of russia there, there was a meeting with the hungarian minister of foreign affairs and , it seems, the former. who actually said that the platform is very important in order to keep russia there, in fact it was simply necessary not to let this delegation at least at this level, at least this person who is,

let's say, putin's accomplice in the war, and the second point is also important , it does not solve anything, it has been a long time, that is, actually after the large-scale invasion took place, it does not affect the cavity, so what is with it, what can be said to talk to him, what can he do with... do, if he is not an important functionary in that authoritarian system of management of russia, therefore there is no, there was no sense, neither from a moral, nor from a functional point of view, to invite him, by the way, the minister of foreign affairs of germany, anna lena berbock, she said that the russian government is playing a sneaky game to destroy the osce , let's hear what she said, the russian government's sneaky game is and has been to use its brutal war of aggression against ukraine to destroy organizations that rely on peaceful coexistence and cooperation, and we will not allow that to happen.

by creating obstacles, they tried to dry up the osce financially. we countered this with voluntary financial contributions and resources, including from germany. we have allocated 21 million euros until 2023 for the osce. continue to function not only technically, but also to carry out its important work on the ground for the first 300 million people. well, anna lena burbok, mr. oleksandr, said that it seems that what is not being talked about publicly that russia's contribution to international organizations is quite high, both in the osce, and in the un, and in others in unicef, and here the question is that the majority of those who manage these organizations obviously perceive russia as one of financiers of these organizations, but where are the principles, in principle, finance is good

, and the principles, but to shake hands with him, and talk about the fact that russia is a participant, or look for routes there, how the plane with lavrov and zakharova is supposed to fly , because zakharova was not allowed through the territory of bulgaria, so many questions arise. so definitely but you know, in addition to principles, you can also be guided by interests, because the world is arranged like that, sometimes principles can take a back seat, and in this sense, from this point of view, i would say, look, in sbs, well, at first it was the european security council, which later grew into an organization, was an extremely important document of 1975 , the helsinki final act, which said that one cannot interfere in the internal affairs of sovereign states, that forces cannot change borders and so on . when it was signed, mr. bryzhnev, he no longer wanted to spread the revolution, he needed

to fix the borders of the soviet union. now we have the russian federation, which is a rzesian power, that is, it destroys everything that was created from the year 45, and then as a new reality from the year 91. and that is precisely why it makes no sense to even talk with them in such and such platforms, since the essence of russian foreign policy is an absolute contradiction to what was signed by the soviet union, and then russia as the legal successor, which means that it took us upon itself and i already i'm not talking about the rule of law, about means other principles on which international relations are built, so of course it would be better to isolate such a country, not to give the opportunity to engage in propaganda and show that until they return to acceptable behavior in international society, what should they do in such a society, based

there is no sense in the rules, and at least in the principles. and of course, madam minister, she said clear and correct things, she said about funding, and thus in fact, wants to extend the activities of this organization, but by and large, this the organization has survived itself, i am not saying that we need to leave it, but we simply need to rethink what it can do, well, obviously, other organizations can arise in the place of the organization that the united nations organization has already proven over time and we have seen how all these international organizations are reborn, a very short question, a short answer, i hope, mr. alexander, will we not see further rehabilitation of russian politicians and diplomats in international organizations, and will this not become the hand that they stretch

bloody dictator putin, well, i think that russia will try to ... legitimize itself in such formats, but i don't think that as long as this support is for ukraine in terms of, as it is called, how much help is needed, then, let's say, just now it is illogical to invite russia, since it has not changed its behavior, as soon as there are problems on the battlefield, i hope there will not be, at least from our side, as soon as russia is ready, let's say, to end the war, then there will be an opportunity for, let's say, dialogue in different platforms, so far i i think that the event will not go to the opening of this channel, to invite russian diplomats to such forums. thank you, mr. oleksandr, it was the diplomat oleksandr khara, and i remind you, friends, that we are working, we continue to work live on tv channel uso, as well as on our youtube and facebook platforms, today we are conducting a survey, we are asking you about whether

the ukrainian government is demonstrating unity today. let's look at the interim results of the survey, which are available during the telephone survey, so yes, is the ukrainian government demonstrating today unity, 11% think yes , 89% think no, the survey on the youtube channel is also ongoing, yes 14%, 86%, no, we will continue the survey in the second part of the program, which will begin after the release, of our colleagues from bbc. in the second part of the program , we will have maria ionova, andrii osachuk and serhii taran. let's meet literally in 15 minutes, don't switch, the next will be no less interesting.

at the age of 100, the american politician henrik kissinger, the diplomat who changed the world, as he was called, died, we are talking about this today in the bbc ukraine issue. in the studio olga palamaryuk works. he tried to improve relations between china and the united states, and also offered ukraine to give up. from part of his territories in exchange for peace, what legacy does kissinger leave behind? henry kissinger is a diplomat, a genius politician, a controversial and ambiguous figure for many. it was he who managed to achieve a breakthrough in american-chinese relations during the cold war. relieved tensions.